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Author Topic: My "Official" Status with the Roman Catholic Church?  (Read 7508 times) Average Rating: 0
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #90 on: March 27, 2011, 03:39:33 PM »

What sacraments? Are they different from yours?
No

Why are you letting him yank your chain?
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Peter J
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« Reply #91 on: March 27, 2011, 08:12:01 PM »

Suppose an EO couple brings their baby to their local EO priest to be baptized (and chrismated of course), does it follow that the baby is now in full communion with the Oriental Orthodox? (If not, my next question is: does that mean that the baptism is invalid?)

Why Oriental Orthodox?

I don't know what you mean by "Why Oriental Orthodox?" Do you mean that I, a Roman Catholic, am not permitted to ask whether the baby is in full communion with the Oriental Orthodox? Or is it more that you just don't want to answer?

But why do you ask me about it? I know nothing about the Oriental Orthodox teachings.

Ah. In that case, I think you're fellow Orthodox would tell you that your ignorance of certain details of RC teaching isn't your biggest problem. (On the other hand, they might also say that I'm being presumptuous in speaking for them.)
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« Reply #92 on: March 27, 2011, 08:29:45 PM »

So if they are the same they are Catholic sacraments. It would be illogical otherwise.
We do not tend to divide the Sacraments into subcategories. Either it is a Sacrament or it is not. Saying something is a "Catholic Sacrament" does not make sense. Lutheran "Sacraments" are not Sacraments, neither are Anglican "Sacraments." Only those groups who have maintained Apostolic Succession possess Sacraments, and that includes the SSPX and the Eastern Orthodox. Are you really having that much difficulty with the concept or are you doing as Elijahmaria says and just yanking my chain?
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #93 on: March 27, 2011, 08:35:15 PM »

So if they are the same they are Catholic sacraments. It would be illogical otherwise.
We do not tend to divide the Sacraments into subcategories. Either it is a Sacrament or it is not. Saying something is a "Catholic Sacrament" does not make sense. Lutheran "Sacraments" are not Sacraments, neither are Anglican "Sacraments." Only those groups who have maintained Apostolic Succession possess Sacraments, and that includes the SSPX and the Eastern Orthodox. Are you really having that much difficulty with the concept or are you doing as Elijahmaria says and just yanking my chain?

You are a very gentle soul, Wyatt.  Happy to be keeping your company here!

M.
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« Reply #94 on: March 27, 2011, 08:44:16 PM »

So if they are the same they are Catholic sacraments. It would be illogical otherwise.
We do not tend to divide the Sacraments into subcategories. Either it is a Sacrament or it is not. Saying something is a "Catholic Sacrament" does not make sense. Lutheran "Sacraments" are not Sacraments, neither are Anglican "Sacraments." Only those groups who have maintained Apostolic Succession possess Sacraments, and that includes the SSPX and the Eastern Orthodox. Are you really having that much difficulty with the concept or are you doing as Elijahmaria says and just yanking my chain?

You are a very gentle soul, Wyatt.  Happy to be keeping your company here!

M.
Thank you for the kind words.

God bless,

Wyatt
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« Reply #95 on: March 28, 2011, 09:05:00 AM »

We do not tend to divide the Sacraments into subcategories. Either it is a Sacrament or it is not. Saying something is a "Catholic Sacrament" does not make sense.

A Baptism makes a person a member of the Church. I suppose we can agree on this. If you consider our Baptisms valid they make people members of the Church. According to your teachings the Church is the ecclesiastical organisation under Pope Benedict XVI. The result is that according to your Church's teachings our sacraments make people members of your Church.

Where I am wrong?
- Are Orthodox Baptisms invalid?
- Is according to the Vatican 'One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church on Earth' a broader term than Catholic Communion as it also includes EOs, OOs, Nestorians, Lutherans, Old Catholics etc?
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« Reply #96 on: March 28, 2011, 11:51:41 AM »

We do not tend to divide the Sacraments into subcategories. Either it is a Sacrament or it is not. Saying something is a "Catholic Sacrament" does not make sense.

A Baptism makes a person a member of the Church. I suppose we can agree on this. If you consider our Baptisms valid they make people members of the Church. According to your teachings the Church is the ecclesiastical organisation under Pope Benedict XVI. The result is that according to your Church's teachings our sacraments make people members of your Church.

Where I am wrong?
- Are Orthodox Baptisms invalid?
- Is according to the Vatican 'One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church on Earth' a broader term than Catholic Communion as it also includes EOs, OOs, Nestorians, Lutherans, Old Catholics etc?

I really think you should try to learn more about Orthodoxy instead of -- or at least before -- worrying so much about what Catholics believe.
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« Reply #97 on: March 28, 2011, 11:58:43 AM »

But you can't simply answer me, can you?
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #98 on: March 28, 2011, 12:08:29 PM »

But you can't simply answer me, can you?

Of course there is an answer.  There just is not an answer that an exclusionist is going to accept.
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« Reply #99 on: March 28, 2011, 12:13:29 PM »

But you can't simply answer me, can you?
I can.

Where I am wrong?
- Are Orthodox Baptisms invalid?
No.

- Is according to the Vatican 'One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church on Earth' a broader term than Catholic Communion as it also includes EOs, OOs, Nestorians, Lutherans, Old Catholics etc?
We believe ourselves to be the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. When someone is Baptized either by pouring or immersion and with the Trinitarian formula (In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit) that person is Baptized into the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Period. Are they in Full Communion with the Church? No. Do they belong to the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church, by being validly Baptized? Yes.
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« Reply #100 on: March 28, 2011, 12:15:53 PM »

So according to the RCC teachings one can belong to the 'One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church' despite being 'not in Full Communion' with it?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 12:16:13 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #101 on: March 28, 2011, 12:25:00 PM »

So according to the RCC teachings one can belong to the 'One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church' despite being 'not in Full Communion' with it?
Yes. Despite believing we are the One True Church, we also do not believe everyone who is not in Full Communion is automatically damned and excluded from Christ's mercy.
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Peter J
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« Reply #102 on: March 28, 2011, 05:49:23 PM »

But you can't simply answer me, can you?

You're kidding, right?

I answered you, then I asked you a question about Orthodoxy and you pleaded ignorance.
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« Reply #103 on: March 28, 2011, 05:55:27 PM »

I answered you, then I asked you a question about Orthodoxy and you pleaded ignorance.

No, you didn't answered me and you asked me about Oriental Orthodoxy which I consider as close to my Church as you are.
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« Reply #104 on: March 28, 2011, 06:29:10 PM »

Of course there is an answer.  There just is not an answer that an exclusionist is going to accept.
To be quite frank (since it seems like everyone on the other side is), this exclusionist, elitist view is why I am not and will never be Eastern Orthodox. If I wanted to get on my theological high horse and declare everyone else hell bound who doesn't believe exactly as I do I would have remained a holiness Protestant. Thankfully the Catholic Church takes a much less radical and much more charitable approach to those outside the visible Church. Huh...imagine that...a Church that takes a stance not unlike its master. The Pharisees loved to judge and separate themselves from the rest of the world because they were the religious elite, yet Christ hung out with all kinds of sinners.
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« Reply #105 on: March 28, 2011, 06:38:46 PM »

Of course there is an answer.  There just is not an answer that an exclusionist is going to accept.
To be quite frank (since it seems like everyone on the other side is), this exclusionist, elitist view is why I am not and will never be Eastern Orthodox. If I wanted to get on my theological high horse and declare everyone else hell bound who doesn't believe exactly as I do I would have remained a holiness Protestant. Thankfully the Catholic Church takes a much less radical and much more charitable approach to those outside the visible Church. Huh...imagine that...a Church that takes a stance not unlike its master. The Pharisees loved to judge and separate themselves from the rest of the world because they were the religious elite, yet Christ hung out with all kinds of sinners.
Wow, that's not inflammatory or anything.

Catholics don't declare that everyone else is hell bound? I was brought up to believe that people who weren't Catholics WEREN'T TRUE CHRISTIANS. I was brought up with the fear of going to hell because I missed Sunday Mass when I was sick. I'm not even touching the teachings on homosexuality and suicide.

Whether this is the norm or not does not negate that such teachings and superior attitudes exist in the members and maybe even clergy in the Catholic church, as they do for every other denomination.

And I don't want to speak for everyone else, but I'm sure that a lot of members on the board (myself included) don't think that everyone in heaven is just going to be Orthodox.  Roll Eyes

There is a harsh legalistic tone to Orthodoxy, but my my experience with the people shows that people do have room in their hearts for other Christians, regardless of disagreements. Of course on this board, where Catholics and Orthodox alike are posting questions basically baiting the other members, you are going to see an extreme.

ETA: And I have never seen such a questioning of one's own motives and pride as I've seen in this community. At least the people can recognize that they do get on their high horse and be too forceful about their beliefs at times. The opinions here are diverse, and shame on you for branding everyone under one narrow category.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 06:40:44 PM by IsmiLiora » Logged

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« Reply #106 on: March 28, 2011, 06:51:25 PM »

Wow, that's not inflammatory or anything.
Just going by the attitude I have been exposed to since I have been on the forum.

Catholics don't declare that everyone else is hell bound? I was brought up to believe that people who weren't Catholics WEREN'T TRUE CHRISTIANS. I was brought up with the fear of going to hell because I missed Sunday Mass when I was sick. I'm not even touching the teachings on homosexuality and suicide.
Not going to Mass when you are sick or have a legitimate reason is not a sin. As far as homosexuality and suicide...what Catholic teachings are you talking about that so offended you? Specifically, what Catholic teachings are you talking about that are directly contrary to the Eastern Orthodox view on homosexuality and suicide? I was under the impression our Churches were in agreement with our teachings on these topics.

Whether this is the norm or not does not negate that such teachings and superior attitudes exist in the members and maybe even clergy in the Catholic church, as they do for every other denomination.
Perhaps, but I have personally not had any experiences with harsh, judgmental people since I have become Catholic. When I was Protestant I would hear hateful, elitist garbage spewed from pulpits. I witness such hatred spewing out of the hearts of Eastern Orthodox Christians when I hear things such as we "worship a different Trinity" or we "venerate a different Theotokos." Is this charitable? Is this patterning the life of Christ? These statements are coming from Eastern Orthodox "Christians."

And I don't want to speak for everyone else, but I'm sure that a lot of members on the board (myself included) don't think that everyone in heaven is just going to be Orthodox.  Roll Eyes
Thanks be to God.

There is a harsh legalistic tone to Orthodoxy, but my my experience with the people shows that people do have room in their hearts for other Christians, regardless of disagreements. Of course on this board, where Catholics and Orthodox alike are posting questions basically baiting the other members, you are going to see an extreme.
I feel as though we, as Catholics, are treated as subhuman on this forum time and time again.

ETA: And I have never seen such a questioning of one's own motives and pride as I've seen in this community. At least the people can recognize that they do get on their high horse and be too forceful about their beliefs at times. The opinions here are diverse, and shame on you for branding everyone under one narrow category.
I apologize if my words offended you. They were not directed towards any Eastern Orthodox Christian who truly has the love of Christ alive within them as I see that you have. Please forgive me.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 06:52:06 PM by Wyatt » Logged
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« Reply #107 on: March 28, 2011, 06:55:27 PM »

I still absolutely love our view on the Sacraments, though. The fact that we do not teach that the Sacraments are absolutely not present anywhere other than within our visible Communion is both refreshing and charitable.
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Peter J
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« Reply #108 on: March 28, 2011, 11:00:15 PM »

I answered you, then I asked you a question about Orthodoxy and you pleaded ignorance.

No, you didn't answered me and you asked me about Oriental Orthodoxy which I consider as close to my Church as you are.

There doesn't seem to be an emoticon for "speechless". (There's "lips sealed" but that's not really what I mean.) If you consider me as close to you as the Oriental Orthodox are, then I only wish that more posters here felt the way you do. Smiley

But to try to move the conversation forward, let me redo my question:
Suppose an OO couple brings their baby to their local OO priest to be baptized (and chrismated of course), does it follow that the baby is now in full communion with the Eastern Orthodox? (If not, my next question is: does that mean that the baptism is invalid?)
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« Reply #109 on: March 29, 2011, 02:59:43 AM »

But to try to move the conversation forward, let me redo my question:
Suppose an OO couple brings their baby to their local OO priest to be baptized (and chrismated of course), does it follow that the baby is now in full communion with the Eastern Orthodox? (If not, my next question is: does that mean that the baptism is invalid?)

The baptism is most likely invalid.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 03:00:07 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #110 on: March 29, 2011, 03:11:18 AM »

"If you bite and devour one another take heed that you are not consumed by one another" (Gal.5:15).
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Wyatt
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« Reply #111 on: March 29, 2011, 05:48:36 PM »

The baptism is most likely invalid.
Most likely? I would think on matters as important as whether a given Church has graced Sacraments it would be important to have definite answers.
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Peter J
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« Reply #112 on: March 29, 2011, 09:24:16 PM »

The baptism is most likely invalid.
Most likely? I would think on matters as important as whether a given Church has graced Sacraments it would be important to have definite answers.

At the very least it seems ironic, Michał, that you can't say whether OO baptism is valid or not, given how you expect answers from us Catholics on similar questions.
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« Reply #113 on: March 29, 2011, 10:37:44 PM »

Grace and Peace Everyone,

My Orthodox Priest, at the time of my little boy Aidan's Birth, advised me to allow my daughter to continue with her Catholic Instructions and receive First Confession and First Communion at our Catholic Parish and then he would admit her along with me via Orthodox Chrismation.

If I continue on my current track, I will be officially separated from the Catholic Church this Pascha. I don't know I have feel about all of that but it's interesting never-the-less.
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« Reply #114 on: March 29, 2011, 11:02:38 PM »

By officially separated do you mean that you will become a catechumen?
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« Reply #115 on: March 30, 2011, 09:41:15 AM »

The baptism is most likely invalid.
Most likely? I would think on matters as important as whether a given Church has graced Sacraments it would be important to have definite answers.

At the very least it seems ironic, Michał, that you can't say whether OO baptism is valid or not, given how you expect answers from us Catholics on similar questions.

No, it's not. My Church does not state where Baptism is invalid so I don't have to answer clearly. You Church does and it helps nothing.
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« Reply #116 on: March 30, 2011, 12:37:07 PM »

The baptism is most likely invalid.
Most likely? I would think on matters as important as whether a given Church has graced Sacraments it would be important to have definite answers.

At the very least it seems ironic, Michał, that you can't say whether OO baptism is valid or not, given how you expect answers from us Catholics on similar questions.

No, it's not. My Church does not state where Baptism is invalid so I don't have to answer clearly. You Church does and it helps nothing.
Why are you so bothered by our Church's teaching?
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« Reply #117 on: April 01, 2011, 11:17:55 PM »

By officially separated do you mean that you will become a catechumen?

By my failure to participate in the Sacramental Life of the Western Church for one year.
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