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Author Topic: Catholics discovering Orthodoxy  (Read 23279 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2004, 08:43:14 PM »

Quote
Do you feel just a wee bit of the beauty of your Divine Liturgy is lost when it is totally English (don't get me wrong, I understand English does not mean loss of incense, degradation of icons or your holy sanctuaries, etc.)?

No.
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« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2004, 09:08:28 PM »

No.

When one hears the Liturgy for the first time in a language which is comprehensible to them (like English) one realizes the  beauty is in the words and their meaning.

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« Reply #47 on: May 18, 2004, 09:10:29 PM »


I am glad I came here after I converted....I probably would have been turned off if I came before I discovered Orthodoxy.

Indeed, spartacus, indeed.
This is a dreadful display of pettiness. All of us should be ashamed, myself included, to welcome a joyful new convert with this jurisdictional junk. It demeans Christ's Church and is juvenile, unnecessary, and uncalled for.

Demetri   :'(
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« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2004, 09:13:44 PM »

Spartacus,

Greetings!

I am glad that you have found peace. I myself am Roman Catholic and considering Orthodoxy. I do disagree with you on your opinions on celibacy and the Catholic priesthood, but I will say that I am gald you have found peace, and please pray that I may also find peace.

In Christ,
Ben
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« Reply #49 on: May 18, 2004, 09:39:06 PM »

Do you feel just a wee bit of the beauty of your Divine Liturgy is lost when it is totally English (don't get me wrong, I understand English does not mean loss of incense, degradation of icons or your holy sanctuaries, etc.)?

I think that is true. Especially in the Greek church because the services and chanting were originally written in Greek.
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« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2004, 10:39:35 PM »

This is a dreadful display of pettiness. All of us should be ashamed, myself included, to welcome a joyful new convert with this jurisdictional junk. It demeans Christ's Church and is juvenile, unnecessary, and uncalled for.

Well said, Demitri.
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« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2004, 10:41:38 PM »

[I think that is true. Especially in the Greek church because the services and chanting were originally written in Greek. ]

There are plenty of CD's available of Byzantine Chant in English to prove your statement wrong.

The old Baba's in my childhood parish used to say the same thing regarding Slavonic.  You know the ones who children are no longer Orthodox and whose grandchildren refer to the Orthodox Catholic Church as 'Baba's Church!'

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« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2004, 11:09:15 PM »

Indeed, spartacus, indeed.
This is a dreadful display of pettiness. All of us should be ashamed, myself included, to welcome a joyful new convert with this jurisdictional junk. It demeans Christ's Church and is juvenile, unnecessary, and uncalled for.

Demetri   :'(

He asked questions. I tried my best to answer them.
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« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2004, 01:26:12 AM »

I'm sorry if I offended, spartacus. I really was just attempting to answer your questions and define ROCOR and their position for you as you asked.  Please, stick around and help keep poor slobs like me from delving too much into the 'political' side of things.
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« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2004, 01:31:25 AM »

I'm sorry too.  Just wanted to clarify things.
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« Reply #55 on: May 19, 2004, 01:42:37 AM »

I think that is true. Especially in the Greek church because the services and chanting were originally written in Greek.

Greek and other foreing languages are beautiful.....I used to be fluent in French...

From my perspective though...My family has been in this country for centuries....They are a mix of German, Irish, Hungarian, French, and Native American. My wife is 2nd generatiuon Polish and Russian and speaks only English (Her grandfather was Russian Orthodox until he immigrated here and became frustrated with his local parish here in the States).

I think in order for any Liturgical service to have meaningful participation the words must have meaning to the congregation. If Parishes choose only to worship in a foreign language then I dare say most of those parishes will die a slow death as immigrant families assimilate into the American experience. I know very well how family- and tradition-oriented Americans of Greek descent are...Hey that is great...but how many non-Greek converts do they attract?

English, Spanish and French are the primary tongues in North America.  At Pentecost when the Apostles went into the streets speaking in tongues they were speaking languages people the people there could understand.

When I was Catholic I attended a couple nmasses in Latin...it was an interesting experience but it is not something I would to do "religiously". 16 years ago there were no Orthodox Parishes in my area with English Liturgies. I thank God that today there are or otherwise my family would not have discovered Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2004, 01:56:27 AM »

Spartacus,

Greetings!

I am glad that you have found peace. I myself am Roman Catholic and considering Orthodoxy. I do disagree with you on your opinions on celibacy and the Catholic priesthood, but I will say that I am gald you have found peace, and please pray that I may also find peace.

In Christ,
Ben

Ben I see that you are unabashedly pro-life...That is another big problem I had with the RCC here in the states...before my conversion I wrote my local diocese 5times and two neighboring diocese three times over the course of 14 months asking when they would be finally speak oput about how pro-abrortion politicians should not present themselves for Holy COmmunion...and also asking that if I was seeing things incorrectly...Why they are still allowed to Holy COmmunion....(I asked my parish priest and he told me to task the Diocese) I never once got a response from any Diocese ...until I wrote them telling me to take my name off their mailing list....then I got an immediate reply...but I am still waiting for the answer they promised me. This I think is the height of hypocrasy.

I attribute this to a celibate priesthood...Without the experince of being a parent I do not think most of the priests in the RCC fully grasp this issue -- despite what they might think.


Sorry don't mean to dump on Catholicism -- I still love and pray for it and its parishioners -- but I too am very pro-Life and probably would not be here today if I was conceived a few years later than I was because my mother was only 16 when I was conceived...Most likely I would have become one of the more than 30 million victims of this American Hoplocaust....so I get a little emotional about this....This however was not the case until my wife and I tried to conceive, misscarried twice and finally had three kids. The experience of becoming a parent deepened my understanding of this issue in ways I do not think celibate people ever can.
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« Reply #57 on: May 19, 2004, 02:05:01 AM »

I'm sorry if I offended, spartacus.

No I am not offended...One must have pride to be offended and that is something I have worked very hard to decrease in my life.

I was though rather put off by the whole thing. I live in what is probably the second or third largest highest concentration of people in the US...I feel blessed to have found a healthy Orthodox Parish (with English Liturgy)...and then I get hit with all these cannonical, political and adminstartive issues -- that I was previously only sligtly aware of and quite frankly -- don't concern my family and I all that much as it relates to our faith and our participation in our very young, healthy and growing Orthodox Parish.

I explored judiasm as an adolescent even going so far as to attend some Hebrew classes and a month-long summer camp in another state -- And I thought Jewish people bickered and argued over every little thing! Roll Eyes
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« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2004, 02:52:52 AM »

I was though rather put off by the whole thing. I live in what is probably the second or third largest highest concentration of people in the US...I feel blessed to have found a healthy Orthodox Parish (with English Liturgy)...and then I get hit with all these cannonical, political and adminstartive issues -- that I was previously only sligtly aware of and quite frankly -- don't concern my family and I all that much as it relates to our faith and our participation in our very young, healthy and growing Orthodox Parish.

I explored judiasm as an adolescent even going so far as to attend some Hebrew classes and a month-long summer camp in another state -- And I thought Jewish people bickered and argued over every little thing! Roll Eyes
First off, welcome and congratulations to you and your family. I too am a convert, but seeing as I currently live in Greece, my journey to Orthodoxy was a little different to yours Grin.

Don't concern yourself too much with the politics and juresdictional bickering. If you read through the history of the church from Acts onwards, you will quickly discover that such struggles have constantly dogged the church. It comes from the fact that the church is made up of sinful people. Satan is also our sworn enemy and does what he does to those he hates and God permits this for our benefit so that we may have greater opportunities to grow in patience, humility and obedience. We are the body of Christ, but the vast majority of us are not perfect yet, and our primary concern is to work on perfecting the bit of the church that we have some control over, namely ourselves Wink.

God bless,

John.
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« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2004, 08:32:07 AM »

Well if I were to move to Greece, I would go to the Greek Orthodox Chruch...In Ethiopia, The Ethiopian Orthodox Church....

I can understand the desire to maintain a "Church-in-exile" if you will....given the circumstances of Russia...it just seems odd to choose to be separate from OCA which was grafted from the Church whose roots go to St. Petersburg...and was severed by the communists.

Again this is the perspective of a new convert...I guess my question is...do Parishioners in ROCOR in the US consider themselves Orthodox Christians who happen to be of Russian descent...Or Russians in-exile who happen to be Orthodox Christians?

From my experience, just Orthodox with maybe the Russian in front of it but more often than not they are just "Eastern Orthodox" or "Orthodox Christian."  Of course where I live, the word "Rusian" can be almost suicidal.  

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« Reply #60 on: May 19, 2004, 08:45:06 AM »

Greek and other foreing languages are beautiful.....I used to be fluent in French...

From my perspective though...My family has been in this country for centuries....They are a mix of German, Irish, Hungarian, French, and Native American. My wife is 2nd generatiuon Polish and Russian and speaks only English (Her grandfather was Russian Orthodox until he immigrated here and became frustrated with his local parish here in the States).

I think in order for any Liturgical service to have meaningful participation the words must have meaning to the congregation. If Parishes choose only to worship in a foreign language then I dare say most of those parishes will die a slow death as immigrant families assimilate into the American experience. I know very well how family- and tradition-oriented Americans of Greek descent are...Hey that is great...but how many non-Greek converts do they attract?

English, Spanish and French are the primary tongues in North America.  At Pentecost when the Apostles went into the streets speaking in tongues they were speaking languages people the people there could understand.

When I was Catholic I attended a couple nmasses in Latin...it was an interesting experience but it is not something I would to do "religiously". 16 years ago there were no Orthodox Parishes in my area with English Liturgies. I thank God that today there are or otherwise my family would not have discovered Orthodoxy.

They are greeks!  noone converts to them for a reason. Wink

Sorry Spartacus this is a long-standing joke between me and a couple of hte ethnic greeks here.  I half-heartingly sling some insult at the greeks (only in jest of course) and they say "poor kid.  It must be so hard for him not being a Greek." (of course in jest again)

Seriously, I find English services to be amazing.  When I was a Roman, I was very deeply intrenched in the traditionalist movement. I am very much used to Latin.  Amazingly, none of the languages Liturgy is served in traditionally (English, Russian, or Greek) actually sound good to my ears, so I might as well be able to understand what is bing said  Tongue.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #61 on: May 19, 2004, 08:52:19 AM »

Spartacus:

Many years and congratulations on your reception into the Holy Orthodox Faith.  

To answer your question, the ROCOR mission parish I attend is made up of all converts with the exception of about five people (all born after their parents and in some cases older siblings converted).  As to how many are former Romans I do not know.  I do know this past Pascha a family of 4 former BC's were Baptized and there may be others as well.  There is also one Catechumen (me) who is also a former Roman.

A note on your terminology.  Neither you nor anyone else who is a convert from the Roman Church is a former Catholic.  In fact you are all in the [Orthodox--that is true] Catholic Church now.

Hmm.  Seems RB has yet to make it over here.  Therefore I am still taking bets. Grin Wink Tongue

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« Reply #62 on: May 19, 2004, 08:56:03 AM »

You will also find a great number of converts from the Roman Church here.  There are some who have finished the conversion process and have already been recieved.  And then there are at least a few here who like me are still somewhere along the path awaiting illumination.

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« Reply #63 on: May 19, 2004, 09:02:13 AM »

They are greeks!  noone converts to them for a reason. Wink

Sorry Spartacus this is a long-standing joke between me and a couple of hte ethnic greeks here.  I half-heartingly sling some insult at the greeks (only in jest of course) and they say "poor kid.  It must be so hard for him not being a Greek." (of course in jest again)

According to Josef Idiovanovich Zollarovsky  Wink

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« Reply #64 on: May 19, 2004, 09:44:00 AM »

Snort!
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« Reply #65 on: May 19, 2004, 10:04:55 AM »

Hey you just called my Pappy an idiot!  Why I oughta....

very funny, but technically it would be Ivan as my first name is a derivitive of John.

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« Reply #66 on: May 19, 2004, 11:40:43 AM »

Hmm.  Seems RB has yet to make it over here.  Therefore I am still taking bets. Grin Wink Tongue

Joe Zollars

Dude, that was my idea - check page 2.
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« Reply #67 on: May 19, 2004, 11:57:46 AM »

Dude, that was my idea - check page 2.

Giving odds or "Even" money?

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« Reply #68 on: May 19, 2004, 12:10:11 PM »

Spartacus --  Welcome.  I'm also a former cradle RC, entered the Orthodox Church about 4 years ago (OCA).  I have found that over the years my views about the RCC have moderated themselves somewhat, probably because I have been away from the RCC for quite some time now (I spent some time in the Eastern Catholic Church before becoming Orthodox).  I would say that most OCA places I have been have some former Roman Catholics there.  Glad to here things are going well at St. Joe's, I've heard good things about that parish.

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« Reply #69 on: May 19, 2004, 12:47:17 PM »

sorry Elisha.  Ddin't mean to steal your idea.  What odds are you giving?

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« Reply #70 on: May 19, 2004, 01:10:20 PM »

sorry Elisha.  Ddin't mean to steal your idea.  What odds are you giving?

Joe Zollars

No need to apologize.  I was hoping the facetiousness in my posts would be obvious.

Anyway, sorry guys, no actual odds or money made/taken.  I'm a low stakes gambler myself (generally <$10).  IMO, any "gambling" money should be money already set aside for entertainment purposes and any other should have been given to the church - and I'm probably liberal for EO in this view!

Sidebar:  I wonder if there are any professional gamblers (their livelihood/main income source) that are members of Orthodox parishes.  Since there is at least one parish in LV and a couple in Reno, I'm curious.    I should probably just create another thread to discuss this.
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« Reply #71 on: May 19, 2004, 01:17:35 PM »

That would be an interesting thread.
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« Reply #72 on: May 19, 2004, 01:33:26 PM »

Dear Spartacus:

I know you, and others, are awaiting expectantly to hear a word or two from RB. Wink

In the meantime, allow me to interject my own welcome to OC.net!  This is THE place for you now that you are Orthodox; the best there is, bar none! (Anastasios, Phil, and all the rest of administration, you owe me one! Cheesy)

Although a cradle (pre-Vatican II) and "devout" Roman Catholic like you were, I am here to learn more about the Eastern Church(es) and not to convert.

I would not convince you and your family to revert to the RCC. This is the "role" some posters here have assigned to RB. Grin

Your journey of faith is personal and I am certain, by the looks of it, you will have a rewarding home in Orthodoxy. The OCA seems to suit RC converts because it is probably the only Orthodox jurisdiction that is consciously open to diversity. (Let's put aside the Antiochian Western Riters.)

There are three things that struck me in your introductory and subsequent posts.

(1) I wonder why you were not, or chose to be not, confirmed into the Catholic Church.

(2) It seems you left your parish in disgust due to many things but culminating in the criminal indiscretion of your parish priest (is he the Pastor?). (BTW, the priest is not a pedophile, the 2 teenage female victims having been beyond pre-pubescence.)

Wheaton has 3 Roman Catholic parishes: St. Daniel, St. Mark, and St. Michael. Even if you were not allowed to transfer your family registration (there are pastoral reasons for this), you could have attended services in either of the other two, or in adjoining cities like Glen Ellyn, Villa Park, or Naperville. Nobody could have prevented you from attending other parishes within your neighborhood.

(3) It's your opinion that the sexual scandals that plagued, and continue to plague, the Roman Catholic Church will eventually lead to the total collapse of the RCC in the U.S., citing the celibate priesthood as the main cause.

I don't agree with the cause you cited and the conclusion you derived therefrom.

In the audit report done by an outside party recently submitted to the USCCB, there is a preponderance of cases of ephebophilia, or sexual attraction from an adult male to a pubescent male or female (up to 18). A lesser number of cases involved sexual attraction to pre-pubescent male or female, which is pedophilia.

The audit confirms many and various psychological studies that found married and unmarried (e.g., celibate priests) males are both likely to commit ephebophilia or pedophilia. This explains the non-exclusivity of these types of sexual indiscretions to celibate priests in the Catholic Church: such activities pervade other religious denominations and society in general. Only the Catholic Church was thrust into the public's eye.

As to the eventual total collapse of the RCC in the U.S., I am skeptical of your dire predictions for I cannot imagine the loss of about 64 million U.S. Catholics, and increasing at the rate of about 2 million (conversions and baptisms) annually.

Let us just examine the State of Illinois, which is divided into 6 dioceses. The Archdiocese of Chicago alone has about 2.4 million, with your former Diocese of Joliet reporting 620,000 Catholics. All told, Illinois has about 4 million Roman Catholics (excluding Eastern Catholics) spread over 1,055 parishes.  

How in heaven do you foresee the collapse of the RCC in Illinois, thus jumpstarting the eventual collapse of the RCC in the U.S.? You will soon discover that the number of parishes of your former diocese, with 133, might have more than the number of Orthodox parishes throughout Illinois.

At any rate, I sincerely wish you and your family a meaningful stay at OCA's St. Joseph in Wheaton.

Christ is Risen!

Amado




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« Reply #73 on: May 19, 2004, 01:36:17 PM »


IMO, any "gambling" money should be money already set aside for entertainment purposes and any other should have been given to the church - and I'm probably liberal for EO in this view!

Or, sort of like when someone wins a 50/50 raffle at our parish and then promptly donates their half (back) to the parish. Been there... Smiley

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« Reply #74 on: May 19, 2004, 01:53:17 PM »

I know you, and others, are awaiting expectantly to hear a word or two from RB. Wink

Not necessarily - just that past behaviour usually predicts future behaviour.
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« Reply #75 on: May 19, 2004, 03:23:19 PM »

There are three things that struck me in your introductory and subsequent posts.

(1) I wonder why you were not, or chose to be not, confirmed into the Catholic Church.

Actually I was eventually confirmed in 2000...I decide to be like most Catholics I know and just try to ignore the personal differences I had with Church teachings. Cheesy It did not work for me.

Quote
(2) It seems you left your parish in disgust due to many things but culminating in the criminal indiscretion of your parish priest (is he the Pastor?). (BTW, the priest is not a pedophile, the 2 teenage female victims having been beyond pre-pubescence.)

Yes I was ready to find a new home before the sexual abuse charges...and an adult man penetrating the vagina of a 14 year old girl is abhorent no matter how you want to parse it. It was this incident though which caused a change in my wife's heart. We had tried registering our children for CCD in another Parish on two separate occasions and both times were told we could not...and this was before the criminal charges (We did not like either priest at ST. Peter's and indeed reamined registered and active at our old parish for almost six years after we moved here). So when these charges came to light...it was just the final straw for her. Her heart could take no more and she just stopped going. I continued to take our children...but after a while....Well let me just say that my wife and I take our family and our marriage very seriously. I needed to find a new home that would be good for our family. I was willing to practice the faith I was reared in despite my misgivings because my wife was not ready to make the spiritual journey with me.

I'll go all day long with you if you want about the many theological and administartive issues in the RCC, I have problems with.....

Quote
(3) It's your opinion that the sexual scandals that plagued, and continue to plague, the Roman Catholic Church will eventually lead to the total collapse of the RCC in the U.S., citing the celibate priesthood as the main cause.

No it won't be the scandal. It will be the settlement and legal costs. It will also be the loss of credibility through the continued hypocrasy of all but two US diocese that  continue to allow public figures who work against Church teachings...to still receive all the sacrements as if they were actually in Communion in the Church. Huh It will also be the continued need to import priests from foreign countries because they can not attract enough US men to the celibate preisthood. You can talk numbner of cnverts all you want...Parishioners are leaving or have just stopped attending. Registration numbers and donations figures are not the only measure of a healthy Christian community......


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I don't agree with the cause you cited and the conclusion you derived therefrom.

In the audit report done by an outside party recently submitted to the USCCB, there is a preponderance of cases of ephebophilia, or sexual attraction from an adult male to a pubescent male or female (up to 18). A lesser number of cases involved sexual attraction to pre-pubescent male or female, which is pedophilia.

The audit confirms many and various psychological studies that found married and unmarried (e.g., celibate priests) males are both likely to commit ephebophilia or pedophilia. This explains the non-exclusivity of these types of sexual indiscretions to celibate priests in the Catholic Church: such activities pervade other religious denominations and society in general. Only the Catholic Church was thrust into the public's eye.

This is a perfect example of where the RCC makes its fatal error in this issue. It is not the actual act of the criminals. It is the way in which the RCC handles or rather does not handle these issues when they began to arise and continue to arise today. I submit to you that if the RCC had married priests who had children of their own flesh and blood...this would not be the case today!

A child is statistically much more likely to be abused by a public school teacher...but what would happen to the school district administrators who became aware of a possible criminal act(s) against a child and then transferred the suspected teacher to a different school where they continued to teach children? Under Illinois statute they would be guilty of felony charges. So why is it so wrong to expect an even higher standard of accounatability from the Bishops and preists? The First Ammendment and sanctitity of the confessional is no excuse for the Church to commit criminal acts...and failure of school officals to report suspected Child abuse is a crimianl act in Illinois...this is what we saw in Boston and it looks like Boston was not only the opnly place this was ocurring.....Right now the Rockford Diocese is in contempt of court in Kane county for not cooperating fully enough in the investigation...and this matter is not going away just because Father Campobello copped a plea.

 If the RCC wants to reduce its liability it should get out of the education business.


Please continue to throw arguments at me...I used to make the same arguments you are making now...I used to be an apologist for the RCC and still have my Apologetics literature...please continue...Perhaps we can enlighten each other? Smiley

Before we go further though I must ask for your marital status and to know how many children you have...I think that is only fair since I have shared that here...also what if any position do you have in the RCC?


Also since you are so close by I would like to extend an invitation for you to come visit a young, healthy, growing, vibrant Christian Parish like nothing you will ever see in the RCC in or around Chicago...come to our Parish in Wheaton Any Sunday for 9:30 Divine Liturgy...No one will try to sell you.....Just be polite and call ahead so we can reserve you a seat where you see the worship service fully...and don't surprised if you see any Roman Catholic Nuns or Seminarians visiting there too Grin

It is worth the trip if only to experience the Way the Roman Catholic Church worshipped prior to the 11th century.
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #76 on: May 19, 2004, 03:30:32 PM »

Is there an over/under yet for how long it will take RB to respond, telling spartacus to go back to the RCC? Grin

Congrats spartacus! and Many Years!

Spartacus and any former catholics  are free to go where they please. One judgement day, we will give account of all we have done.

Like I said before, I was born catholic and I will die catholic by the grace of God. People think that switching churches will get them closer to God or to fulfill some empty emotional need.

That is the only good thing about it. That they didn't go protestant.  Orthodoxy is better the protetanism anytime.



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spartacus
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« Reply #77 on: May 19, 2004, 03:41:15 PM »

I was born catholic and I will die catholic

SO will I . Catholic with a small "c".
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #78 on: May 19, 2004, 03:46:48 PM »

SO will I . Catholic with a small "c".

a catholic is a catholic. no such thing as small "c" big "C"

That is a protestant invention.

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Schultz
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« Reply #79 on: May 19, 2004, 03:51:07 PM »

a troll is a troll, too.

That is not a Protestant invention.
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« Reply #80 on: May 19, 2004, 03:52:35 PM »

Spartacus,

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Well if I were to move to Greece, I would go to the Greek Orthodox Chruch...In Ethiopia, The Ethiopian Orthodox Church....

Well, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is "non-Chalcedonian", to put it gently.

As for overlapping "juristictions", that's a question you could pose to a lot of people in the new world (you will see, quite commonly, an OCA, Antiochian, and a Greek parish in the same city, and/or overlapping diocese.)

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I can understand the desire to maintain a "Church-in-exile" if you will....given the circumstances of Russia...it just seems odd to choose to be separate from OCA which was grafted from the Church whose roots go to St. Petersburg...and was severed by the communists.

According to the "old" ROCOR (their tone and opinion have changed on a lot of things in recent years), the OCA is a schism, as they believed the administration of all Russian Churches Abroad were...well "Russian Orthodox Churchs Abroad" ("ROCA" is another acronym for "ROCOR", with "Abroad" instead of "Outside of Russia" at the end.)   However what is now the "OCA" broke with ROCOR, by appealing to the Moscow Patriarchate as it's "mother Church" and eventually receiving "autecephalus" status from them.  ROCOR did not recognize the MP at all, and saw this as a double betrayal.  A similar situation occured in Europe, when a chunk of ROCOR's presence there broke with her, and was received under the mantle of the Ecumenical Patriarchate (though it lacked the sting that the OCA's appeal to the MP did, for reasons mentioned elsewhere in this thread.)

ROCOR, with time, increasingly distanced itself not only from the MP and it's own breakaways, but also with what most people understand to be the "official" or "canonical" Orthodox churches.  This was very much the case after 1965, when then Patriarch Athenagoras (Patriarch of Constantinople) "lifted" the anathemas of the Orthodox Church against Roman Catholicism.  Of course, no single heirarch could do this - indeed, it's arguable that no one could do this, since truth does not change (the only possible change would be one amongst the Latins themselves, so as to no longer fall under the Church's anathemas.)  However, this did happen, and it created quite a scandal.  The ROCOR also became increasingly concerned with the implications of the "calendar reform" which had occured in some local Orthodox Churches, and aligned herself with those Churches which had broken from these "official churches" over this issue (typically called the "Old Calendarists".)  Up until relatively recently, ROCOR was in communion with the Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece (Old Calendarists), for example.

However, with this said, ROCOR has more or less purged herself of those who are not happy with her new course (reproachment with the MP and "world Orthodoxy" in general, which ROCOR once regarded as being comprimised by a heretical ecumenism) and who were unwilling to overlook the doctrinal and canonical "problems" of so called "official/canonical Orthodoxy", and is well on her way towards becoming part of the MP (though ecclessiastical communion would come first.)  This change on ROCOR's part has been met with a change on the part of most other official local churches - up until a few years ago, you'd find most such persons (members of the OCA in particular) having little if nothing nice to say about ROCOR (the terms "uncanonical" and "schismatic" come to mind.)

Seraphim
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« Reply #81 on: May 19, 2004, 03:53:28 PM »

a catholic is a catholic. no such thing as small "c" big "C"

That is a protestant invention.

Ok I will inform my Parish priest and the OCA that RB says we need to remove the word "catholic" when we recite the Nicaen creed ever divine Liturgy. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #82 on: May 19, 2004, 03:54:54 PM »

a troll is a troll, too.

That is not a Protestant invention.

Oh schultz... did I hit a nerve?

But please don'y use flatery on me. Kiss   It won't get you anywhere. Wink
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« Reply #83 on: May 19, 2004, 03:55:23 PM »

Oh come on, the Greek brothers who invented church slavonic translated the word as "soborniyy", and that long before the schism, never mind the Protestant Reformation.
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« Reply #84 on: May 19, 2004, 03:59:21 PM »

Ok I will inform my Parish priest and the OCA that RB says we need to remove the word "catholic" when we recite the Nicaen creed ever divine Liturgy. Roll Eyes

Come on Spartacus. You were a former catholic. You know what your former faith taught in regards to who/is a catholic. why is that a surprise to you. But I believe that my church extends the courtesy to the orthodox because of the recognition of their sacraments and valid orders.

I didn't mean to say that you were not a catholic but just not in the fullest sense of the word as taught by your former church.

The protestants recite the creed. Does that make them catholic? No it does not.
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« Reply #85 on: May 19, 2004, 04:03:36 PM »

Come on Spartacus. You were a former catholic. You know what your former faith taught in regards to who/is a catholic. why is that a surprise to you. But I believe that my church extends the courtesy to the orthodox because of the recognition of their sacraments and valid orders.

I didn't mean to say that you were not a catholic but just not in the fullest sense of the word as taught by your former church.

The protestants recite the creed. Does that make them catholic? No it does not.


just yankin' your chain man Kiss
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Schultz
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« Reply #86 on: May 19, 2004, 04:07:08 PM »

Quote
Oh schultz... did I hit a nerve?

Dude, I'm Catholic and as the song goes, "have been since the day I was born".

Still doesn't change the fact that you're a troll.  

Where's Billy Goat Gruff when you need him?

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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #87 on: May 19, 2004, 04:07:39 PM »

just yankin' your chain man Kiss

I really hope the best for you and your family.  Smiley
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« Reply #88 on: May 19, 2004, 04:09:08 PM »

Dude, I'm Catholic and as the song goes, "have been since the day I was born".

Still doesn't change the fact that you're a troll.  

Where's Billy Goat Gruff when you need him?


Schultz...  "It is the little Euro Troll"

If you are going to use flattery then for goodness sake get it right.
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Schultz
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« Reply #89 on: May 19, 2004, 04:11:52 PM »

I'm not one to make such ethno-cultural distinctions.

A troll is a troll is a troll, no matter where he comes from.

"Dawn take you all and be stone to you!"
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