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Author Topic: Why do Protestants convert to Orthodoxy rather than Roman Catholicism?  (Read 25279 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #225 on: May 28, 2011, 11:20:05 PM »

Its debatable whether Henry actually founded the Anglican church in the truest sense.

Interesting. I've encountered the Henry-VIII-founded-Anglicanism view on this forum before. I've pretty much dismissed it as the raving of some unecumenical Orthodox posters; but if even you (an Anglican) think it's "debatable", then perhaps I should consider it.

I don't think it's debatable that Henry VIII actions were the immediate cause for the creation of the Anglican church. At the same time the creation and subsequent theological defining of this church depended on the efforts of many reformers, some of whom were sincere and not necessarily sharing in Henry's base motivations.

Likewise, its unlikely that Ole Hank would have supported many of the reforms that came about as time passed. He was not supporter of Luther and his followers, or the reformation occurring on the continent as a whole. His motivations were well, for power and for women. If the Pope had granted his annulments, I don't think Hank would have moved to take control of the English church.
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« Reply #226 on: May 29, 2011, 12:50:30 PM »

Its debatable whether Henry actually founded the Anglican church in the truest sense.

Interesting. I've encountered the Henry-VIII-founded-Anglicanism view on this forum before. I've pretty much dismissed it as the raving of some unecumenical Orthodox posters; but if even you (an Anglican) think it's "debatable", then perhaps I should consider it.

I don't think it's debatable that Henry VIII actions were the immediate cause for the creation of the Anglican church. At the same time the creation and subsequent theological defining of this church depended on the efforts of many reformers, some of whom were sincere and not necessarily sharing in Henry's base motivations.

Likewise, its unlikely that Ole Hank would have supported many of the reforms that came about as time passed. He was not supporter of Luther and his followers, or the reformation occurring on the continent as a whole. His motivations were well, for power and for women. If the Pope had granted his annulments, I don't think Hank would have moved to take control of the English church.

As to Henry VIII's motives as being for "power", well he was the King, but only the second one of his house to rule, but it was not a simple case of "I want to run things".  The Wars of the Roses were still pretty recent history and they had caused convulsions, death and destruction in England for many, many years.  So this was a matter of a male heir to maintain the Tudor line.  How is that different from a host of other kings and nobles who, in the culture of their time, needed male descendants so that the family/house/etc would continue.  There is a thread here from a while back in which some of the complications of the time and place were covered. 

As to wanting "women" it's not like this was all a case being based on lust, either.  Henry had sired a son with another woman, but he died before he could be in someway made an acceptable heir, though he was acknowledged and was made the Duke of Richmond and Somerset.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_FitzRoy,_1st_Duke_of_Richmond_and_Somerset

Bishops of Rome had granted annulments many times in the centuries past.  It wasn't a new and startling request.  But who would rule in England?  An English King or the Emperor Charles V who controlled Clement VII?

Ebor
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« Reply #227 on: May 29, 2011, 01:01:09 PM »

yeah, as it was started by a guy who had his wife's head chopped off and wanted to divorce another wife coz she gave birth to a girl instead of a boy.
 Wink

Wrong order and there was more to it than that..  Wink

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13426.0.html

Ebor
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« Reply #228 on: May 29, 2011, 01:06:18 PM »

yeah, as it was started by a guy who had his wife's head chopped off and wanted to divorce another wife coz she gave birth to a girl instead of a boy.
 Wink

Wrong order and there was more to it than that..  Wink

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13426.0.html

Ebor

Where are we with respect to the original question?  Is there a way to tie up the flapping ends here?...just asking...not challenging.

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« Reply #229 on: May 29, 2011, 03:49:43 PM »

yeah, as it was started by a guy who had his wife's head chopped off and wanted to divorce another wife coz she gave birth to a girl instead of a boy.
 Wink

Wrong order

True.

And (for what it's worth) I personally think that the idea that the Anglican Church was "created" in the 16th century, as some on this thread have asserted, is just the raving of a few radical anti-ecumenists.
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« Reply #230 on: May 29, 2011, 04:35:28 PM »

The adoption of the Edwardine Ordinals and the putting down of the Prayer Book Rebellion during the reign of King Edward VI strike me as the two events after which you can understand the Church of England as a new body which is no longer part of the Catholic Church, so I would agree that Anglicanism was founded in the 16th century. But not by Henry VIII. Henry, and his Church, were just excommunicated Catholics.
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« Reply #231 on: May 29, 2011, 08:36:01 PM »

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "founded" as there has always been a Church in England since AD 37 according to tradition. That didn't stop simply because communion with Rome was severed. Something new wasn't born.
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« Reply #232 on: May 29, 2011, 09:01:42 PM »

 Smiley
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« Reply #233 on: May 29, 2011, 10:33:22 PM »

yeah, as it was started by a guy who had his wife's head chopped off and wanted to divorce another wife coz she gave birth to a girl instead of a boy.
 Wink

Wrong order

True.

And (for what it's worth) I personally think that the idea that the Anglican Church was "created" in the 16th century, as some on this thread have asserted, is just the raving of a few radical anti-ecumenists.

And when do you think it was created?
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« Reply #234 on: May 29, 2011, 10:54:46 PM »

The Anglican Church is of course from very early.  The Anglican Communion, however, is the invention of a murderous king and the 16th century reformation. 
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« Reply #235 on: May 29, 2011, 11:13:31 PM »

The Anglican Church is of course from very early.  The Anglican Communion, however, is the invention of a murderous king and the 16th century reformation. 

Well, the post-reformation Church of England might be the invention of a murderous king (though I don't know if he was any more murderous than many other of the English kings), but the Anglican Communion is an even later invention then that, not existing until the finalization of the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral in 1888.
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« Reply #236 on: May 30, 2011, 06:02:29 AM »

i understand my history is not so accurate, but as the church today has as it's head the wife of the most senior freemason in the country, we have a problem.

of course, there were many churches where the priests did their best to uphold the word of truth despite fierce persecution, at times they had to be anglican, then at times catholic, then back to anglican again. i believe that God does not withdraw his grace just because a church has the 'wrong' label; it is the theology that counts. but the theology in the large part of the anglican church in britain is moving steadily away from anything remotely orthodox.
also, it is true that there is continuity in the line of SOME of the priests, tracing their ordination to bishops who were ordained before any of the schisms, and some very good traditions have been handed down. also there are many anglicans trying to return to orthodox theology and practice.
but i am not sure for how long God will have patience with the current situation, where so many are liberal and reject even the basic beliefs of the virgin birth, resurrection etc. and reject the practices of chastity, Bible study and fasting.
thank God He is more merciful than i am! may He guide all those seeking the right path.
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« Reply #237 on: May 30, 2011, 07:55:18 PM »

This is simple. Protestants are anti-Papacy, Eastern Orthodoxy is anti-Papacy, ergo Protestants become Eastern Orthodox. It's really not that hard.
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« Reply #238 on: May 30, 2011, 08:45:14 PM »

This is simple. Protestants are anti-Papacy, Eastern Orthodoxy is anti-Papacy, ergo Protestants become Eastern Orthodox. It's really not that hard.
Let's just get all the stupid comments out, shall we? All Germans hate Jews, all white people hate blacks, all Yankees hate Southerners, blah, blah, blah. When will senseless stereotyping cease and will you perpetuate it by this silliness or seek to end it through prayer and love?

The reason I replied to your post was because I was a Protestant and became RC at 17 years of age. After a few years I became Orthodox. Not all Protestants have a bug up their bug for Catholicism, I hate to tell you.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #239 on: May 30, 2011, 08:57:11 PM »

This is simple. Protestants are anti-Papacy, Eastern Orthodoxy is anti-Papacy, ergo Protestants become Eastern Orthodox. It's really not that hard.

Most Protestants that I have known that have joined an ancient communion became Roman Catholic.
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« Reply #240 on: May 30, 2011, 09:33:22 PM »

This is simple. Protestants are anti-Papacy, Eastern Orthodoxy is anti-Papacy, ergo Protestants become Eastern Orthodox. It's really not that hard.
Let's just get all the stupid comments out, shall we? All Germans hate Jews, all white people hate blacks, all Yankees hate Southerners, blah, blah, blah. When will senseless stereotyping cease and will you perpetuate it by this silliness or seek to end it through prayer and love?

The reason I replied to your post was because I was a Protestant and became RC at 17 years of age. After a few years I became Orthodox. Not all Protestants have a bug up their bug for Catholicism, I hate to tell you.

In Christ,
Andrew
First, my comment was nowhere near on par with your over-the-top comparisons. Secondly, it was not stupid. If you were Protestant you must have been the exception rather than the rule (as I suppose I was). As a former Protestant myself, I can't imagine that the majority of Protestants would embrace Catholicism over Eastern Orthodoxy assuming that they know Eastern Orthodoxy exists. I remember being taught that the Pope is the antichrist and all kinds of other nonsense regarding the Papacy. I'm sure that some (like you and me) get past that, but I would imagine there are far more who do not. For many, the Papacy is a huge stumbling block, and one that they do not have to overcome if they choose Orthodoxy over Catholicism.

This is simple. Protestants are anti-Papacy, Eastern Orthodoxy is anti-Papacy, ergo Protestants become Eastern Orthodox. It's really not that hard.

Most Protestants that I have known that have joined an ancient communion became Roman Catholic.
What denominations(s) were they mainly from? I can't imagine the evangelical, Jack Chick types taking to Catholicism very easily.
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« Reply #241 on: May 30, 2011, 09:42:21 PM »

This is simple. Protestants are anti-Papacy, Eastern Orthodoxy is anti-Papacy, ergo Protestants become Eastern Orthodox. It's really not that hard.

From what I've personally witnessed, this does seem to be the case most of the time.  I'd also say that Orthodoxy offers a place of refuge for many evangelical Protestants who are burned out by the "culture wars".

While some EO's may participate in these "culture warrior" struggles, most are aloof and even indifferent from the ragging battles between religious and secular Americans.  This may also be the reason why I notice so many Protestant converts to the OC recoil in horror from any suggestion of politics and taking sides to affect some type of moral good for our society.  They'd rather just sit around and practice Theosis instead of protest in front of abortion clinics or petition to end Gay marriage.  I'm not saying that their approach to this issue is entirely wrong or without merit, but I do notice these tendencies.
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« Reply #242 on: May 30, 2011, 11:23:40 PM »

I was raised Baptist, became Charismatic non-denominational in Jr. High school, and then Roman Catholic upon graduating from a Protestant Bible college.

What won me to RCism was it's deep history and much closer connection to ancient Christianity both theologically and in worship than anything I had known as a Protestant. But it was the Catholicism you find in the catechism and history books I had fallen in love with. A few years of modern RCism became a big disappointment to me in both the Faith of the average Catholic and the changes of the Mass. It was almost as if RCism had decided to throw out much of their spiritual heritage in order to appear Protestant (only they weren't as good at it).

Then I discovered Orthodoxy and found an even deeper connection to the early Church both theologically and in worship and I knew right away I was home.

Curiously, one of the more difficult doctrines for this former Reformer to lay down were those concerning the Papacy. I had become convinced of the importance of both Scripture and Tradition and had never heard a clear patristic apologetic against the claims of Rome since I had so few Orthodox resources available to me at the time. However, Abbe Guettee's book on the Papacy helped me with that.

I do believe that Orthodoxy is right in the Great Schism between East and West but I have sometimes wondered: if Vatican 2 had never happened and the beauty of the Tridentine church had not been swept away or the liberal theologians allowed to run amok- would I have become discontented enough to search for the Orthodox Catholic Church?  
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« Reply #243 on: May 31, 2011, 12:05:03 PM »

I was raised Baptist, became Charismatic non-denominational in Jr. High school, and then Roman Catholic upon graduating from a Protestant Bible college.

What won me to RCism was it's deep history and much closer connection to ancient Christianity both theologically and in worship than anything I had known as a Protestant. But it was the Catholicism you find in the catechism and history books I had fallen in love with. A few years of modern RCism became a big disappointment to me in both the Faith of the average Catholic and the changes of the Mass. It was almost as if RCism had decided to throw out much of their spiritual heritage in order to appear Protestant (only they weren't as good at it).

Then I discovered Orthodoxy and found an even deeper connection to the early Church both theologically and in worship and I knew right away I was home.

Curiously, one of the more difficult doctrines for this former Reformer to lay down were those concerning the Papacy. I had become convinced of the importance of both Scripture and Tradition and had never heard a clear patristic apologetic against the claims of Rome since I had so few Orthodox resources available to me at the time. However, Abbe Guettee's book on the Papacy helped me with that.

I do believe that Orthodoxy is right in the Great Schism between East and West but I have sometimes wondered: if Vatican 2 had never happened and the beauty of the Tridentine church had not been swept away or the liberal theologians allowed to run amok- would I have become discontented enough to search for the Orthodox Catholic Church?  
Interesting post. I think this largely explains why I remain RC. One, I really do believe it is the Church, but two, I've had nothing but good experiences since I have joined the Catholic Church. I am fortunate enough to have a very solid, orthodox (small 'o') parish with a reverent liturgy and none of the abuses that popped up after Vatican II that people gripe about. That's not to say that I don't think Orthodoxy is very good in many ways as well, but it seems that those things which I love about Orthodoxy are the things that are present in my Church as well. It is those areas which we differ that would keep me from becoming Orthodox.
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« Reply #244 on: June 02, 2011, 10:08:38 AM »

The Anglican Church is of course from very early.  The Anglican Communion, however, is the invention of a murderous king and the 16th century reformation.  

Well, the post-reformation Church of England might be the invention of a murderous king (though I don't know if he was any more murderous than many other of the English kings), but the Anglican Communion is an even later invention then that, not existing until the finalization of the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral in 1888.

Erm, "murderous" is a label that could be applied to many more kings and nobles and people with power than just one or a few English ones. Plenty of examples can be found across Europe (both "west" and "east") and around the world.  Henry VIII was in fact an educated man and much more complex than some would represent.

Thank you for the data point on the C-L Q correcting FrHLL, FormerReformer.  Smiley

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« Reply #245 on: June 03, 2011, 09:33:52 PM »

This is simple. Protestants are anti-Papacy, Eastern Orthodoxy is anti-Papacy, ergo Protestants become Eastern Orthodox. It's really not that hard.

From what I've personally witnessed, this does seem to be the case most of the time.  I'd also say that Orthodoxy offers a place of refuge for many evangelical Protestants who are burned out by the "culture wars".

While some EO's may participate in these "culture warrior" struggles, most are aloof and even indifferent from the ragging battles between religious and secular Americans.  This may also be the reason why I notice so many Protestant converts to the OC recoil in horror from any suggestion of politics and taking sides to affect some type of moral good for our society.  They'd rather just sit around and practice Theosis instead of protest in front of abortion clinics or petition to end Gay marriage.  I'm not saying that their approach to this issue is entirely wrong or without merit, but I do notice these tendencies.

I think what we mostly get upset about is the tendency to protest and become politically active when it comes to the politics of a different country, but it's looked down upon when we protest and become politically active for America. This is my country. This is my home! This is where I live! And this is the place where my family is from. And so I care about America.

We also get upset when it's ok to protest for Earth Day, but not ok in regards to other issues like Abortion....etc. And so I learned to simply ignore what other Orthodox have to say when it comes to the issue of what I should or shouldn't do/believe in the area of American Politics.

If an Orthodox Christian agrees with my political views then we will naturally group together, if an Orthodox Christian disagrees with my political views then we will naturally bump heads. And I'm content with living with that as a reality.

I am also content with hanging with Roman Catholics who are like minded politically. I really don't have a problem with it.
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« Reply #246 on: June 07, 2011, 11:09:16 PM »

I hope that I'm not re-stating what someone else already said, but here's my take on the matter.

Most protestants who want to leave the vast sea of denominations look for a church that has absolutely no resemblance to the Protestant houses of worship. They want a system that is so drastically different from the man-made setups which they have grown to dislike. From here, it probably depends on which Churches they visit. If they go to a more traditionalist Catholic Church (which was my introduction to the faith), they may convert to Catholicism. If they find a "modernist" Church where the priest looks like a pastor and the setup looks just like the Methodist / Anglican / Presbyterian church, then they may keep trying the waters until they find an Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #247 on: June 14, 2011, 03:49:56 PM »

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "founded" as there has always been a Church in England since AD 37 according to tradition. That didn't stop simply because communion with Rome was severed. Something new wasn't born.
Yep.  Cool
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« Reply #248 on: June 14, 2011, 04:41:02 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
This is simple. Protestants are anti-Papacy, Eastern Orthodoxy is anti-Papacy, ergo Protestants become Eastern Orthodox. It's really not that hard.
Let's just get all the stupid comments out, shall we? All Germans hate Jews, all white people hate blacks, all Yankees hate Southerners, blah, blah, blah. When will senseless stereotyping cease and will you perpetuate it by this silliness or seek to end it through prayer and love?

The reason I replied to your post was because I was a Protestant and became RC at 17 years of age. After a few years I became Orthodox. Not all Protestants have a bug up their bug for Catholicism, I hate to tell you.

In Christ,
Andrew
First, my comment was nowhere near on par with your over-the-top comparisons. Secondly, it was not stupid. If you were Protestant you must have been the exception rather than the rule (as I suppose I was). As a former Protestant myself, I can't imagine that the majority of Protestants would embrace Catholicism over Eastern Orthodoxy assuming that they know Eastern Orthodoxy exists. I remember being taught that the Pope is the antichrist and all kinds of other nonsense regarding the Papacy. I'm sure that some (like you and me) get past that, but I would imagine there are far more who do not. For many, the Papacy is a huge stumbling block, and one that they do not have to overcome if they choose Orthodoxy over Catholicism.

This is simple. Protestants are anti-Papacy, Eastern Orthodoxy is anti-Papacy, ergo Protestants become Eastern Orthodox. It's really not that hard.

Most Protestants that I have known that have joined an ancient communion became Roman Catholic.
What denominations(s) were they mainly from? I can't imagine the evangelical, Jack Chick types taking to Catholicism very easily.
What makes you think that they would take to Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #249 on: June 14, 2011, 04:46:32 PM »

This is simple. Protestants are anti-Papacy, Eastern Orthodoxy is anti-Papacy, ergo Protestants become Eastern Orthodox. It's really not that hard.
So are Muslims.  Why not embrace Islam?

And if anti-Papacy was the defining content of Eastern Orthodoxy, why didn't the Protestants embrace it during your Reformation, given that there was plenty of contact with the Lutherans, Hussites, Calvinists and Anglicans?

You all fail to explain how the Orthodox, faced with the choice between the Protestants and the Vatican (e.g. the Tubingen correspondence, the Synod of Jerusalem, the Orthodox Confession [i.e. Catechism] of the Catholic Church approved at Iasi, etc.), the Orthodox firmly came down on the same side as the Vatican.
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« Reply #250 on: June 14, 2011, 07:19:41 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
This is simple. Protestants are anti-Papacy, Eastern Orthodoxy is anti-Papacy, ergo Protestants become Eastern Orthodox. It's really not that hard.
Let's just get all the stupid comments out, shall we? All Germans hate Jews, all white people hate blacks, all Yankees hate Southerners, blah, blah, blah. When will senseless stereotyping cease and will you perpetuate it by this silliness or seek to end it through prayer and love?

The reason I replied to your post was because I was a Protestant and became RC at 17 years of age. After a few years I became Orthodox. Not all Protestants have a bug up their bug for Catholicism, I hate to tell you.

In Christ,
Andrew
First, my comment was nowhere near on par with your over-the-top comparisons. Secondly, it was not stupid. If you were Protestant you must have been the exception rather than the rule (as I suppose I was). As a former Protestant myself, I can't imagine that the majority of Protestants would embrace Catholicism over Eastern Orthodoxy assuming that they know Eastern Orthodoxy exists. I remember being taught that the Pope is the antichrist and all kinds of other nonsense regarding the Papacy. I'm sure that some (like you and me) get past that, but I would imagine there are far more who do not. For many, the Papacy is a huge stumbling block, and one that they do not have to overcome if they choose Orthodoxy over Catholicism.

This is simple. Protestants are anti-Papacy, Eastern Orthodoxy is anti-Papacy, ergo Protestants become Eastern Orthodox. It's really not that hard.

Most Protestants that I have known that have joined an ancient communion became Roman Catholic.
What denominations(s) were they mainly from? I can't imagine the evangelical, Jack Chick types taking to Catholicism very easily.
What makes you think that they would take to Orthodoxy?

Shared distaste/hatred for Rome of course.  Happens all the time.
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« Reply #251 on: June 14, 2011, 07:31:55 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
This is simple. Protestants are anti-Papacy, Eastern Orthodoxy is anti-Papacy, ergo Protestants become Eastern Orthodox. It's really not that hard.
Let's just get all the stupid comments out, shall we? All Germans hate Jews, all white people hate blacks, all Yankees hate Southerners, blah, blah, blah. When will senseless stereotyping cease and will you perpetuate it by this silliness or seek to end it through prayer and love?

The reason I replied to your post was because I was a Protestant and became RC at 17 years of age. After a few years I became Orthodox. Not all Protestants have a bug up their bug for Catholicism, I hate to tell you.

In Christ,
Andrew
First, my comment was nowhere near on par with your over-the-top comparisons. Secondly, it was not stupid. If you were Protestant you must have been the exception rather than the rule (as I suppose I was). As a former Protestant myself, I can't imagine that the majority of Protestants would embrace Catholicism over Eastern Orthodoxy assuming that they know Eastern Orthodoxy exists. I remember being taught that the Pope is the antichrist and all kinds of other nonsense regarding the Papacy. I'm sure that some (like you and me) get past that, but I would imagine there are far more who do not. For many, the Papacy is a huge stumbling block, and one that they do not have to overcome if they choose Orthodoxy over Catholicism.

This is simple. Protestants are anti-Papacy, Eastern Orthodoxy is anti-Papacy, ergo Protestants become Eastern Orthodox. It's really not that hard.

Most Protestants that I have known that have joined an ancient communion became Roman Catholic.
What denominations(s) were they mainly from? I can't imagine the evangelical, Jack Chick types taking to Catholicism very easily.
What makes you think that they would take to Orthodoxy?

Shared distaste/hatred for Rome of course.  Happens all the time.
Only in the stupor of Ultramontanists drunk off of bitter wine tread from sour grapes.  If hatred of the Vatican was enough of a theology, the Protestants would have joined us during your Reformation.  Instead, being birds of your feather, they prefered to stay on the other side of your coin.
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« Reply #252 on: June 15, 2011, 12:14:49 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
This is simple. Protestants are anti-Papacy, Eastern Orthodoxy is anti-Papacy, ergo Protestants become Eastern Orthodox. It's really not that hard.
Let's just get all the stupid comments out, shall we? All Germans hate Jews, all white people hate blacks, all Yankees hate Southerners, blah, blah, blah. When will senseless stereotyping cease and will you perpetuate it by this silliness or seek to end it through prayer and love?

The reason I replied to your post was because I was a Protestant and became RC at 17 years of age. After a few years I became Orthodox. Not all Protestants have a bug up their bug for Catholicism, I hate to tell you.

In Christ,
Andrew
First, my comment was nowhere near on par with your over-the-top comparisons. Secondly, it was not stupid. If you were Protestant you must have been the exception rather than the rule (as I suppose I was). As a former Protestant myself, I can't imagine that the majority of Protestants would embrace Catholicism over Eastern Orthodoxy assuming that they know Eastern Orthodoxy exists. I remember being taught that the Pope is the antichrist and all kinds of other nonsense regarding the Papacy. I'm sure that some (like you and me) get past that, but I would imagine there are far more who do not. For many, the Papacy is a huge stumbling block, and one that they do not have to overcome if they choose Orthodoxy over Catholicism.

This is simple. Protestants are anti-Papacy, Eastern Orthodoxy is anti-Papacy, ergo Protestants become Eastern Orthodox. It's really not that hard.

Most Protestants that I have known that have joined an ancient communion became Roman Catholic.
What denominations(s) were they mainly from? I can't imagine the evangelical, Jack Chick types taking to Catholicism very easily.
What makes you think that they would take to Orthodoxy?

Shared distaste/hatred for Rome of course.  Happens all the time.
Only in the stupor of Ultramontanists drunk off of bitter wine tread from sour grapes.  If hatred of the Vatican was enough of a theology, the Protestants would have joined us during your Reformation.  Instead, being birds of your feather, they prefered to stay on the other side of your coin.

They wanted you to come with them at that point.  Once the bloom was off the rose then they were happy to return to a Church that looked more like their own.
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« Reply #253 on: September 17, 2011, 08:48:16 PM »

Okay, sticking my hand into the piranha tank on this one.

While I sincerely believe that most Protestants convert to Orthodoxy out of personal conviction, I am convinced that a small number of Protestants (especially those from non-mainline, evangelical Protestantism) convert to Orthodoxy mainly because they wish to belong to an apostolic church that's simply "not Rome".   

There have been many evangelical Protestants that have happily converted to Roman Catholicism.  Also, there is now an ordinariate for Anglican converts.  There are not a few ex-Anglican priests and ex-Lutheran pastors now serving as Roman priests under dispensation. 

Nevertheless, I cannot shake the suspicion that some evangelicals will not even consider Rome when considering a move to apostolic Christianity.  What particularly galls me are the Protestants who convert to "Western Orthodoxy" and hear the Tridentine Mass in English.  Why not become Roman Catholic and hear Mass within the Church that is built around this liturgy?  It's all rather insulting.  I also think it's rather petty that someone would become Orthodox simply because they do not want to be perceived as Roman Catholic.

Yes, this post is inflammatory.  Nevertheless, I do have some strong biases about this issue.  I suspect that a number of evangelical converts to Orthodoxy often take a hard apologetic tack against Roman Catholicism out of historical prejudices and not a reasoned stance against Rome.


Because it isn't about a shallow preference in worship style and it isn't necessarily an anti-Rome thing.

Speaking for myself, my journey to Orthodoxy has been a studied one. Though I had been leaning towards and studying Orthodoxy for years, I did not want to dismiss Rome. My wife also wanted to look at Rome so we left our Protestant church and for a time attended a Roman church and had even began RCIA classes. In the end, we ended up leaving there because history, tradition, Scripture, and overall witness favored Orthodoxy. Coming from an Anglican background, Western liturgy was certainly more familiar but our hearts and minds were drawn to Orthodoxy. We are on track for chrismation this year.
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« Reply #254 on: November 16, 2011, 06:36:23 AM »

I am converting to Orthodoxy because I believe, personally, that it is God's true church. I have looked into Catholicism, and it screams false to me. The infallibility of the Pope, the pervertedness of the priests, everything. I just can't come to agree with it. Yes, their practices are somewhat like Orthodoxy, but there are others that are not. I don't dislike the people, I just dislike some things of the beliefs.
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« Reply #255 on: November 16, 2011, 09:06:17 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
This is simple. Protestants are anti-Papacy, Eastern Orthodoxy is anti-Papacy, ergo Protestants become Eastern Orthodox. It's really not that hard.
Let's just get all the stupid comments out, shall we? All Germans hate Jews, all white people hate blacks, all Yankees hate Southerners, blah, blah, blah. When will senseless stereotyping cease and will you perpetuate it by this silliness or seek to end it through prayer and love?

The reason I replied to your post was because I was a Protestant and became RC at 17 years of age. After a few years I became Orthodox. Not all Protestants have a bug up their bug for Catholicism, I hate to tell you.

In Christ,
Andrew
First, my comment was nowhere near on par with your over-the-top comparisons. Secondly, it was not stupid. If you were Protestant you must have been the exception rather than the rule (as I suppose I was). As a former Protestant myself, I can't imagine that the majority of Protestants would embrace Catholicism over Eastern Orthodoxy assuming that they know Eastern Orthodoxy exists. I remember being taught that the Pope is the antichrist and all kinds of other nonsense regarding the Papacy. I'm sure that some (like you and me) get past that, but I would imagine there are far more who do not. For many, the Papacy is a huge stumbling block, and one that they do not have to overcome if they choose Orthodoxy over Catholicism.

This is simple. Protestants are anti-Papacy, Eastern Orthodoxy is anti-Papacy, ergo Protestants become Eastern Orthodox. It's really not that hard.

Most Protestants that I have known that have joined an ancient communion became Roman Catholic.
What denominations(s) were they mainly from? I can't imagine the evangelical, Jack Chick types taking to Catholicism very easily.
What makes you think that they would take to Orthodoxy?

Shared distaste/hatred for Rome of course.  Happens all the time.
Only in the stupor of Ultramontanists drunk off of bitter wine tread from sour grapes.  If hatred of the Vatican was enough of a theology, the Protestants would have joined us during your Reformation.  Instead, being birds of your feather, they prefered to stay on the other side of your coin.

They wanted you to come with them at that point.  Once the bloom was off the rose then they were happy to return to a Church that looked more like their own.
You mean, after EP Jeremias II rejected them?
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #256 on: November 16, 2011, 09:39:36 AM »

I am converting to Orthodoxy because I believe, personally, that it is God's true church. I have looked into Catholicism, and it screams false to me. The infallibility of the Pope, the pervertedness of the priests, everything. I just can't come to agree with it. Yes, their practices are somewhat like Orthodoxy, but there are others that are not. I don't dislike the people, I just dislike some things of the beliefs.
Does Catholicism actually teach as doctrine that their priests are to fondle little boys?
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« Reply #257 on: November 17, 2011, 03:32:52 PM »

no. at this point, i want to defend the catholics and say that anyone can sin, and any church (catholic, protestant or orthodox) which aligns itself too closely with the state and becomes too comfortable can be tempted to uphold the status quo (leave things alone) instead of fighting for truth and justice.

most catholics are devastated by the actions of a few crazy priests (and the ignorant higher clergy who did not investigate) so we should not speak or act like most catholics are dodgy.
may God give them peace and courage in their spiritual life.

i also wish stepan and imperfectrose peace and grace from God in their spiritual life as they seek the depth and beauty of orthodoxy.
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« Reply #258 on: November 17, 2011, 03:49:25 PM »

no. at this point, i want to defend the catholics and say that anyone can sin, and any church (catholic, protestant or orthodox) which aligns itself too closely with the state and becomes too comfortable can be tempted to uphold the status quo (leave things alone) instead of fighting for truth and justice.
That can happen with no connection to the state.  Indeed, it can even happen if the state is actively hostile to the church.

Case in point on the mentioned issue: The Vatican hierarchy is not even recognized as an institution in Ireland.  It didn't prevent the scandal there.  Ditto Mexico, where up until recently priests could not wear clerical garb in public.
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« Reply #259 on: November 17, 2011, 05:19:01 PM »

i have been to ireland twice.
the church and state are still pretty close. most average irish people still wouldn't dare to criticise the church publicly. the good side to this is that u can cross yourself as much as you like in public, and no-one minds or finds it unusual.  Smiley
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« Reply #260 on: November 17, 2011, 05:37:07 PM »

i have been to ireland twice.
the church and state are still pretty close.
No, not officially. They disestablished the Vatican in Ireland decades ago.  The culture remains (or remained close), with the effects of that in a democratically elected government, e.g. the referendum on abortion.
most average irish people still wouldn't dare to criticise the church publicly. the good side to this is that u can cross yourself as much as you like in public, and no-one minds or finds it unusual.  Smiley
Would that it would remain so!
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« Reply #261 on: November 17, 2011, 08:35:46 PM »

i have been to ireland twice.
the church and state are still pretty close.
No, not officially. They disestablished the Vatican in Ireland decades ago.  The culture remains (or remained close), with the effects of that in a democratically elected government, e.g. the referendum on abortion.

And even beyond that, Ireland has closed its embassy to the Vatican. That doesn't mean a severance of diplomatic ties, of course, but there is symbolic value in the event.
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« Reply #262 on: November 25, 2011, 02:44:18 AM »

As an ex-Protestant convert I am a bit offended by this. I am 15 years old and I grew up in an extremely Protestant household and I later ended up leaving it and adoptiong Theravada Buddhism and sort of an atheistic, hostile view towards Christianity. Later on though, I converted back to Christianity after reading some of the greatest books of my life, and I realized that Protestantism seemed insubstantial and when I realized that most of my favorite authors were either Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. So, I decided that I would become one of the two. My parents were not too happy, but, they did not stop me. I chose the Eastern Orthodox Church because of the history, I became convinced that we held onto the faith of the Apostles and that Rome was in schism and that the Roman Catholic Church did not exist until 1054 and right now I am currently an Eastern Orthodox catechumen.
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« Reply #263 on: November 25, 2011, 03:49:22 AM »

Offended by what, James?
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« Reply #264 on: November 27, 2011, 12:21:54 AM »

I find it amusing that there's so much "because they both hate Rome..." attitude. Believe it or not, on the campus of the Evangelical school I go to it works the other way around occasionally. Catholics and Orthodoxy respect each other a bit in a different way then they do the 90% of the rest of the school that's evangelical protestant.

A perfect example, is that I doubt anyone in the college age group at my OCA parish would consider dating a protestant. (Keep in mind, of the 8 or 10 or so of us only 2 didn't convert/aren't converting during/immediately following college) However, someone there dating a Catholic doesn't seem totally outlandish.
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« Reply #265 on: November 27, 2011, 02:53:28 PM »

That's not what I saw when I was in school.
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« Reply #266 on: November 27, 2011, 05:12:40 PM »

there was NO orthodox group in my university!
 Sad
so i hung out with both protestants and catholics
 Wink
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« Reply #267 on: November 29, 2011, 03:48:43 AM »

I converted from Protestantism, The Lutheran Church, and very well knew the options before me .I knowingly choose to not convert to Roman Catholicism for so many reasons .

As a Lutheran, an "orthodox" Lutheran, I also had a strong aversion to Evangelicalism. I found them to be snotty to anyone who disagreed with their anti- sacramentalism. On the other hand, I think what really closed the door to the American Roman Catholic Church is just that , in the name.

It is nothing that resembles the Church that Luther was apart of, or even the one St Paul spoke of in his Epistles. On the contrary, it is a reflection of the decadence and dereliction of a society that is post Christian. In leaving Lutheranism, I  really saw the American Roman Catholic Church like any other denomination.
 
Perhaps even a mediocre version of the EC-USA. Always reinventing itself to become more relevant to the society around it .

This Isn't a put down , but the Crisis of Faith in Roman Catholicism in America , the fact that a Church that claims to have Christ but yet whos layfaithful and priests treat this fact nonchalantly in their Mass, makes me doubt the authenticity of their claims.

Of course there is the fact that reading Jarslo Pelikan's writings on the history of the Church , a scholarly, non biased, account of Church History drew me closer to the Eastern Church. I have to thank my Catholic friends  at the time who recommended it for those reasons :-)
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« Reply #268 on: November 29, 2011, 03:00:06 PM »

hi and welcome seraphimmark!
how long have u been orthodox?
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« Reply #269 on: December 02, 2011, 03:07:18 AM »

Mabsoota, Hi ,Thank you , yes Iv'e been Orthodox for nine years now. I was Lutheran five years before that .
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