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Author Topic: Liturgy of St James  (Read 2094 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 25, 2011, 05:35:03 PM »

Does anyone know how old this liturgy is. I hear it is the oldest, how far back does it go?
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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2011, 09:53:34 PM »

Some say that it goes back to AD 60, but others think that it was developed in the 4th century. I believe it was made around 60.
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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2011, 10:04:45 PM »

The rubrics of this liturgy call for communion in the hand.

Takes you back to when everyone received in the hand. Changes occurred because of irreverence and misuse (peasants would pocket the Eucharist, take it home, and plant it in their field to help the crops grow).
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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2011, 05:58:00 AM »

I have been told that the Liturgy of Addai and Mari might be older.
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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2011, 09:05:11 PM »

I've heard that it may date back as early as AD 60.
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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2013, 07:22:19 PM »

Can it be presided by a presbyter instead of bishop since it is supposed to origin when all services where presided by bishops?

Asking since in all places it's celebrated in Poland (I mean, in 2) it's done by a bishop.
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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2013, 07:32:29 PM »

As far as I know, Byzantine James can be celebrated by priests.  The only times I've ever seen it served in an EO church, it was served by priests. 
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« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2013, 07:42:20 PM »

Is it different being celebrated by a priest and bishop?
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« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2013, 07:47:15 PM »

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that Byzantine James doesn't have "hierarchical" and "priestly" versions.  For example, in photos I've never seen a bishop vested in sakkos, only the omophorion over the phelonion (I don't even recall the mitre being used).  I think there may be very few "hierarchical" elements incorporated into what is otherwise "normal" Liturgy (e.g., Eis polla eti, double-handed blessings, etc.). 

Certainly that much is true of Syriac James. 
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« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2013, 07:48:24 PM »

Does anyone know how old this liturgy is. I hear it is the oldest, how far back does it go?

1st-2nd century
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« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2013, 08:31:01 PM »

The liturgy as we have it now doesn't all come from the first, second, or even third centuries, but is a progression.
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« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2013, 08:40:57 PM »

The rubrics of this liturgy call for communion in the hand.

Takes you back to when everyone received in the hand. Changes occurred because of irreverence and misuse (peasants would pocket the Eucharist, take it home, and plant it in their field to help the crops grow).

Or they'd put it on their enemy's doorstep so he'd step on it and curse himself. Some people still try to pull off these sorts of abuses.
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« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2013, 05:32:30 AM »

The earliest record we have of the Liturgy of St. James is the description we find in St. Cyril of Jerusalem's fifth Mystagogical Catechesis, which dates from the second half of the 4th century (though some scholars claim the Lectures are later and should be attributed to his successor, John).

What he gives us is an outline of the Liturgy of the Faithful, so while what he describes matches the current content and structure very closely, we aren't able to reconstruct very much of the actual text.

Bradshaw has some very good articles on the development of St. James' Liturgy. John Fenwick and John Witvliet are also worth a read on the relationship between St. James' and St. Basil's anaphoras.
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« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2013, 05:41:35 AM »

The rubrics of this liturgy call for communion in the hand.

Takes you back to when everyone received in the hand. Changes occurred because of irreverence and misuse (peasants would pocket the Eucharist, take it home, and plant it in their field to help the crops grow).

St. Cyril even speaks of wiping the moisture from your lips after drinking from the chalice and "sanctifying" your brow, eyes, and other senses. Quite unthinkable today.
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« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2013, 06:19:04 AM »

It should be revived in Palestine and neglected elsewhere. Idon't see the need for spread it outside of it'traditional area.
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« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2013, 06:32:06 AM »

It should be revived in Palestine and neglected elsewhere. Idon't see the need for spread it outside of it'traditional area.

The only place it has been in continuous use until today is Greece, so I don't think it is unreasonable for it to be used more frequently by the Patriarchates of Antioch (where St. James used to be the primary liturgy) and Constantinople (whose liturgical tradition is Syro-Palestinian in origin), as well as the churches of Cyprus and Greece which were previously under their jurisdiction.
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« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2013, 10:30:24 AM »

It is also used by the British Orthodox Church, which uses the Greek version of the Liturgy (claiming it has been less altered than the Syriac) in an otherwise Coptic context. Moreover, they do use St. Cyril of Jerusalem's instructions for communing, including blessing the organs of sense with the moisture from one's lips.
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« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2013, 10:43:00 AM »

It should be revived in Palestine and neglected elsewhere. Idon't see the need for spread it outside of it'traditional area.

The only place it has been in continuous use until today is Greece, so I don't think it is unreasonable for it to be used more frequently by the Patriarchates of Antioch (where St. James used to be the primary liturgy) and Constantinople (whose liturgical tradition is Syro-Palestinian in origin), as well as the churches of Cyprus and Greece which were previously under their jurisdiction.

I recall the late and great Archbishop Iakovos, of thrice blessed memory, used to celebrate this on his name's day each year. Otherwise, I have no recollection of its use in America. 
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« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2013, 10:46:07 AM »

It should be revived in Palestine and neglected elsewhere. Idon't see the need for spread it outside of it'traditional area.

The only place it has been in continuous use until today is Greece, so I don't think it is unreasonable for it to be used more frequently by the Patriarchates of Antioch (where St. James used to be the primary liturgy) and Constantinople (whose liturgical tradition is Syro-Palestinian in origin), as well as the churches of Cyprus and Greece which were previously under their jurisdiction.

I recall the late and great Archbishop Iakovos, of thrice blessed memory, used to celebrate this on his name's day each year. Otherwise, I have no recollection of its use in America. 
Metropolitan Iakovos of Chicago, for the same reason.
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« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2013, 02:38:26 PM »

It should be revived in Palestine and neglected elsewhere. Idon't see the need for spread it outside of it'traditional area.

I don't see any problem if it's served once a year in other jurisdictions. It's really great to attend such old Liturgy, I think it call can enrich our spiritual life and develop our experience during "usual" Liturgy.

BTW, I would like to participate in the Pre-sanctified Liturgy of st. James - I've read in a Serbian source it used to be served in Palestine and Sinai until the XIV century...
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« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2013, 02:54:36 PM »

BTW, I would like to participate in the Pre-sanctified Liturgy of st. James - I've read in a Serbian source it used to be served in Palestine and Sinai until the XIV century...

Is this a different Presanctified Liturgy from the Syriac Presanctified Liturgy called the "Signing of the Chalice"? 
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« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2013, 05:17:53 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOKoJS7ABVc

Nice video of Liturgy of St James.
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« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2013, 07:38:12 PM »

It should be revived in Palestine and neglected elsewhere. Idon't see the need for spread it outside of it'traditional area.

The only place it has been in continuous use until today is Greece, so I don't think it is unreasonable for it to be used more frequently by the Patriarchates of Antioch (where St. James used to be the primary liturgy) and Constantinople (whose liturgical tradition is Syro-Palestinian in origin), as well as the churches of Cyprus and Greece which were previously under their jurisdiction.

I recall the late and great Archbishop Iakovos, of thrice blessed memory, used to celebrate this on his name's day each year. Otherwise, I have no recollection of its use in America. 
Metropolitan Iakovos of Chicago, for the same reason.

I've been to a so-called Liturgy of St. James on his feast day, but it looked exactly the same as St. John or St. Basil, only the silent prayers were different.
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« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2013, 09:25:22 PM »

I've been to a so-called Liturgy of St. James on his feast day, but it looked exactly the same as St. John or St. Basil, only the silent prayers were different.

When I went to a Byzantine James in NYC a few years back, it was not Chrysostom with different prayers.  The Liturgy of the Catechumens was at the bema with the three stands for the readings, the Great Entrance started within the iconostasis, exited the North door, out the side door into the narthex, back in and around the nave, etc.  The only thing that resembled "normal practice" as opposed to the rubrics of that Liturgy was Communion (i.e., there was no Communion in the hand). 
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« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2013, 10:53:36 PM »

The rubrics of this liturgy call for communion in the hand.

Takes you back to when everyone received in the hand. Changes occurred because of irreverence and misuse (peasants would pocket the Eucharist, take it home, and plant it in their field to help the crops grow).

Or they'd put it on their enemy's doorstep so he'd step on it and curse himself. Some people still try to pull off these sorts of abuses.

This reminds me of a recent German take on the Ultimate Game.
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« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2013, 02:45:25 PM »

BTW, I would like to participate in the Pre-sanctified Liturgy of st. James - I've read in a Serbian source it used to be served in Palestine and Sinai until the XIV century...

Is this a different Presanctified Liturgy from the Syriac Presanctified Liturgy called the "Signing of the Chalice"? 

To tell the truth, no idea, but I suppose it has to be very close. It would be nice to see some studies regarding this issue.

I've been to a so-called Liturgy of St. James on his feast day, but it looked exactly the same as St. John or St. Basil, only the silent prayers were different.

Maybe it was just Liturgy of st. John Chrysostom but with some additional/changed prayer because of the feast?... But it's not correct from liturgical view. I've attended once the Liturgy of st. James and it was totally different. Of course it is eastern, but some moments very reminded me of a well conducted Novus Ordo  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2013, 02:48:22 PM »

Maybe it was just Liturgy of st. John Chrysostom but with some additional/changed prayer because of the feast?... But it's not correct from liturgical view. I've attended once the Liturgy of st. James and it was totally different. Of course it is eastern, but some moments very reminded me of a well conducted Novus Ordo  Roll Eyes

From what I seen IRL and comparing it to some pictures on the Net there are multiple ways of serving it. For example I don't remember it being celebrated in front of the iconostasis or directed to people when I saw it in Białystok. Neither people were communed with Blood by drinking directly from chalice.
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« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2013, 03:21:55 PM »

From what I seen IRL and comparing it to some pictures on the Net there are multiple ways of serving it.

I could be wrong, but I don't think there are multiple legitimate ways of serving this Liturgy.  I have a feeling that, because it is "rare" and "unusual" as it is, celebrants take liberties with it in ways they wouldn't normally with the "standard" Liturgies.  I've seen "teaching Liturgies" done facing the people, outside the iconostasis, etc., but no one would consider that a legitimate alternative method of celebrating Chrysostom's Liturgy. 

People should just do the services by the book.  "Teaching" can be accomplished in more ways than "show and tell". 
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« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2013, 03:33:26 PM »

I think the reason it's occasionally celebrated outside the iconostasis is to allow for the celebrant to face west. So it's a practical concern, it's not done simply for the sake of being outside the iconostasis (at least I sincerely hope so).

I find the whole west-facing thing to be very suspect too. The evidence for it seems dubious, and even if it was done at some point, it isn't done now. Making use of an ancient liturgy is one thing, trying to recreate the ancient form of a rite that has undergone significant development over the centuries is both unnecessary and wholly arbitrary.
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« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2013, 03:41:29 PM »

From what I seen IRL and comparing it to some pictures on the Net there are multiple ways of serving it.

I could be wrong, but I don't think there are multiple legitimate ways of serving this Liturgy.  I have a feeling that, because it is "rare" and "unusual" as it is, celebrants take liberties with it in ways they wouldn't normally with the "standard" Liturgies.   

Or they just do not know hot to serve it properly.
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« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2013, 05:07:47 PM »

Or they just do not know hot to serve it properly.

The rubrics differ in places from the Chrysostom or Basil Liturgies, but it shouldn't present a major difficulty if you read it over carefully once or twice.  I would be more inclined to believe it was a matter of ignorance if, for example, a priest trained in the Byzantine rite was attempting to celebrate Syriac James.   
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« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2013, 05:09:54 PM »

I think the reason it's occasionally celebrated outside the iconostasis is to allow for the celebrant to face west. So it's a practical concern, it's not done simply for the sake of being outside the iconostasis (at least I sincerely hope so).

Unless the altar is directly against a wall, it should not be too difficult to move whatever furnishings are standing on the Eastern end of the altar and celebrate facing West.  There is space enough, usually, for a chair and those furnishings and to walk around. 
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« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2013, 05:10:34 PM »

Here rubrics precisely say priest should face the altar.

Unless the altar is directly against a wall, it should not be too difficult to move whatever furnishings are standing on the Eastern end of the altar and celebrate facing West.  There is space enough, usually, for a chair and those furnishings and to walk around. 

Not in all cases. From what I've seen, not in most cases.
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« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2013, 05:26:57 PM »

Unless the altar is directly against a wall, it should not be too difficult to move whatever furnishings are standing on the Eastern end of the altar and celebrate facing West.  There is space enough, usually, for a chair and those furnishings and to walk around.  

In a lot of places that would take a lot of time and effort, and in many places the shape and arrangement of the sanctuary would make it very difficult if not impossible. For example, very often the thing that holds the fans and crucifix behind the altar (not sure if there's a word for it) isn't movable.

For me, the simple solution to that problem is to face East, but that would be too boring.

Here rubrics precisely say priest should face the altar.

Either way, you're facing the altar. Did you mean East or West?
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« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2013, 05:31:35 PM »

Either way, you're facing the altar. Did you mean East or West?

It says in front of the altar and East, not behind/in back of the altar.
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« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2013, 05:35:25 PM »

It says in front of the altar and East, not behind/in back of the altar.

So the standard position. 

Thanks for the information about your altars.  I've seen enough to presume that it could be done, but I'll take your word for it as you likely spend more time back there than I do.  Wink

I always found it interesting that those who advocate celebrations towards the people based on the practice in "occidented" churches never put into practice the closely associated practice of instructing the people to "Look towards the East" or "Turn towards the Lord". 

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« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2013, 05:36:44 PM »

It says in front of the altar and East, not behind/in back of the altar.

That's the way I saw it done when I attended what was then a ROCOR monastery. It seems the Russian approach (do you know what the basis of the Polish version is?) is more conservative/cautious while the Greeks/Arabs have gone down the reconstruction/experimental route. I think the former is much more appropriate.
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« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2013, 05:37:39 PM »

It says in front of the altar and East, not behind/in back of the altar.

That's the way I saw it done when I attended what was then a ROCOR monastery. It seems the Russian approach (do you know what the basis of the Polish version is?) is more conservative/cautious while the Greeks/Arabs have gone down the reconstruction/experimental route. I think the former is much more appropriate.

It was translated from Greek, that's for sure. IDK from what exactly.
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« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2013, 11:18:31 PM »

Or they just do not know hot to serve it properly.

The rubrics differ in places from the Chrysostom or Basil Liturgies, but it shouldn't present a major difficulty if you read it over carefully once or twice.  I would be more inclined to believe it was a matter of ignorance if, for example, a priest trained in the Byzantine rite was attempting to celebrate Syriac James.   

There may be only one legitimate way, but there may be several different (well, definitely are) editions used, which may have variable rubrics. Sometimes some rubrics assume certain things--such as the Antiochian Liturgikon assuming there are pews.
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« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2013, 12:14:47 AM »

Sometimes some rubrics assume certain things--such as the Antiochian Liturgikon assuming there are pews.

Why the heck would that even need to factor into liturgical rubrics? 
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« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2013, 06:56:35 PM »

I don't think that there were pews in the Liturgy of St. James, so I think that that would be irrelevant. You are true about the fact that proper Russians rarely engage in liturgical experimentation.
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« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2013, 06:57:28 PM »

I don't think that there were pews in the Liturgy of St. James, so I think that that would be irrelevant. You are true about the fact that proper Russians rarely engage in liturgical experimentation.

What is a "proper Russian"?
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« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2013, 07:00:29 PM »

You are true about the fact that proper Russians rarely engage in liturgical experimentation.

Now you've done it...
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« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2013, 07:00:40 PM »

Sometimes some rubrics assume certain things--such as the Antiochian Liturgikon assuming there are pews.

Why the heck would that even need to factor into liturgical rubrics? 

The ways of liturgical editors and translators are exceedingly mysterious.
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« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2013, 07:01:36 PM »

I don't think that there were pews in the Liturgy of St. James, so I think that that would be irrelevant. You are true about the fact that proper Russians rarely engage in liturgical experimentation.

What is a "proper Russian"?
Those in ROCOR and the Moscow Patriarchate who study liturgics and know what to do. I really meant Russians with proper practices, who are worth their liturgical salt.
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