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Author Topic: Why do Protestants convert to Orthodoxy rather than Roman Catholicism?  (Read 24960 times) Average Rating: 0
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jordanz
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« on: March 27, 2011, 12:13:12 PM »

Okay, sticking my hand into the piranha tank on this one.

While I sincerely believe that most Protestants convert to Orthodoxy out of personal conviction, I am convinced that a small number of Protestants (especially those from non-mainline, evangelical Protestantism) convert to Orthodoxy mainly because they wish to belong to an apostolic church that's simply "not Rome".   

There have been many evangelical Protestants that have happily converted to Roman Catholicism.  Also, there is now an ordinariate for Anglican converts.  There are not a few ex-Anglican priests and ex-Lutheran pastors now serving as Roman priests under dispensation. 

Nevertheless, I cannot shake the suspicion that some evangelicals will not even consider Rome when considering a move to apostolic Christianity.  What particularly galls me are the Protestants who convert to "Western Orthodoxy" and hear the Tridentine Mass in English.  Why not become Roman Catholic and hear Mass within the Church that is built around this liturgy?  It's all rather insulting.  I also think it's rather petty that someone would become Orthodox simply because they do not want to be perceived as Roman Catholic.

Yes, this post is inflammatory.  Nevertheless, I do have some strong biases about this issue.  I suspect that a number of evangelical converts to Orthodoxy often take a hard apologetic tack against Roman Catholicism out of historical prejudices and not a reasoned stance against Rome.
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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2011, 12:28:23 PM »

Okay, sticking my hand into the piranha tank on this one.

While I sincerely believe that most Protestants convert to Orthodoxy out of personal conviction, I am convinced that a small number of Protestants (especially those from non-mainline, evangelical Protestantism) convert to Orthodoxy mainly because they wish to belong to an apostolic church that's simply "not Rome". 

It's amazing that you are able to read the hearts and minds of so many converts. Are you clairvoyant? 

There have been many evangelical Protestants that have happily converted to Roman Catholicism.  Also, there is now an ordinariate for Anglican converts.  There are not a few ex-Anglican priests and ex-Lutheran pastors now serving as Roman priests under dispensation. 

Nevertheless, I cannot shake the suspicion that some evangelicals will not even consider Rome when considering a move to apostolic Christianity.  What particularly galls me are the Protestants who convert to "Western Orthodoxy" and hear the Tridentine Mass in English.  Why not become Roman Catholic and hear Mass within the Church that is built around this liturgy? 

Because they don't agree with Roman Doctrine. It's not just about a Latin-Rite mass, it's about doctrine. Protestants who convert to Orthodoxy don't agree with Catholic doctrine.

It's all rather insulting.  I also think it's rather petty that someone would become Orthodox simply because they do not want to be perceived as Roman Catholic.

Wow, than you obviously think those who convert to Orthodoxy are a lot more shallow than they really are. Ever think that it has nothing to do with not wanting to be Catholic and everything to do with not wanting to join a group whose doctrine you don't agree with?

Yes, this post is inflammatory.  Nevertheless, I do have some strong biases about this issue.  I suspect that a number of evangelical converts to Orthodoxy often take a hard apologetic tack against Roman Catholicism out of historical prejudices and not a reasoned stance against Rome.

If that's what you have to tell yourself at night to help you sleep better, then God bless you.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with the Orthodox Church, but there are many differences between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches beyond just the issue of the Papacy. Perhaps if you actually took the time to study the differences, speak with converts (and "cradle") alike, you would have a greater understanding as to why people believe what they believe.

On a whole, your post comes off as ignorant and obtrusive.

Many Protestant converts to Orthodoxy do explore the Roman Catholic Church before being chrismated; but once they read up on the history and beliefs of the Orthodox Church, and realize that we have remained unchanged in belief and doctrine since Pentecost (something Rome can't claim), they usually are happy to become Orthodox.
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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2011, 01:04:31 PM »

Okay, sticking my hand into the piranha tank on this one.

While I sincerely believe that most Protestants convert to Orthodoxy out of personal conviction, I am convinced that a small number of Protestants (especially those from non-mainline, evangelical Protestantism) convert to Orthodoxy mainly because they wish to belong to an apostolic church that's simply "not Rome".  

It's amazing that you are able to read the hearts and minds of so many converts. Are you clairvoyant?

Now hold on here.  I said "a small number".  I did not mean "many" or "most".  Just a small number.  All I want to know is if my hypothesis/prejudice is true for some Protestants that have converted to Orthodoxy.  Undoubtedly, most Protestant converts to Orthodoxy convert out of personal conviction.    

Because they don't agree with Roman Doctrine. It's not just about a Latin-Rite mass, it's about doctrine. Protestants who convert to Orthodoxy don't agree with Catholic doctrine.

Still, the Tridentine Mass, and especially the Roman Canon, _is_ the summation of Roman doctrine on the Eucharist.  If a Protestant person is drawn to the Tridentine Mass, he or she should consider joining the Roman Church.  While the Orthodox affirm the same fundamental meaning of the Eucharist (but in different words), the Roman Canon is the Catholic confession of the Eucharist.  It is strange to say "I'm Orthodox" and then worship at a liturgy that screams "Roman!".

It's all rather insulting.  I also think it's rather petty that someone would become Orthodox simply because they do not want to be perceived as Roman Catholic.

Wow, than you obviously think those who convert to Orthodoxy are a lot more shallow than they really are. Ever think that it has nothing to do with not wanting to be Catholic and everything to do with not wanting to join a group whose doctrine you don't agree with?

It's not necessarily a matter of being shallow.  Sociocultural currents run deep.  I could see a person whose family or even spouse has a deep prejudice against Roman Catholicism joining an Orthodox church instead.  Sometimes it is better to maintain family allegiance rather than risk ostracization.  I wish that people would not be so prejudiced, but unfortunately that is the case at times.  

« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 01:12:19 PM by jordanz » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2011, 01:13:09 PM »

If you're mainly asking about Evangelical non-mainline Protestants than I think that Western Rite is a bit of a red-herring in the discussion.  Yes, Western Rite serves a Tridentine Mass (as well as the Rite of St Tikhon, based off the Anglican Book of Common Prayer) but the main draw is less that of the Evangelicals and more that of the mainline Protestants.  Most Western Rite parishes are parishes that convert en masse from groups such as the Lutherans and Anglicans and even the occasional Roman Catholic who already have historical connections to the Rites practiced.  

For an Evangelical any Rite is going to be bizarre and alien new territory, and they are far more likely to convert in a Byzantine parish, if only due to the fact that Eastern Rite parishes FAR outnumber the Western Rite.

As to Evangelicals who convert to Orthodoxy out of a desire not to be perceived as "Roman" and yet become "apostolic", while it is possible these converts exist, their numbers are far fewer than those who convert to the Roman Catholic Church out of ignorance that any other option exists or a belief that Orthodoxy is the same thing with a different Pope (Constantinople).  

Those you perceive as taking a "hard apologetic tack against Roman Catholicism" are usually those Protestants who did do the research.  A Protestant who avoids Rome due to Mariology, the Saints, and Icons is naturally going to be softened toward Roman Catholics once they settle into Orthodoxy.  A Protestant who converts to Orthodoxy after researching the history of the papacy, the filioque, and the doctrinal innovations since the schism isn't about to give the Roman Catholic Church a break on these issues, as they are still ongoing.
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2011, 01:16:05 PM »

Because Roman Catholicism is false.
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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2011, 01:17:02 PM »

I think your opening post certainly makes a lot of sense, and I have thought for a long time that this is probably true in a lot of cases. I mean, we were always taught (I am an ex-Protestant) the evils of the Roman Catholic Church and how false it is, so I think logically any Protestant who wants to investigate Apostolic Christianity is going to be drawn (at least initially) towards Eastern or Oriental Orthodoxy and absolutely avoid Rome. This was the case with my dad at first (he and I entered the Catholic Church Easter Vigil 2007). Initially when he was searching for the Church of the Apostles he was drawn to and fascinated by Eastern Orthodoxy. It was only later that he started to wonder if what he had been taught all our life about Rome was actually true (of course, it was not).

For me, a huge inspiration was watching the Journey Home on EWTN. It was especially a blessing to hear ex-Methodists and ex-Wesleyans (I grew up being both United Methodist and later Wesleyan) talk about their journey into the Catholic Church and mentioning stuff that they may have believed when they were still Protestant or things which they were told about the Church when they were Protestant which were absolutely not true. For instance, adoration of the Blessed Sacrament is not idolatry when one understands our belief about the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, yet as a Protestant I did not understand it and initially thought it looked idolatrous when watching EWTN.
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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2011, 02:05:35 PM »

Thank you, FormerReformer, for proving my prejudices wrong.

A Protestant who converts to Orthodoxy after researching the history of the papacy, the filioque, and the doctrinal innovations since the schism isn't about to give the Roman Catholic Church a break on these issues, as they are still ongoing.

Fair enough.  I respect anyone who makes an informed decision to convert to any religion.  My prejudice that evangelicals would convert to Orthodoxy because it's the apostolic Christianity that's "not the Rome" is abrasive, and I apologise for that.

Still, if a Protestant is primarily interested in joining the Western Rite Orthodox, he or she should seriously consider becoming a traditional Catholic.  I would respect their decision to become WRO if it's a distinction made after thorough investigation.  Still, there is a cognitive disjunct, I think, to worship at the Tridentine Mass under the auspices of a canonical Orthodox patriarchy or autocephalous synod.  Yes, as of now Rome does not permit traditional Catholic priests to celebrate the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular (vernacular readings during the Mass are allowed, but the rest of the Mass must be in Latin).  I would not become Orthodox just to hear the ancient Mass in English.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 02:06:02 PM by jordanz » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2011, 02:05:45 PM »

To be frank, this post is more than inflammatory, it is rather offensive to me. I will concede that there may be some Protestants that choose Orthodoxy over Rome simply on the basis that it is not Rome. However, this is a very wrong reason for joining any church, and these few people should be prayed for. As for me, I chose Orthodoxy after much prayer, study, conviction, and some heartache. My wife and I were very active in our protestant church, being a lay evangelist and teacher...the decision to walk away from that community of faith was not a flip of the coin. We, at first, began RCIA with the full intention of joining the Catholic Church....even with the multiple hangups I had with it. Not being one to leave well enough alone, I pressed into the study of ancient Christianity and found Orthodoxy...and my home. To say that I went there to avoid Rome is gravely wrong, or that I sought out a Western Rite is laughable. I travel 3 hours just to get to an Eastern Rite parish...and I wouldn't have it any other way.  I chose Orthodoxy over Catholicism because I was led by God to find His Church, and the UNCHANGING Truth, Doctrine, and Tradition that has only been preserved within the Most Holy Orthodox Church. I am now beginning catechism, along with my family, and there is no doubt that I am where I should be. Not being part of Rome had little to nothing to do with my decision...
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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2011, 02:35:04 PM »

Thank you, FormerReformer, for proving my prejudices wrong.

A Protestant who converts to Orthodoxy after researching the history of the papacy, the filioque, and the doctrinal innovations since the schism isn't about to give the Roman Catholic Church a break on these issues, as they are still ongoing.

Fair enough.  I respect anyone who makes an informed decision to convert to any religion.  My prejudice that evangelicals would convert to Orthodoxy because it's the apostolic Christianity that's "not the Rome" is abrasive, and I apologise for that.

Still, if a Protestant is primarily interested in joining the Western Rite Orthodox, he or she should seriously consider becoming a traditional Catholic.  I would respect their decision to become WRO if it's a distinction made after thorough investigation.  Still, there is a cognitive disjunct, I think, to worship at the Tridentine Mass under the auspices of a canonical Orthodox patriarchy or autocephalous synod.  Yes, as of now Rome does not permit traditional Catholic priests to celebrate the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular (vernacular readings during the Mass are allowed, but the rest of the Mass must be in Latin).  I would not become Orthodox just to hear the ancient Mass in English.


What you still keep missing is that the reason they become Orthodox is because they don't agree with the doctrine of the Catholic Church. The Western Rite Orthodox Church allows them to worship in an ancient Western Mass, but does not compromise on doctrine.

Why would someone who seeks the truth about the filioque, the Papacy, Original Sin, Mariology, and a whole host of other issues join the Catholic Church?

I have a lot of respect for the Catholic Church and many members of my family were Catholic, however I could never become Catholic because I do not believe with Catholic doctrine.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.

In other words, just because the Pope has allowed for the use of the Tridentine Mass it is still under the authority of the Pope.

Those who seek out Western Rite Orthodoxy are seeking the beauty of the Tridentine Mass, but sans Roman doctrine. Get it?
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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2011, 02:38:21 PM »

To turn this question on its head, why do Latin Rite Catholics change to Eastern Rite Catholics instead of becoming Orthodox?

Answer: They don't agree with Orthodox doctrine.

Stop looking at the superficial and start looking at the core of the issue.
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« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2011, 02:58:45 PM »

Thank you, FormerReformer, for proving my prejudices wrong.

A Protestant who converts to Orthodoxy after researching the history of the papacy, the filioque, and the doctrinal innovations since the schism isn't about to give the Roman Catholic Church a break on these issues, as they are still ongoing.

Fair enough.  I respect anyone who makes an informed decision to convert to any religion.  My prejudice that evangelicals would convert to Orthodoxy because it's the apostolic Christianity that's "not the Rome" is abrasive, and I apologise for that.

Still, if a Protestant is primarily interested in joining the Western Rite Orthodox, he or she should seriously consider becoming a traditional Catholic.  I would respect their decision to become WRO if it's a distinction made after thorough investigation.  Still, there is a cognitive disjunct, I think, to worship at the Tridentine Mass under the auspices of a canonical Orthodox patriarchy or autocephalous synod.  Yes, as of now Rome does not permit traditional Catholic priests to celebrate the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular (vernacular readings during the Mass are allowed, but the rest of the Mass must be in Latin).  I would not become Orthodox just to hear the ancient Mass in English.


Here you might not be stirring up much controversy on the RC/EO divide, but rather finding many EO coming out of the woodwork to agree with you.  The existence of the Western Rite is still more than a little controversial, which is one of the reasons that only two Orthodox jurisdictions (Antioch and ROCOR) even allow for it.

FWIW Western Rite is more akin to the new Anglican Ordinariate than anything else.  Tridentine is just one of the many options available to the users of the Western Rite, and according to OrthodoxWiki (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite) is in the minority usage, at least in the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate.  The Liturgy of St Tikhon is the majority use, appropriate for Anglican converts.  For High Church Lutherans converting to Orthodoxy the Liturgy of St George is more in keeping with their traditions, and not a cop-out to anti-Roman sentiment.  In ROCOR Anglicans who convert are apparently given a choice between Tridentine and the Sarum Rite or Gallican even (Sarum and Gallican being two of the sources for the Anglican BCP).

Also an interesting historical note, the first advocate of the Western Rite was not a Protestant convert, but a convert from Roman Catholicism- Joseph Overbeck.
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« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2011, 03:06:03 PM »

  It's all rather insulting. 
It's not about you.
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« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2011, 03:14:12 PM »

Okay, sticking my hand into the piranha tank on this one.

Yes, this post is inflammatory. 

This is entirely due to how you presented your question, not due to the nature of the topic.

Nevertheless, I do have some strong biases about this issue. 

I suspect that a number of evangelical converts to Orthodoxy often take a hard apologetic tack against Roman Catholicism out of historical prejudices and not a reasoned stance against Rome.

Translation: People who make decisions I disagree with are irrational.

It's all rather insulting.  I also think it's rather petty

Sometime, when you get over yourself, ask me why my experience in RCIA convinced me that the RCC was wrong. It was only afterward that I began to consider the EOC.
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« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2011, 03:46:18 PM »


Sometime, when you get over yourself, ask me why my experience in RCIA convinced me that the RCC was wrong. It was only afterward that I began to consider the EOC.

I was an RCIA catechist for years.  You would not be the first only or most well informed person to not go forward and become Catholic.  So perhaps once you get over yourself, we could talk?
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« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2011, 03:57:37 PM »

So perhaps once you get over yourself, we could talk?

laugh  Um, no. There are less polemic RCC apologists I would seek out first. But thank you.
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« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2011, 04:02:26 PM »

So perhaps once you get over yourself, we could talk?

laugh  Um, no. There are less polemic RCC apologists I would seek out first. But thank you.

I'll just bet there are.  Maybe you can bamboozle them.

Fact of the matter is that I am no apologist.  I live and breathe my faith and so when I am told an untruth about my faith or the faith of Roman rite Catholics, just like you would do for Orthodoxy, I am going to say "No.  That's not quite right..."...I might be nicer than you are about it, I might be more like you...but I would say something, you betcha!!
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« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2011, 04:07:08 PM »

Okay, sticking my hand into the piranha tank on this one.

While I sincerely believe that most Protestants convert to Orthodoxy out of personal conviction, I am convinced that a small number of Protestants (especially those from non-mainline, evangelical Protestantism) convert to Orthodoxy mainly because they wish to belong to an apostolic church that's simply "not Rome".   

There have been many evangelical Protestants that have happily converted to Roman Catholicism.  Also, there is now an ordinariate for Anglican converts.  There are not a few ex-Anglican priests and ex-Lutheran pastors now serving as Roman priests under dispensation. 

Nevertheless, I cannot shake the suspicion that some evangelicals will not even consider Rome when considering a move to apostolic Christianity.  What particularly galls me are the Protestants who convert to "Western Orthodoxy" and hear the Tridentine Mass in English.  Why not become Roman Catholic and hear Mass within the Church that is built around this liturgy?  It's all rather insulting.  I also think it's rather petty that someone would become Orthodox simply because they do not want to be perceived as Roman Catholic.

Yes, this post is inflammatory.  Nevertheless, I do have some strong biases about this issue.  I suspect that a number of evangelical converts to Orthodoxy often take a hard apologetic tack against Roman Catholicism out of historical prejudices and not a reasoned stance against Rome.


I think it centers on the RCC teaching on the place of the Pope. While Protestant aversion to Papal Authority can be a bit rough shod, they are in the main correct to see it as a heresy that must be avoided. So they come to the Orthodox and find a True Catholic path without the necessity to compromise on that issue.
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« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2011, 04:30:04 PM »

While I sincerely believe that most Protestants convert to Orthodoxy out of personal conviction, I am convinced that a small number of Protestants (especially those from non-mainline, evangelical Protestantism) convert to Orthodoxy mainly because they wish to belong to an apostolic church that's simply "not Rome"...

... I suspect that a number of evangelical converts to Orthodoxy often take a hard apologetic tack against Roman Catholicism out of historical prejudices and not a reasoned stance against Rome.

Agreed.
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« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2011, 04:41:01 PM »

While I sincerely believe that most Protestants convert to Orthodoxy out of personal conviction, I am convinced that a small number of Protestants (especially those from non-mainline, evangelical Protestantism) convert to Orthodoxy mainly because they wish to belong to an apostolic church that's simply "not Rome"...

... I suspect that a number of evangelical converts to Orthodoxy often take a hard apologetic tack against Roman Catholicism out of historical prejudices and not a reasoned stance against Rome.

Agreed.

Perhaps one of the keys to understanding what is going on is to look at those "hard line" evangelicals who become Catholic rather than Orthodox.  What is it that they have come to terms with that others have not, and why?...

Another thing you need to bear in mind is that conversions take more than one form.  Some are conversions of the heart; some are more of the mind or reasoned conversions; and some are spirit led.

So I always come back to the notion that each conversion is very very personal.  Meaning that we need to not paint with broad brush strokes to the point where we simply obscure the entire painting.
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« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2011, 04:46:07 PM »

While I sincerely believe that most Protestants convert to Orthodoxy out of personal conviction, I am convinced that a small number of Protestants (especially those from non-mainline, evangelical Protestantism) convert to Orthodoxy mainly because they wish to belong to an apostolic church that's simply "not Rome"...

... I suspect that a number of evangelical converts to Orthodoxy often take a hard apologetic tack against Roman Catholicism out of historical prejudices and not a reasoned stance against Rome.

Agreed.

Perhaps one of the keys to understanding what is going on is to look at those "hard line" evangelicals who become Catholic rather than Orthodox.  What is it that they have come to terms with that others have not, and why?...

Another thing you need to bear in mind is that conversions take more than one form.  Some are conversions of the heart; some are more of the mind or reasoned conversions; and some are spirit led.

So I always come back to the notion that each conversion is very very personal.  Meaning that we need to not paint with broad brush strokes to the point where we simply obscure the entire painting.

Good points, and I apologize if I offended anyone, I just thought there might be something to it, even regarding my own spiritual journey. Smiley
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« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2011, 04:49:16 PM »

Asteriktos you battle with alot of rationlism and skepticsm with your faith, no?
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« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2011, 04:53:23 PM »

Asteriktos you battle with alot of rationlism and skepticsm with your faith, no?

Yes, that's true... still trying to figure out how it all works together (and I can hear ozgeorge groaning at me for wanting to "figure things out"  Cheesy ).
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« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2011, 04:58:59 PM »

Asteriktos you battle with alot of rationlism and skepticsm with your faith, no?

Yes, that's true... still trying to figure out how it all works together (and I can hear ozgeorge groaning at me for wanting to "figure things out"  Cheesy ).
LOL I lost my faith in Protestant Christianity when I had to rationalize the Bible against its critics. It became so tiresome.

I took Elder Paisos' advice about faith without thinking too much works wonders, but it's hard for a guy like me who loves to think to put that advice into practice. There's things that we aren't going to know in life, unanswered questions, but it's how we live with those unanswered questions I think is the key; just accepting we can't rationalize away everything. I wish you the best of luck brother, and I join you in a similar struggle.
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« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2011, 05:02:07 PM »

While I sincerely believe that most Protestants convert to Orthodoxy out of personal conviction, I am convinced that a small number of Protestants (especially those from non-mainline, evangelical Protestantism) convert to Orthodoxy mainly because they wish to belong to an apostolic church that's simply "not Rome"...

... I suspect that a number of evangelical converts to Orthodoxy often take a hard apologetic tack against Roman Catholicism out of historical prejudices and not a reasoned stance against Rome.

Agreed.

Perhaps one of the keys to understanding what is going on is to look at those "hard line" evangelicals who become Catholic rather than Orthodox.  What is it that they have come to terms with that others have not, and why?...

Another thing you need to bear in mind is that conversions take more than one form.  Some are conversions of the heart; some are more of the mind or reasoned conversions; and some are spirit led.

So I always come back to the notion that each conversion is very very personal.  Meaning that we need to not paint with broad brush strokes to the point where we simply obscure the entire painting.

Good points, and I apologize if I offended anyone, I just thought there might be something to it, even regarding my own spiritual journey. Smiley

I don't think you are offensive. 

I think it is interesting that you seek to "figure" things out but you seem to have no trouble speaking of a "spiritual" journey...How does your own experience bear up to what has been said so far in this discussion?

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« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2011, 05:21:04 PM »

I think it is interesting that you seek to "figure" things out but you seem to have no trouble speaking of a "spiritual" journey...How does your own experience bear up to what has been said so far in this discussion?

Well, around 2000/2001, after I had left Protestantism, I was thinking about becoming either Orthodox or Catholic. I don't think I pursued Orthodoxy rather than Catholicism because I didn't want to seem Catholic... having said that, looking back, I don't think I fully explored things properly, or really gave Catholicism the chance it deserved. While I was reading anti-Catholic Orthodox authors (Whelton, St. Justin Popovich, etc.), when it came to Catholics I was mostly reading more moderate or liberal people (Hans Kung, Fr. Basil Pennington, etc.) and avoiding the books that argued directly for Catholicism. I did read some stuff by the apologist Dave Armstrong online, but for the most part I didn't do Catholicism justice. I'm not sure why exactly. Maybe it wasn't that I didn't want to appear Catholic, but maybe I wanted something different (most of the family on my Father's side is Catholic, and I was baptized Catholic as an infant), or something that seemed more mysterious. At the time I believe I was sincere, but I also think (looking back) that I wasn't going about things in a balanced way.

Anyway, when I was a Protestant I attended a very anti-Catholic church. The doctrine and especially eschatology was vehemently anti-Catholic, and people would even take shots at Catholicism with jokes meant to put Catholics down. I can totally envision someone who bought into all the "Catholicism is of satan" stuff that that Church taught to avoid Catholicism just because it was Catholicism. Now, admittedly, the church wasn't high on Orthodoxy either, but Orthodoxy never got mentioned (except when I brought it up when I was leaving). But this is certainly a very sensitive area to discuss, and I don't mean to point fingers at anyone here.

Asteriktos you battle with alot of rationlism and skepticsm with your faith, no?

Yes, that's true... still trying to figure out how it all works together (and I can hear ozgeorge groaning at me for wanting to "figure things out"  Cheesy ).
LOL I lost my faith in Protestant Christianity when I had to rationalize the Bible against its critics. It became so tiresome.

I took Elder Paisos' advice about faith without thinking too much works wonders, but it's hard for a guy like me who loves to think to put that advice into practice. There's things that we aren't going to know in life, unanswered questions, but it's how we live with those unanswered questions I think is the key; just accepting we can't rationalize away everything. I wish you the best of luck brother, and I join you in a similar struggle.

Thank you, I wish you well as well Smiley
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« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2011, 05:33:27 PM »

I think it centers on the RCC teaching on the place of the Pope. While Protestant aversion to Papal Authority can be a bit rough shod, they are in the main correct to see it as a heresy that must be avoided. So they come to the Orthodox and find a True Catholic path without the necessity to compromise on that issue.

Good point.  I've thought that this might be the case for many evangelical Protestant converts.  So many evangelical tracts (okay, yes, Jack Chick, but even much more thoughtful and less insulting ones) tend to not have a very well formed understanding of Catholic sacramentality.  The only area of Catholicism that evangelical apologists seem to understand very well is papal supremacy.  There seems to be this foreboding fear among a small section of evangelicalism that the Romans have some magical, Illuminati-like special force that will one day turn into a grand persecution of evangelicals that cannot accurately recite the definition of transubstantiation from the Tridentine Catechism in 30 seconds or less.  This is, of course, utter crap and completely unrealistic.  Still, there is this sort of lingering "no popery" sentiment among some evangelicals.  Maybe there are very few evangelical converts to Protestantism that convert solely because of this prejudice (I hope so!)  

Perhaps the synodic structure of Orthodoxy is more comforting to those used to congregationalist governance.

Nevertheless, all of us (including me) in one form or another, have prejudices.  Interestingly, we young Catholics were always told to dismiss evangelical Christianity as a simplistic, unreasoned, non-intellectual, and liturgically vapid.  These prejudices have stuck with me for many years.  The train tracks travel both ways.
  
Those who seek out Western Rite Orthodoxy are seeking the beauty of the Tridentine Mass, but sans Roman doctrine. Get it?

One of these days I'll do an exegesis of the Roman Canon through the Latin text.  One cannot profess the "beauty" of the Tridentine Mass without professing the Catholic dogma of the Eucharist.  The two go hand-in-hand.  If one honestly believes in the theology of the Tridentine Mass, he or she should be a Roman Catholic.  I am convinced of this, and I'd be happy to show you why.
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« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2011, 05:50:33 PM »

Nevertheless, I do have some strong biases about this issue. 

I suspect that a number of evangelical converts to Orthodoxy often take a hard apologetic tack against Roman Catholicism out of historical prejudices and not a reasoned stance against Rome.

Translation: People who make decisions I disagree with are irrational.

I have met a number of ex-Protestant Orthodox converts in person, akin to FormerReformer here in the forum, who can discuss this issue without name-calling.  This is a sensitive issue, but it's one that Catholics and Orthodox need to discuss together. 

Sometime, when you get over yourself, ask me why my experience in RCIA convinced me that the RCC was wrong. It was only afterward that I began to consider the EOC.

RCIA is a very deficient program.  It's a made up "rite" that progressive Catholics came up with after the Council.  It's a misguided attempt to restore the pre-Constantinian catechumenate.  We should go back to inquirer's groups and small scale instruction.

Problem is, RCIA is often run by laypeople who are almost as uncatechized as the "catechumens" (inquirers).  Often heresy is taught; sometimes on purpose, sometimes by accident.  The RCIA textbooks often portray this happy-clappy, uncritical view of the Novus Ordo that tends to downplay or even outright mock traditional Catholic piety and Tridentine Catholicism.   Also, from what I've seen, there's a fair amount of sentimentality.  There are good options here and there: some groups such as Opus Dei run orthodox, non-nonsense RCIA on behalf of other parishes.  Those who are lucky enough to find a Tridentine-rite-oriented church will probably get orthodox instruction.  On the whole, the lay catechist led RCIA has caused more confusion and has lost much more for Rome than it has gained (at least in North America.)
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« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2011, 05:54:21 PM »

I think it centers on the RCC teaching on the place of the Pope. While Protestant aversion to Papal Authority can be a bit rough shod, they are in the main correct to see it as a heresy that must be avoided. So they come to the Orthodox and find a True Catholic path without the necessity to compromise on that issue.

Good point.  I've thought that this might be the case for many evangelical Protestant converts.  So many evangelical tracts (okay, yes, Jack Chick, but even much more thoughtful and less insulting ones) tend to not have a very well formed understanding of Catholic sacramentality.  The only area of Catholicism that evangelical apologists seem to understand very well is papal supremacy.  There seems to be this foreboding fear among a small section of evangelicalism that the Romans have some magical, Illuminati-like special force that will one day turn into a grand persecution of evangelicals that cannot accurately recite the definition of transubstantiation from the Tridentine Catechism in 30 seconds or less.  This is, of course, utter crap and completely unrealistic.  Still, there is this sort of lingering "no popery" sentiment among some evangelicals.  Maybe there are very few evangelical converts to Protestantism that convert solely because of this prejudice (I hope so!)  

Perhaps the synodic structure of Orthodoxy is more comforting to those used to congregationalist governance.

Nevertheless, all of us (including me) in one form or another, have prejudices.  Interestingly, we young Catholics were always told to dismiss evangelical Christianity as a simplistic, unreasoned, non-intellectual, and liturgically vapid.  These prejudices have stuck with me for many years.  The train tracks travel both ways.
Yes. I grew up in a very diverse area and I attended Catholic school for my entire life. I am ashamed to say this, but I knew about Jewish people, atheist people, Muslim people, Hindus, etc. and I learned about those faiths (or lack thereof) growing up. I NEVER learned about Orthodoxy and I studied Protestantism very briefly (I'm talking about a lesson in History class about Martin Luther) in high school.


One day I was speaking to a student and she mentioned that she wasn't Catholic. "What are you? Atheist? Muslim?" I asked her. She responded that she was Episcopalian and I had NO idea what that meant. I was in awe when a non-denominational friend told me about dancing in church and drinking grape juice. I thought they were a bunch of freaks. (There may have been more that I met, but they didn't discuss religion with me so I most likely assumed that they weren't believers at all.)

I went to college and I was smack in the northern part of the Bible Belt. I met Protestants for really, the first time in my life. They would ask me if I were Christian, if I were saved. I would respond, "Um, I'm Catholic." The girl who became my best friend pulled me over and said, "Stop saying that you're not Christian, you're Catholic. We're all in this together."

She brought me to a charismatic church. I partly think that I rebelled from Catholicism because I was so angry that I had never been exposed to the "other side" of Christianity, that leaders of the school groups would turn on the televangelist channel and make fun of the preachers saying "Praise the Lord!" and mock the charismatic style of dancing.

And I am dead serious when I say that my award winning, college prep high school did NOT teach one thing about Orthodoxy. I don't remember it. It may have been one brief lesson of the schism. (I wish I had my religion books again) Our religion dept. at the college also didn't offer any classes about it.

I DID learn that many Protestants have a fear of the pope, and I never considered going back to the Catholic Church because I had my doubts about the Papal Authority and Supremacy, even as a child. Sometimes things don't unfold very neatly, and I am not ashamed to admit that I first looked at the Orthodox church as a way to compromise with my husband, who really wanted to become Catholic (although now, I don't think he quite understood what the implications of that were). I prayed about it for months and I started to realize that I was searching for a Church like the Orthodox Church all along. I nearly had to drag HIM to the church the first time.

The super-Protestant friend I mentioned in the beginning? She did not like Catholics very much. She is now in the RCIA program. I never thought this would happen, and sometimes things don't happen as we think they should. But God leads us down certain roads for certain reasons...I understand your complaint, jordanz, and I do sympathize with the anti-Rome sentiment so prevalent in other churches but believe me, my Protestant friends and in-laws are by no means happier about our path to Orthodoxy... Undecided
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« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2011, 05:58:20 PM »


Problem is, RCIA is often run by laypeople who are almost as uncatechized as the "catechumens" (inquirers).  Often heresy is taught; sometimes on purpose, sometimes by accident.  The RCIA textbooks often portray this happy-clappy, uncritical view of the Novus Ordo that tends to downplay or even outright mock traditional Catholic piety and Tridentine Catholicism.   Also, from what I've seen, there's a fair amount of sentimentality.  There are good options here and there: some groups such as Opus Dei run orthodox, non-nonsense RCIA on behalf of other parishes.  Those who are lucky enough to find a Tridentine-rite-oriented church will probably get orthodox instruction.  On the whole, the lay catechist led RCIA has caused more confusion and has lost much more for Rome than it has gained (at least in North America.)

You must be a very important figure in the Roman rite to be able to make this kind of sweeping statement about the Church.  I don't think anyone could make that kind of statement without having access to literally thousands of parishes in the United States alone!!

I am impressed!!
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« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2011, 05:59:03 PM »

I was an RCIA catechist for years.

RCIA is a very deficient program.

Problem is, RCIA is often run by laypeople who are almost as uncatechized as the "catechumens" (inquirers).  Often heresy is taught; sometimes on purpose, sometimes by accident.

On the whole, the lay catechist led RCIA has caused more confusion and has lost much more for Rome than it has gained (at least in North America.)

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« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2011, 06:01:31 PM »

To turn this question on its head, why do Latin Rite Catholics change to Eastern Rite Catholics instead of becoming Orthodox?

Answer: They don't agree with Orthodox doctrine.

Stop looking at the superficial and start looking at the core of the issue.

I was a devout Roman Catholic, and I started attending the Melkite Divine Liturgy in 1993.

After that first Divine Liturgy, I spoke with a Catholic Melkite Priest, who was Irish.
I asked him why the Eastern Catholic Church existed, and why Melkites were not Orthodox.
He mentioned that the Melkites were originally Orthodox in communion with the Antiochian Patriarch.
However, the Jesuits and Franciscans came into Lebanon and Syria and started converting the Melkites.
In 1724, many Melkites were received into the Catholic Church as Eastern Catholics.

With permission of this priest, I started attending inquiry classes at a local Greek Orthodox Church.
The rest is history, and our entire family was received by Holy Chrismation.
My father informed me that I had returned to my roots as my family is of French Lebanese descent.
In fact, I am related to St. Thomas More, whose family had come over from Normandy during the Normandy invasion.
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« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2011, 06:04:40 PM »

One of these days I'll do an exegesis of the Roman Canon through the Latin text.  One cannot profess the "beauty" of the Tridentine Mass without professing the Catholic dogma of the Eucharist.  The two go hand-in-hand.  If one honestly believes in the theology of the Tridentine Mass, he or she should be a Roman Catholic.  I am convinced of this, and I'd be happy to show you why.

As others have already said, the use of the Tridentine Mass makes up a small percentage of the Western Rite Orthodox. Western Rite Orthodoxy makes up an even smaller percentage of Orthodoxy, mostly in the US. Only 2-4% of Americans claim to be Orthodox.

So basically, you have a handful of people who are Orthodox using the Tridentine Mass. The Anaphora has been changed to conform with Orthodox standards.

You see, as you and I both know, our faith does not begin or end with Liturgy on Sunday.

I have studied the Catholic Mass, and despite its beauty and history, I could never become Catholic because of much of the dogma that the Catholic Church formalized leading up to and after the schism. It is for these reasons and others that people choose Orthodoxy over Catholicism.

I am glad that you are happy in your Catholic faith and that you are able to have a close relationship with Christ through that faith.

Why does it bother you so much that others are seeking a relationship with Christ through the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2011, 06:08:54 PM »

Problem is, RCIA is often run by laypeople who are almost as uncatechized as the "catechumens" (inquirers).  Often heresy is taught; sometimes on purpose, sometimes by accident.  The RCIA textbooks often portray this happy-clappy, uncritical view of the Novus Ordo that tends to downplay or even outright mock traditional Catholic piety and Tridentine Catholicism.   Also, from what I've seen, there's a fair amount of sentimentality.  There are good options here and there: some groups such as Opus Dei run orthodox, non-nonsense RCIA on behalf of other parishes.  Those who are lucky enough to find a Tridentine-rite-oriented church will probably get orthodox instruction.  On the whole, the lay catechist led RCIA has caused more confusion and has lost much more for Rome than it has gained (at least in North America.)

You must be a very important figure in the Roman rite to be able to make this kind of sweeping statement about the Church.  I don't think anyone could make that kind of statement without having access to literally thousands of parishes in the United States alone!!

I am impressed!!

I've studied the catechetical writings of many lay leaders in the RCIA.  From my point of view, there is little emphasis on rote learning of dogma and doctrine.  There are publications, such as the Baltimore Catechism no.3, which present all that a layperson needs to know about the Catholic faith in less than 150 pages.  Very direct and succinct, point by point apologetics.  Rather, RCIA leaders blather on about the "conversion experience" and "conversion liturgies" and "the music for the Liturgy of the Elect."  Balderdash.  Hand everyone a copy of the adult Baltimore Catechism, read, recite, read, recite, and examine.  That's the way to make sure both cradle Catholics and converts know their faith.  There's this notion that dogmatic instruction will turn off people and lots of cool ceremonies will get people interested.  Somewhere along the line, converts will need a solid dogmatic and doctrinal education.

I went through years of _Catholic_ school without learning the basic dogmas of Trent.  My parents paid thousands of dollars for me to read Erich Fromm's The Art of Loving and similar psycho-therapeutic texts rather than hunkering down and learning about hypostasis and the dogmatic definition of the sacraments.  RCIA is merely an extension of the post-Conciliar failure to provide solid, no-nonsense catechesis at all levels of Catholic instruction, both for cradle laity and converts.  Learning the nuts-and-bolts of a religious confession can't be touchy-feely if serious education is going to get done.
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« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2011, 06:14:09 PM »

I was an RCIA catechist for years.

RCIA is a very deficient program.

Problem is, RCIA is often run by laypeople who are almost as uncatechized as the "catechumens" (inquirers).  Often heresy is taught; sometimes on purpose, sometimes by accident.

On the whole, the lay catechist led RCIA has caused more confusion and has lost much more for Rome than it has gained (at least in North America.)



Catholic RCIA programs, depending upon the parish and the pastor, can be pretty superficial and sometimes heterodox.  But to claim that for the entire United States or the Catholic world is simply not truthful or real.  I appreciate the giggle you get out of this one but there is also a serious side to it, and Sir Jordon does over-step himself here...as he has in other places.  
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« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2011, 06:18:25 PM »

Problem is, RCIA is often run by laypeople who are almost as uncatechized as the "catechumens" (inquirers).  Often heresy is taught; sometimes on purpose, sometimes by accident.  The RCIA textbooks often portray this happy-clappy, uncritical view of the Novus Ordo that tends to downplay or even outright mock traditional Catholic piety and Tridentine Catholicism.   Also, from what I've seen, there's a fair amount of sentimentality.  There are good options here and there: some groups such as Opus Dei run orthodox, non-nonsense RCIA on behalf of other parishes.  Those who are lucky enough to find a Tridentine-rite-oriented church will probably get orthodox instruction.  On the whole, the lay catechist led RCIA has caused more confusion and has lost much more for Rome than it has gained (at least in North America.)

You must be a very important figure in the Roman rite to be able to make this kind of sweeping statement about the Church.  I don't think anyone could make that kind of statement without having access to literally thousands of parishes in the United States alone!!

I am impressed!!

I've studied the catechetical writings of many lay leaders in the RCIA.  From my point of view, there is little emphasis on rote learning of dogma and doctrine.  There are publications, such as the Baltimore Catechism no.3, which present all that a layperson needs to know about the Catholic faith in less than 150 pages.  Very direct and succinct, point by point apologetics.  Rather, RCIA leaders blather on about the "conversion experience" and "conversion liturgies" and "the music for the Liturgy of the Elect."  Balderdash.  Hand everyone a copy of the adult Baltimore Catechism, read, recite, read, recite, and examine.  That's the way to make sure both cradle Catholics and converts know their faith.  There's this notion that dogmatic instruction will turn off people and lots of cool ceremonies will get people interested.  Somewhere along the line, converts will need a solid dogmatic and doctrinal education.

I went through years of _Catholic_ school without learning the basic dogmas of Trent.  My parents paid thousands of dollars for me to read Erich Fromm's The Art of Loving and similar psycho-therapeutic texts rather than hunkering down and learning about hypostasis and the dogmatic definition of the sacraments.  RCIA is merely an extension of the post-Conciliar failure to provide solid, no-nonsense catechesis at all levels of Catholic instruction, both for cradle laity and converts.  Learning the nuts-and-bolts of a religious confession can't be touchy-feely if serious education is going to get done.

My dear, you are beginning to sound hysterical here.   I can take you personally to dozens of RCIA preparation classes now and show you exceptional teaching using all sorts of materials including the Catechism of the Catholic Church.  One need not return to the molly-coddling catechisms of the Baltimore Irish Jansenists in order to pass on the faith, Jordan. 
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« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2011, 06:19:30 PM »

I am glad that you are happy in your Catholic faith and that you are able to have a close relationship with Christ through that faith.

Why does it bother you so much that others are seeking a relationship with Christ through the Orthodox Church?

I am glad to see that you have found a reasoned and solid faith in Orthodoxy as well.

I am just hurt that perhaps there might be the chance that some Protestant converts to Orthodoxy converted simply because they wanted ancient Christianity without the sociocultural baggage of Catholicism.  I find that hurtful.  Then again, there are many things in life that are hurtful, and which we must deal with as adults rationally.  I should be glad that my former Protestant brothers and sisters have joined the fullness of Christ's Holy Church in Orthodoxy for whatever reason and for whatever circumstances.  Often, converts to any religious faith have to endure the criticism and even ostracism of other family members, peer groups, or extended family.

Even so, I should respect that everyone has a special reason for converting to one faith or another.  I apologize for being a reductionist about these matters.  However, it is not always bad for other parties to explore their prejudices.  This must be done with the consent of others, however.  I did not seek this consent, and that is where I went wrong.  I apologize to everyone here (but not about RCIA, however).
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« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2011, 06:31:26 PM »

  I apologize to everyone here (but not about RCIA, however).

You should.   You have fed a prejudice.  Told a partial truth as though it were the whole truth.  Done a severe injustice to those who do catechize the orthodox faith be it with children, adults or inquirers and catechumen.

I know that I will be taking you far less seriously from here on out.  You have allowed your personal biases to sour your mouth, and feed the very antagonisms that you deplore. 

But you are young and you are either going to get much worse with your ego bulging or you will learn a hard lesson or two.

Blessings...

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« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2011, 06:37:10 PM »

  I apologize to everyone here (but not about RCIA, however).

You should.   You have fed a prejudice.  Told a partial truth as though it were the whole truth.  Done a severe injustice to those who do catechize the orthodox faith be it with children, adults or inquirers and catechumen.

I know that I will be taking you far less seriously from here on out.  You have allowed your personal biases to sour your mouth, and feed the very antagonisms that you deplore. 

But you are young and you are either going to get much worse with your ego bulging or you will learn a hard lesson or two.

Blessings...



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« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2011, 06:41:00 PM »

  I apologize to everyone here (but not about RCIA, however).

You should.   You have fed a prejudice.  Told a partial truth as though it were the whole truth.  Done a severe injustice to those who do catechize the orthodox faith be it with children, adults or inquirers and catechumen.

I know that I will be taking you far less seriously from here on out.  You have allowed your personal biases to sour your mouth, and feed the very antagonisms that you deplore. 

But you are young and you are either going to get much worse with your ego bulging or you will learn a hard lesson or two.

Blessings...





Dear Jordon,

I believe that you now have the answer to your original question.

Mary
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« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2011, 06:41:50 PM »

My dear, you are beginning to sound hysterical here.   I can take you personally to dozens of RCIA preparation classes now and show you exceptional teaching using all sorts of materials including the Catechism of the Catholic Church.  One need not return to the molly-coddling catechisms of the Baltimore Irish Jansenists in order to pass on the faith, Jordan.  

Before I go, let me put in a plug for the Baltimore Catechism.

The Baltimore Catechism no.3, with suitable additional correction and instruction in light of the Second Vatican Council (particularly on Nostra Aetate and the Paschal Mystery) is a very valuable tool for catechesis and evangelization.  It offers dogmatic and doctrinal definitions in one to three sentence statements.  These statements can be memorized.  Heck, my elderly mother can still recite parts of the Baltimore Catechism from memory, and her faith is rock-solid orthodox.  Many poorly catechized Catholics my age think that the Eucharist is a "symbol".  Mom can recite the Tridentine dogma of the Holy Mass.

Yes, there are bits of the Baltimore Catechism that must be corrected, particularly in the areas of supersessionalism.  Perhaps a revised version should be issued that handles the Church's relationship with Judaism and other religions and other issues in a more modern and nuanced manner.  However, very little else needs to be changed.  This text continually nourishes the mind and soul with basic dogma and doctrine simply because it can be memorized and carried in the pocket without need for an bulky and expensive textbook series.  Baltimore Catechism #3 can be easily had for under $10, even less with the TAN thrift edition and bulk order.  Heck, one can have the HTML text from Project Gutenberg for free.

I taught myself the faith of the Universal Church from the Baltimore Catechism simply because the Catholic school teachers failed to do it the "first time around".  Better, then, to just give people the unvarnished Catholic faith up front, have them memorize it thoroughly, and then discuss more advanced aspects of the faith after the basics are down pat.      
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 06:46:36 PM by jordanz » Logged
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« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2011, 06:43:56 PM »

  I apologize to everyone here (but not about RCIA, however).

You should.   You have fed a prejudice.  Told a partial truth as though it were the whole truth.  Done a severe injustice to those who do catechize the orthodox faith be it with children, adults or inquirers and catechumen.

I know that I will be taking you far less seriously from here on out.  You have allowed your personal biases to sour your mouth, and feed the very antagonisms that you deplore. 

But you are young and you are either going to get much worse with your ego bulging or you will learn a hard lesson or two.

Blessings...





Dear Jordon,

I believe that you now have the answer to your original question.

Mary
Because we are not as smug as yourself?
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« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2011, 06:50:25 PM »

As a former Protestant who converted to Orthodoxy, I can tell you this; I studied Roman Catholicism for years before my conversion to Orthodoxy.  It was one of the FIRST things that I studied.  The problem was that Roman Catholicism is NOT Apostolic Christianity, but rather a heresy.  There are a number of Protestant denominations, including the one that I left, that are closer to Apostolic Christianity than Roman Catholicism.  So, if one were to be looking for Apostolic Christianity (as I was), the RC church is not an option.  In the end, I was left with only two options, Oriental Orthodoxy (which I nearly joined) and Eastern Orthodoxy.   
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« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2011, 06:54:33 PM »

As a former Protestant who converted to Orthodoxy, I can tell you this; I studied Roman Catholicism for years before my conversion to Orthodoxy.  It was one of the FIRST things that I studied.  The problem was that Roman Catholicism is NOT Apostolic Christianity, but rather a heresy.  There are a number of Protestant denominations, including the one that I left, that are closer to Apostolic Christianity than Roman Catholicism.  So, if one were to be looking for Apostolic Christianity (as I was), the RC church is not an option.  In the end, I was left with only two options, Oriental Orthodoxy (which I nearly joined) and Eastern Orthodoxy.   

And then there are those whose trajectories were the same as your own, seeking the faith of the Apostles and they are now in the Roman rite of the Catholic Church.

The question that I find fascinating is what makes the difference:  The faith?:  Or the person who studies the faith for so long and hard?
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« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2011, 07:02:15 PM »

Baltimore Catechism #3 can be easily had for under $10, even less with the TAN thrift edition and bulk order.  Heck, one can have the HTML text from Project Gutenberg for free.

Erm, make that $15.  TAN used to have really cheap editions, but I guess they need to make a buck as well.  The new editions look like Penguin thrift novels. 

There are a number of Protestant denominations, including the one that I left, that are closer to Apostolic Christianity than Roman Catholicism.

Which faiths are you talking about, and why are they more apostolic than Roman Catholicism?  I generally know which Catholic teachings some Orthodox find to be un-apostolic.  I've never heard the claim that some Protestant denominations are more apostolic than Catholicism, though.
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« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2011, 08:30:53 PM »

Dear OP:

All of my first cousins are Catholic.  I've had plenty of opportunities to see Catholic services over the years.  I made it a point to read up on what Catholics believe and there were some points that I couldn't get around.  Add the priest abuse scandal to the mix.  Then add me and my husband- who at the time we discovered Orthodoxy had pretty much written off Christianity entirely.  The particular issues I had with Catholicism didn't exist in Orthodoxy.  No offense, but it was Orthodoxy or nothing for us.  It wasn't special hate for Catholics.  I love my Catholic family.
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