The State of the Macedonian Orthodox Church

[gphadraig]

John,

I find your responses interesting, but suspect that the person you are addressing is deaf to reason, debate or factual evidence unless it supports his case. Sadly.

Still it educates the rest of us.........

[Canmak]

JoeS here is a response to the "Rome" question you had earlier.

The information you gave me is incorrect. What happened was "the
other way around" i.e. Rome tried to get Macedonia to become Roman
Catholic, and it didn't happen. There was one bishop who I think sort
of played with the idea, a Bishop Kiril, who, it seems, was a
communist plant (he uncanonically became a bishop). Very few clergy
sort of played with the idea also. One of his spiritual children, a
Bishop Agatangel was dead set against even allowing the Pope to visit
Macedonia.
Nevertheless, I will ask Bishop Naum to send me some clear-cut
information about this, so that we could actually have some info from
one of the Bishops there.
The subject was brought up when we were in Macedonia a few months
ago. One thing I know is that there were riots in Macedonia when
there was just some hinting about joining Rome; the people made it
clear that they did not want to deny their faith.

In Christ
Fr Demetrius

Father Demetrius is from The Holy Transfiguration Monastary (outside of boston I believe)......it is also under the Holy Orthodox Church in North America's jurisdiction.

Regardless he is not part of the Macedonian Orthodox Church but was just there recently (he went to Mt.Athos, Greece and Macedonia over the summer).

He is basically the person who started my path of rebirth in orthodoxy.......I am still not there I realize but I have started going to church on a regular basis because of him.......basically he is my spiritual advisor......he is the person I talk to when I have problems regarding teh faith.

[SouthSerb99]

Unfortunately I jump into the mix with a heavy heart.  I have read much of what has been "spewed" by a select few on these boards about the "Macedonian Church" and I felt compelled to respond.

First I'll get to my bias.  Many people do the same, so I will let you know that I am ethnically Serbian from a geographic area located in Northern FYROM.  This area runs along the Serbian border with Kosovo and is home to one the most scenic mountain ranges in region (Sar Mountain Range or Sar Planina if you will).  I give my ethnic background as a preface of my "built in" bias.

The reason why I am saddened by writing this email is because I consider myself and "Orthodoxy Nationalist", if you will.  That is to say, I have always felt it paramount that all "Orthodox Churches" and their constituents work together for the propagation of the one and only true faith.  I feel as though the "Macedonians" and their Church have worked to undermine this, over and over again.

Furthermore, the fact that CanMak (one of the within posters) would come on this discussion and denounce one of the pillars of modern orthodoxy (Patriarch Pavle), is an utter disgrace.  You will here no such characterizations from me about individuals in the MOC.   Aside from CanMak's absolute use of revisionism, he shows the highest disregard for collective orthodoxy when he "mischaracterizes" the statements of Patriarch Pavle and publicly disparges him on an Orthodox discussion board.  For that, you should be ashamed.

But back to the substance.  In September 1967 the Serbian Orthodox Synod declared the Macedonian Orthodox Church to be a schismatic religious organization and broke off all liturgical and canonical links with its hierarchy, although not with its faithful. This decision has been supported by other Orthodox churches, as none has recognized the legitimacy of the Macedonian church.

Since that time, the MOC has gone to many lengths to be recognized as an "authocephelus Church" but has been rejected each and every time by ALL branches of Orthodoxy, including Constantinople. 

Unfortunately, it is impossible to separate the political issues from the religious so I must put this in a context.  Let me explain a bit of how we got here with modern FYROM...

My family moved from Kosovo in the late 19th Century to the Sar Planina region of modern FYROM.  Our history and bloodlines are all Serbian.  However, as the communists came to power in Yugoslavia, they sought to undermine the strength of the Serbian majority under the guise of "brotherhood and unity" (bratstvo i jedenstvo - actually means brotherhood and oneness).  So here is what they did in the republic of Macedonia...

Families like mine, who were all ethnically Serbian had their names arbitrarily changed to "Macedonian" names (that meant you changed vic to ski).  So, you were born and raised with the last name Stojanovic and the communists say... "hey we've got to wipe out the Serbian identity in the republic of Macedonia" and "Macedonianize all the names"  So, Stojanovic became Stojanovski. 

Thousands of years of History, wiped out, with the stroke of a pen.  Overtime, Serbs started to actually believe they were Macedonian.  In fact, so warped was the logic, many Serbs in the Tetovo region of FYROM will say something like this... "Well, I may be Slavic, but I'm the same as Alexander the great".  And to that, you say... huh???  Believe it.  Most non-muslims in the Tetovo region of FYROM admit 100% that they are Slavs, but also think they are somehow the descendants of Alexander.

Let me make it more personal.  My wife's maiden name is Jovanovski.  Recently we returned to FYROM and I insisted that we gain access to public records for her family (First in a village called Vratnica and then later Tetovo).  We looked through all of her family records and low and behold, what did we find.  Every single recorded document which predated 1953, was registered as Jovanovic.

Furthermore, after reading through these documents (my cousin actually read the documents for us, he is a local attorney and reads cyrillic), we found notations on two recorded property documents (kind of like deeds but not as sophisticated) from 80 years ago,  which identified my wife's great grandfather as being "Serbian".   

There was absolutely NO documentation ANYWHERE that would indicate that he was in anyway Macedonian or belonging to the MOC.  In fact, we couldn't find ANY documentation to even show the existence of the MOC in North FYROM until 1961.   However, over time, a portion of my wife's family actually started to believe they are "Macedonian" like Alexander.  Hogwash!  She knows it and now, by copying many of these documents, I have been able to prove it to many of her family members.

Lastly... is the issue of Slava.  You can pretty much derive what every FYROMian is by looking at Slava.  Those of us stuck in FYROM that celebrate Slava are all Serbs.  That is probably about 30% of the Country including almost all of the non-muslim North and Northeast.  Only Serbs celebrate this religious event.  My Slava is St. Nicholas (December 19).

Those who celebrate name days are split between Greek and Bulgarian with the majority leaning Bulgarian.  I would guess about 20-30% of the population is Bulgarian.  A small percentage in the South has Hellenic roots and the remainder of the Country is mixed between various groups.  I haven't included Albanians in these numbers as they don't factor (too much) into the Orthodox issues.

This point is primarily for my Greek brothers and Sisters as well as my "Macedonian" brothers and sisters.  Many of us (primarily in the North) make no claims to Macedonia or Alexander.  We are happy to have the Greeks as our neighbors in geography and our family in faith.  Please don't paint us all with a broad brush.

In the end, what I would like to see happen here, is for the MOC to come to its senses and accept being an autonomous Church under the auspicies of the SOC. 

In addition, the Macedonian government should officially take a position of never seeking historical Macedonian lands in Greece, Bulgaria & Serbia.   Once that is accomplished all of the Orthodox nations in the region (Serbia & Montenegro, Greece, FYROM, Bulgaria & Romania) should enter into an independent trading block working with and within the EU for mutual prosperity.

This group could work together as a collective voice for various Orthodox issues....ie - freeing Cyprus from Turkish tyranny, expelling terrorist Albanians from South Serbia and Northwest Macedonia, slowing the spread of Islam in the Balkans.  Working on "secularizing" Islamic countries such as the fraud known as Bosnia, Albania and Turkey.  Promoting Orthodoxy as the one true faith, first in the Balkans and then to the rest of Europe and the World.

Only when we resolve our ridiculous inner squabbles can Orthodoxy move forward.  Until then, we will be left eating the scraps thrown to us from the Vatican and other Western political forces. 

[sdcheung]

Unfortunately I jump into the mix with a heavy heart. I have read much of what has been "spewed" by a select few on these boards about the "Macedonian Church" and I felt compelled to respond....
SNIP

I agree with you.

[SouthSerb99]

sdcheung... thanks

One last things.  I've read much of what John has posted.

Brilliant stuff.

[sdcheung]

sdcheung... thanks

One last things. I've read much of what John has posted.

Brilliant stuff.

John? who's John? Direct me to one of his posts.
Correction..Ok..now I know...

[Anastasios]

Canmak was temporarily banned from this site and then quit so let's make sure we don't direct anything at him personally.

[SouthSerb99]

My apologies.  I was unaware he is gone.

My comments were not meant to disparage but rather as a means of voicing my displeasure at much of which I was reading.

Like I said in my original post, I firmly believe in the propogation of our faith and feel it is of the utmost importance to defend our principles from unjustified attack.

[Anastasios]

Dear SouthSerb,

In such a context your criticism is entirely justified--I just wanted to make sure everyone knows the status of Mr. Canmak. Carry on!

Anastasios

[Nacho]

This group could work together as a collective voice for various Orthodox issues....ie - freeing Cyprus from Turkish tyranny, expelling terrorist Albanians from South Serbia and Northwest Macedonia, slowing the spread of Islam in the Balkans.  Working on "secularizing" Islamic countries such as the fraud known as Bosnia, Albania and Turkey.  Promoting Orthodoxy as the one true faith, first in the Balkans and then to the rest of Europe and the World.

Sounds like you have great vision. Wish what you are saying could become reality but I doubt it.

[SouthSerb99]

Nacho... Oh ye have little faith!

Call me an optimist, but I firmly believe as the atheistic influences of the communists wears away in the Balkans and Russia, we have an greater chance at Orthodox Unity.

Remember, many countries, such as Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania and Russia are only now starting to really embrace their faith.  The communists really did a job on the Orthodox Church and belief therein. 

I also believe there is still a lot of political upheaval to play out in the Balkans, however, eventually their will be unity among the Orthodox in the Balkans.

In fact, I think the biggest threat to our Church right now is over zealous Ecumenism.

[Nacho]

Nacho... Oh ye have little faith!

Call me an optimist, but I firmly believe as the atheistic influences of the communists wears away in the Balkans and Russia, we have an greater chance at Orthodox Unity.

Remember, many countries, such as Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania and Russia are only now starting to really embrace their faith.  The communists really did a job on the Orthodox Church and belief therein. 

I also believe there is still a lot of political upheaval to play out in the Balkans, however, eventually their will be unity among the Orthodox in the Balkans.

In fact, I think the biggest threat to our Church right now is over zealous Ecumenism.

Hehe, this makes me feel a little better. I like your idea about "Orthodox Nationalism." I'm perplexed as to why there is not more unity among the various Orthodox. It would do some much good in my opinion and is much needed..

[sdcheung]

Hehe, this makes me feel a little better. I like your idea about "Orthodox Nationalism." I'm perplexed as to why there is not more unity among the various Orthodox. It would do some much good in my opinion and is much needed..

Thats because we don't have THE capital yet.

[prodromos]

One last things. I've read much of what John has posted.

Brilliant stuff.

Much appreciated, although I don't know about it being particularly brilliant 

John.

[jmbejdl]

SouthSerb,

I liked your talk of Orthodox 'nationalism' too. That's the only way I can see the political and ethnic wranglings in the Balkans being sorted out. The people are simply too mixed after all the various empires and migrations.

Where my wife comes from, in Romania, there is a Ukrainian minority (luckily they don't seem to mind their Romanian nationality). 3 km away is the Ukraine, but the people there are mostly Romanian as Stalin annexed that region. The Republic of Moldova is a complete nonsense - it's merely a reduced Besarabia with the Transdnistria tacked on, but they were told for years that their language was Slavic, that they were Moldovans not Romanians and so on. In actual fact they are ethnically and linguistically completely Romanian - I've even been mistaken for one because of my Moldovan accent when I speak Romanian.(Sounds remarkably like FYROM). Dobrogea has changed hands between Bulgaria and Romania several times and the populations are mixed. There are Vlachs (Romanians, Aromanians and Megleno-Romanians) scattered through the former Yugoslavia and Greece. There are Greeks in southern Romania (my godmother's one of them). The fact is that all of these modern territorial claims seem to be based on a wish to find an ethnic iomeland in history, but this is simply not possible - unless you look to the Empire. All the ethnic groups - Greek, Vlach and Slav - were part of the Empire and later part of the Ottoman empire, even though there were also the same groups outside of the Empire's borders.

Surely the shared history and faith of all these peoples should be more important than which modern nation they happen to find themselves in. We should all be looking to the examples of our common Orthodox saints and not some ethnically motivated, historically revisionist politician. Until we can see ourselves as Orthodox first and ethnic second we'll see no end to such nonsense.

James

[SouthSerb99]

Surely the shared history and faith of all these peoples should be more important than which modern nation they happen to find themselves in. We should all be looking to the examples of our common Orthodox saints and not some ethnically motivated, historically revisionist politician. Until we can see ourselves as Orthodox first and ethnic second we'll see no end to such nonsense.

My sentiments exactly.  I would love to see this materialize and I think this discussion board evidences the fact that it is not without possibility.

I also think that in the West, we have a very unique opportunity to open Orthodox Churches that are not along "ethnic lines".  Right now, the Churches in Canada and the USA have been established (primarily) along ethnic lines.  Overtime, I see the Orthodox Church of America expanding and bringing multiple ethnic groups together.

This will certainly strengthen the religious bonds.

[SouthSerb99]

Firstly, this "serb Pavle" is PATRIARCH OF AUTHOCHEPAL CHURCH and he (Canmak) should have measue his words. Canmak is not talking about his mates, school friends or penpals, and so on. This "serb Pavle" is Episkopos, holy man and the leader of a recognised  Orthodox Church.

Secondly, I just do not belive that Patriarch would say that people worshiping in so called MOC could go to hell. If you knew the man you would know that HH Pavle is such a Godly man.

Thirdly, how can somebody say that he or she is without respect for one of the Bishops of the Lords Militant Church, and not be punished?

This member (Canmak) has repetedly stated blasphemous words, lies, against highest members of the Orthodox Militant Church, against some of the sister Churches.

I wanted to use the above quote as an example of why I am optimistic about Orthodox unity.  This post is what got me to start posting on these boards.

Here, optxogokcoc, is defending Patriarch Pavle.  Now, I don't know optxogokcoc, but I suspect him to be Greek.  He felt compelled to defend a Serbian Patriarch even though he is not Serbian.

This exactly how it should be.  We should never allow anyone to disparage our faith or its representatives. 

I have the utmost respect for this type of statement.

[SouthSerb99]

For those interested, I thought I would post this link to an article illustrating the persecution Serbian Church Officials are facing in "democratic Macedonia".

It almost makes you long for the days of the "communists".

http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?article_id=506

This article is especially interesting given the fact that several RC Churches have "popped up" in FYROM without incident.

So, let me get this straight, FYROM a supposed "Orthodox" nation, persecutes member of the SOC and ignores the spread of the RC Church within their borders.  Does this sound odd to anyone else?

[sdcheung]

For those interested, I thought I would post this link to an article illustrating the persecution Serbian Church Officials are facing in "democratic Macedonia".

It almost makes you long for the days of the "communists".

http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?article_id=506

This article is especially interesting given the fact that several RC Churches have "popped up" in FYROM without incident.

So, let me get this straight, FYROM a supposed "Orthodox" nation, persecutes member of the SOC and ignores the spread of the RC Church within their borders. Does this sound odd to anyone else?

Course it does.
it means Skopia-Fyrom is deep in the pockets of The Soros foundation.

[SouthSerb99]

Course it does.
it means Skopia-Fyrom is deep in the pockets of The Soros foundation.

Not sure I ever heard that one before.

[sdcheung]

Not sure I ever heard that one before.

Creepy Organization trying to destabilize the Balkans.
trying to make the Balkans safe for de-mock-razy, capitalism, and materialism by weakening the orthodox Church and loosening the Morals of it's peoples

http://www.soros.org/

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