Topic: New Ukrainian Catholic leader to ask Pope for patriarchal status

[Paisius]

Two days after his March 27 enthronement as head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Major Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk said he would ask Pope Benedict to raise the Eastern Catholic church to the dignity of a patriarchate.

Link

[Schultz]

Good luck with that.

[Monk Vasyl]

Here we go, again.     Bless them, they are a persistent lot.

[AMM]

I don't really see what it matters if it happens.

[Iconodule]

Is it true that cardinals outrank Patriarchs in the Catholic Church?

[mike]

Is it true that cardinals outrank Patriarchs in the Catholic Church?

AFAIK Patriarch is just a honorific title with no practical features. On the other hand Cardinal title gives the possibility to vote for the Pope (and be voted too).

[Monk Vasyl]

Is it true that cardinals outrank Patriarchs in the Catholic Church?

Generally, certain positions will lead to the bishop becoming a cardinal.  Archbishops for the See of Boston, within a couple of years of their appointment are elevated to cardinal. Previous Major Archbishops (sounds so military...lol) have all been made cardinals.  It will only be a matter of time before the new Major Archbishop will be enrolled into the College of Cardinals. Tho, due to his age, they may wait a bit longer than usual. 

[Iconodule]

Is it true that cardinals outrank Patriarchs in the Catholic Church?

Generally, certain positions will lead to the bishop becoming a cardinal.  Archbishops for the See of Boston, within a couple of years of their appointment are elevated to cardinal. Previous Major Archbishops (sounds so military...lol) have all been made cardinals.  It will only be a matter of time before the new Major Archbishop will be enrolled into the College of Cardinals. Tho, due to his age, they may wait a bit longer than usual.  

But if a Patriarch be not a cardinal, he will be outranked by a cardinal, yes?

[AMM]

He's going to be a Cardinal as his predecessor was, and is addressed as Patriarch unofficially.  The question is do they make it official, meaning changing the title on paper.

I don't see why anyone cares.

[ialmisry]

Is it true that cardinals outrank Patriarchs in the Catholic Church?

AFAIK Patriarch is just a honorific title with no practical features. On the other hand Cardinal title gives the possibility to vote for the Pope (and be voted too).

Actually, anyone (male and in communion that is) can be elected.  You don't even have to be a deacon.  I thought all of their patrirarchs were cardinals ex officio.

[elijahmaria]

Good luck with that.

 

Cynic!!

[ialmisry]

Good luck with that.

Yeah, given the recent play up in the Vatican News services about Pat. Kirill and Met. Hilarion and improving relations, it would be interesting.

[Hermogenes]

Is it true that cardinals outrank Patriarchs in the Catholic Church?

No. Patriarchs of the Eastern Rite may be cardinals, however, in which case they always belong to the order of cardinal bishops. But a number of Latin Rite archbishops have the title patriarch, such as the patriarch of Venice, the patriarch of Lisbon, and the patriarch of the Gauls. They are normally cardinals, but the red hat is never automatic. And the Latin patriarch of Jerusalem isn't a cardinal, either in fact or by custom.

[Iconodule]

Is it true that cardinals outrank Patriarchs in the Catholic Church?

No. Patriarchs of the Eastern Rite may be cardinals, however, in which case they always belong to the order of cardinal bishops. But a number of Latin Rite archbishops have the title patriarch, such as the patriarch of Venice, the patriarch of Lisbon, and the patriarch of the Gauls. They are normally cardinals, but the red hat is never automatic. And the Latin patriarch of Jerusalem isn't a cardinal, either in fact or by custom.

Okay, but hypothetically speaking, if a bishop is a patriarch, but not a cardinal, would a non-patriarch cardinal outrank him?

[mike]

Outrank where? In what area? You are now trying to compare color and size.

Cardinal is a function and Patriarch is a rank. Cardinal is the second highest function in the Catholic Church. Patriarch is the second highest title of the Catholic Church.

[ialmisry]

Is it true that cardinals outrank Patriarchs in the Catholic Church?

No. Patriarchs of the Eastern Rite may be cardinals, however, in which case they always belong to the order of cardinal bishops. But a number of Latin Rite archbishops have the title patriarch, such as the patriarch of Venice, the patriarch of Lisbon, and the patriarch of the Gauls. They are normally cardinals, but the red hat is never automatic. And the Latin patriarch of Jerusalem isn't a cardinal, either in fact or by custom.

He isn't sui juris either. Just another Latin bishop.

[Jakub]

If it wasn't given previously I would not hold my breath, heck the ink of his signature hasn't dryed yet...

[elijahmaria]

I think that he must make the request and he needs to make it immediately and anyone who thinks that Pope Benedict doesn't or didn't know it was coming must live under a mushroom cap.

It is the best thing for Ukriane and most likely will be good for the entire region, including Russia, though I expect the MP would not necessarily share those sediments....pun.

[kijabeboy03]

If the Eastern Catholic Churches are Rome's sisters, then why do they need the Vatican's permission to change the title of one of their heads? Shouldn't the decision of the Holy Synod of the Ukrainian Catholic Church be official enough?

[podkarpatska]

If the Eastern Catholic Churches are Rome's sisters, then why do they need the Vatican's permission to change the title of one of their heads? Shouldn't the decision of the Holy Synod of the Ukrainian Catholic Church be official enough?

Indeed, those are the types of questions that I often pose to my Eastern Catholic friends in the context of what being a 'sui juris' Church means.

BTW, the new Major-Archbishop has to make this request as it is expected by his flock. I would anticipate that the answer from Rome will be as it has been for some years.  The Greek Catholics will honor him as Patriarch anyway, and the rest of us will use the Major-Archbishop title.

[kijabeboy03]

No doubt, tho' perhaps Metropolitan Hilarion's response to Metropolitan Svyatoslav's enthronement will embolden Rome to approve a change?

http://www.ugcc.org.ua/news_single.0.html?&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=4832&cHash=e1343ac7308e74dfdb5ece2d1251b62a

[Schultz]

Good luck with that.

 

Cynic!!

Just a realist.

[podkarpatska]

No doubt, tho' perhaps Metropolitan Hilarion's response to Metropolitan Svyatoslav's enthronement will embolden Rome to approve a change?

http://www.ugcc.org.ua/news_single.0.html?&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=4832&cHash=e1343ac7308e74dfdb5ece2d1251b62a

There was nothing on that link?

[mike]

You have to paste it into your browser. As you can see not the whole one is the active link.

[elijahmaria]

If the Eastern Catholic Churches are Rome's sisters, then why do they need the Vatican's permission to change the title of one of their heads? Shouldn't the decision of the Holy Synod of the Ukrainian Catholic Church be official enough?

If you actually read what the Archbishop has said, it becomes more clear, at least clear to me that the latest Ukrainian Patriarch is going to Rome to "explain" why the UGCC is a patriarchate in the traditional meaning and emergence of the term.  He will ask for the Pope's blessing.  He may receive it.  He may not.  He may yield to what the Pope tells him about public display of the title, he may not.

We are living in a brave new ecclesial world folks.  I am enjoying watching it unfold and am very happy to be alive in these invigorating times full of new saints and martyrs and renewed understandings of Church, Mystery, Mystical Body, Communion and Caritas.

Glory be to God!

[elijahmaria]

Good luck with that.

 

Cynic!!

Just a realist.

Here I thought I was a realist too...perhaps I am also an optimist!...

[mike]

If you actually read what the Archbishop has said, it becomes more clear, at least clear to me that the latest Ukrainian Patriarch is going to Rome to "explain" why the UGCC is a patriarchate in the traditional meaning and emergence of the term.  He will ask for the Pope's blessing.  He may receive it.  He may not.  He may yield to what the Pope tells him about public display of the title, he may not.

According to his own Church he is a Major Archbishop. His flock may call him an Ayatollah but they won't change the reality.

I really doubt he can disobey the Pope and start using the Patriarch title  without his approval. Can you prove it?

It clearly shows how in reality Pope treats with his Eastern flock.

[elijahmaria]

No doubt, tho' perhaps Metropolitan Hilarion's response to Metropolitan Svyatoslav's enthronement will embolden Rome to approve a change?

http://www.ugcc.org.ua/news_single.0.html?&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=4832&cHash=e1343ac7308e74dfdb5ece2d1251b62a

As I said the other day I don't believe this trip and its purposes will come as much of a shock to Pope Benedict since every audience has its advance agenda established in writing...and the Archbishop's own plans are not secret.

[Monk Vasyl]

No doubt, tho' perhaps Metropolitan Hilarion's response to Metropolitan Svyatoslav's enthronement will embolden Rome to approve a change?

http://www.ugcc.org.ua/news_single.0.html?&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=4832&cHash=e1343ac7308e74dfdb5ece2d1251b62a

What did Metropolitan Hilarion say?

[podkarpatska]

You have to paste it into your browser. As you can see not the whole one is the active link.

Thank you, the Google translation was awful, but I got the gist.

I wouldn't expect much of a change as Metropolitan Hilarion is not know for any history of kind words towards the Greek Catholics.

[elijahmaria]

If you actually read what the Archbishop has said, it becomes more clear, at least clear to me that the latest Ukrainian Patriarch is going to Rome to "explain" why the UGCC is a patriarchate in the traditional meaning and emergence of the term.  He will ask for the Pope's blessing.  He may receive it.  He may not.  He may yield to what the Pope tells him about public display of the title, he may not.

According to his own Church he is a Major Archbishop. His flock may call him an Ayatollah but they won't change the reality.

I really doubt he can disobey the Pope and start using the Patriarch title  without his approval. Can you prove it?

It clearly shows how in reality Pope treats with his Eastern flock.

If he does not use the title in that case, it will be because he chooses not to for the good of the whole Church.

You all act as if eastern bishops are impotent pee-stained old men who can't do anything without aid and assistance.

No.  IF the Unia has been treated badly, our bishops have as much to bear with that as anyone in the Vatican.  That is but one of the widely ignored elephants in the living room.

[podkarpatska]

If you actually read what the Archbishop has said, it becomes more clear, at least clear to me that the latest Ukrainian Patriarch is going to Rome to "explain" why the UGCC is a patriarchate in the traditional meaning and emergence of the term.  He will ask for the Pope's blessing.  He may receive it.  He may not.  He may yield to what the Pope tells him about public display of the title, he may not.

According to his own Church he is a Major Archbishop. His flock may call him an Ayatollah but they won't change the reality.

I really doubt he can disobey the Pope and start using the Patriarch title  without his approval. Can you prove it?

It clearly shows how in reality Pope treats with his Eastern flock.

It is the whole 'sui juris' issue again. With our without the Vatican's approval or disapproval, the UGCC faithful and clergy will call him Patriarch as they did to his predecessors. This would happen even if the official publications of the UGCC used the Major Archbishop title.

[mike]

You all act as if eastern bishops are impotent pee-stained old men who can't do anything without aid and assistance.

Election of each and every UC Bishop has to be approved by Vatican.

http://www.ugcc.org.ua./news_single.0.html?&L=4&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=3462&cHash=aabd94cf21407d36e72fb4d21aca9134&type=98

[elijahmaria]

You all act as if eastern bishops are impotent pee-stained old men who can't do anything without aid and assistance.

Election of each and every UC Bishop has to be approved by Vatican.

http://www.ugcc.org.ua./news_single.0.html?&L=4&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=3462&cHash=aabd94cf21407d36e72fb4d21aca9134&type=98

Unless there is some circumstance that is compelling concerning any one of the men put forward for election, the "approval" is a blessing on the chosen candidate.

There is a list of three names listed in rank order approved by the synod and sent to Rome.  How many times have we seen it that the first name on the list has not become bishop.  Only in Churches who have had very venal and sinful leadership, and are about to clone another one,  has Rome intervened to help them find a candidate more morally, spiritually and ecclesiastically suited to lead a diocese or a particular Church.

It's not at all a high handed conspiracy against anyone or any Church.

[kijabeboy03]

So there are no truly autocephalous or autonomous churches in modern Roman Catholicism then, just self-governing churches organized by rite?

[elijahmaria]

So there are no truly autocephalous or autonomous churches in modern Roman Catholicism then, just self-governing churches organized by rite?

Compared to what? Orthodoxy's "truly' autocephalous Churches?...the ones who don't need ANYONE's signature on the election of a new bishop or Metropolitan?

[kijabeboy03]

No offense, but the canons of the early ecumenical councils established that each regional church (what eventually coalesced into the Churches of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem) was responsible through its synod for the election of new bishops. There was no talk of forwarding nominations onto another synod, much less a single bishop. No offense intended! God knows the Local Orthodox Churches could stand to coordinate a little more closely than they tend to do at the present.

[elijahmaria]

No offense, but the canons of the early ecumenical councils established that each regional church (what eventually coalesced into the Churches of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem) was responsible through its synod for the election of new bishops. There was no talk of forwarding nominations onto another synod, much less a single bishop. No offense intended! God knows the Local Orthodox Churches could stand to coordinate a little more closely than they tend to do at the present.

No offense taken.

If all bishops are equal and local synodal election of bishops is canonical, why do we have this, for example:

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/7408.htm

[AMM]

Because that church is semi autonomous.  A truly self ruling church cannot have its primate confirmed by another.

[elijahmaria]

Because that church is semi autonomous.  A truly self ruling church cannot have its primate confirmed by another.

My question is more broad reaching than that.  Why does ANY local synod need to have that kind of primatial endorsement or blessing IF as all Orthodoxy seems to say "all bishops are equal"....Why does it not STOP with the local Synod. 

Where the bishop is; there is the Church...no?   

Well I am thinking with the evidence before me...perhaps not.

[podkarpatska]

Because that church is semi autonomous.  A truly self ruling church cannot have its primate confirmed by another.

My question is more broad reaching than that.  Why does ANY local synod need to have that kind of primatial endorsement or blessing IF as all Orthodoxy seems to say "all bishops are equal"....Why does it not STOP with the local Synod. 

Where the bishop is; there is the Church...no?   

Well I am thinking with the evidence before me...perhaps not.

I think because the term 'conciliarity'/sobornost  has different meanings to different national Orthodox churches. After all, some are somewhat modeled administratively upon the Roman model while others are, for lack of a better term, more 'free-form' and less structured.

[elijahmaria]

Because that church is semi autonomous.  A truly self ruling church cannot have its primate confirmed by another.

My question is more broad reaching than that.  Why does ANY local synod need to have that kind of primatial endorsement or blessing IF as all Orthodoxy seems to say "all bishops are equal"....Why does it not STOP with the local Synod. 

Where the bishop is; there is the Church...no?   

Well I am thinking with the evidence before me...perhaps not.

I think because the term 'conciliarity'/sobornost  has different meanings to different national Orthodox churches. After all, some are somewhat modeled administratively upon the Roman model while others are, for lack of a better term, more 'free-form' and less structured.

Understood and agreed!  Not troubled by it but grow weary of being singled out as being part of a Church that is sooooo very different administratively from Orthodoxy.  There are more than a few, generally ignored, similarities.  I am not saying that it is the same, but it is similar enough so that we should be able to dispense with this idea that the office of the Holy Father is one of brutal repression.

M.

[podkarpatska]

You all act as if eastern bishops are impotent pee-stained old men who can't do anything without aid and assistance.

Election of each and every UC Bishop has to be approved by Vatican.

http://www.ugcc.org.ua./news_single.0.html?&L=4&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=3462&cHash=aabd94cf21407d36e72fb4d21aca9134&type=98

Unless there is some circumstance that is compelling concerning any one of the men put forward for election, the "approval" is a blessing on the chosen candidate.

There is a list of three names listed in rank order approved by the synod and sent to Rome.  How many times have we seen it that the first name on the list has not become bishop.  Only in Churches who have had very venal and sinful leadership, and are about to clone another one,  has Rome intervened to help them find a candidate more morally, spiritually and ecclesiastically suited to lead a diocese or a particular Church.

It's not at all a high handed conspiracy against anyone or any Church.

Why then has the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh, Byzantine Rite, had its see vacant for over a year since Metropolitan Basil of blessed memory reposed?

[podkarpatska]

Because that church is semi autonomous.  A truly self ruling church cannot have its primate confirmed by another.

My question is more broad reaching than that.  Why does ANY local synod need to have that kind of primatial endorsement or blessing IF as all Orthodoxy seems to say "all bishops are equal"....Why does it not STOP with the local Synod. 

Where the bishop is; there is the Church...no?   

Well I am thinking with the evidence before me...perhaps not.

I think because the term 'conciliarity'/sobornost  has different meanings to different national Orthodox churches. After all, some are somewhat modeled administratively upon the Roman model while others are, for lack of a better term, more 'free-form' and less structured.

Understood and agreed!  Not troubled by it but grow weary of being singled out as being part of a Church that is sooooo very different administratively from Orthodoxy.  There are more than a few, generally ignored, similarities.  I am not saying that it is the same, but it is similar enough so that we should be able to dispense with this idea that the office of the Holy Father is one of brutal repression.

M.

It has been observed that the Roman Church has much to learn from the East's view of sobornost/conciliarity and the Orthodox have much to learn from the organizational skills of the Romans!  One doesn't need to agree on any dogmatic issues to understand that point! 

[elijahmaria]

Why then has the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh, Byzantine Rite, had its see vacant for over a year since Metropolitan Basil of blessed memory reposed?

I cannot tell you the answer to that.  Well...I could conjecture but I won't do it publicly.  It is a very unhealthy Metropolitan See.  That is all I can say.  And it is my home for the time being so to say the least the past decade has been deeply distressing to me and to others.  The fault does NOT lie in Rome however.  It begins right here at home.