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Author Topic: Tridentine Mass v. NO..  (Read 4118 times) Average Rating: 0
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ByzantineSerb
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« on: May 16, 2004, 07:45:09 PM »

For those discussing it in the "Are muslims terrorists" thread. Seems very odd in discussing it there, so, voila (though very interesting).


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« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2004, 08:04:21 PM »

I don't get it either.The Tridentine Mass was *not* forbidden, in fact it can *not* be forbidden.

Well, obviously it is forbidden if the bishop does not permit it to be celebrated. And given all the grexxing about trying to get an indult mass in the USA, one has to suspect that refusal dominates permission.

Certainly in the DC area it is hard to find one.
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« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2004, 08:40:17 PM »

Well, obviously it is forbidden if the bishop does not permit it to be celebrated. And given all the grexxing about trying to get an indult mass in the USA, one has to suspect that refusal dominates permission.

Certainly in the DC area it is hard to find one.


The Tridentine Mass is not forbidden, as I have stated it can not forbidden.

"Furthermore, by these presents [this law], in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us." - QUO PRIMUM Pope St. Pius V - July 14, 1570

No bishop can forbid a priest from celebrating the Tridentine Mass, even John Paul II admitts this:

"Pope John Paul II, in 1986, asked a commission of nine cardinals two questions.  Firstly, did Pope Paul VI, or any other competent authority, legally forbid the widespread celebration of the Tridentine Mass in the present day?  The answer given by eight of the cardinals in 1986 was that, no, the Mass of Saint Pius V has never  beeen suppressed.  I can say this; I was one of the cardinals.There was another question, very interesting.  Can any bishop forbid a priest in good standing from celebrating a Tridentine Mass again? The nine cardinals unanimously agreed that no bishop may forbid a Catholic priest from saying the Tridentine Mass.  We have no official publication and I think that the Pope would never establish an official prohibition ... because of the words of [Pope St.] Pius V, who said this was a Mass forever." - ALFONS CARDINAL STICKLER, Prefect of the Vatican Archives and Library

Now whether or not a priest needs premission from the Bishop to celebrate the Tridentine Mass publically is a whole other issue, and an interesting debate. However, every priest has the right to celebrate the Tridentine Mass, and every priest will forever have this right.

As for the DC area:

St. Mary Mother of God (Old St. Mary) Church
Immaculate Medal Shrine, 727 5th St. N.W., Washington, DC 20001
Fr. David Conway, (202) 289-7770, 289-7771, fax 408-1989
Diocese, Sunday 9 am, 2nd Sundays of the Month 5 pm, Holydays 7:30 pm
http://www.parishes.org/marymothergod.html

St. Francis de Sales
7185 Bendidct Avenue, Bendict, MD 20612-0306
Fr. Saverio T. Vitturino, (301) 274-3416
Diocese, Sunday 11 a.m.
http://www.parishes.org/francisdesalesbenedict.html

St. Alphonsus
114 West Saratoga Street, Baltimore, MD 21201
Fr. Arthur Bastress, (410) 685-6090
Diocese, Sunday 11:30 a.m
http://www.archbalt.org/content.asp?id=299&parishId=2




« Last Edit: May 16, 2004, 09:03:55 PM by Ben » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2004, 09:11:40 PM »

Though I don't like the Free fer All I thought a quick quip would be alright.

Check out www.fssp.com

The statement from JPII regarding the Traditional Liturgy is there also.

Yes there are very few locations which is sad.

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« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2004, 01:58:23 PM »

Now whether or not a priest needs premission from the Bishop to celebrate the Tridentine Mass publically is a whole other issue, and an interesting debate.

Well, it's not really a different issue, because after all, none of us are priests, and therefore availability of the Tridentine Rite is utterly dependent upon these public celebrations.

At any rate, I've looked at the archdiocesan websites. Washington has 120 parishes; Baltimore has 155. There is one parish in Baltimore listed has having Tridentine masses, and three in Washington (maybe-- it's unclear whether one of them is really there). St. Alphonsus is roughly 45 minutes from my house; Old St. Mary's is a hour from my house; and St. Francis de Sales is an hour and twenty minutes away. (The one in Silver Spring, if it's really there, is not too far-- probably about half an hour.) The three parishes you name constitute about 1% of the parishes in the two archdioceses.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2004, 02:37:27 PM by Keble » Logged
Brendan03
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« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2004, 02:34:52 PM »

And there are Zippo, nada Latin Masses allowed in the Archconservative Diocese of Arlington across the river in Northern Virginia (other than the SSPX chapel on Route 7!).
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« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2004, 02:55:58 PM »

And there are Zippo, nada Latin Masses allowed in the Archconservative Diocese of Arlington across the river in Northern Virginia (other than the SSPX chapel on Route 7!).

Don't use the word allowed, because it is misleading. The proper word and more accurate would be " not availble" and it is because they don't have priests to do them.
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« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2004, 03:07:52 PM »

Don't use the word allowed, because it is misleading. The proper word and more accurate would be " not availble" and it is because they don't have priests to do them.

Like I really believe that the Bishop in Arlington has no say over whether or not Latin Masses are to be served in public in his diocese!   Wink

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« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2004, 03:13:14 PM »

Quote
The proper word and more accurate would be " not availble" and it is because they don't have priests to do them.

Um, no.  There are plenty of priests in the archdiocese of Arlington to celebrate the Latin Mass, but the bishop won't allow it.  I think peope who live in the area have more of a grasp on the situation than you do.

For anyone who is interested in the Latin MAss in the DC Metro area, I would highly suggest St. Alphonsus in Baltimore.  Monsignor Bastress is a wonderful priest and the schola there is quite good, at least to my ears.

The pews are TINY though and my 6'5" frame does not fit well in them at all!
« Last Edit: May 17, 2004, 03:15:14 PM by Schultz » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2004, 03:18:01 PM »

Like I really believe that the Bishop in Arlington has no say over whether or not Latin Masses are to be served in public in his diocese!   Wink



Listen Brandon

Perhaps you don't know how things work in the CC. The pope has asked the bishops to provide the TradiMA generously to the faithful. Now, if the bishops don't have the priest necessary within their jurisdiction, how in the world are they going to provide the mass.

The church in the USA no longer has priests that know the rubric for the old mass. Most of the ones that they have are very old.

Nowhere in what I wrote gave you the impression that the bishops didn't have a say. Did I?  Smiley

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« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2004, 03:20:21 PM »

Um, no.  There are plenty of priests in the archdiocese of Arlington to celebrate the Latin Mass, but the bishop won't allow it.  I think peope who live in the area have more of a grasp on the situation than you do.

For anyone who is interested in the Latin MAss in the DC Metro area, I would highly suggest St. Alphonsus in Baltimore.  Monsignor Bastress is a wonderful priest and the schola there is quite good, at least to my ears.

The pews are TINY though and my 6'5" frame does not fit well in them at all!

excuse me but I am very involved in what diocese offers the TradMASS and which doesn't.

Ben has provided those that offered it. and it is offered.

As for the DC area:

St. Mary Mother of God (Old St. Mary) Church
Immaculate Medal Shrine, 727 5th St. N.W., Washington, DC 20001
Fr. David Conway, (202) 289-7770, 289-7771, fax 408-1989
Diocese, Sunday 9 am, 2nd Sundays of the Month 5 pm, Holydays 7:30 pm
http://www.parishes.org/marymothergod.html

St. Francis de Sales
7185 Bendidct Avenue, Bendict, MD 20612-0306
Fr. Saverio T. Vitturino, (301) 274-3416
Diocese, Sunday 11 a.m.
www.parishes.org/francisdesale...esbenedict.html

St. Alphonsus
114 West Saratoga Street, Baltimore, MD 21201
Fr. Arthur Bastress, (410) 685-6090
Diocese, Sunday 11:30 a.m
www.archbalt.org/content.asp?i...&parishId=2
« Last Edit: May 17, 2004, 03:21:55 PM by romanbyzantium » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2004, 03:38:57 PM »

Listen Brandon

Perhaps you don't know how things work in the CC. The pope has asked the bishops to provide the TradiMA generously to the faithful. Now, if the bishops don't have the priest necessary within their jurisdiction, how in the world are they going to provide the mass.

The church in the USA no longer has priests that know the rubric for the old mass. Most of the ones that they have are very old.

Nowhere in what I wrote gave you the impression that the bishops didn't have a say. Did I?  Smiley



Listen to me, RB.

First, it's Brendan, not Brandon.  Brendan is a common European name in Ireland.  A European like youself should be familiar with it.  Please use it.

I have lived in the Diocese of Arlington for almost 10 years now, 6 of those as a Roman Catholic, and a very well informed one, a CCD instructor and the like.  I am fully aware of the words that exist on various pieces of paper that the Catholic Church pushes around from time to time.  However, what is more interesting to me than what is written on these pieces of paper is the reality on the ground, as it were, and that reality in Arlington is that the Latin Mass is verboten in Arlington because the Bishop will not allow it to be publically celebrated in Arlington.  Everyone here knows that, even the priests will tell you that if you ask them, it is not an issue that there are no priests available or willing to do it.  The issue is that the Bishop does not wish it because Arlington is a bell-weather conservative diocese in the USA and there is a lack of interest in "bleeding out" some of the conservatives from the rank-and-file parishes into one or more TLM-oriented communities.

Brendan
« Last Edit: May 17, 2004, 03:41:00 PM by Brendan03 » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2004, 04:02:08 PM »

Quote
excuse me but I am very involved in what diocese offers the TradMASS and which doesn't.

All of those churches you provided are not in the Arlington Archdiocese, but the neighboring Archdioceses of Washington and Baltimore.  Please try to keep up.  We're just talking about Arlington.   Everything Brendan is saying regarding that diocese is quite true and easily discovered by anyone with half a brain and a cursory examination of the Arlington Catholic Herald over the past few years.

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« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2004, 04:18:50 PM »

All of those churches you provided are not in the Arlington Archdiocese, but the neighboring Archdioceses of Washington and Baltimore.  Please try to keep up.  We're just talking about Arlington.   Everything Brendan is saying regarding that diocese is quite true and easily discovered by anyone with half a brain and a cursory examination of the Arlington Catholic Herald over the past few years.



anyone with half a brain like you said would have noticed that I said that the mass is available but it is not offered in all churches and this is different than not being allowed. The Tradmass can't never be prohibited. Now, if the bishop decides not to offer it then than is his decision. A bishop supreme in his dioceses.

lets use appropriate terminology here. We don't want to confuse the issue.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2004, 04:19:28 PM by romanbyzantium » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2004, 04:28:58 PM »

"Deciding to not offer" sure sounds like an equivalent to not allowing.  In both cases there is no service to attend.

Ebor (Who has no attachment to the Latin Mass per se, since I'm used to Anglican Masses in English, but has sung Mass parts in Latin)
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« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2004, 04:39:59 PM »

"Deciding to not offer" sure sounds like an equivalent to not allowing.  In both cases there is no service to attend.

Ebor (Who has no attachment to the Latin Mass per se, since I'm used to Anglican Masses in English, but has sung Mass parts in Latin)

No bishop can't prohibid the latinmass.
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« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2004, 04:53:17 PM »

He can prohibit it being said in HIS diocese by not giving permission.

A priest must ask his bishop for permission.  I personally know two priests in Arlington who have all but begged their bishop for permission and they are denied each time they ask.

That sounds like prohibiting its use to me.
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« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2004, 04:56:12 PM »

I read about a RC priest here in Ft. Worth suspended from liturgical activity in his parish for "hijacking," as it were, the Sunday morning Mass and going tridentine against his bishop's wishes.  Shocked

Not that I'm blaming the bishop for his actions...far from it...but the priest felt as though he were left with no other choice and had to act on his convictions (which were apparently shared by a good part of the parish).
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« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2004, 04:57:39 PM »

anyone with half a brain like you said would have noticed that I said that the mass is available but it is not offered in all churches and this is different than not being allowed. The Tradmass can't never be prohibited. Now, if the bishop decides not to offer it then than is his decision. A bishop supreme in his dioceses.

lets use appropriate terminology here. We don't want to confuse the issue.
RB,

You just said that the Tradmass can't be prohibited, but that the bishop doesn't "offer it" in his diocese.  In effect, by not "offering" the Tridentine mass, it is for all practical purposes PROHIBITED.  As an example, if I have a restaurant which doesn't offer alcohol, I would effectively be prohibiting it, as the liquor laws in my state don't allow for people to bring their own in.
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« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2004, 05:02:05 PM »

Perhaps you don't know how things work in the CC. The pope has asked the bishops to provide the TradiMA generously to the faithful. Now, if the bishops don't have the priest necessary within their jurisdiction, how in the world are they going to provide the mass.

The church in the USA no longer has priests that know the rubric for the old mass. Most of the ones that they have are very old.

Well, I know the priest at St. Anne's Tenley Circle, because I've sung there. In Latin. They do the occaisional service in Latin, but they do not offer an indult mass. This fellow is not all that old-- maybe a little older than I am.

One of the issues with episcopal polity is that if nobody disciplines the bishops, they become tyrants. That is a big part of the problem in the Episcopal Church, and everything I read says that the American RC church has all of the same problems. If bishops do not allow indult masses, and nobody disciplines them for it, then the Tridentine mass is effectively prohibited in their dioceses. What more needs to be said?
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« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2004, 05:03:43 PM »

Quote
The church in the USA no longer has priests that know the rubric for the old mass.

I'm assuming that priests can read and follow the rubrics in the Missal.

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« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2004, 06:28:42 PM »

This conversation is hanging quite literally on a semantical trick.  A rose by any other name is still a rose.  When it is not permitted, it is the same in substance as prohibiting it for the laypeople of that diocese.  To deny this reality and hide behind a semantical trick is to follow form over substance.  The substance is that it is de facto forbidden to be said publicly in Arlington because the Bishop refuses to offer it.

I agree with Keble that it is political.  However, here I think Rome is aware of what is happening and is supportive.  Arlington is really conservative, it is one of 2 or 3 dioceses in the entire country that does not permit young women to serve as altar servers.  The desire is to keep it that way, and the policy is to discourage conservatives in the parishes from defecting from their local parish to an omnibus "traditional" parish that draws people from the entire diocese, because by doing that you are diluting the local parishes of some of their traditional base.  So the answer is to not offer the indult Latin Mass.  It doesn't stop a small but significant number of conservative RCs from joining the local Eastern Catholic parishes here, which are rather bustling as a result of this policy, but theres nothing the RC Bishop can do about that because it is not within his jurisdiction.

Brendan
« Last Edit: May 17, 2004, 06:31:49 PM by Brendan03 » Logged

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