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Author Topic: Catholics discovering Orthodoxy  (Read 25324 times) Average Rating: 0
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #90 on: May 19, 2004, 04:18:19 PM »

I'm not one to make such ethno-cultural distinctions.

A troll is a troll is a troll, no matter where he comes from.

"Dawn take you all and be stone to you!"

well, If I am a troll then put be with my own kind. The euros.
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spartacus
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« Reply #91 on: May 19, 2004, 04:21:40 PM »

I am very curous RB and I think it is relevant to the thread topic,,,

Can you please explain why you as an apologist for the RCC hang out here?
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JoeZollars
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« Reply #92 on: May 19, 2004, 04:22:23 PM »

A Catholic is a Catholic and Orthodox are not only Catholic but IMO the only real Catholics.

Joe Zollars
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spartacus
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« Reply #93 on: May 19, 2004, 04:25:09 PM »

A Catholic is a Catholic and Orthodox are not only Catholic but IMO the only real Catholics.

Joe Zollars

Although I would try to not be so prideful as to say Orthodox are the only "real catholics"

I agree with what you are saying.
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Schultz
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« Reply #94 on: May 19, 2004, 04:25:22 PM »

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well, If I am a troll then put be with my own kind. The euros.

...where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.  (Col 3:11)

What a good Catholic you are, wanting to be put with your "own kind".  Silly me to think that as a Christian, I should eschew such arbitrary distinctions.

I'll be sure to keep you far away from the Africans and Asians.  
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« Reply #95 on: May 19, 2004, 04:26:49 PM »

Quote
Can you please explain why you as an apologist for the RCC hang out here?

Once upon a time there were three billy goats, who were to go up to the hillside to make themselves fat, and the name of all three was "Gruff."

On the way up was a bridge over a cascading stream they had to cross; and under the bridge lived a great ugly troll , with eyes as big as saucers, and a nose as long as a poker...
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JoeZollars
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« Reply #96 on: May 19, 2004, 04:29:28 PM »

I am not meaning anything derogatory to Romans, but from my study of History and Doctrine it is clear to me that the only church to have maintained the original teachings of the Faith *without* subtractions and/or additions is the Orthodox Catholic Church.  

As some have said elsewhere, "We are Catholic, just not Roman."

I should probably state here, that I loved the time I spent in the Roman Church because it was there I was introduced to many of the things (the Theotokos, Liturgy, etc.) that one can only find in their fullest form in the Orthodox Catholic Church.  Without the time in the Roman Chruch, I doupt very seriously that I ever would have come this far in uniting myself to the Orthodox Church.  

An oft used analogy applies, "I've had the baby food and mushed carrots.  Now it is time for the steak dinner."

Joe Zollars
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #97 on: May 19, 2004, 04:34:47 PM »

I am very curous RB and I think it is relevant to the thread topic,,,

Can you please explain why you as an apologist for the RCC hang out here?

Who says that I am an apologist of my church? I don't need to defend my church, she does that for herself very well.

Nor am I here to convert anyone or be converted. I was born catholic and will die a catholic.

I am here to learn more about orthodoxy but I keep running into obstacles. The only ones that have been helping me with my questions are the moderators. They have been great.

Everyone else have left their manners behind.
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #98 on: May 19, 2004, 04:37:15 PM »

...where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.  (Col 3:11)

What a good Catholic you are, wanting to be put with your "own kind".  Silly me to think that as a Christian, I should eschew such arbitrary distinctions.

I'll be sure to keep you far away from the Africans and Asians.  


well, you guys were the ones that label me " the little euro troll".  Now it is my fault. and why in the world are you bringing in race. Roll Eyes

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Schultz
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« Reply #99 on: May 19, 2004, 04:39:30 PM »

I never used the word "Euro".  

Who said anything about race?  You're the one who brought up distinctions between the continents, AFTER I said they made no difference to me.  You are the one who wants to be with his "own kind", by which you simply must mean European.

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JoeZollars
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« Reply #100 on: May 19, 2004, 04:48:18 PM »

no of course he means people who get called by the "spirit" to recieve communion under false pretenses.  Wink

Joe Zollars
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #101 on: May 19, 2004, 04:56:07 PM »

no of course he means people who get called by the "spirit" to recieve communion under false pretenses.  Wink

Joe Zollars

I would not being called by the holy spirit " false pretenses" if I were you. He might not like that. Shocked

and if you forgot. I did say that the priest knew my family and knew that we were from both traditions.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2004, 05:08:36 PM by romanbyzantium » Logged
Jakub
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« Reply #102 on: May 19, 2004, 05:26:16 PM »

RB,

Relax before you blow a gasket.

I will have to agree with Joe Z & Spartacus RE: the RCC.

I cannot recieve communion from a female Eucharistic Minister & a altargirl .

No way, no how, no mas.

Way too many changes, that is why the RCC is in turmoil, and many are fleeing to Orthodoxy or the ECC.

james
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #103 on: May 19, 2004, 05:32:20 PM »

RB,

Relax before you blow a gasket.

I will have to agree with Joe Z & Spartacus RE: the RCC.

I cannot recieve communion from a female Eucharistic Minister & a altargirl .

No way, no how, no mas.

Way too many changes, that is why the RCC is in turmoil, and many are fleeing to Orthodoxy or the ECC.

james

what are you talking about blowing a gasket. Smiley  

I only recieve communion from a priest. Btw, you give the wrong impression when you use the word fleeing to orthodoxy. You are still in the church in ECC.
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« Reply #104 on: May 19, 2004, 05:58:23 PM »

OK RB,

I'll rephrase it, there are many migrating to the Eastern Church, be it ICWR( the U word is distasteful) or not.

james
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #105 on: May 19, 2004, 06:16:33 PM »

OK RB,

I'll rephrase it, there are many migrating to the Eastern Church, be it ICWR( the U word is distasteful) or not.

james

Now why did you do that?

what is ICWR ( the U word is distasteful)?
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spartacus
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« Reply #106 on: May 19, 2004, 06:58:42 PM »

Come on guys...RB seems OK here...why all the hostility? In his defense there are many in the RCC who are under the impression (including some RC priests) that it is OK to recieve Holy Communion in an Orthodox Church....

But then all but two RC diocese in the US also give Holy Communion to publiuc officials who continue to present themselves despite working very publicly and vocally against Church teachings regarding abortion......not naming names or anything here Tongue
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #107 on: May 19, 2004, 07:28:05 PM »

Come on guys...RB seems OK here...why all the hostility? In his defense there are many in the RCC who are under the impression (including some RC priests) that it is OK to recieve Holy Communion in an Orthodox Church....

But then all but two RC diocese in the US also give Holy Communion to publiuc officials who continue to present themselves despite working very publicly and vocally against Church teachings regarding abortion......not naming names or anything here Tongue

Spartacus,

I am very aware of the policy of receiving in an orthodox church. I know that we need the bishops permission. Read my post on this very issue.

and you are right there are many who are disobedient.
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JoeZollars
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« Reply #108 on: May 19, 2004, 07:42:50 PM »

RB, I was not calling the HOly Spirit a "false pretense" but rather your actions.  The priest may know your family and know it has some Romans in it, but he did not know that *you* were not Orthodox, and you did not correct him--thus the false pretenses remark.

Spartacus and others who may not know what on earth we are talking about, go to the Orthodox/Catholic* discussion forum and look at the thread "I have been recieving communion in your churches."  It should be on one of the first three pages of threads.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #109 on: May 19, 2004, 07:47:01 PM »

RB,

Manners?  You're the one who started asking rather inflammatory questions, kept on asking them in an inflammatory manner when told that you were and then said that we were being rude for doubting your sincerity when they way you asked your questions would indicate that you hadn't any.  Remember, Shulz is Catholic and doubts your sincerity the most out of anyone here.  Stop being so sensitive to anything anyone tells you, read over and edit what you type before you click on submit and have a humble heart "Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth."

Finally, have a nice day. Smiley
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« Reply #110 on: May 19, 2004, 07:56:57 PM »

clearing throat in official sounding moderator voice....

Please, this board is for discussion of issues relating to converts to Orthodox Christianity.  If you would like to discuss the relationship of the Roman Church and the Orthodox Church, please do so on boards designated for that purpose.  

Thanks,

Nektarios
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #111 on: May 19, 2004, 08:31:24 PM »

RB,

Manners?  You're the one who started asking rather inflammatory questions, kept on asking them in an inflammatory manner when told that you were and then said that we were being rude for doubting your sincerity when they way you asked your questions would indicate that you hadn't any.  Remember, Shulz is Catholic and doubts your sincerity the most out of anyone here.  Stop being so sensitive to anything anyone tells you, read over and edit what you type before you click on submit and have a humble heart "Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth."

Finally, have a nice day. Smiley

I have not asked any inflammatory questions at all. Far from it. If you want examples of imflammatory questions just visist CARM.org .

Schulz is not catholic enough for me. Soon enough he will be joining you. You will see. I have seen caths like him, they eventually jump ship.

I am not being sensitive at all, just shocked at the name calling on the part of certain posters here. The only people that have had any sense of decorum are the moderators and several posters.

The rest just react emotinally to some of my questions. That is most unfortunate.
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« Reply #112 on: May 19, 2004, 11:35:56 PM »

I have not asked any inflammatory questions at all. Far from it. If you want examples of imflammatory questions just visist CARM.org .

Riiiiiiight.  Your "I thought the emperor was the head of your church?" wasn't inflammatory Orthodox baiting?  Give me a break!

Schulz is not catholic enough for me. Soon enough he will be joining you. You will see. I have seen caths like him, they eventually jump ship.

I detect some bitterness in your posture towards Schulz.  It's attitudes like yours which may well push him to Orthodoxy.

I am not being sensitive at all, just shocked at the name calling on the part of certain posters here. The only people that have had any sense of decorum are the moderators and several posters.

Shall I assume you to be one of those people with no sense of decorum?

The rest just react emotinally to some of my questions. That is most unfortunate.

Au contraire, we react with reasoned and researched responses, while you viscerally react in a negative manner every time one of your historically inaccurate theories is torn to shreds.
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Ben
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« Reply #113 on: May 19, 2004, 11:41:04 PM »

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Ben I see that you are unabashedly pro-life...That is another big problem I had with the RCC here in the states...before my conversion I wrote my local diocese 5times and two neighboring diocese three times over the course of 14 months asking when they would be finally speak oput about how pro-abrortion politicians should not present themselves for Holy COmmunion...and also asking that if I was seeing things incorrectly...Why they are still allowed to Holy COmmunion....(I asked my parish priest and he told me to task the Diocese) I never once got a response from any Diocese ...until I wrote them telling me to take my name off their mailing list....then I got an immediate reply...but I am still waiting for the answer they promised me. This I think is the height of hypocrasy.

That is unfortunate. But that shouldn't make you think any less of the Catholic Church. I mean those Bishops did not represent the Catholic Church in their actions. It may interest you to know that some Bishops are fighting the good fight, in fact the Bishop of Colorado Springs recently stated those who support politicians who are pro-abortion, euthanasia, or gay marriage, can not recieve communion in his diocese until they repent of their position. I posted an article from the Denver Post on this in the Free-For-All a little while ago.

Quote
I attribute this to a celibate priesthood...Without the experince of being a parent I do not think most of the priests in the RCC fully grasp this issue -- despite what they might think.

I strongly disagree. Orthodoxy too has celibate priests and, of course, Monks. And I know celibate Orthodox priests who counsel families and guide them in their daily problems. I do not think you have to kids to understand the family, or to give spiritual advice to a family. And certainly you don't have to have a family to be pro-life, if this was true I sure know some Orthodox monks who aren'r going to be too happy.

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The experience of becoming a parent deepened my understanding of this issue in ways I do not think celibate people ever can.

I known a whole monastery of Orthodox Monks who would strongly disagree with this protestant mentality you are endorsing.
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #114 on: May 19, 2004, 11:53:42 PM »

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I have not asked any inflammatory questions at all. Far from it. If you want examples of imflammatory questions just visist CARM.org .

Riiiiiiight.  Your "I thought the emperor was the head of your church?" wasn't inflammatory Orthodox baiting?  Give me a break!

Schulz is not catholic enough for me. Soon enough he will be joining you. You will see. I have seen caths like him, they eventually jump ship.

I detect some bitterness in your posture towards Schulz.  It's attitudes like yours which may well push him to Orthodoxy.

I am not being sensitive at all, just shocked at the name calling on the part of certain posters here. The only people that have had any sense of decorum are the moderators and several posters.

Shall I assume you to be one of those people with no sense of decorum?

The rest just react emotinally to some of my questions. That is most unfortunate.

Au contraire, we react with reasoned and researched responses, while you viscerally react in a negative manner every time one of your historically inaccurate theories is torn to shreds.



1. have you a heard of caesaropapism ? Are you going to deny that orthodoxy had a church state relationship with the Byzantine empire?  I could give a list of historical text that says the samething and how he had great power within the church. Just because you deny it doesn't mean that he never acted like it or had that much power.  and it is ok that we disagree.

But the funny thing is that you guys deny in your case but make the claim against my church with again the " FRANKISH CONSPIRACY" takeover of the western church.

2. No bitterness. A person who has christ should never be bitter. I was just making an observation. If he jumps ships it is not because of me, friend. I don't force anyone to do anything. Everyone has their fate in their hands. Actually, people who know say that I am more catholic than the pope himself. Some people I know even call me fanatical. I guess it is my involvement with Opus Dei and the like minded groups.

3. I am very well mannered. Thank you very much. Civilized people don't resort to name calling when someone says something that they don't like. It is just barbaric.

4. Do you think that an answer that involves the " FRANKISH/WESTERN" conspiracy is reacting with reasoned and researched responses? I don't think so.  You guys( except the moderaters) love to point out certain historical facts ( which I suspect was gotten from some internet list) and forgetting to mention the total historical context of said incident. I call it selective amnesia symdrome. and the other one is the famous game of acting " victim".


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spartacus
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« Reply #115 on: May 20, 2004, 01:10:40 AM »

That is unfortunate. But that shouldn't make you think any less of the Catholic Church. [/quopte]

So someone should not think less of the RCC 9in the US because it is hypocritical and non-responsive to relevant questions from lifelong Parishioners -- non-responsive that is until they leave?Huh?

Ben you seem to be coming from the perspective that the RCC can do no wrong...history teaches us differently though. Even in the Gospels Christs declaring St. Peter as the "rock" is immediately followed by a passage where Peter is possessed by Satan.

Quote
I sure know some Orthodox monks who aren'r going to be too happy.I known a whole monastery of Orthodox Monks who would strongly disagree with this protestant mentality you are endorsing.

Ben I would ask you to ask your children, their RC friends, and the people sitting in the pews what they think of the celibate priesthood and ask them if they think it is a positive thing for the RCC.

Here is why I find this requirement rather silly:

1.) Celibacy was optional until shortly after the Great Schism with East. Historians generally agrre this was based on earthly money matters more than scripoture or tradition. We have two priests in my family...so this discussion came up quite a bit as I was growing up.

2.) Even the RC has released reports detailing how the priesthood has been innundated with a high percetage of homosexuals and men who are socially and sexually immature.

3.) The celibacy requirement is not absolute or uniform. IN parts of Africa RC priests are openly sexually active (but not married)...and if an Anglican priests converts to RC then he can be a married RC priest with kids and everything.....So if a cradle RC wants to be a married RC priest wity kids he can first convert to the Anglican Church, become ordained there and then go back to the RCC. There is such a priest in the Joliet Diocese who is married and has children Huh....Now if Celibacy is such a deal breaker for the priesthood...this should not be allowed to happen...there should not be one rule for cradle Catholics and another rule for Anglican converts to the RCC where the priesthood is concerned.  

Some are called to celibacy...most are not. I challenge though to find any celibate adult without children who can honestly claim they have the full appreciation of what it means to bring life into this world and be parent.

Ben...I see a lot of toeing the company line here with your posts and you strike me as an intelleigent person. In your life is it only when you come to questions about the RCC that you adopt a diiferent set of criteria for analyzing things ... or do you just tend to accpet everything at face value even though it appears hypocritical, unhealthy and in some cases just plain silly?

I know you are older than me and times were different when you were growing up. The RCc priest at the Parish where my wife and I married told us stories of how he was constantly propositioned by homosexuals in his seminary -- during our pre-cana counseling sessions Huh

My wife and I also have more than relative who are priests (one of them actually married us  in that same parish) and they too have related similar stories to us when we broached the subject. The stories of debauchery within the priesthood are just horrible because quite frankly -- they are true.

Ben just because you are Catholic does not mean you are required to check your mind at the door. This is the USA in the 21 st century -- go ahead question how the RCC is being shepherded. I was a voice alone in the wilderness. Indeed I had to leave before anyone even bothered to listen --

But that is behind me now. I am overjoyed to have found what is for my famnily and me

"The One Holy , Catholic and Apostolic Church" -- it's just not centered in Rome.
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« Reply #116 on: May 20, 2004, 01:15:41 AM »

Excuse me RB...the thread title here is "Catholics discovering Orthodoxy" I see from reading your posts you have gotten a little off topic...now people gave you a hard time even before you came to this thread...so some defense is understandable. The general tone of your posts though seem centered on this tension between you and others here on subject not related to the question at ahnd.

May I humbly ask that you post something here that is more on-topic? If you want to argue about how you feel others here are treating you please start your own thread...but right now I am feeling a lot of "heat" and not seeing much "light".  Smiley
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« Reply #117 on: May 20, 2004, 01:51:46 AM »

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Ben you seem to be coming from the perspective that the RCC can do no wrong...history teaches us differently though. Even in the Gospels Christs declaring St. Peter as the "rock" is immediately followed by a passage where Peter is possessed by Satan.


It is a fundemental mark of true Christianity, that the true Church can not err. However if we look at it, that would seem rule out *both* the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, for both churches are full of sinners, and always have been. And memebers of both Churches have committed horrible things, but this in no way damages the essential truth that the true Church can not err in matters in faith. Now as to which Church hasn't erred in matters of faith, I'm still figuring that out.

As for Peter, and the passage that you refer to, where you seem to believe it refers to Peter being possessed by Satan.

Firstly, let me tell you what an Orthodox priest (OCA) told me regarding this pasage. He told me that the word Satan comes from the aramic, greek, or hebrew (can't remember which one  Tongue) word that means 'adversary". So if we understand that verse correctly, the priest told me, we can only mean it to understand Peter as doing something/ saying something that is the opposite of Chirst's plan and/or will. The passge does not mean that Satan and Peter were one, or that Satan possesed Peter. Rather the verse means Peter, as a human, sinned, he failed, he missed the mark.

Secondly, let give my own opinion here. Even if Peter was possesed by Satan it would not hurt Papal Infalliblity. One can not argue against Papal Infalliblty by attacking individuals who held the office of Pope of Rome. To do this shows ignorance on the part of the attacker. For the dogma of Papal Infallibilty does not state that the Pope can not sin, or even hold heretical opinions. It simply means that he is guided by the HS and prevent from all error, when speaking ex cathedra. Sinfull humans, from the RCC view, can not damage the office of the papacy, popes are not sinless saints, they can be of course, but just because they are a Pope doesn't mean the RCC thinks they can do no wrong.

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and the people sitting in the pews what they think of the celibate priesthood and ask them if they think it is a positive thing for the RCC.

I have yet to personally meet a Roman Catholic totally against celibacy as a requirement for the priesthood. In fact, I know many converts to Roman Catholicsm from Orthodoxy who like it because their priest has more time for parishoneers and doesn't have to worry about a family and, in some cases, a secular job.

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Celibacy was optional until shortly after the Great Schism with East. Historians generally agrre this was based on earthly money matters more than scripoture or tradition. We have two priests in my family...so this discussion came up quite a bit as I was growing up.

It is true that for the first part of the Christian Church, celibacy was an option for priests, but of course not for monks, who are the backbone of the faith. But this in no way makes it silly or that is shouldn't be a requirement. Celibacy in so many ways, throughout history has strengthed the Catholic priesthood, and produced great saints.

Quote
The celibacy requirement is not absolute or uniform. IN parts of Africa RC priests are openly sexually active (but not married)...and if an Anglican priests converts to RC then he can be a married RC priest with kids and everything.....So if a cradle RC wants to be a married RC priest wity kids he can first convert to the Anglican Church, become ordained there and then go back to the RCC. There is such a priest in the Joliet Diocese who is married and has children Huh....Now if Celibacy is such a deal breaker for the priesthood...this should not be allowed to happen...there should not be one rule for cradle Catholics and another rule for Anglican converts to the RCC where the priesthood is concerned.  


The Church makes exceptions. Every rule has an exception. For example is it not a rule in Orthodoxy that a healthy Orthodox Christian observe the Nativity fast? However, my local GOA bishop allows an exception, so that his flock may celebrate Thanksgiving. In the Catholic Church celibacy is the norm for the Roman rite, there are exceptions to this, but this does not change the norm, Pope JPII is clear that it is the norm, and will remain that way.

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Some are called to celibacy

I totally agree.

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I challenge though to find any celibate adult without children who can honestly claim they have the full appreciation of what it means to bring life into this world and be parent.

I know Orthodox monks who, as spiritual fathers of many souls, know a heck of a lot more about parenting then any couple with 10 kids!

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Ben...I see a lot of toeing the company line here with your posts and you strike me as an intelleigent person. In your life is it only when you come to questions about the RCC that you adopt a diiferent set of criteria for analyzing things ... or do you just tend to accpet everything at face value even though it appears hypocritical, unhealthy and in some cases just plain silly?

I do not think celibacy is silly or unhealthy. In many cases and for a good number of individuals it is the healthiest life style possible! I understand your objection to it being a requirment, but I actually think this rules keeps priests in line. I mean my God with how outrages the Church has gotten since Vat II, imagine the divorces, the martial problems, the child raising problems, priests trying to make time for the family and the parish. My God the Catholic Church would have a hundred times more scandals if every priest had a family.

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I know you are older than me and times were different when you were growing up.


lol...how old are you? And why do you assume I grew up back in the day?


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Ben just because you are Catholic does not mean you are required to check your mind at the door.


Please get to know me. I most surely haven't check my mind out the door. The fact that I am a traditionalist Catholic, and interested in Orthodoxy testifies to that.

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This is the USA in the 21 st century -- go ahead question how the RCC is being shepherded. I was a voice alone in the wilderness. Indeed I had to leave before anyone even bothered to listen --


The RCC is in the greatest crisis it has ever been in. This is why I am a traditionalist. Telling me that the RCC is a mess, isn't news to me. I've been there, done that, and bought the T-shirt. I know that the Church is in a HUGE mess, a desperate one.
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« Reply #118 on: May 20, 2004, 05:28:41 AM »

1. have you a heard of caesaropapism ? Are you going to deny that orthodoxy had a church state relationship with the Byzantine empire?  I could give a list of historical text that says the samething and how he had great power within the church. Just because you deny it doesn't mean that he never acted like it or had that much power.  and it is ok that we disagree.

Have you heard of papocaesarism?  Also, are you going to deny that Roman Catholicism had a church state relationship with the Roman Empire?  Are you also going to deny that Roman Catholicism had a church state relationship with the Kingdom of France?


But the funny thing is that you guys deny in your case but make the claim against my church with again the " FRANKISH CONSPIRACY" takeover of the western church.

So you deny that Charlemagne and subsequent Frankish rulers held sway over the Roman Catholic Church?  No French or German rulers interfered with the selection of or autonomy of the Popes?  

2. No bitterness. A person who has christ should never be bitter. I was just making an observation. If he jumps ships it is not because of me, friend. I don't force anyone to do anything. Everyone has their fate in their hands. Actually, people who know say that I am more catholic than the pope himself. Some people I know even call me fanatical. I guess it is my involvement with Opus Dei and the like minded groups.

Ah, Opus Dei.  That explains alot.  I do seem to detect your purpose for being here as an attempt to stem the tide of Roman Catholics embracing Holy Orthodoxy.  Odd that while you are trying to disuade Roman Catholics from becoming Orthodox, you yourself have no qualms about receiving Orthodox communion under false pretenses.  Read the Unofficial Opus Dei FAQ: http://www.mond.at/opus.dei/opus.dei.uo.faq.html

3. I am very well mannered. Thank you very much. Civilized people don't resort to name calling when someone says something that they don't like. It is just barbaric.

Well mannered?  That seems to be in the eye of the beholder.  I find it amusing that you say that name calling is not something civilized people do, and then proceed to engage in name calling by saying that those who do so are barbarians!

4. Do you think that an answer that involves the " FRANKISH/WESTERN" conspiracy is reacting with reasoned and researched responses? I don't think so.  You guys( except the moderaters) love to point out certain historical facts ( which I suspect was gotten from some internet list) and forgetting to mention the total historical context of said incident. I call it selective amnesia symdrome. and the other one is the famous game of acting " victim".

Umm, you seem to be the one who can't back your statements with facts.  I can back up my statements with facts, and ironically, use Roman Catholic sources to confirm much of what I write.  You seem to be the one who has selective amnesia, as you hurl the charge of caesaropapism at the Orthodox, while ignoring the fact that there has been a considereable amount of caesaropapism in the Roman Catholic Church's past.  Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

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« Reply #119 on: May 20, 2004, 10:17:53 AM »

I'm terribly sorry but in my opinion it is plain silliness to suggest that those who are unmarried and without children know as much about what it is to be married and to have children as those who are married and have children.  These events are watersheds in life, they change you by the experience, and you cannot learn that in a book.  The advice I have gotten from celibates relating to these matters is pure theory because they have not experienced it themselves.  As a result, I much, much prefer married priests for pastoral reasons.  Celibacy is not to be condemned, we Orthodox have celibates as well ... but for the most part our parish priests are married, and that simply makes good pastoral sense.
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« Reply #120 on: May 20, 2004, 11:23:14 AM »

Brendan....

I can understand what you are saying, to a point, but it is still not a good argument against celibacy. You can go to a phycologist or a therapist, or your married friends, for marital advice! Why do you need a priest to tell you how to deal with your marriage and your kids? Perhaps his idea of how to raise a kid or to deal with an argument is totally different than yours.

I personally understand the logic in having married priests, and I am not against a married celrgy, but just because a priest in celibate doesn't mean that he isn't a good priest or that he isn't able to meet the pastoral needs of his parish.

I think some are called to the married life, and others are not. And we must keep a balance. Which both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches have failed at doing, however it seems that the Orthodox Church is doing a better job at it, though imperfect.

I remember the first Orthodox priest I met with telling me that he was concerned that celibacy was downplayed a little too much in Orthodoxy, and that it shouldn't just be limited to the Monastic life. He told me he remembers in seminary, young men who had completed their studies and were ready to be ordained, but with the encouragement of their bishop, they spent years trying to find a wife before they'd even think of getting ordained, not because they were called to the married life, but because they felt pressured and obligated to do so.

I think Orthodoxy puts too much emphasis on priests having to be married. And as a result I know some Orthodox parishes who suffer, when their priest has 5 kids, a secular job, and a parish of 60 people.

As I said I see the logic in a married clergy, but we as a result can not downplay celibacy, and its central role in the life of the Church

In Christ,
Ben

P.S.Let us not forget that those who run the Orthodox Church are celibate, and it seems to be working out just fine!
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« Reply #121 on: May 20, 2004, 12:23:13 PM »



P.S.Let us not forget that those who run the Orthodox Church are celibate, and it seems to be working out just fine!

AH ....this is truly the administrative difference between Orthodox Christianity and the RCC. It is I think inaccurate to say the Orthodox Church is "run" by celibate men. Granted the officers of the Church might be almost exclusively monastic -- but the head of the Church is Christ and the Church itself is the Parishioners. Individually Parishes are administartively run by the Parishioners. It is not a democracy -- more like a consenus. The Parishioners very much have a say in administrative matters. Yes this can result in some Parishes "withering on the vine" if you will ....but this is not because the priest is married -- it is because the parishioners have made choices and decsions that resulted in this.

In the Midwest there are a number of very small Parishes where it has been strongly suggested that two or more small Parishes near each other merge...or make some changes like English Liturgies and congregational singing which have been proven to help Parishes attract new members and converts -- but the Parishioners in these Parishes refuse and so suffer the consequences of their decisions.

This is the weakness of the system. The strength however is that Parishioners have the ability to greatly influence administartive decisions for good...and also have the ability and methods by which they can act if they think the Diocese has made an administartive mistake onmatters such as priest assignment, etc.

Unlike Catholicism, Orthodox Parishioners are not subject to the administrative edicts of the local Bishop. Orthodox Christinas are not serfs. Orthodox Christians will not have a priests "forced" upon their Parishes...and very much unlike the RCC there is no shortage of Orthodox priests.

In Litugical matters though -- that is the realm of the priesthood -- and thatis how it should be.

Again this goes back to my point about the inheerant weakness of an entirely celibate priesthood -- autocratically ruling over the Parishioners in matters that are not just liturgical -- but also administrative.

It is impossible for me to imagine an Orthodox priest being accused of crimes against children -- being re-assigned to another parish of unsuspecting victims -- I just can not imagine the Parishioners allowing this to happen -- or the Bishops knowingly doing this -- let alone thinking the parishioners would them get away with it. Yet that is what we have today in the RCC. We saw it with Cardinal Law in Boston...and in Illinois it looks like more than one Diocese is wanting to use the First Ammendment and the Sanctity of the Confessional are being used as justification for refusing to cooperate in criminal investigations -- how sad.
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« Reply #122 on: May 20, 2004, 12:36:19 PM »

Ben,

I think these are the problems Brendan has (which I agree with):

1) Allowing convert married clergy to become RC priests, while cradle RCs can't is a double standard that is completely illogical - it's not just a "different custom/tradition" or for pastoral reasons.  

2) The RCC SYSTEM of requiring celibacy of their priests and considering the sheer size of the Church creates a situation where abuse/pedophilia/molestation/etc. is more likely to occur.  Taking the population of "celibate" adult men, the liklihood of sexual deviancy/abuse/pedophilia/molestation/etc.  When you put a higher risk group in a pastoral situation and then compound this with the negligent behaviour of their bishops, you get the huge mess that the RCC in America has.

We Orthodox are just saying that the RCC is just reaping the harvest of the bad seed of requiring celibate priests.
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« Reply #123 on: May 20, 2004, 12:40:26 PM »

 Ben...

If Celibacy is such a critical role in the life of the Chruch...then why was it optional in the RCC for the first 1,000 + years?

And as far as seeing priests for counseling....This idea that a RC parish priest is only to be seen for purely spritual counseling is a very new facet of the modern RCC. I am not that old but I remember as a child Catholics seeking out their priests for counseling because they wanted that counseling to come from a spiritual source rather than a secular one.

Two years ago when I was still a practicing RC I had some difficulties within my extended family and had some choices to make on how I could approach the dificulties of dealing with relatives who were committing some grievous sins. I called my parish priest and was looking for guidance on these matters from a spiritual perspective -- and was essentially told that due to the size of the parish he really could only spend time with me if someone was dying....unfortuantely my experince is more the rule than the exception in the Chicago area.

Is the job of a priest to shepherd his flock -- or just to celebrate mass, and preside over funerals and confession?

And about your conversation with Orthodox priest...I wonder if perhaps he was making an effort to be polite....if an Orthodox wants to live the celibate life he or she can enter a monatry. However if they want to be a parish priest -- it is better in general if they have the life experince where they can identify with the issues their Parishioners face.

Tis is why the RCC find it necessary for lay people to do most of the pre-cana counseling and education in its chools where matters of sex and marriage are concerned. AT a prominant boys Catholic HS in the Chicago area they had an Orthodox priest who was the head of their religione dept. This Orthodox priest who was hired to teach the RC kids religion -- because he wasa degreed theolgian --was laso asked by the priests there if he could teach on the subject of sex ed. -- because ,the RC priests told him, "they won't listen to us".
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« Reply #124 on: May 20, 2004, 12:43:30 PM »

spartacus,

I hadn't read your new post before I posted.

A couple of corrections:

1) Got news for you - what the bishop says, goes.  They tell the priests where to go.  BUT, if the parishoners don't like said priest, they can protest by...not going to church and not paying tithes.  The bishop would then get the clue and get a more appropriate priest.  This is more of a moderate view between what you described for EO vs RCC.

2)  There definitely IS a shortage of priests.  Ben has a point, as there ARE Orthodox priests with families and full time secular jobs.  Not ideal, but reality.  The shortage may not be as grave as in the RCC, but it is reality.
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« Reply #125 on: May 20, 2004, 12:59:41 PM »

Im going to set up a new thread on this topic in Orthodox -Catholic forum, because we are meandering a bit here.
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« Reply #126 on: May 20, 2004, 01:12:09 PM »

spartacus,

I hadn't read your new post before I posted.

A couple of corrections:

1) Got news for you - what the bishop says, goes.  They tell the priests where to go.  BUT, if the parishoners don't like said priest, they can protest by...not going to church and not paying tithes.  The bishop would then get the clue and get a more appropriate priest.  This is more of a moderate view between what you described for EO vs RCC.

2)  There definitely IS a shortage of priests.  Ben has a point, as there ARE Orthodox priests with families and full time secular jobs.  Not ideal, but reality.  The shortage may not be as grave as in the RCC, but it is reality.

1.) The Parishioners also control the amount of the priest's salary....an extremely powerful tool yes? Compared to the RCC the Orthodox system seems to empower the Parishioners much more in such matters than what RCs could ever hope to be.

2.)Compared to the RCC there is nowhere near a shortage of priests in the OCA that I am aware of.

The last RC parish I was in had more than 2,200 families (more than 6,000 parishioners) and only two priests with one of them having to be shipped in from Africa (a nice man...but very few can understand him given his thick accent). My experience is not at all uncommon for the RCC in urbanized and suburbanized areas in the US.

And as far as Orthodox priests with families and secuilar jobs -- how large are their Parishes? Is it not the Parishioners who determine this situation by their decisions?

Again I am blessed to have such a healthy, strong and growing OCA parish so close to my home.  My perspective I think is that of a new convert whose experience is one of being in an Orthodox Parish that is very healthy...and it does not take long to realize it....you hear it in the congregational singing and see it the faces of young families and tons of little kids.

People of every age and race, with ethnic backgrounds as diverse as the American experience.....Speaking mostly English but also about a dozen other languages...all worshipping together.
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« Reply #127 on: May 20, 2004, 01:20:25 PM »

"Parishioners much more in such matters than what RCs could ever hope to be."

It varies by jurisdiction in North America, I think.  I do not think it operates like this in the Orthodox world, however, I think it exists here because of the history of how parishes were established here (more grass-roots than top-down), but it can lead to problems as well, so we have to be careful.

"Compared to the RCC there is nowhere near a shortage of priests in the OCA that I am aware of."

Probably because we are a lot smaller.  Also remember that we have many convert priests, half or so of our active clergy are converts and the situation is similar at the seminary level.  In terms of generating vocations among cradle Orthodox I don't think we're much better off than the RCC is per capita, for many of the same reasons (ie, our secular, materialist society).

"And as far as Orthodox priests with families and secuilar jobs -- how large are their Parishes? Is it not the Parishioners who determine this situation by their decisions?"

Well this is true, it is up to the parish to support the priest properly financially, and if not, then well he may have to work and Matushka may have to as well.

Brendan

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« Reply #128 on: May 20, 2004, 02:07:04 PM »

The salary thing drillsdown into another inadequacy by jurisdiction.

In the OCA you probably get more service/$$ since more services are offered on average and priest salaries are lower.  While in GOA parishes, you have a less services but better paid priests.  I don't know if this is a function of richer parishioners, the parish sacrificing priest salary for other ministries/projects, different mentality or some combo of this, but this is reality.
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« Reply #129 on: May 20, 2004, 02:54:28 PM »

The salary thing drillsdown into another inadequacy by jurisdiction.

In the OCA you probably get more service/$$ since more services are offered on average and priest salaries are lower.  While in GOA parishes, you have a less services but better paid priests.  I don't know if this is a function of richer parishioners, the parish sacrificing priest salary for other ministries/projects, different mentality or some combo of this, but this is reality.

I think you are right. Elisha.
I think my little ACROD parish gets an awful lot of work out of our priest and his rather meager salary.
I don't know the OCA. I do know there are parish guidelines "suggested" in GOA by the archdiocese. In the ACROD the guidelines are a bit more than just suggestions - but they're pretty small to start with and to pay less is rather sinful in itself.  Both jurisdictions' levels reflect parish size (and age/status - missions being less burdened) and exceptions can be made. The GOA parishes tend to be larger and better able to pay more also. Many Greek priests are again learning that if they offer a fuller liturgical schedule - "we will come", eventually Smiley

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« Reply #130 on: May 20, 2004, 03:09:40 PM »

The salary thing drillsdown into another inadequacy by jurisdiction.

In the OCA you probably get more service/$$ since more services are offered on average and priest salaries are lower.  While in GOA parishes, you have a less services but better paid priests.  I don't know if this is a function of richer parishioners, the parish sacrificing priest salary for other ministries/projects, different mentality or some combo of this, but this is reality.

As far as the OCA this issue came up last Sunday as our Rector Priest was sharing his experiences in the previous week where he spent several days working with an ailing Parish out of state. It is my understanding that in the OCA, the Diocese advises each parish as to what they should be paying the priest -- something comparable to what a professional with a similar level of education and experience would make in the local area...However, it is up to the Parishioners to determine exactly what the salary ends up being....so one ends up with situations like:

To afford a bigger mortgage, roof repairs (insert expense here)  -- "let's lower the priest's salary when the new one comes in next month"

It is a downside to the system....but with freedom comes responsibility...and compared to how the RCC operates Orthodox Christianity allows the Parishioners enough administtaive freedom to succeed or fail as a Parish -- to let the fruits of their tree be known.

In the RCC wealthy Parishes support Parishes with less wealth through the supervision of the diocese...This is in concept a good idea -- stewardship. I know our Parish helps support a mission in another town over 120 miles away. There is also talk of our Parish planting another mission in a town maybe only 20 miles away because we have grown so much and are literally bursting at the seams.

In comparison, the RCC is adminstered with a corporate and almost military-like approach....the effect in my opinion is a Chruch that if judging from the buildings seems healthy....but if all the news in our media today were not enough....

At the end of every RC mass when the congregation is told:

"The Mass is ended...."

and the congregation responds

"Thanks be to God" It very often sounds like a sigh of relief. Roll Eyes

I know there will RCs who smile at this last one because it is so true.

I will galdly take all the jrusidictional issues, and the possibility of being in a parish that might very well fail...if it means being able to worship in a truly reverant way with fellow Parishioners who are not "relievedieved" when the Liturgy is over and not trying to kill each other to see who can get out of the parking lot first. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #131 on: May 20, 2004, 05:47:43 PM »

This thread has drifted from its initial purpose....this board is not intended for debatate - please move those to the Orthodox-Catholic or Free for all board in the future.
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