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Leisa
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« on: March 17, 2011, 11:52:52 AM »

What sense do you make of this:
http://www.syrianchurch.org/pzakka/joint_declaration.htm

In particular:  3. .. "The confusions and schisms that occurred between their Churches in the later centuries, they realize today, in no way affect or touch the substance of their faith, since these arose only because of differences in terminology and culture and in the various formulae adopted by different theological schools, to express the same matter."

Was it culture or terminology that prevented the Orthodox from realizing that the Roman Pope is in charge of all the Christian churches?

And regarding #4, is the Catholic church saying now that Christ has one nature and not two?
 

Wow, #7 is heavy, especially the word "lawful".

And #9, which contradicts #7 & #8 ......."which alone will enable us to give to the world a fully unanimous Gospel witness."
As if the gospel is not unanimous!  That is pretty funny.

This is Pope John Paul at his best with his double speak and his modern language which is neither a Yes or a No, but is full of contradiction and willful obfuscation.

Is the Syrian Orthodox church really buying this?  I mean, is this for real?

I am not merely a little bit confused by this Joint Declaration but a LOT confused by it.

I am not running from the Anti-Popes of the Catholic church to jump on to another sinking ship.  If the Syrian Orthodox church aligns itself with modern heresies then they will sink right alongside the Catholic church.

I PRAY this is not the case and I am misunderstanding.

« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 11:57:24 AM by Leisa » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2011, 11:45:13 PM »

I am not running from the Anti-Popes of the Catholic church to jump on to another sinking ship.  If the Syrian Orthodox church aligns itself with modern heresies then they will sink right alongside the Catholic church.

I PRAY this is not the case and I am misunderstanding.

Well, I personally hate this joint statement and wrote quite a scathing critique of it when someone posted it on my Facebook profile asking me what I thought about it (I think mostly offering it in favor of it as an ecumenical reconciliation, while I heavily rebuked).

And I must be completely upfront to you and warn you if this is your attitude. The Oriental Orthodox Church is becoming quite inundated with false ecumenism. Having come from the EOC, I can tell you that the situation is at least 2x worse in the OOC. So if your predominant concern is the current common stance on false ecumenism, I cannot recommend the OOC to you. However, I must say that such an attitude is a little shallow, and will not most clearly lead you to the Church established by Christ. More importantly is what is the historic dogmatic confession of the Church. In this respect I look to the OOC as having always contained the Apostolic truth over and above all other communions. Just because the Church is now becoming infected by heresy on an individual level does not mean it is no longer the Church. This situation has occurred numerous times before throughout history; just look at the Arian controversy and what I am talking about should be obvious. So while this uprising of false ecumenism is very discouraging to me, it has not yet led me to conclude that the OOC is not the Church, as it has not yet overcome it.
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« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2011, 11:46:12 PM »

And regarding #4, is the Catholic church saying now that Christ has one nature and not two?

Another point that came to mind, what exactly is your issue here? Are you not aware that the traditional Oriental Orthodox teaching is that Christ has one nature and not two?
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« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2011, 12:09:44 PM »


Hi Deusveritasest,  Thank you.  I appreciate your response.  


Regarding your second question and the issue of #4 in the Joint Declaration, I was confused.  I had it backwards. It appears that the OOC is making a compromise because #4 is reiterating the 4th Ecumenical council that says that Christ has 2 natures.  So by signing this Joint Declaration is the OOC now saying that Christ had two natures?








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« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2011, 02:59:31 PM »


Hi Deusveritasest,  Thank you.  I appreciate your response.  


Regarding your second question and the issue of #4 in the Joint Declaration, I was confused.  I had it backwards. It appears that the OOC is making a compromise because #4 is reiterating the 4th Ecumenical council that says that Christ has 2 natures.  So by signing this Joint Declaration is the OOC now saying that Christ had two natures?

Ummmm..... so far as I can see there is no mention of natures in #4 at all, let alone their numeration, or particularly "two natures". What gave you the impression that it was addressing the matter of natures?
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« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2011, 03:52:15 PM »

"Was it culture or terminology that prevented the Orthodox from realizing that the Roman Pope is in charge of all the Christian churches?"

Neither; he's not.
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« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2011, 03:53:41 PM »

"Was it culture or terminology that prevented the Orthodox from realizing that the Roman Pope is in charge of all the Christian churches?"

Neither; he's not.

The question might have been rhetorical, actually...
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« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2011, 09:08:41 PM »

oriental orthodox believe in the 2 natures of Jesus Christ.
we tended to emphasize the unity of the 2 natures rather than the existence of 2 of them, so it is a different wording, but the same belief as the eastern orthodox church.
the divine nature united with the human nature 'without mingling, without confusion and without alteration' (coptic liturgy of saint cyril); however we certainly recognise the fact that there are 2 natures.
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« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2011, 09:18:20 PM »

And regarding #4, is the Catholic church saying now that Christ has one nature and not two?

Another point that came to mind, what exactly is your issue here? Are you not aware that the traditional Oriental Orthodox teaching is that Christ has one nature and not two?

If Rome accepts the 5th council then she should tolerate such language as well. But in my talks with both Reformed protestants and Roman Catholics is that they tend to stress Saint Leo. The EO stress Saint Cyril and we interpret Saint Leo in light of Saint Cyril. Thus, Leo is a subordinate authority to Cyril. And if there is any confusion about this then the 5th council makes it clear.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 09:42:20 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2011, 09:30:14 PM »

What sense do you make of this:
http://www.syrianchurch.org/pzakka/joint_declaration.htm

In particular:  3. .. "The confusions and schisms that occurred between their Churches in the later centuries, they realize today, in no way affect or touch the substance of their faith, since these arose only because of differences in terminology and culture and in the various formulae adopted by different theological schools, to express the same matter."

Was it culture or terminology that prevented the Orthodox from realizing that the Roman Pope is in charge of all the Christian churches?

And regarding #4, is the Catholic church saying now that Christ has one nature and not two?
 

Wow, #7 is heavy, especially the word "lawful".

And #9, which contradicts #7 & #8 ......."which alone will enable us to give to the world a fully unanimous Gospel witness."
As if the gospel is not unanimous!  That is pretty funny.

This is Pope John Paul at his best with his double speak and his modern language which is neither a Yes or a No, but is full of contradiction and willful obfuscation.

Is the Syrian Orthodox church really buying this?  I mean, is this for real?

I am not merely a little bit confused by this Joint Declaration but a LOT confused by it.

I am not running from the Anti-Popes of the Catholic church to jump on to another sinking ship.  If the Syrian Orthodox church aligns itself with modern heresies then they will sink right alongside the Catholic church.

I PRAY this is not the case and I am misunderstanding.


Both EO and OO are Cyrillian in their Christology and so off the bat there will automatically be alot of common ground.

If you want, you can buy the book:
On the Unity of Christ by Saint Cyril of Alexandria, edited by John Anthony McGuckin
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 09:34:57 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2011, 10:11:29 AM »

 Deusveritasest,

Hi, here is the content in #4 of the Joint Declaration that confuses me:

..."We confess that our Lord and our God, our Saviour and the King of all, Jesus Christ, is perfect humanity. In Him His divinity is united to His humanity. This union is real, perfect, without blending or mingling, without confusion, without alteration, without division, without the least separation. He who is God eternal and indivisible, became visible in the flesh and took the form of servant. In him are united, in a real, perfect indivisible and inseparable way, divinity and humanity, and in Him all their properties are present and active."

Is this saying Christ has two natures that are united, the same as what the 4th council of Chalcedon states?

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Leisa
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« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2011, 10:21:14 AM »

oriental orthodox believe in the 2 natures of Jesus Christ.
we tended to emphasize the unity of the 2 natures rather than the existence of 2 of them, so it is a different wording, but the same belief as the eastern orthodox church.
the divine nature united with the human nature 'without mingling, without confusion and without alteration' (coptic liturgy of saint cyril); however we certainly recognise the fact that there are 2 natures.

Hi Mabsoota, thank you for your reply,

Two united is still two!  You cannot unite one thing.
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« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2011, 03:19:15 PM »

If two united is two then they are not united, in the sense you seem to be speaking.

The OO have always confessed the continuing integrity of the humanity and divinity of Christ and their continuing difference, but in the OO terminology this does not result in two natures but one. Nature has the sense of identity and being, not essence.

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« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2011, 03:47:00 PM »

The OO have always confessed the continuing integrity of the humanity and divinity of Christ and their continuing difference, but in the OO terminology this does not result in two natures but one. Nature has the sense of identity and being, not essence.

In our (EO) terminology, "nature" is used more in reference to the characteristrics particular to essence than identity and being. I think the majority of people on here know this, but just wanted to quickly point out that this would be one of the differences in expression that doesn't necessarily mean a difference in substance of belief.
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« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2011, 04:34:16 PM »

Absolutely!

And that is why a simple insistence on one nature or two isn't very helpful, and of course in any case the OO speak of 'one incarnate nature' rather than 'one simple nature'.

It is necessary for us to understand what we all mean, rather than only understanding what others say according to our own terms.
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« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2011, 10:57:48 AM »

Ok, you guys lost me completely. 

Can you put it in terms a person with no background in theology could understand?

And I have a question as well that you might wish to answer, and that is, does anyone say that Christ has only one divine nature?

And if not, why not?  Why must he have a human nature?
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« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2011, 11:05:32 AM »

But if you have got lost then why are you making such a point of disagreeing with the statements our hierarchs have made?

Again, it is not a simple matter to make any statement as you request since it depends entirely on what is meant by 'nature' and 'one'.

If Christ is not human then we are not saved. The best thing to start with would be to read St Athanasius 'On The Incarnation' which will explain why the incarnation was necessary.

You should also take any comments which deusveritasest makes with caution. He is NOT a member of the Oriental Orthodox communion and I believe that he has a false understanding of the teaching of the Church.

Father Peter
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« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2011, 10:16:36 AM »

But if you have got lost then why are you making such a point of disagreeing with the statements our hierarchs have made?

Again, it is not a simple matter to make any statement as you request since it depends entirely on what is meant by 'nature' and 'one'.

If Christ is not human then we are not saved. The best thing to start with would be to read St Athanasius 'On The Incarnation' which will explain why the incarnation was necessary.

You should also take any comments which deusveritasest makes with caution. He is NOT a member of the Oriental Orthodox communion and I believe that he has a false understanding of the teaching of the Church.

Father Peter

You sound like a Catholic.  They do not like people asking questions either.
My questions remain.

Leisa
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« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2011, 10:24:14 AM »

Then if your questions remain you shoudl turn to the authoritative sources which will educate you, such as On the Incarnation by St Athanasius.

My own point remains, if you do not understand these things then how are you in a position to question our hierarchs? Seek understanding first and then you will be able to criticise if you wish.
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« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2011, 10:35:24 AM »

But if you have got lost then why are you making such a point of disagreeing with the statements our hierarchs have made?

Again, it is not a simple matter to make any statement as you request since it depends entirely on what is meant by 'nature' and 'one'.

If Christ is not human then we are not saved. The best thing to start with would be to read St Athanasius 'On The Incarnation' which will explain why the incarnation was necessary.

You should also take any comments which deusveritasest makes with caution. He is NOT a member of the Oriental Orthodox communion and I believe that he has a false understanding of the teaching of the Church.

Father Peter

You sound like a Catholic.  They do not like people asking questions either.
My questions remain.

Leisa

You got to be kidding me!  You sound like a Joker.  They like to not make any sense when posting ad hominems.  The suggestion to actually study the sources before you ask idiotic questions remain.
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« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2011, 11:09:08 AM »

Then if your questions remain you shoudl turn to the authoritative sources which will educate you, such as On the Incarnation by St Athanasius.

My own point remains, if you do not understand these things then how are you in a position to question our hierarchs? Seek understanding first and then you will be able to criticise if you wish.

How is a person to understand if they are not allowed to ask questions?

Leisa
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« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2011, 11:14:11 AM »



[/quote]

You got to be kidding me!  You sound like a Joker.  They like to not make any sense when posting ad hominems.  The suggestion to actually study the sources before you ask idiotic questions remain.
[/quote]


You might have to consider going to confession now for insulting.
I don't know if that is how it works in the Coptic church but in the Catholic church we are not allowed to insult people.

Peace,
Leisa
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« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2011, 11:36:38 AM »




You got to be kidding me!  You sound like a Joker.  They like to not make any sense when posting ad hominems.  The suggestion to actually study the sources before you ask idiotic questions remain.
[/quote]


You might have to consider going to confession now for insulting.
I don't know if that is how it works in the Coptic church but in the Catholic church we are not allowed to insult people.

Peace,
Leisa
[/quote]

Hi Leisa--Do you think that all opinions are equally valid? Do you think that all people have, not only the right to make any statement but that the statements that they make are of equal worth?
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« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2011, 11:38:04 AM »




You got to be kidding me!  You sound like a Joker.  They like to not make any sense when posting ad hominems.  The suggestion to actually study the sources before you ask idiotic questions remain.
[/quote]


You might have to consider going to confession now for insulting.
I don't know if that is how it works in the Coptic church but in the Catholic church we are not allowed to insult people.

Peace,
Leisa
[/quote]

Really Leisa?  And you never considered that you were insulting Fr. Peter?
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« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2011, 11:47:54 AM »

Then if your questions remain you shoudl turn to the authoritative sources which will educate you, such as On the Incarnation by St Athanasius.

My own point remains, if you do not understand these things then how are you in a position to question our hierarchs? Seek understanding first and then you will be able to criticise if you wish.

How is a person to understand if they are not allowed to ask questions?

Leisa


Exactly how are you not being allowed to ask questions? Just because you aren't being given an easy answer doesn't mean you are being obstructed.
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« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2011, 11:58:01 AM »

Nature has the sense of identity and being, not essence.

But Severus quite explicitly rejects even the notion of two "essences" in Christ. Clearly, he expresses the integrity of both humanity and divinity in Christ (as well most Chalcedonian authors in my opinion), but I'm still uncertain as to why he rejects a duality of essence.
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« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2011, 12:07:52 PM »

Nature has the sense of identity and being, not essence.

But Severus quite explicitly rejects even the notion of two "essences" in Christ. Clearly, he expresses the integrity of both humanity and divinity in Christ (as well most Chalcedonian authors in my opinion), but I'm still uncertain as to why he rejects a duality of essence.

It's not that St. Severus rejects two essences in the way you describe it.  It's that he rejects two abstracts, and to him, an essence was merely an abstract, not a concrete existence.  So he believes in the concrete existence of both humanity and divinity in the fullest sense, and he believes that they concretely exist together as one united concrete existence, and that he called the one incarnate nature.
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« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2011, 12:20:27 PM »

I agree entirely with mina, St Severus most definitely does not deny the presence of two ousia in Christ - in the terms you would mean.

Indeed he insists that it is absolutely necessary to a proper Christology that the integrity of humanity and Divinity be preserved in Christ. They are absolutely different, he stresses, but that doesn't mean we divide them into two identities when they are concretely existing in Christ.

He criticises those who want to speak of one essence. It is not at that level that the unity in Christ is to be found.

It is as mina says, in the concrete, that the unity is found, not by eliminating or diminishing the integrity of the humanity concretely existing, but because they form together in union one concrete being who is the Word of God incarnate.

This is why he can even speak about the humanity being hypostatic, which means for him, really concrete (to stick with mina's term).
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« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2011, 08:31:08 PM »

A discussion on Sabellianism was split off and put here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35544.0.html
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