Author Topic: The intinction of the Lamb in the "Gregorian Rite" Mass?  (Read 918 times)

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Offline jordanz

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The intinction of the Lamb in the "Gregorian Rite" Mass?
« on: March 16, 2011, 06:49:01 PM »
Is the consecration of unleavened bread and wine permitted at a "Gregorian Rite" Western Orthodox Mass?  Is the distribution of only a consecrated unleavened Host to the laity permitted?

If not, how would a priest administer the Lamb intincted in the Blood of Christ?  

If a leavened Lamb is intincted in the Blood of Christ, the prayer "Corpus Dómini nostri Jesu Christi custódiat ánimam tuam in vitam æternam" at the administration of Communion would need to be changed.  Would the prayer be modified to read "Corpus et Sanguinis  ...", or is another form used?

 If this has been answered somewhere else, just bounce me there.  Thanks!  
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 06:53:44 PM by jordanz »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The intinction of the Lamb in the "Gregorian Rite" Mass?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2011, 07:17:56 PM »
Is the consecration of unleavened bread and wine permitted at a "Gregorian Rite" Western Orthodox Mass?
no

Quote
Is the distribution of only a consecrated unleavened Host to the laity permitted?
no

Quote
If not, how would a priest administer the Lamb intincted in the Blood of Christ?
From the chalice.  

Quote
If a leavened Lamb is intincted in the Blood of Christ, the prayer "Corpus Dómini nostri Jesu Christi custódiat ánimam tuam in vitam æternam" at the administration of Communion would need to be changed.  Would the prayer be modified to read "Corpus et Sanguinis  ...", or is another form used?
Not necessarily.  particularly if it were it Latin, unless the DL was in Vatican City perhaps.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline jordanz

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Re: The intinction of the Lamb in the "Gregorian Rite" Mass?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2011, 07:54:53 PM »
Is the consecration of unleavened bread and wine permitted at a "Gregorian Rite" Western Orthodox Mass?

no

Okay, that makes sense because of the azyme controversy.  However, I've never understood the Orthodox extreme aversion to the use of unleavened wafers for consecration.  The Lamb symbolism is quite profound.  Even so, I suspect that the real reason why the Orthodox insist on leavened bread for the western rites is merely historical and political.  The Orthodox insistence on leavened bread as the Eucharist species seems to me to be a way to strongly differentiate Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism.  If an Orthodox priest consecrated a wafer, would it not the the body, soul, and divinity of Christ?  I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't be.   

Quote
If a leavened Lamb is intincted in the Blood of Christ, the prayer "Corpus Dómini nostri Jesu Christi custódiat ánimam tuam in vitam æternam" at the administration of Communion would need to be changed.  Would the prayer be modified to read "Corpus et Sanguinis  ...", or is another form used?

Not necessarily.  particularly if it were it Latin, unless the DL was in Vatican City perhaps.

Why is the Roman pronouncement at the Communion insufficient?  And also, why is saying it in Latin problematic?  Or, is it just not the custom to say the prayer in Latin?  Again, I can't see the difference between the Latin prayer and "May the Body (and Blood) of our Lord Jesus Christ preserve your soul unto everlasting life".  The English translations of the prayer are usually quite literal.  Is the general disuse of Latin related to the way in which  the Latin language is very intertwined with Roman Catholic identity?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 07:56:32 PM by jordanz »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The intinction of the Lamb in the "Gregorian Rite" Mass?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2011, 11:37:42 PM »
Is the consecration of unleavened bread and wine permitted at a "Gregorian Rite" Western Orthodox Mass?

no

Okay, that makes sense because of the azyme controversy.  However, I've never understood the Orthodox extreme aversion to the use of unleavened wafers for consecration.


Aversion to judaizing.

The Lamb symbolism is quite profound.  Even so, I suspect that the real reason why the Orthodox insist on leavened bread for the western rites is merely historical and political.

No.


The Orthodox insistence on leavened bread as the Eucharist species seems to me to be a way to strongly differentiate Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism.

Roman used to use leavened bread, and then abadoned it.  We're just sticking to the original way of doing things.

If an Orthodox priest consecrated a wafer, would it not the the body, soul, and divinity of Christ?  I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't be.
 
I think it would, but plenty of Orthodox have no difficulty believing otherwise.  

if a leavened Lamb is intincted in the Blood of Christ, the prayer "Corpus Dómini nostri Jesu Christi custódiat ánimam tuam in vitam æternam" at the administration of Communion would need to be changed.  Would the prayer be modified to read "Corpus et Sanguinis  ...", or is another form used?
Not necessarily.  particularly if it were it Latin, unless the DL was in Vatican City perhaps.

Why is the Roman pronouncement at the Communion insufficient?


I didn't say it was.

And also, why is saying it in Latin problematic?
 
No one speaks it.  Why is it problematic not saying it in Latin?

Or, is it just not the custom to say the prayer in Latin?
 

Not that custom, as far as I have noticed.

Again, I can't see the difference between the Latin prayer and "May the Body (and Blood) of our Lord Jesus Christ preserve your soul unto everlasting life".
  The communicant understands one and doesn't understand the other.

The English translations of the prayer are usually quite literal.  Is the general disuse of Latin related to the way in which  the Latin language is very intertwined with Roman Catholic identity?
Has nothing to do with it.  The Paschal Gospel, for instance, is read in Latin (among others) at every Eastern Orthodox Church I've been to.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Fr. George

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Re: The intinction of the Lamb in the "Gregorian Rite" Mass?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2011, 11:42:48 PM »
If an Orthodox priest consecrated a wafer, would it not the the body, soul, and divinity of Christ?  I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't be.

I think it would, but plenty of Orthodox have no difficulty believing otherwise.   

I cannot speculate as to whether or not it would be; but that man wouldn't be a priest for much longer.

The English translations of the prayer are usually quite literal.  Is the general disuse of Latin related to the way in which  the Latin language is very intertwined with Roman Catholic identity? 
Has nothing to do with it.  The Paschal Gospel, for instance, is read in Latin (among others) at every Eastern Orthodox Church I've been to.

I've read the Latin gospel at every Agape Vespers beginning in 1996 save twice when others read it (who were more proficient in Latin than I).  And yes, I use classical (rather than ecclesiastical) pronunciation when I read it.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 11:45:48 PM by Fr. George »
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Offline jordanz

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Re: The intinction of the Lamb in the "Gregorian Rite" Mass?
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2011, 02:31:25 AM »
Aversion to judaizing.

The Lamb symbolism is quite profound.  Even so, I suspect that the real reason why the Orthodox insist on leavened bread for the western rites is merely historical and political.

Okay, I will read up on this when I have time.  All quite interesting.  I though that "judaizing" (not really fond of this title because of its anti-semitic valences, but it is the historical term) was a political issue as well as a theological issue.  Put this on my 400,000 things to read up on list.  

The Orthodox insistence on leavened bread as the Eucharist species seems to me to be a way to strongly differentiate Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism.

Roman used to use leavened bread, and then abadoned it.  We're just sticking to the original way of doing things.

I've always been a bit skeptical about this point.  Nevertheless, I'll take your word for it and again, do some more reading on this.  Hopefully there is a bibliography out there that focuses specifically on these questions.

Why is the Roman pronouncement at the Communion insufficient?


I didn't say it was.

Quite right.  I apologize for that assertion.

And also, why is saying it in Latin problematic?
 

No one speaks it.

minime utinam ad familiares latine dicam. silicet, linguam latinam XVI annos studii prout usque anno domini MCMLXV magistres seminario ecclesiae Romae latine duxit.

No one speaks it, but it sure is fun writing it anyway :-)

There's no problem saying any prayer in English when it easy to make a clear translation.    

Again, I can't see the difference between the Latin prayer and "May the Body (and Blood) of our Lord Jesus Christ preserve your soul unto everlasting life".
 

The communicant understands one and doesn't understand the other.

We Romans have never taught that a person's intellectual comprehension of a prayer is necessary for it to impart meaning.  Is that not the case generally among Orthodox?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 02:34:01 AM by jordanz »