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Poll
Question: Which do you believe are legitimate obstacles to reunion?
Papal Infallibility - 76 (11.1%)
Papal Supremacy/Universal Jurisdiction - 75 (10.9%)
Filioque Clause - 53 (7.7%)
Proselytism (of other side) - 16 (2.3%)
Clerical Celibacy - 29 (4.2%)
Leavened/Unleavened Bread - 19 (2.8%)
Dating of Pascha - 21 (3.1%)
Purgatory (as doctrine) - 52 (7.6%)
Immaculate Conception (as doctrine) - 58 (8.4%)
Divorce (stances on) - 31 (4.5%)
The Epiclesis (or lack of) - 12 (1.7%)
Thomistic Theology (Aquinas) - 37 (5.4%)
Hesychasm - 11 (1.6%)
Merit and Satisfaction soteriology - 40 (5.8%)
Transubstantiation - 23 (3.3%)
Assumption of Mary (as doctrine) - 28 (4.1%)
Merit/Satisfaction Soteriology - 32 (4.7%)
Philosophy & Scholasticism (as opposed to Empirical Theology) - 27 (3.9%)
Original Sin (vs. Ancestral Sin) - 47 (6.8%)
Total Voters: 80

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Author Topic: Orthodox-Catholic Obstacles to Reunion? (A Poll)  (Read 7888 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: March 27, 2011, 03:58:46 PM »

To be honest with you, I do not know precisely.
That's all you had to say, but let's examine how full of yourself you are.

Quote
One is that many Catholics are what I call pass-through Catholics.  They come from protestant backgrounds;
And? Many converts into Orthodoxy are former Protestants.

[quotethey are poorly catechized in many respects;[/quote]
Compare the catechism to Orthodoxy, and RC is MUCH better with their catechism.

Quote
they are let down by what they perceive as a lack of spiritual life in parishes;
And the fact that this could be true?

Quote
they are scandalized by the venality that they discover in the clergy,
Who wouldn't be?

Quote
the loss of solemnity in the mass and in the vocational life;
More of that "doctrinal development", gotta love RC apostasy.

Quote
they are oppressed by bad liturgical practice and to them the smaller more reverential, more sensually beautiful rites and rituals are too much of a draw to be resisted, and they've never really absorbed the full teaching of the Catholic Church in a way that is sufficient to help them overcome some of the negatives so there's nothing holding them really.
That's a bold claim, and in fact a terrible generalized assertion. I've abosrbed much of the Catholic theology and came to the conclusion that it will crumble evntually with the progression of the post modern movement. Once you elimiate the mystery of certain theologies, it's only a matter of time when scrutiny will dismantle it's logicality.

The biggest problem with the RCC is it's multiplicity of theologies under one insitituion, versus Orthodoxy which is oneness in the same faith but a multiplicity in it's jurisdictions (Greek, Serbian, Antiochian, etc), I'm glad Orthodoxy holds true to the One of the four marks of the Church.

Quote
I understand these people and I know that the Catholic Church has failed them in many ways and they have made a good choice by moving through the Catholic Church into Orthodoxy.
Catholic Church has failed quite a number of people for centuries, it's nothing new.

Quote
At any rate, I came very very close to moving into Orthodoxy but I have to tell you I could never do what some of you folks do with respect to the Catholic Church.  It just would not be happening.  So I am where I started and that's fine.  I am sorry there is not communion, because I'd be with you in a heart beat.  

Pride > Truth. Good to see where you stand.

The sad fact that you would of embraced Orthodoxy but stuck to your pride, speaks volumes about your character. I don't know why people like Fr. Ambrose or Isa bother to debate with you
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 04:00:13 PM by Aposphet » Logged

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« Reply #91 on: March 27, 2011, 04:06:04 PM »

[quote author=Aposphet link=topic=34550.msg548493#msg548493 date=1301255926

The sad fact that you would of embraced Orthodoxy but stuck to your pride, speaks volumes about your character. I don't know why people like Fr. Ambrose or Isa bother to debate with you
[/quote]

 laugh laugh laugh

Took you all this time to get an answer together and this is the BEST you could do?
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« Reply #92 on: March 27, 2011, 04:08:34 PM »

Not really, I don't put effort into talking with trolls.
 For this post which is only indicative of your continued obtuseness in learning how to interact with posters with whom you disagree without resorting to personal comments, you are being put on Post Moderation for 20 days.  If you think this is in error, please PM Fr. George or FrChris.  -Schultz.
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« Reply #93 on: March 27, 2011, 04:19:34 PM »

Unfortunately, instead of clarifying, your last post just made things even more bizarre.

The thing about that Council was, he really didn't settle the discussion. As St. Peter was the one in the wrong, whereas St. Paul was the one upholding orthodoxy, as St. Peter had fallen to the heresy of Judaizing. Thankfully after the council, St. Paul repented and returned to Orthodoxy.

We're really getting off on a tangent now, but I'm quite puzzled by your last sentence, so I have to ask:
1. At what point after the Council of Jerusalem did St. Paul "repent and return to Orthodoxy"?
2. What was he returning from?

1. Obviously we do not know precisely as it isn't recorded, nor do I think it's necessary to know precisely when he did.
2. He was returning from Judaizing, which was one of the primary subjects of the Council. Him and St. Paul had been sparring for a while on the issue,

I assume you meant to say "him and St. Peter", unless you're now talking about 2 different St. Pauls (or unless your talking about St. Paul sparring with himself).

and the Council of Jerusalem ruled in favor of St. Paul and against St. Peter. Judaizing is a heresy and once the Council ruled against it, I believe it's safe to say that St. Peter repented of it.

At the very least, St. Peter was sympathetic to the Judaizers and hadn't condemned them as St. Paul had.

How does any of that support the idea that "after the council, St. Paul repented and returned to Orthodoxy" (or that he had any need of doing so)?

I believe in the first post that started this little tangent the poster meant St Peter as opposed to St Paul, and just didn't catch his original mistake when you responded and bolded it. 

exactly lol i didn't notice that

Seems like that's a problem with a lot of conversations, both on this board and elsewhere. People are so much more interested in talking than listening that when they hear a question they launch into a lecture without even knowing what was asked.

Always assume the best about people: I myself often tend to get names starting with the same consonant confused and will say (or type, in this case) "Bill" when I meant "Brian".  Typing just makes it worst, because on rereading my mind is already prejudiced toward my meaning rather than what my eyes claim to see on the screen.


Yes, especially if he/she is Orthodox and you're on an Orthodox forum.

On the other hand, I'm Roman Catholic so there's less reason to assume the best about me, like assuming that I know what I'm talking about with respect to the Council of Jerusalem.

But my point is that it seems clear that 88Devin12 didn't bother to read my questions
Quote
1. At what point after the Council of Jerusalem did St. Paul "repent and return to Orthodoxy"?
2. What was he returning from?
very carefully before he launched into his lecture.
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« Reply #94 on: March 27, 2011, 04:21:21 PM »

Not really, I don't put effort into talking with trolls.

 laugh laugh laugh

Brilliant
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« Reply #95 on: March 27, 2011, 04:27:13 PM »

I don't know why people like Fr. Ambrose or Isa bother to debate with you

Interesting ... did you recently change your profile? Did it always say "I got Wheaties" or is that new? Just curious.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 04:28:04 PM by Peter J » Logged

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« Reply #96 on: March 27, 2011, 04:28:17 PM »

I don't know why people like Fr. Ambrose or Isa bother to debate with you

Interesting ... did you recently change your profile? I mean, did it always say "I GOT WHEATIES!" or that new? Just curious.

He just recently got the Wheaties  police
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« Reply #97 on: March 27, 2011, 04:29:12 PM »

I don't know why people like Fr. Ambrose or Isa bother to debate with you

Interesting ... did you recently change your profile? Did it always say "I got Wheaties" or is that new? Just curious.

I GOT THE WHEATIES
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« Reply #98 on: March 27, 2011, 04:57:41 PM »


Always assume the best about people: I myself often tend to get names starting with the same consonant confused and will say (or type, in this case) "Bill" when I meant "Brian".  Typing just makes it worst, because on rereading my mind is already prejudiced toward my meaning rather than what my eyes claim to see on the screen.


Yes, especially if he/she is Orthodox and you're on an Orthodox forum.

On the other hand, I'm Roman Catholic so there's less reason to assume the best about me, like assuming that I know what I'm talking about with respect to the Council of Jerusalem.

But my point is that it seems clear that 88Devin12 didn't bother to read my questions
Quote
1. At what point after the Council of Jerusalem did St. Paul "repent and return to Orthodoxy"?
2. What was he returning from?
very carefully before he launched into his lecture.

The only assumption I made regarding you was that when you said:
Quote
Yes, those kinds of statements can really be annoying. Here's one I recently read on a catholic.com forum: "At the first Apostolic Council of Jerusalem Peter settled the heated discussion over circumcising the gentiles and “the whole assembly fell silent” (Acts 15:7-12)."

you were commiserating with us over the silly statements from some of your fellow Roman Catholics,  much the same as I'd roll my eyes when some of our more, ahhh, "enthusiastic" Orthodox posters states something regarding Roman Catholicism that goes way overboard. I had nothing to contribute at that time, but it seemed to spark a rant in 88Devin that was not necessarily directed toward you, but rather your quote.  Everything after that was you and 88Devin talking past each other, due to his typo.  I know from previous posts of 88Devin's he has mild dyslexia and I know my own problem with names starting with similar consonants, and made my statement to call his attention to the fact that you were indeed talking past each other and that he was glossing over his typo.  My further statement regarding assumptions was merely an attempt to bring to light the fact that not all times people talk at cross-purposes are due to willful inattention by one party or another:  Some people just don't have good reading comprehension. 

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« Reply #99 on: March 27, 2011, 05:04:42 PM »


Always assume the best about people: I myself often tend to get names starting with the same consonant confused and will say (or type, in this case) "Bill" when I meant "Brian".  Typing just makes it worst, because on rereading my mind is already prejudiced toward my meaning rather than what my eyes claim to see on the screen.


Yes, especially if he/she is Orthodox and you're on an Orthodox forum.

On the other hand, I'm Roman Catholic so there's less reason to assume the best about me, like assuming that I know what I'm talking about with respect to the Council of Jerusalem.

But my point is that it seems clear that 88Devin12 didn't bother to read my questions
Quote
1. At what point after the Council of Jerusalem did St. Paul "repent and return to Orthodoxy"?
2. What was he returning from?
very carefully before he launched into his lecture.

The only assumption I made regarding you was that when you said:
Quote
Yes, those kinds of statements can really be annoying. Here's one I recently read on a catholic.com forum: "At the first Apostolic Council of Jerusalem Peter settled the heated discussion over circumcising the gentiles and “the whole assembly fell silent” (Acts 15:7-12)."

you were commiserating with us over the silly statements from some of your fellow Roman Catholics,  much the same as I'd roll my eyes when some of our more, ahhh, "enthusiastic" Orthodox posters states something regarding Roman Catholicism that goes way overboard.

I think PeterJ was using a bit of irony in his post.  The statement in question is actually a quote from Acts....no?

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« Reply #100 on: March 27, 2011, 05:19:36 PM »

Unfortunately, instead of clarifying, your last post just made things even more bizarre.

The thing about that Council was, he really didn't settle the discussion. As St. Peter was the one in the wrong, whereas St. Paul was the one upholding orthodoxy, as St. Peter had fallen to the heresy of Judaizing. Thankfully after the council, St. Paul repented and returned to Orthodoxy.

We're really getting off on a tangent now, but I'm quite puzzled by your last sentence, so I have to ask:
1. At what point after the Council of Jerusalem did St. Paul "repent and return to Orthodoxy"?
2. What was he returning from?

1. Obviously we do not know precisely as it isn't recorded, nor do I think it's necessary to know precisely when he did.
2. He was returning from Judaizing, which was one of the primary subjects of the Council. Him and St. Paul had been sparring for a while on the issue,

I assume you meant to say "him and St. Peter", unless you're now talking about 2 different St. Pauls (or unless your talking about St. Paul sparring with himself).

and the Council of Jerusalem ruled in favor of St. Paul and against St. Peter. Judaizing is a heresy and once the Council ruled against it, I believe it's safe to say that St. Peter repented of it.

At the very least, St. Peter was sympathetic to the Judaizers and hadn't condemned them as St. Paul had.

How does any of that support the idea that "after the council, St. Paul repented and returned to Orthodoxy" (or that he had any need of doing so)?

I believe in the first post that started this little tangent the poster meant St Peter as opposed to St Paul, and just didn't catch his original mistake when you responded and bolded it. 

exactly lol i didn't notice that

Seems like that's a problem with a lot of conversations, both on this board and elsewhere. People are so much more interested in talking than listening that when they hear a question they launch into a lecture without even knowing what was asked.

Always assume the best about people: I myself often tend to get names starting with the same consonant confused and will say (or type, in this case) "Bill" when I meant "Brian".  Typing just makes it worst, because on rereading my mind is already prejudiced toward my meaning rather than what my eyes claim to see on the screen.


Yes, especially if he/she is Orthodox and you're on an Orthodox forum.

On the other hand, I'm Roman Catholic so there's less reason to assume the best about me, like assuming that I know what I'm talking about with respect to the Council of Jerusalem.

But my point is that it seems clear that 88Devin12 didn't bother to read my questions
Quote
1. At what point after the Council of Jerusalem did St. Paul "repent and return to Orthodoxy"?
2. What was he returning from?
very carefully before he launched into his lecture.

... Actually yes, I responded to your questions...
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,34550.msg548429.html#msg548429

Also if you read my post more carefully, you also see that I had pointed out that St. Peter was the one that had been in the wrong, not St. Paul.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,34550.msg548413.html#msg548413

It had been clarified since then that my reply that said: "Thankfully after the council, St. Paul repented and returned to Orthodoxy."
Was simply a typo, and St. Paul should have been typed as St. Peter... (an honest mistake)

So my statement and reply still stands. St. Peter fell into the error of Judaizing, whereas St. Paul upheld the Orthodox faith. Judaizing was rejected at the Council of Jerusalem, and St. Peter thus had to repent of his Judaizing. (and thankfully did)
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« Reply #101 on: March 27, 2011, 05:26:30 PM »


Always assume the best about people: I myself often tend to get names starting with the same consonant confused and will say (or type, in this case) "Bill" when I meant "Brian".  Typing just makes it worst, because on rereading my mind is already prejudiced toward my meaning rather than what my eyes claim to see on the screen.


Yes, especially if he/she is Orthodox and you're on an Orthodox forum.

On the other hand, I'm Roman Catholic so there's less reason to assume the best about me, like assuming that I know what I'm talking about with respect to the Council of Jerusalem.

But my point is that it seems clear that 88Devin12 didn't bother to read my questions
Quote
1. At what point after the Council of Jerusalem did St. Paul "repent and return to Orthodoxy"?
2. What was he returning from?
very carefully before he launched into his lecture.

The only assumption I made regarding you was that when you said:
Quote
Yes, those kinds of statements can really be annoying. Here's one I recently read on a catholic.com forum: "At the first Apostolic Council of Jerusalem Peter settled the heated discussion over circumcising the gentiles and “the whole assembly fell silent” (Acts 15:7-12)."

you were commiserating with us over the silly statements from some of your fellow Roman Catholics,  much the same as I'd roll my eyes when some of our more, ahhh, "enthusiastic" Orthodox posters states something regarding Roman Catholicism that goes way overboard. I had nothing to contribute at that time, but it seemed to spark a rant in 88Devin that was not necessarily directed toward you, but rather your quote.  Everything after that was you and 88Devin talking past each other, due to his typo.  I know from previous posts of 88Devin's he has mild dyslexia and I know my own problem with names starting with similar consonants, and made my statement to call his attention to the fact that you were indeed talking past each other and that he was glossing over his typo.  My further statement regarding assumptions was merely an attempt to bring to light the fact that not all times people talk at cross-purposes are due to willful inattention by one party or another:  Some people just don't have good reading comprehension. 

Fair enough. I try to be "on guard" when I'm participating on forums like this or catholic.com (even more so with the latter, oddly enough). Unfortunately, that may sometimes turn into just being "defensive", in a negative sense.
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« Reply #102 on: March 27, 2011, 05:47:39 PM »

Quote
Orthodox-Catholic obstacles to reunion?

The Lord Jesus Christ himself says through the mouth of His saints, no such union will be possible for His church. The Church is The Church of his saints and without them there's no Church.

Great saints, living and dead (all of them are living and even more dead saints are more living then living sinful dead like us), all say these from all Orthodox countries (Greece, Serbia, Georgia, Russia, Romania). One example of this: Great Romanian saint (not canonized yet but for me it matters none) of 20th century, elder Arsenis Boca, says:
Quote
Ecumenism? It is the heresy of all heresies; The fall of the Church through its own servants; The instrument of the west; Only the rotten debris fall from the Orthodox Church be they bishopss, priests, monks, or layman. Let us return to Holy Tradition, Dogmas and Canons of the Holy Fathers, of the Seven Ecumenical Councils. Otherwise to hell - including our bishops. God forbid.

Mother Gavrilia, saintly woman, woman of God, answers when asked:
Quote
P.G.: Mother Gabriele, you have travelled all over the world.  You have become familiar with so many Monastic Orders: Roman Catholic, Buddhist, Hinduist. You have seen Organizations, Protestant Missionaries. You witnessed how their Missionary work was generously financed…yet you, a poor, Orthodox Nun, had such limited material margins, either to facilitate you, or for offering to others. Did it ever occur to you that it might have been better, if you were something else, other than an Orthodox?

Mother Gabriele: God forbid! No! It never crossed my mind, not for an instant, because that is precisely what I can boast!  I remember one time, when I was in Indira Ghandi’s office (Note: this was during her first trip to India, when she was still in the laity) and we were discussing a project of theirs. Just then, a woman came in and said to her (in front of me): “Is that a Catholic Nun that’s talking to you?” And Ghandi replied to her: “No, she is from the Orthodox Church. You haven’t heard of it, because it doesn’t exist in India, but it is an entirely different Church”…And when I came to Jerusalem, in our extremely humble Monastery in 1959, there came some Catholic nuns, who said to me: “This is Christ’s true Way of Life, because you here are deprived of everything…we, however, have all the comforts”…Can you understand what I am saying? (Page 291 of "The Ascetic Of Love")

It is remarkable, how she never agreed to joint praying, in spite of her friendships and associations with people from other dogmas.  We saw this with our own eyes, when she lived in Athens; she would receive phone calls from heterodox nuns, who would say to her: “We’ll come over, to pray together”… “I never pray vocally, and I never pray with company; only alone, or in the Church”, she would say to them, “but you’re welcome to come over for a nice cup of tea and tell me all your news”, she would add.

Even though she lived and moved within so many heterodox and other religions, there was not a single trace of Syncretism in her spiritual life and in matters of Worship. And this was doubly appreciated by her fellow travellers (…) In fact, one day someone made a derogatory remark about our Most Holy Mother (those who have so much as mentioned Her name to Protestants, can understand this).

Gabriele allowed a few minutes to pass, then, taking aside the person responsible, said to him: “My brother, I’m sorry, but I have to tell you that from tomorrow, I will no longer be with you”.  He became very upset and sorrowed, because he had never seen that expression on her face before. She then explained to him: “I cannot tolerate listening to such words about the One I love the most, after Christ.”  Naturally, apologies were expressed, and this kind of incident was not repeated. (Page 96-97 of the same book)

Last quotes are especially priceless. It shows that we don't need to pray together at all to be good friends and to love a man of different religion, different walk. I myself have friends who are protestants, Muslisms or even Atheists. I do not deride them and I respect them as much as my Orthodox friends. But we should say "no" to common prayers not to mention union.

P.S. The Saints mentioned walk the Way of God and for that  they will the Way. No other way is salvific for our souls. "Let us return to Holy Tradition, Dogmas and Canons of the Holy Fathers".
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« Reply #103 on: March 27, 2011, 06:04:04 PM »

I don't know why people like Fr. Ambrose or Isa bother to debate with you

Interesting ... did you recently change your profile? I mean, did it always say "I GOT WHEATIES!" or that new? Just curious.

He just recently got the Wheaties  police

Ah ... I noticed his "I don't know why people like Fr. Ambrose or Isa bother to debate with you" statement and thought to myself "That's funny ... doesn't his profile say he's a fan of Isa?" Then I checked, and discovered it didn't say that, which made me wonder if he'd recently changed it.

(I guess I should really be spending my time on more productive things.  Embarrassed  Cheesy )
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« Reply #104 on: March 27, 2011, 06:40:18 PM »

I don't know why people like Fr. Ambrose or Isa bother to debate with you

Interesting ... did you recently change your profile? I mean, did it always say "I GOT WHEATIES!" or that new? Just curious.

He just recently got the Wheaties  police

Ah ... I noticed his "I don't know why people like Fr. Ambrose or Isa bother to debate with you" statement and thought to myself "That's funny ... doesn't his profile say he's a fan of Isa?" Then I checked, and discovered it didn't say that, which made me wonder if he'd recently changed it.

(I guess I should really be spending my time on more productive things.  Embarrassed  Cheesy )


Wait you think I was being derogrative to ISa and Fr. Ambrose?
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« Reply #105 on: March 27, 2011, 07:13:10 PM »

Wait you think I was being derogrative to ISa and Fr. Ambrose?

No. Why, should I have thought that?
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« Reply #106 on: March 28, 2011, 03:29:35 PM »

I was pleased to see the exceptional humility shown by the Church of Serbia which informed the Primates that it would willingly accept to move down from 5th place to 6th place to allow Georgia to move up to 5th place.   

...

Huh?

What happened to:

1. Constantinople
2. Alexandria
3. Antioch
4. Jerusalem
5. Russia
6. Serbia

?
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« Reply #107 on: March 28, 2011, 09:45:51 PM »

I was pleased to see the exceptional humility shown by the Church of Serbia which informed the Primates that it would willingly accept to move down from 5th place to 6th place to allow Georgia to move up to 5th place.   

...

Huh?

What happened to:

1. Constantinople
2. Alexandria
3. Antioch
4. Jerusalem
5. Russia
6. Serbia

?

What happened to ... well, you probably already know what I'm going to say. Wink
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« Reply #108 on: March 28, 2011, 09:53:48 PM »

Not really, I don't put effort into talking with trolls.

Talking to yourself must come easy.

Dude, seriously:  Roll Eyes

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3843

Like her content or not, she's been here longer than you and provides substantive content on a board often at times less than sympathetic to her stuff.

She ain't no troll.
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« Reply #109 on: March 28, 2011, 10:03:14 PM »

I was pleased to see the exceptional humility shown by the Church of Serbia which informed the Primates that it would willingly accept to move down from 5th place to 6th place to allow Georgia to move up to 5th place.   

...

Huh?

What happened to:

1. Constantinople
2. Alexandria
3. Antioch
4. Jerusalem
5. Russia
6. Serbia

?

What happened to ... well, you probably already know what I'm going to say. Wink

And you don't already know the answer to that one?
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« Reply #110 on: March 28, 2011, 10:14:30 PM »

The whole precedence and numbering business is pointless.
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« Reply #111 on: March 28, 2011, 10:16:05 PM »

Not really, I don't put effort into talking with trolls.

Talking to yourself must come easy.
K.

Quote
Dude, seriously:  Roll Eyes

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3843

Like her content or not, she's been here longer than you and provides substantive content on a board often at times less than sympathetic to her stuff.

She ain't no troll.

Her only purpose on an Orthodox board is to somehow "educate" us about the "misconceptions" of the Catholic Church, but does not delve into discussing Orthodox faith, theology, history and the like. Her presence is extraneous and has exhibited troll like behavior in the past. Her primary intent is to provoke an emotional response from the Orthodox without actually providing any substantial discourse.

Instead of addressing what I replied to, she quipped one quote. But thanks for adding nothing to this discussion.
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« Reply #112 on: March 28, 2011, 10:20:32 PM »

Her only purpose on an Orthodox board is to somehow "educate" us about the "misconceptions" of the Catholic Church, but does not delve into discussing Orthodox faith, theology, history and the like. Her presence is extraneous and has exhibited troll like behavior in the past. Her primary intent is to provoke an emotional response from the Orthodox without actually providing any substantial discourse.

Instead of addressing what I replied to, she quipped one quote. But thanks for adding nothing to this discussion.

If you only had such insight into your own psyche.

You might notice there are inter-Orthodox and other faith subforums.

You might want to go back read some of the threads you start here, before throwing stones.
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« Reply #113 on: March 28, 2011, 10:26:15 PM »

Her only purpose on an Orthodox board is to somehow "educate" us about the "misconceptions" of the Catholic Church, but does not delve into discussing Orthodox faith, theology, history and the like. Her presence is extraneous and has exhibited troll like behavior in the past. Her primary intent is to provoke an emotional response from the Orthodox without actually providing any substantial discourse.

Instead of addressing what I replied to, she quipped one quote. But thanks for adding nothing to this discussion.

If you only had such insight into your own psyche.
Love the ad hominems, there an ignore button on this board?
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« Reply #114 on: March 28, 2011, 11:11:25 PM »

Her only purpose on an Orthodox board is to somehow "educate" us about the "misconceptions" of the Catholic Church, but does not delve into discussing Orthodox faith, theology, history and the like. Her presence is extraneous and has exhibited troll like behavior in the past. Her primary intent is to provoke an emotional response from the Orthodox without actually providing any substantial discourse.

Instead of addressing what I replied to, she quipped one quote. But thanks for adding nothing to this discussion.

If you only had such insight into your own psyche.
Love the ad hominems, there an ignore button on this board?

An ad hominem is not a fallacy necessarily. Weird to decry it, when nearly the entirety of a few posts of yours were just that.
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« Reply #115 on: March 28, 2011, 11:35:58 PM »

Her only purpose on an Orthodox board is to somehow "educate" us about the "misconceptions" of the Catholic Church, but does not delve into discussing Orthodox faith, theology, history and the like. Her presence is extraneous and has exhibited troll like behavior in the past. Her primary intent is to provoke an emotional response from the Orthodox without actually providing any substantial discourse.

Instead of addressing what I replied to, she quipped one quote. But thanks for adding nothing to this discussion.

If you only had such insight into your own psyche.
Love the ad hominems, there an ignore button on this board?

An ad hominem is not a fallacy necessarily. Weird to decry it, when nearly the entirety of a few posts of yours were just that.

Never claimed it was a logical fallacy. What's so funny to me is that you interjected in this discussion, late at that, and tried to take a stab at me with an eye roll worthy insult. As I said you're only reason for posting in this thread and the other Catholic one was to pick a fight, but what's new.
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« Reply #116 on: March 28, 2011, 11:41:59 PM »

I was pleased to see the exceptional humility shown by the Church of Serbia which informed the Primates that it would willingly accept to move down from 5th place to 6th place to allow Georgia to move up to 5th place.   

...

Huh?

What happened to:

1. Constantinople
2. Alexandria
3. Antioch
4. Jerusalem
5. Russia
6. Serbia

?
Yes, Serbs did right thing simply because they are Orthodox and being Orthodox means to say and follow the truth first of all. And the truth is Orthodox Church of Georgia became autocephalous in the 5th century. Since then OCG has been 5th, after the Church of Jerusalem, on the diptychs. There's a diptych during the time of Florence-Ferrera council from 15th century where OCG is placed 6th, but on this diptych Rome was named first. Russia became autocephalous in 16th century. These are historical facts. During this time they requested to be put 3d (after Church of Alexandria) but that could not have been done for a definite reason. So and thus Russia was offered 5th place (not including Rome) and OCG was moved down to 6th, which probably was beneficial for the whole Orthodoxy. In 19th century Russians against all truth and Orthodox faith annulled the autocephaly of OCG. Later it was restored (in 1947) and our Patriarch was back to 6th place. Then there were some problems with Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople refusing to recognize OCG as autocephalous. After historical proof of OCG's autocephaly was presented to them they finally recognized OCG as autocephalous. In fact there was an attampt from the Church of Antioch to subdue OCG under their jurisdiction in the 11th century but Great Georgian Saint Georgi Athoneli (George the Athonite) proved them wrong (another interesting story).

OCA has on its website the diptych from 2008 and this is the list:
Quote
To His Holiness, BARTHOLOMEW, Archbishop of Constantinople, New Rome and
Ecumenical Patriarch: Many Years!

To His Beatitude, THEODOROS, Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa: Many
Y ears!

To His Beatitude, IGNATIUS, Patriarch of Antioch and All the East: Many Years!

To His Beatitude, THEOPHILUS, Patriarch of the Holy City of Jerusalem and All Palestine: Many Years!

To His Holiness, ALEKSY, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia: Many Years!

To His Holiness, ILIA, Catholicos and Patriarch of All Georgia: Many Years!

To His Holiness, PAVLE, Patriarch of Serbia: Many Years!

To His Beatitude, DANIEL, Patriarch of Romania: Many Years!

To His Holiness, MAXIM, Patriarch of Bulgaria: Many Years!

To His Beatitude, CHRYSOSTOMOS, Archbishop of New Justiniana and All Cyprus: Many Years!

To His Beatitude, IERONYMOS, Archbishop of Athens and All Greece: Many Years!

To His Beatitude, ANASTASIOS, Archbishop of Tirana and All Albania: Many Years!

To His Beatitude, SAWA, Metropolitan of Warsaw and All Poland: Many Years!

To His Beatitude, KRYSTOF, Metropolitan of the Czech Lands and Slovakia: Many Years!

To His Beatitude, JONAH, Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of All America and Canada: Many Years!

To all Orthodox Metropolitans, Archbishops, and Bishops: Many Years! To all Orthodox Christians: Many Years!

Same for 2007, 2009 and 2010.

P.S. I do not care where in this list Our Mother Church is. Most important thing is the revival of faith in Georgia. All this was the info since many people do not know about it.
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« Reply #117 on: March 29, 2011, 12:46:42 AM »

Her only purpose on an Orthodox board is to somehow "educate" us about the "misconceptions" of the Catholic Church, but does not delve into discussing Orthodox faith, theology, history and the like. Her presence is extraneous and has exhibited troll like behavior in the past. Her primary intent is to provoke an emotional response from the Orthodox without actually providing any substantial discourse.

Instead of addressing what I replied to, she quipped one quote. But thanks for adding nothing to this discussion.

If you only had such insight into your own psyche.
Love the ad hominems, there an ignore button on this board?

An ad hominem is not a fallacy necessarily. Weird to decry it, when nearly the entirety of a few posts of yours were just that.

Thank you Orthonorm...thanks very much.
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« Reply #118 on: March 29, 2011, 02:44:44 AM »

So and thus Russia was offered 5th place (not including Rome) and OCG was moved down to 6th, which probably was beneficial for the whole Orthodoxy.

Why do you think that?
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« Reply #119 on: April 01, 2011, 05:46:23 PM »

So and thus Russia was offered 5th place (not including Rome) and OCG was moved down to 6th, which probably was beneficial for the whole Orthodoxy.

Why do you think that?
Sorry for late response. To answer your question, it was just my opinion. I do not want to blame Russians all the time (though they did unimaginable evil to Georgian Orthodox Church); so I said what I said. Besides during that period Russia was strongest Orthodox country and could "defend" (nothing can really defend Orthodoxy other then God himself) Orthodoxy. To do so they could have requested certain privileges - nothing unusual politically speaking.
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« Reply #120 on: April 02, 2011, 05:28:12 AM »

I don't really mind ,Curious Though ,How did Russia end up being ahead of Serbia in the diptychs...Since the Balkans has Orthodox Christianty 200 yrs earlier.....I wouldn't mind even if serbia is last on the list.... it say's the Last shall be First In the Kingdom...... Grin
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« Reply #121 on: April 02, 2011, 06:55:50 AM »

Nobody has yet picked up on what I was trying to get at. That quote says that the Church of Serbia would be willing to move down from spot #5. However, I have never heard of Serbia being in spot #5 either way. I have heard of Russia being spot #5. I have heard of Georgia being spot #5. I have never heard of Serbia being spot #5. What's the deal?
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« Reply #122 on: April 02, 2011, 06:58:14 AM »

I don't really mind ,Curious Though ,How did Russia end up being ahead of Serbia in the diptychs...

Because Russia has actually retained autocephaly for the past 500 or so years. Serbia attained autocephaly first before Russia, but it hasn't maintained it consistently through that period of time, so it was dropping in and out of the diptychs.
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« Reply #123 on: April 03, 2011, 02:48:31 AM »

Nobody has yet picked up on what I was trying to get at. That quote says that the Church of Serbia would be willing to move down from spot #5. However, I have never heard of Serbia being in spot #5 either way. I have heard of Russia being spot #5. I have heard of Georgia being spot #5. I have never heard of Serbia being spot #5. What's the deal?
Sorry, I did not notice that and I was thinking Serbia moved down from spot 6 to 7 and Georgia from 7 to 6, when I gave you my response. I think it was mechanical error on Irish Hermits side.
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« Reply #124 on: April 03, 2011, 12:25:54 PM »

Does where a Church ranks on the diptychs of the Eastern Orthodox Church really matter that much though? I mean, there are no privileges to a high rank since, according to Eastern Orthodox ecclesiology, they are all equal, right?
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« Reply #125 on: April 03, 2011, 03:45:15 PM »

Does where a Church ranks on the diptychs of the Eastern Orthodox Church really matter that much though? I mean, there are no privileges to a high rank since, according to Eastern Orthodox ecclesiology, they are all equal, right?

Good question. Maybe this is an area where "we're not as different as we thought".
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« Reply #126 on: April 05, 2011, 10:47:46 AM »

1.Abp.Sviatoslav was enthroned as archbishop major of the Catholic Kyiv Patriarchate
2. Russian Patriarch Cyril wants to accept Ukrainian citizenship and become Patriarch of Moscow and Kyiv!!!(Polish source: http://www.rp.pl/artykul/637526_Bitwa-religijna-o-Kijow.html )
3. Huh
I would like to scream: Ecumenism is in its final stages(!!) The Rhine has stopped flowing into the Tiber! Ecumenism is slowly dying, but its death is covered by the fact, that one of the Rhine fathers is reverting the Church to the orthodox course. I think that in the next Papacy, we might hear condemnations of syncretism by the Pope.
The Ukrainian nation has regained its independence, and wants to be a part of Europe, not Eurasia, the Catholic Patriarch of Kyiv has been enthroned, now I expect the Holy Ghost, in 20-50 years will convert the entire Ukrainian nation to its true faith, the Greko-Slavonic Catholic Faith. Just the thing is that the Ukrainian nationalists from Galicja should give up reading Evola and Doncov, and, read and preach the Gospels.
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« Reply #127 on: April 05, 2011, 11:10:31 AM »

2. Russian Patriarch Cyril wants to accept Ukrainian citizenship and become Patriarch of Moscow and Kyiv!!!(Polish source: http://www.rp.pl/artykul/637526_Bitwa-religijna-o-Kijow.html )

KP Hierarchs suppose that "Russian Patriarch Cyril wants to accept Ukrainian citizenship and become Patriarch of Moscow and Kyiv!!!". Please, read carefully.


Quote
Just the thing is that the Ukrainian nationalists from Galicja should give up reading Evola and Doncov, and, read and preach the Gospels.

Just the thing is that the Ukrainians should stop being Ukrainians.
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« Reply #128 on: April 05, 2011, 03:45:28 PM »

2. Russian Patriarch Cyril wants to accept Ukrainian citizenship and become Patriarch of Moscow and Kyiv!!!(Polish source: http://www.rp.pl/artykul/637526_Bitwa-religijna-o-Kijow.html )

KP Hierarchs suppose that "Russian Patriarch Cyril wants to accept Ukrainian citizenship and become Patriarch of Moscow and Kyiv!!!". Please, read carefully.


Quote
Just the thing is that the Ukrainian nationalists from Galicja should give up reading Evola and Doncov, and, read and preach the Gospels.

Just the thing is that the Ukrainians should stop being Ukrainians.

Well, if my Google translator from the Polish is correct, it sounds as if the 'information' being reported upon comes from the UOC-KP side. Does anyone have source material that directly ties this into the MP?

Such a move would not be well received in much of Ukraine, to say the least. However, the notion that it would cause a mass migration to Greek Catholicism seems to be not much more than a pipe dream.

I think that my own background allows me to say, let Greek Catholics be Greek Catholics if that is what they desire, but let the Orthodox resolve their own issues.

Once again, as they all fiddle around, both Orthodox and Greek Catholics, the only beneficiaries of this are the Protestants and the secular Russians.
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« Reply #129 on: April 05, 2011, 08:01:04 PM »

At the risk of sounding ignorant, synLeszka's just sounded weird to me. (At first I figured it was because I'm Catholic; then I realized that he/she is too.) So I'm just kinda waiting to see what else is said.
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« Reply #130 on: April 08, 2011, 10:20:02 AM »

I would like to start a poll here discussing the obstacles of reunion between Orthodox and Roman Catholics, and which issues we believe are legitimate obstacles and which can be circumvented via economy.

This may not be addressing your question precisely, but I think one of the biggest reasons that ecumenical progress isn't made is that many people are interested in a sort of cheap ecumenism -- as in, "We're already all the same."
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« Reply #131 on: April 08, 2011, 01:07:13 PM »

I would like to start a poll here discussing the obstacles of reunion between Orthodox and Roman Catholics, and which issues we believe are legitimate obstacles and which can be circumvented via economy.

This may not be addressing your question precisely, but I think one of the biggest reasons that ecumenical progress isn't made is that many people are interested in a sort of cheap ecumenism -- as in, "We're already all the same."
It is for this reason that I am glad to have found this forum. Even though it is saddening that there is so much that separates us, at least I am not being ignorantly optimistic like I used to be.
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« Reply #132 on: April 09, 2011, 02:07:31 PM »

This may not be addressing your question precisely, but I think one of the biggest reasons that ecumenical progress isn't made is that many people are interested in a sort of cheap ecumenism -- as in, "We're already all the same."
It is for this reason that I am glad to have found this forum. Even though it is saddening that there is so much that separates us, at least I am not being ignorantly optimistic like I used to be.

Let me guess ... you used to be Anglican?
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« Reply #133 on: April 09, 2011, 11:15:04 PM »

This may not be addressing your question precisely, but I think one of the biggest reasons that ecumenical progress isn't made is that many people are interested in a sort of cheap ecumenism -- as in, "We're already all the same."
It is for this reason that I am glad to have found this forum. Even though it is saddening that there is so much that separates us, at least I am not being ignorantly optimistic like I used to be.

Let me guess ... you used to be Anglican?
No. United Methodist, catechized in Lutheran School, then Wesleyan.
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« Reply #134 on: April 09, 2011, 11:21:53 PM »

This may not be addressing your question precisely, but I think one of the biggest reasons that ecumenical progress isn't made is that many people are interested in a sort of cheap ecumenism -- as in, "We're already all the same."
It is for this reason that I am glad to have found this forum. Even though it is saddening that there is so much that separates us, at least I am not being ignorantly optimistic like I used to be.

Let me guess ... you used to be Anglican?

While I would prefer the term overly optimistic instead of the one used above, almost every person* that is Roman Catholic that I've met could be described in this way. There seems to be a general idea that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are just sister Churches or basically the same Church, and it was merely some pesky political issues a long long time ago in a land far far away that resulted in the division.


*I am excluding 1) people who post on internet forums, and 2) people who are in traditionalist Catholic groups.
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