OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 21, 2014, 04:01:27 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Catholic weddings drop 71 percent in R.I.  (Read 953 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« on: March 21, 2011, 05:29:38 PM »

Is this a growing problem for just Catholics, or are Orthodox also having problems convincing younger people to be married in Church?  One of my observations about the RCC is that, in the modern Church (Especially in the U.S.) They make the sacraments all about the "community" as opposed to channels of grace which are necessary for believers.  So much emphasis is placed on the individuals being married not because marriage is a sacrament/mystery necessary for them, but only because they, as members of their local Catholic community need marriage as some type of "communal sign".  The same goes for the other sacrament which have become mere forms of "community gathering and self affirmation".
I'm not sure if the Vatican itself supports these new definitions, but the RCC in America and some other countries certainly tries to push these concept's.  



http://www.Provo.com/religion/content/MARRIAGE_DECLINE__03-20-11_GNM15D3_v99.1AF8060.HTML#

Catholic weddings drop 71 percent in R.I.

01:00 AM EDT on Sunday, March 20, 2011

By Richard C. Du jardin

Journal Staff Writer


PROVIDENCE — Michaela Connemara never set out to marry outside the Catholic Church. It just turned out that way.

It was 2005. Michaela, then 29, had met Nelson Mare when he came the previous August from Portugal to visit his parents, who lived next door to her in Washington Park. Now they were engaged — and eager to wed.

There was no urgency, except that we were in love,” she recalls. We were thinking we could get married in four or five weeks.”

Michaela, a lifelong Catholic, had been baptized and confirmed, and even had led  classes. Nelson, too, had grown up a devout Catholic. When Michaela called St. Paul's parish in Cr anston to arrange a date, she thought there would be no problem.

She was wrong.

They asked if I was registered in the parish, which I was not. Then they told me we needed to be engaged and be coming to the church for at least six months to a year. I started calling other parishes, and got the same thing. …

Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2011, 05:39:19 PM »

Is this a growing problem for just Catholics, or are Orthodox also having problems convincing younger people to be married in Church?  One of my observations about the RCC is that, in the modern Church (Especially in the U.S.) They make the sacraments all about the "community" as opposed to channels of grace which are necessary for believers.  So much emphasis is placed on the individuals being married not because marriage is a sacrament/mystery necessary for them, but only because they, as members of their local Catholic community need marriage as some type of "communal sign".  The same goes for the other sacrament which have become mere forms of "community gathering and self affirmation".
I'm not sure if the Vatican itself supports these new definitions, but the RCC in America and some other countries certainly tries to push these concept's.  



http://www.Provo.com/religion/content/MARRIAGE_DECLINE__03-20-11_GNM15D3_v99.1AF8060.HTML#

Catholic weddings drop 71 percent in R.I.

01:00 AM EDT on Sunday, March 20, 2011

By Richard C. Du jardin

Journal Staff Writer


PROVIDENCE — Michaela Connemara never set out to marry outside the Catholic Church. It just turned out that way.

It was 2005. Michaela, then 29, had met Nelson Mare when he came the previous August from Portugal to visit his parents, who lived next door to her in Washington Park. Now they were engaged — and eager to wed.

There was no urgency, except that we were in love,” she recalls. We were thinking we could get married in four or five weeks.”

Michaela, a lifelong Catholic, had been baptized and confirmed, and even had led  classes. Nelson, too, had grown up a devout Catholic. When Michaela called St. Paul's parish in Cr anston to arrange a date, she thought there would be no problem.

She was wrong.

They asked if I was registered in the parish, which I was not. Then they told me we needed to be engaged and be coming to the church for at least six months to a year. I started calling other parishes, and got the same thing. …



I am curious to see if any of the Orthodox clergy might be able to see more clearly the reasoning behind this particular case as an example.  I have not read the whole article but I know that what is going on here in this instance, Robb, is not what you think it is, based upon what you've written here.

M.
Logged

Orual
Orthodoxy = 7, not 3
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Sunday Morning Costume Parade
Posts: 931


I'm just here for the food.


« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2011, 06:05:09 PM »

There's a typo in the URL.  It should be "projo".
Logged

He spoke it as kindly and heartily as could be; as if a man dashed a gallon of cold water in your broth and never doubted you'd like it all the better. 

- C.S. Lewis, Till We Have Faces
f.k.a. Matron.a
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,095


WWW
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2011, 06:31:56 PM »

Reading the article requires registration with the Projo.com website.  Is there a non-registration required version of this article?

There is a similar thread on the decline of marriages and baptisms in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.

Is the 71% decline from year to year or during a much longer period of time?

Found the answer - it's over 40 years with source from the Boston Globe


Quote
The Providence Journal reported Sunday that the number of Catholic weddings in the state dropped from nearly 4,500 a year to just 1,300 from 1969 to 2009, while total marriages dropped 17 percent during the same span.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 06:37:38 PM by SolEX01 » Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2011, 06:41:56 PM »

Reading the article requires registration with the Projo.com website.  Is there a non-registration required version of this article?

There is a similar thread on the decline of marriages and baptisms in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.

Is the 71% decline from year to year or during a much longer period of time?

Found the answer - it's over 40 years with source from the Boston Globe


Quote
The Providence Journal reported Sunday that the number of Catholic weddings in the state dropped from nearly 4,500 a year to just 1,300 from 1969 to 2009, while total marriages dropped 17 percent during the same span.


http://www.Provo.com/religion/

Try the global link and you'll find the link to the article right there
Logged

serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,323


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2011, 08:21:35 PM »

Both of the links didn't work for me.  ideas?
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2011, 08:26:01 PM »

One of my observations about the RCC is that, in the modern Church (Especially in the U.S.) They make the sacraments all about the "community" as opposed to channels of grace which are necessary for believers.  So much emphasis is placed on the individuals being married not because marriage is a sacrament/mystery necessary for them, but only because they, as members of their local Catholic community need marriage as some type of "communal sign".  The same goes for the other sacrament which have become mere forms of "community gathering and self affirmation".
I'm not sure if the Vatican itself supports these new definitions, but the RCC in America and some other countries certainly tries to push these concept's.

Sacraments are both. They are not personal ways for us to receive grace. We receive them in, through, and with the Church as the Body of Christ.

Quote
http://www.Provo.com/religion/content/MARRIAGE_DECLINE__03-20-11_GNM15D3_v99.1AF8060.HTML#
'There was no urgency, except that we were in love,” she recalls. We were thinking we could get married in four or five weeks.”

Michaela, a lifelong Catholic, had been baptized and confirmed, and even had led  classes. Nelson, too, had grown up a devout Catholic. When Michaela called St. Paul's parish in Cr anston to arrange a date, she thought there would be no problem.

She was wrong.

They asked if I was registered in the parish, which I was not. Then they told me we needed to be engaged and be coming to the church for at least six months to a year. I started calling other parishes, and got the same thing. …

I don't think 6 months is too long to wait for someone to make a lifelong commitment. It's better than marrying any two people as soon as they can have the proper paperwork filled out.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Orual
Orthodoxy = 7, not 3
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Sunday Morning Costume Parade
Posts: 931


I'm just here for the food.


« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2011, 08:29:22 PM »

This is the right link:  http://www.projo.com/religion/content/MARRIAGE_DECLINE__03-20-11_GNM15D3_v99.1af8060.html
Logged

He spoke it as kindly and heartily as could be; as if a man dashed a gallon of cold water in your broth and never doubted you'd like it all the better. 

- C.S. Lewis, Till We Have Faces
f.k.a. Matron.a
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2011, 08:42:28 PM »

One of my observations about the RCC is that, in the modern Church (Especially in the U.S.) They make the sacraments all about the "community" as opposed to channels of grace which are necessary for believers.  So much emphasis is placed on the individuals being married not because marriage is a sacrament/mystery necessary for them, but only because they, as members of their local Catholic community need marriage as some type of "communal sign".  The same goes for the other sacrament which have become mere forms of "community gathering and self affirmation".
I'm not sure if the Vatican itself supports these new definitions, but the RCC in America and some other countries certainly tries to push these concept's.

Sacraments are both. They are not personal ways for us to receive grace. We receive them in, through, and with the Church as the Body of Christ.

Quote
http://www.Provo.com/religion/content/MARRIAGE_DECLINE__03-20-11_GNM15D3_v99.1AF8060.HTML#
'There was no urgency, except that we were in love,” she recalls. We were thinking we could get married in four or five weeks.”

Michaela, a lifelong Catholic, had been baptized and confirmed, and even had led  classes. Nelson, too, had grown up a devout Catholic. When Michaela called St. Paul's parish in Cr anston to arrange a date, she thought there would be no problem.

She was wrong.

They asked if I was registered in the parish, which I was not. Then they told me we needed to be engaged and be coming to the church for at least six months to a year. I started calling other parishes, and got the same thing. …

I don't think 6 months is too long to wait for someone to make a lifelong commitment. It's better than marrying any two people as soon as they can have the proper paperwork filled out.

Yes.  I figured someone would see through this.

The reason that a couple are expected to be in a parish for six months prior to being married by that pastor is because of the divorce rate, and the grim realization among Catholic clergy, that the a great part of the fault lay at the feet of the Church for not preparing young people for marriage.  You cannot do that in a week or even two weeks.  The other thing that happens, and I know this because I've had to deal with it in a parish, is that the divorce rate is highest among those who were sexually intimate prior to marriage.  Therefore it is very often now a requirement of the couple, before the pastor will even agree to prepare them for marriage, that they separate sexually and live continent lives till the time of the wedding.  For some that is not an impediment once it is explained to them.  For others, it is a deal breaker and they go elsewhere...somewhere secular generally.

Also your point about the sacrament of marriage being both corporate and personal is well taken.

Thanks for your comments!!  All appreciated.

M.
Logged

serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,323


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2011, 11:03:59 PM »

One of my observations about the RCC is that, in the modern Church (Especially in the U.S.) They make the sacraments all about the "community" as opposed to channels of grace which are necessary for believers.  So much emphasis is placed on the individuals being married not because marriage is a sacrament/mystery necessary for them, but only because they, as members of their local Catholic community need marriage as some type of "communal sign".  The same goes for the other sacrament which have become mere forms of "community gathering and self affirmation".
I'm not sure if the Vatican itself supports these new definitions, but the RCC in America and some other countries certainly tries to push these concept's.

Sacraments are both. They are not personal ways for us to receive grace. We receive them in, through, and with the Church as the Body of Christ.

Quote
http://www.Provo.com/religion/content/MARRIAGE_DECLINE__03-20-11_GNM15D3_v99.1AF8060.HTML#
'There was no urgency, except that we were in love,” she recalls. We were thinking we could get married in four or five weeks.”

Michaela, a lifelong Catholic, had been baptized and confirmed, and even had led  classes. Nelson, too, had grown up a devout Catholic. When Michaela called St. Paul's parish in Cr anston to arrange a date, she thought there would be no problem.

She was wrong.

They asked if I was registered in the parish, which I was not. Then they told me we needed to be engaged and be coming to the church for at least six months to a year. I started calling other parishes, and got the same thing. …

I don't think 6 months is too long to wait for someone to make a lifelong commitment. It's better than marrying any two people as soon as they can have the proper paperwork filled out.

Yes.  I figured someone would see through this.

The reason that a couple are expected to be in a parish for six months prior to being married by that pastor is because of the divorce rate, and the grim realization among Catholic clergy, that the a great part of the fault lay at the feet of the Church for not preparing young people for marriage.  You cannot do that in a week or even two weeks.  The other thing that happens, and I know this because I've had to deal with it in a parish, is that the divorce rate is highest among those who were sexually intimate prior to marriage.  Therefore it is very often now a requirement of the couple, before the pastor will even agree to prepare them for marriage, that they separate sexually and live continent lives till the time of the wedding.  For some that is not an impediment once it is explained to them.  For others, it is a deal breaker and they go elsewhere...somewhere secular generally.

Also your point about the sacrament of marriage being both corporate and personal is well taken.

Thanks for your comments!!  All appreciated.

M.

Yah, I think that transparency is good though, on all ends.  Perhaps if the priest had told them this was the reason for denying their request, things would have gone smoother.  Also, if they offered a Marriage Prep course or something like that, it probably would have been helpful in the situation. 

the overall situation has much deeper issues going on.  very interesting article. 
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2011, 03:11:32 AM »

One of my observations about the RCC is that, in the modern Church (Especially in the U.S.) They make the sacraments all about the "community" as opposed to channels of grace which are necessary for believers.  So much emphasis is placed on the individuals being married not because marriage is a sacrament/mystery necessary for them, but only because they, as members of their local Catholic community need marriage as some type of "communal sign".  The same goes for the other sacrament which have become mere forms of "community gathering and self affirmation".
I'm not sure if the Vatican itself supports these new definitions, but the RCC in America and some other countries certainly tries to push these concept's.

Sacraments are both. They are not personal ways for us to receive grace. We receive them in, through, and with the Church as the Body of Christ.

Quote
http://www.Provo.com/religion/content/MARRIAGE_DECLINE__03-20-11_GNM15D3_v99.1AF8060.HTML#
'There was no urgency, except that we were in love,” she recalls. We were thinking we could get married in four or five weeks.”

Michaela, a lifelong Catholic, had been baptized and confirmed, and even had led  classes. Nelson, too, had grown up a devout Catholic. When Michaela called St. Paul's parish in Cr anston to arrange a date, she thought there would be no problem.

She was wrong.

They asked if I was registered in the parish, which I was not. Then they told me we needed to be engaged and be coming to the church for at least six months to a year. I started calling other parishes, and got the same thing. …

I don't think 6 months is too long to wait for someone to make a lifelong commitment. It's better than marrying any two people as soon as they can have the proper paperwork filled out.

Yes.  I figured someone would see through this.

The reason that a couple are expected to be in a parish for six months prior to being married by that pastor is because of the divorce rate, and the grim realization among Catholic clergy, that the a great part of the fault lay at the feet of the Church for not preparing young people for marriage.  You cannot do that in a week or even two weeks.  The other thing that happens, and I know this because I've had to deal with it in a parish, is that the divorce rate is highest among those who were sexually intimate prior to marriage.  Therefore it is very often now a requirement of the couple, before the pastor will even agree to prepare them for marriage, that they separate sexually and live continent lives till the time of the wedding.  For some that is not an impediment once it is explained to them.  For others, it is a deal breaker and they go elsewhere...somewhere secular generally.

Also your point about the sacrament of marriage being both corporate and personal is well taken.

Thanks for your comments!!  All appreciated.

M.

Wow!  That's sure news to me.  Although I understand that the Church disapproves of pre marital sex, regulations like this seem awfully harsh and dictatorial for a couple who are supposed to be entering a committed relationship.  On one hand marriage is seen as a way to contain sexual love and on the other the Church is holding back on allowing people to marry as soon as possible so that they can contain that love in the bonds of matrimony.  I'd just preffer the old way of marrying within a reasonable time after seeing a priest to the new "moratorium" measures.
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2011, 09:35:27 AM »


Yah, I think that transparency is good though, on all ends.  Perhaps if the priest had told them this was the reason for denying their request, things would have gone smoother.  Also, if they offered a Marriage Prep course or something like that, it probably would have been helpful in the situation. 

the overall situation has much deeper issues going on.  very interesting article. 

Be careful of presuming the priest did not tell them.  Experience tells me that there's quite a good chance that he explained it all to them and that part never made it into the article...for some pretty obvious reasons.

I don't think that article pointed to much by way of "deeper" issues.  It is one state, which if you look, has an over-all decrease in new marriages.  I have a cousin there who knows about such things.  It's not just the Catholic Church, it is the whole state which would then reflect in the statistics for the Church.

As Robb notes below...Why wait?    That's part of what got us into the divorce mess but apparently that attitude remains pretty much unchanged among many. 

But the Church retains a faithful remnant that is rather large given the over all figures, so I don't flap too much about these kinds of articles.
Logged

Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2011, 02:12:15 PM »

On one hand marriage is seen as a way to contain sexual love and on the other the Church is holding back on allowing people to marry as soon as possible so that they can contain that love in the bonds of matrimony.

Sex inside of marriage is not legal fornication. Mariage isn't for containing sexual intimacy, the sexual intimacy is a means of sharing and expressing the bond of marriage (in order to properly express the bond of marriage, that marriage must exist).
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2011, 05:32:48 PM »

On one hand marriage is seen as a way to contain sexual love and on the other the Church is holding back on allowing people to marry as soon as possible so that they can contain that love in the bonds of matrimony.

Sex inside of marriage is not legal fornication. Mariage isn't for containing sexual intimacy, the sexual intimacy is a means of sharing and expressing the bond of marriage (in order to properly express the bond of marriage, that marriage must exist).

1 Corinthians 7 (King James Version)

1 Corinthians 7
 1Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

2Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.   3Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

 4The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

 5Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

 6But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.

 7For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

8I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.

 9But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

 10And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

 11But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

 12But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

 13And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

 14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

 15But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

 16For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

 17But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 05:33:44 PM by Robb » Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2011, 10:03:42 PM »

Are you trying to say that the only reason marriage exists is for the purpose of providing an outlet for evil desires of the lust of the flesh to be blessed by God?
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2011, 04:31:28 PM »

If you consider sex to be an "evil desire" then, yes it is one of the reasons (Along with procreation).  The modern concept of "married love" and romantic relationships didn't exist for many centuries and marriage was considered as being mainly about the two things I've mentioned.
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.095 seconds with 42 queries.