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Author Topic: ROCOR and Russian Orthodox Church  (Read 10143 times) Average Rating: 0
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romanbyzantium
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« on: May 16, 2004, 02:48:33 PM »

Why are these 2 churches enemies? How did ROCOR came into existence? I heard that they came into existence because of the persecution of the church in russia and because the clergy was full of KGB agents and the church became a tool of the state.
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« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2004, 02:52:12 PM »

I think that recent new material published on this forum shows that they are not enemies at all. Perhaps representatives of both communities sometimes make it look like that but from what I have heard from my ROCOR friends there is no hatred on their part at all.

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« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2004, 03:12:15 PM »

I think that recent new material published on this forum shows that they are not enemies at all. Perhaps representatives of both communities sometimes make it look like that but from what I have heard from my ROCOR friends there is no hatred on their part at all.

Peter

Is what I wrote the truth on why ROCOR was created?
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« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2004, 03:16:57 PM »

Not really. I am sure that someone from ROCOR can post a pointer to a good description of the historic origins of ROCOR.

It is true that the events of the Revolution in Russia were the cause but I also think you should beware of too partisan an account against ROCOR. Look for a more neutral one.

Google ROCOR and history and see what comes up.
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« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2004, 03:17:35 PM »

The ROCOR and the OCA are BOTH spiritual children of the Moscow Patriarchate.  The Bolshevik Revolution and resulting Communist persecution of the Orthodox Church in Russia after 1917 fragmented Russian Orthodoxy and that still affects us to this day.  What is today the OCA was in 1917 the North American Diocese of the Russian Orthodox Church.  After the Communist Revolution in Russia, Patriarch Tikhon (who had been Bishop of the North American diocese and had a very close connection with the Orthodox in America) told the North American Diocese to "believe NOTHING from Moscow until the Church in Russia is free."  Then the Communists murdered Patriarch Tikhon and installed a puppet bishop in his place who demanded that the Orthodox in America take an oath of allegience to the atheistic Soviet gov't!  The North American diocese snorted at such a notion, and at the Cleveland Sobor declared itself as "temporarily self-governing" until the matter could be settled.
     Our dear ROCOR brethren have a different origin.  They were mostly Russians from Russia who fled to the West when the Communists began killing off all the Orthodox bishops and priests. They included Metropolitan Anthony Krapovitsky, the Bishop of Kiev.  After fleeing to Constantinople, the ROCOR people eventually found refuge in Serbia, where they re-constituted themselves with a Holy Synod of Bishops at Karlovsky. From there, ROCOR moved to Germany for a while, and then finally to Jordanville, New York, where Holy Trinity Monastery and Seminary is located.
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« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2004, 03:22:12 PM »

Hi

Why are ROCOR and the OCA not in close communion then?

Thanks

Peter
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« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2004, 03:26:46 PM »

Should be noted too that Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky, before his emmigration, was amongst the top 3 bishops being considered for Patriarch of Russia, alongside Tikhon.
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« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2004, 03:29:16 PM »

Hi

Why are ROCOR and the OCA not in close communion then?

Thanks

Peter

Because the OCA formerly submitted themselves to the ROCOR Synod, but broke away in the 1950s. At this point ROCOR considered them to have made an error, and possibly to have gone into schism. In 1970, after having no real canonical basis for their position of "going solo", they gained autocephaly from the Moscow Patriarchate. ROCOR, considering the Russian Church in Russia to be enslaved, did not accept this act as being canonical.
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« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2004, 03:30:25 PM »

The ROCOR and the OCA are BOTH spiritual children of the Moscow Patriarchate.  The Bolshevik Revolution and resulting Communist persecution of the Orthodox Church in Russia after 1917 fragmented Russian Orthodoxy and that still affects us to this day.  What is today the OCA was in 1917 the North American Diocese of the Russian Orthodox Church.  After the Communist Revolution in Russia, Patriarch Tikhon (who had been Bishop of the North American diocese and had a very close connection with the Orthodox in America) told the North American Diocese to "believe NOTHING from Moscow until the Church in Russia is free."  Then the Communists murdered Patriarch Tikhon and installed a puppet bishop in his place who demanded that the Orthodox in America take an oath of allegience to the atheistic Soviet gov't!  The North American diocese snorted at such a notion, and at the Cleveland Sobor declared itself as "temporarily self-governing" until the matter could be settled.
     Our dear ROCOR brethren have a different origin.  They were mostly Russians from Russia who fled to the West when the Communists began killing off all the Orthodox bishops and priests. They included Metropolitan Anthony Krapovitsky, the Bishop of Kiev.  After fleeing to Constantinople, the ROCOR people eventually found refuge in Serbia, where they re-constituted themselves with a Holy Synod of Bishops at Karlovsky. From there, ROCOR moved to Germany for a while, and then finally to Jordanville, New York, where Holy Trinity Monastery and Seminary is located.


I thought that OCA were Byzatine catholics that were approached by the russian orthodox church to convert to orthodoxy after the debacle over married priests in america controversy?
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« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2004, 03:32:29 PM »

Because the OCA formerly submitted themselves to the ROCOR Synod, but broke away in the 1950s. At this point ROCOR considered them to have made an error, and possibly to have gone into schism. In 1970, after having no real canonical basis for their position of "going solo", they gained autocephaly from the Moscow Patriarchate. ROCOR, considering the Russian Church in Russia to be enslaved, did not accept this act as being canonical.

How do you know that the russian church is still not enslaved to the state? what about all those KGB opperatives that became priests/bishops and most likely still there?
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« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2004, 03:33:37 PM »

I thought that OCA were Byzatine catholics that were approached by the russian orthodox church to convert to orthodoxy after the debacle over married priests in america controversy?

That's partly true. A good number of the OCA's present cradle members are descendents of Greek Catholics who converted by the example of St. Alexis Toth. This conversion was partly based on the fact that the Roman Church in America did not, for the most part, support the Eastern Rite or married clergy. Call me an optimist, but I also like to think that the conversions were a result of finding the Truth of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2004, 03:33:51 PM »

But was there any issue of heresy or merely a matter of administration?
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« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2004, 03:36:57 PM »

How do you know that the russian church is still not enslaved to the state? what about all those KGB opperatives that became priests/bishops and most likely still there?

The Soviet government has ceased to exist. The Russian Church is no longer in "close and active collaboration"(as older ROCOR documents say) with an atheistic government, because an atheistic government has ceased to exist. There is no godless regime which a bishop can submit to anymore. So whether or not they submitted(for whatever reason) in the past, is basically moot question at this point. The question that still has merit is: Does the Russian hierarchy today believe that submitting to atheistic authorities is ok? This question is presently being sorted out in Russia this very week.
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« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2004, 03:40:25 PM »

But was there any issue of heresy or merely a matter of administration?

Depends on who you ask, I suppose. I can't find any kind of ROCOR statement which says the OCA fell into heresy, per se. However, I can find statements which say the autocephaly is not recognized by ROCOR, due to canonical infractions. Keep in mind, at the same time ROCOR was declaring the autocephaly uncanonical, the Ecumenical Patriarch and virtually ever other autocephalous Church was saying something similar. The autocephaly is to this day not formally recognized by the Ecumenical Patriarch, and the Serbian Patriarchate, I believe. However, these synods who do not recognize the autocephaly do not believe the OCA is heretical. As far as I understand it, the ROCOR holds a similar opinion.
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« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2004, 03:43:37 PM »

Depends on who you ask, I suppose. I can't find any kind of ROCOR statement which says the OCA fell into heresy, per se. However, I can find statements which say the autocephaly is not recognized by ROCOR, due to canonical infractions. Keep in mind, at the same time ROCOR was declaring the autocephaly uncanonical, the Ecumenical Patriarch and virtually ever other autocephalous Church was saying something similar. The autocephaly is to this day not formally recognized by the Ecumenical Patriarch, and the Serbian Patriarchate, I believe. However, these synods who do not recognize the autocephaly do not believe the OCA is heretical. As far as I understand it, the ROCOR holds a similar opinion.

Being recognize or not as an independent church or declaring their independence doesn't negate their status as orthodox? or does it?

This is so confusing.  It is so chaotic.
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« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2004, 03:44:35 PM »

But is such an administrative controversy sufficient to support what seems to me as an ignorant but interested observer to be excommunication? Should not excommunication have some doctrinal basis? This is what I personally find rather shocking about the use of excommunication by the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew. Or am I just being naive?
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« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2004, 03:46:22 PM »

How do you know that the russian church is still not enslaved to the state? what about all those KGB opperatives that became priests/bishops and most likely still there?

RB,

The situation of the Roman Catholic Church in China, where you have an 'official' church under the control of the Communist government and the 'underground' church which seeks to maintain the faith free of this control might offer you a useful historical parallel.

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« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2004, 03:51:24 PM »

Quote
Because the OCA formerly submitted themselves to the ROCOR Synod, but broke away in the 1950s.

Does anyone know why the OCA broke away?
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« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2004, 03:56:13 PM »

RB,

The situation of the Roman Catholic Church in China, where you have an 'official' church under the control of the Communist government and the 'underground' church which seeks to maintain the faith free of this control might offer you a useful historical parallel.

Brigid

Not really a good parallel, for the reason that the Roman Catholic Church in China, that submitted to the Government and ordained bishops without Rome's approval, was excomunicated and declared schismatic by Rome many years ago. In Orthodoxy you have no Pope to decide when the MP submitted to the godless Communist government and when it lost the faith, if it ever did. It is really left up to the opinion of the individual, thats why you have groups like ROAC out there.
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« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2004, 04:09:06 PM »

But is such an administrative controversy sufficient to support what seems to me as an ignorant but interested observer to be excommunication? Should not excommunication have some doctrinal basis? This is what I personally find rather shocking about the use of excommunication by the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew. Or am I just being naive?

It's not excommunication, but a break in relations due to a serious difference in outlook. ROCOR basically believed in the 1950's that the OCA had gone into schism from them. If that was their contention, then why would anyone expect normal relations to follow?
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« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2004, 04:12:59 PM »

But do ROCOR priests and OCA priests concelebrate. If not then how is that not excommunication?
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« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2004, 04:16:12 PM »

Does anyone know why the OCA broke away?

From the OCA's webpage:
http://www.oca.org/pages/ocaadmin/documents/All-American-Council/historyindex.html#s7
The main task of the Sixth Sobor, held in New York on October 5-8, 1937, was to assess the initiatives undertaken by Metropolitan THEOPHILUS since the last council. In an effort toward jurisdictional unity, Bishop ADAM (Philipovsky) and his Carpatho-Russian Diocese had been accepted into the Metropolia. Moreover, Metropolitan THEOPHILUS had traveled to Serbia where, under the leadership of the Serbian Patriarch, an agreement was signed by the leading hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR) along with other exiled Russian hierarchs throughout the world forging a peaceful coexistence. Under this agreement, the American Church was to retain her administrative autonomy while maintaining close relations with the ROCOR Synod and being accountable to it only in matters of faith. The parallel jurisdictions of the Metropolia and ROCOR were thus eliminated and the four ROCOR hierarchs in North America along with their clergy and parishes were integrated into the Metropolia.


And then:

World War II prevented convocation of the Seventh Sobor until 1946. Various circumstances brought on by the war had greatly changed the Orthodox situation throughout the world. Therefore the Seventh Sobor, convened in Cleveland on November 26-29, 1946, determined that the "temporary arrangement" with the ROCOR agreed to in 1935 was no longer in effect. In 1943 and 1945, Patriarchs SERGIUS (Stragorodsky) and ALEKSY I (Simansky) had successively been elected in Moscow. The North American Metropolia had been invited to send a delegation to the Moscow Council of 1945. This was perceived as a sign that the hopes of the Detroit Council of 1924 could be fulfilled and full relations could be resumed with the Moscow Patriarchate. The Seventh Sobor therefore resolved to petition Patriarch ALEKSY I of Moscow to accept the North American Metropolia under his spiritual leadership while maintaining her full autonomous status. Subsequent negotiations between the Metropolia and the Patriarchate brought no consensus and the Metropolia continued her life as defined by the Fourth Sobor, estranged from the Church of Russia for another quarter of a century.



Doesn't seem to me like they give a reason. At least it seems the case in their short presentation of the all-american councils.
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« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2004, 04:19:52 PM »

And the "split" from ROCOR's perspective, by Fr. Alexander Lebedeff.



Unfortunately, not all the 37 bishops that made up the ROCOR in 1920 remained loyal to its authority. Metropolitan Platon, who had been put in charge of the Russian Orthodox Churches in the US declared "independence" from the ROCOR in 1924 and his followers became self-governing from that time. This was the origin of what is now known as the OCA. Other parishes remained loyal to the ROCOR. In 1934, the Patriarch of Serbia called Metropolitan Theophilus (who had succeeded Metropolitan Platon) to a conference in Belgrade, and unity was restored with the ROCOR, with the American Orthodox parishes operating under a significant degree of autonomy as the American Metropolia.

The end of WWII brought more upheaval. Many in the US thought that Stalin was a "good guy"—an ally, "Uncle Joe," if you will. There was a lot of propaganda that the persecution of the Church in Stalin's Russia had ceased. At an All-American Council of the Metropolia in Cleveland in 1946, the majority of the delegates voted to recognize the Moscow Patriarch as their spiritual head and break with the ROCOR. The bishops loyal to the ROCOR walked out and a split again ensued. The Moscow Patriarchate wanted much more control of the American Church than the Church was willing to give, and so the American Metropolia went its own way, neither under Moscow, nor the ROCOR until 1970, when it negotiated and received "autocephaly" (official recognition of self-rule) from the Moscow Patriarchate.

For full article:
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/amer_jur.aspx
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« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2004, 06:00:50 PM »

Bogo:
 Thanks for your concise and accurate description of these events.  You have made things much more understandable for me. Smiley  

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« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2004, 06:26:52 PM »

[That's partly true. A good number of the OCA's present cradle members are descendents of Greek Catholics who converted by the example of St. Alexis Toth. This conversion was partly based on the fact that the Roman Church in America did not, for the most part, support the Eastern Rite or married clergy. Call me an optimist, but I also like to think that the conversions were a result of finding the Truth of Orthodoxy. ]

Think of it more as a return to what they were originally but whose ancestors were forced to abandon because of politics, pressure, cohesion, and being taken over by hostile forces.

Orthodoc
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« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2004, 06:30:33 PM »

[The situation of the Roman Catholic Church in China, where you have an 'official' church under the control of the Communist government and the 'underground' church which seeks to maintain the faith free of this control might offer you a useful historical parallel.]

Not to mention the RCC in South America during the same time period or the RCC in Croatia during Natzi period.

Orthodoc

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« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2004, 06:45:25 PM »

[That's partly true. A good number of the OCA's present cradle members are descendents of Greek Catholics who converted by the example of St. Alexis Toth. This conversion was partly based on the fact that the Roman Church in America did not, for the most part, support the Eastern Rite or married clergy. Call me an optimist, but I also like to think that the conversions were a result of finding the Truth of Orthodoxy. ]

Think of it more as a return to what they were originally but whose ancestors were forced to abandon because of politics, pressure, cohesion, and being taken over by hostile forces.

Orthodoc

Stop making stories up. tell the true stories that russia was oppressing them. don't whitewash the issue. No one forces anyone.

Don't hijack the thread with your negativity. we were having an interesting conversation.
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« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2004, 07:07:57 PM »

Orthodoc, often you like to bring times when Orthodox Christians were persecuted and mistreated by the Catholic Church or Catholic governments. Now, there is a heck of a lot of truth to what you say, but my God it gets quite annoying when thats all you focuss on. Eastern rite and Roman Catholics and Non-Chalcedonians have also been mistreated and persecuted by the Orthodox Church, Orthodox governments, and Orthodox individuals, I think Bishop Ware does a good job of showing that in his book "The Orthodox Church".
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« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2004, 07:11:05 PM »

Orthodoc, often you like to bring times when Orthodox Christians were persecuted and mistreated by the Catholic Church or Catholic governments. Now, there is a heck of a lot of truth to what you say, but my God it gets quite annoying when thats all you focuss on. Eastern rite and Roman Catholics have also been mistreated by the Orthodox Church, Orthodox governments, and Orthodox individuals, I think Bishop Ware does a good job of showing that in his book "The Orthodox Church".

He keeps forgeting that. I have given him dates and incidents of orthodox persecution of catholics even decades before the sack of constantinople occurred, his favorite example.

The orthodox church started persecuting catholics first with the help of the Greek Byzantine Emperors. but he forgets this.
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« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2004, 08:09:23 PM »

Thank you for the explanation, Bogoliubsty.   Like you, I couldn't find a reason actually stated on the OCA site.  Looks like a matter of politics and circumstances.

It is my understanding that the OCA is in full communion with the other Orthodox jurisdictions, even though the EP does not recognize its autonomy (or autocephalous status?).  I suppose it may take a while, but surely it can be resolved.  If full communion is restored between Moscow and the ROCOR, I wonder what that will mean in terms of the EP's opinion.  I have read somewhere, a few months ago, that under canon law the American continents are supposed to be under the EP's jurisdiction.  Is that true?
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« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2004, 09:33:54 PM »

[The orthodox church started persecuting catholics first with the help of the Greek Byzantine Emperors. but he forgets this.]

I'll match persecutions with you anytime and we'll see who started it and when it started.

Orthodoc
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« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2004, 09:35:46 PM »

[The orthodox church started persecuting catholics first with the help of the Greek Byzantine Emperors. but he forgets this.]

I'll match persecutions with you anytime and we'll see who started it and when it started.

Orthodoc

Go right ahead. lets see how clean your church is.
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« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2004, 09:38:05 PM »

[The orthodox church started persecuting catholics first with the help of the Greek Byzantine Emperors. but he forgets this.]

I'll match persecutions with you anytime and we'll see who started it and when it started.

Orthodoc

Wow, how christian, having a contest and all of who persecuted who the most. My God what is wrong with you Orthodoc? No offense, by jezz, both sides have commited horrible attrocities, can't we leave it at that?
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« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2004, 09:39:32 PM »

Wow, how christian, having a contest and all of who persecuted who the most. My God what is wrong with you Orthodoc? No offense, by jezz, both sides have commited horrible attrocities, can't we leave it at that?

No.. let him. I will show him his history.
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« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2004, 09:42:33 PM »

You two need some serious help!
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« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2004, 09:42:37 PM »

[Stop making stories up. tell the true stories that russia was oppressing them. don't whitewash the issue. No one forces anyone.

Don't hijack the thread with your negativity. we were having an interesting conversation.]

Stop commenting on historical facts you know nothing about as the above reply in your first sentence indicates.

When you read a historical novel, read the entire book from chapter one page one to end end before commenting.  Otherwise you won't appear to be so naive and uneducated  when you reply to subjects you know nothing about.

Orthodoc
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« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2004, 09:50:24 PM »

Orthodoc,

Members of the Catholic Church have done horrible things, as have members of the Orthodox Church. Both have blood on their hands, can't we leave it at that?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2004, 09:52:27 PM by Ben » Logged

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Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2004, 10:03:54 PM »

Orthodoc,

[Members of the Catholic Church have done horrible things, as have members of the Orthodox Church. Both have blood on their hands, can't we leave it at that?]

I'm more than willing to leave it at that if and when this guy stops trolling.

Orthodoc

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And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
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« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2004, 10:14:22 PM »

[Stop making stories up. tell the true stories that russia was oppressing them. don't whitewash the issue. No one forces anyone.

Don't hijack the thread with your negativity. we were having an interesting conversation.]

Stop commenting on historical facts you know nothing about as the above reply in your first sentence indicates.

When you read a historical novel, read the entire book from chapter one page one to end end before commenting.  Otherwise you won't appear to be so naive and uneducated  when you reply to subjects you know nothing about.

Orthodoc
(Whose grandparents were amongst the group being discussed)


Keep whitewashing. I will serve to unmask you.
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« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2004, 10:23:47 PM »

Orthodoc,

[Members of the Catholic Church have done horrible things, as have members of the Orthodox Church. Both have blood on their hands, can't we leave it at that?]

I'm more than willing to leave it at that if and when this guy stops trolling.

Orthodoc



You mean that I should stop telling the true, exposing your fiction and unearthing the facts you would like to keep buried.

see orthodoc you are the type of person that one needs to avoid. Thank God that you don't represent orthodoxy.

I could give you some history books so that you could educate yourself a bit..perhaps then you would not be so selective on dates and incidents in an attempt to whitewash someone historical past.

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« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2004, 10:25:17 PM »

Orthodoc,

Members of the Catholic Church have done horrible things, as have members of the Orthodox Church. Both have blood on their hands, can't we leave it at that?

Ben,

we all know this but orthodoc lives in another dimension where the orthodox church and her people have never done anything to anyone else. In his dimension they have always been peace loving people.
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« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2004, 10:31:02 PM »

Um, will you two please take it to private message or something?  I'd like to get a simple question or two answered.
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« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2004, 10:35:47 PM »

Um, will you two please take it to private message or something?  I'd like to get a simple question or two answered.  

I agree.

That is what we have been trying to do all along...then orthodoc came in with his usual MANTRA.
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Orthodoc
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Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2004, 10:40:10 PM »

[I could give you some history books so that you could educate yourself a bit..perhaps then you would not be so selective on dates and incidents in an attempt to whitewash someone historical past.]

Now who is trying to white wash whom?


[You mean that I should stop telling the true, exposing your fiction and unearthing the facts you would like to keep buried.]

Until you start giving dates, times, and refrences it is all nothing more than fiction on your part.  You constantly make trollings staements with nothing to back it up.  Here's an example -

[the mass killing of croats by serbs and surrounding area populated by catholics]

How about backing up that staement with facts and references my trolling friend?  When did this happen?  If you read history you will find it was the exact opposite that happened.

[Keep whitewashing. I will serve to unmask you.]

HUH!  What's that supposed to be?  Some type of threat?


=================

[Posted by: countrymouse  Posted on: Today at 10:31:02 PM  
Um, will you two please take it to private message or something?  I'd like to get a simple question or two answered. ]

You are absolutely right countrymouse.  

romanbyzantium ...you want to continue this send me private emails like you did asking why i don't like you.  I will concede to others wishes and not repons publically regarding this thread.

Orthodoc  

=======



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« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2004, 11:29:00 PM »

Thanks, guys; I appreciate it.  Smiley
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