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Author Topic: What's Your Faith?  (Read 9780 times) Average Rating: 0
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Andreas
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« on: May 16, 2004, 02:12:26 AM »

I notice that this board has lots of people of different religions, and jurisdictions. So just for fun I thought I would make a poll. Wink
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« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2004, 02:21:40 AM »

I voted ROCOR, but strongly feel that I should have also been able to vote Eastern ORthodox as that is what ROCOR is, no more no less.  the ROCOR is generally recognized as a canonical church.

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« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2004, 02:24:18 AM »

I know, but you're among brothers. If this one on non-Orthodox site than of course you should just vote Eastern Orthodox. But since this in an Orthodox site, I felt it would be better to know the little details. Wink
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« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2004, 02:24:38 AM »

I notice that this board has lots of people of different religions, and jurisdictions. So just for fun I thought I would make a poll. Wink

"ROCOR and Churches of that nature" as a different category from Eastern Orthodoxy. Hmm....
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« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2004, 02:25:19 AM »

I know, but you're among brothers. If this one on non-Orthodox site than of course you should just vote Eastern Orthodox. But since this in an Orthodox site, I felt it would be better to know the little details. Wink

So I'd be lumped in with someone who votes HOCNA or Milan Synod, huh?  Wink
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« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2004, 02:26:13 AM »

Sorry. Cheesy
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« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2004, 02:28:00 AM »

so why not ask if soemone is OCA, GOA etc.?

When you say "ROCOR and other such churches"  it is probable that groups such as HOCNA, GOC, and R**C will count themselves among that group and I certainly don't like being counted with them.

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« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2004, 02:30:27 AM »

sorry Peter brought that up before I did.  Sorry for the double bringing up of the issue.

Joe Zollars
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Ben
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« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2004, 02:31:08 AM »

Joe why did you vote ROCOR? Aren't you still a catechumen?
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« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2004, 02:31:10 AM »

Don't blame, blame http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/ I tell you it was them that made me think like this.  Shocked
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« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2004, 02:36:09 AM »

yes Ben but I am a Catechumen in ROCOR and will be Baptized in ROCOR.  My ROCOR affiliation is very much well known as well.  Also, there was no option given for "Catechumens" or "those preparing to switch."

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2004, 02:40:30 AM »

the online representation, particularly at places like the cafe, are hardly representative in my experience of the feelings of members of ROCOR  or of Orthodoxy for that matter.  Such places are places of extremism, not of Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2004, 02:45:07 AM »

also where are the AWRV supposed to vote?

sorry to keep attackign your poll, just curious.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2004, 02:45:53 AM »

the online representation, particularly at places like the cafe, are hardly representative in my experience of the feelings of members of ROCOR  or of Orthodoxy for that matter.  Such places are places of extremism, not of Orthodoxy.

Joe Zollars

But a lot of the folks there are ROCOR. For example, most ROCOR sites I check out are more extreme than any other Orthodox Church sites. And many seem to distance themself from other Orthodox Churches. Hence why they got their own spot on my poll. Smiley With that said, I wish I knew of an English speaking ROCOR Church close to me. I would be there in a second!
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« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2004, 02:47:34 AM »

also where are the AWRV supposed to vote?

sorry to keep attackign your poll, just curious.

Joe Zollars

NP. Tongue

Sorry, but I really don't even know what they are?
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« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2004, 02:48:41 AM »

thus the problem with internet in general.  yes ROCOR can be said to be more traditional than other Juris.  But the internet draws out all sorts of crazies, in all groups including ROCOR.  

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« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2004, 02:49:56 AM »

thus the problem with internet in general.  yes ROCOR can be said to be more traditional than other Juris.  But the internet draws out all sorts of crazies, in all groups including ROCOR.  

JoeZollars

I guess. Cheesy
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« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2004, 02:50:02 AM »

AWRV=Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate (http://www.westernorthodox.com).

They are under the Antiochians but can't rightly be described as Eastern Orthodox.

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« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2004, 02:52:31 AM »

AWRV=Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate (http://www.westernorthodox.com).

They are under the Antiochians but can't rightly be described as Eastern Orthodox.

Joe Zollars

I guess they will have to check other in my poll. I can't say I have really ever given them much thought. Embarrassed
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« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2004, 03:04:15 AM »

that's ok. I was just wondering. there probably aren't any who post here, or if they do they don't post very often.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2004, 03:10:44 AM »

AWRV=Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate (http://www.westernorthodox.com).

They are under the Antiochians but can't rightly be described as Eastern Orthodox.

Joe Zollars

Well, if they can rightly be described as Eastern Orthodox, then there would be no need to include "AWRV" in the poll, they would have just voted Eastern Orthodox.
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« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2004, 03:18:18 AM »

umm reread my post.  I said they "can't" be rightly described as *eastern* ORthodox.

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« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2004, 09:00:01 AM »

thus the problem with internet in general.  yes ROCOR can be said to be more traditional than other Juris.  But the internet draws out all sorts of crazies, in all groups including ROCOR.  

JoeZollars

So true, Joe. Wink
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« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2004, 09:02:15 AM »

Hey, look at all of us folk. Smiley
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« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2004, 09:14:27 AM »

AWRV=Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate (http://www.westernorthodox.com).

They are under the Antiochians but can't rightly be described as Eastern Orthodox.

Joe Zollars

So you have your UNIA also.
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« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2004, 09:14:53 AM »

Quote
I was just wondering. there probably aren't any [AWRV folks] who post here, or if they do they don't post very often.

I actually am a member of St Barbara's OCA mission here in Ft. Worth, but am somewhat regularly involved w/St. Peter's, the AWRV church just a few miles away.  You're right; they'd probably want a "Western Orthodox" category.
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« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2004, 09:15:25 AM »

thus the problem with internet in general.  yes ROCOR can be said to be more traditional than other Juris.  But the internet draws out all sorts of crazies, in all groups including ROCOR.  

JoeZollars

You don't say. Smiley

Why do most orthodox don't like Rocor?
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« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2004, 09:16:25 AM »

I actually am a member of St Barbara's OCA mission here in Ft. Worth, but am somewhat regularly involved w/St. Peter's, the AWRV church just a few miles away.  You're right; they'd probably want a "Western Orthodox" category.

May I ask... How in the world did you end up orthodox?
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« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2004, 11:23:24 AM »

the online representation, particularly at places like the cafe, are hardly representative in my experience of the feelings of members of ROCOR  or of Orthodoxy for that matter.  Such places are places of extremism, not of Orthodoxy.

That is true. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they are wrong simply because they are traditionalists. I mean, lately this board has embraced ecumenism at a level that I sometime feel goes too far.

Let's face the truth; Liberalism is not a part of Orthodoxy. It is simply a consequence of our weakness and selfishness.

We need places like the cafe to sometimes remind us of how Orthodoxy was/is traditionally practiced.

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« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2004, 11:31:54 AM »

That is true. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they are wrong simply because they are traditionalists. I mean, lately this board has embraced ecumenism at a level that I sometime feel goes too far.

Let's face the truth; Liberalism is not a part of Orthodoxy. It is simply a consequence of our weakness and selfishness.

We need places like the cafe to sometimes remind us of how Orthodoxy was/is traditionally practiced.



why should or orthodoxy or catholicism be hijack by  elements that are contrary to christ.
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TomS
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« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2004, 11:49:17 AM »

why should or orthodoxy or catholicism be hijack by  elements that are contrary to christ.

If you are saying that the cafe promotes things that are contrary to the Church, then I think that you neeed to go read more of the history. It is not one of liberalism.

That being said, I am not saying that some posters at the cafe are not judgemental or unforgiving of others weaknesses, they are. But that is the weakness of the specific poster -- not the board.
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« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2004, 12:32:55 PM »

Where has this forum embraced ecumenism?

If you mean that it is acting as it describes itself - as a discussion forum - then it seems to me that discussion is taking place. Sometimes. That's all. If you could find some aspect of my/your Christology which is different to yours/mine and that we were skating over then that would false ecumenism. But talking isn't false ecumenism.
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« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2004, 12:42:04 PM »

If you are saying that the cafe promotes things that are contrary to the Church, then I think that you neeed to go read more of the history. It is not one of liberalism.

That being said, I am not saying that some posters at the cafe are not judgemental or unforgiving of others weaknesses, they are. But that is the weakness of the specific poster -- not the board.

there are those that are extremist and dangerous. They are within orthodoxy and catholicism.
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« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2004, 12:43:26 PM »

Where has this forum embraced ecumenism?

If you mean that it is acting as it describes itself - as a discussion forum - then it seems to me that discussion is taking place. Sometimes. That's all. If you could find some aspect of my/your Christology which is different to yours/mine and that we were skating over then that would false ecumenism. But talking isn't false ecumenism.

that is a form of extremism. talking is consider dangerous.
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« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2004, 12:48:49 PM »

Are you joking?
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« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2004, 12:51:42 PM »

Are you joking?

Is this addressed to me?

Let me explain if it is:   Extremist believe that any form of dialouge is dangerous.

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« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2004, 01:10:02 PM »

I know extremists think that, but your post came over as saying that it was indeed extremist to talk in your opinion?

Or are you an extremist? Smiley
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« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2004, 01:17:49 PM »

I know extremists think that, but your post came over as saying that it was indeed extremist to talk in your opinion?

Or are you an extremist? Smiley

I know... it is my english. I am not a native speaker. I am learning english.

I agree with everything you said in respect to extremism.
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« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2004, 01:22:04 PM »

Your English is coming on very well. Congratulations.

What is your native language?

Peter
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« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2004, 01:32:35 PM »

Tom, I agree we need a place to see Orthodoxy in its "pure" or "traditional" form.  We do have such places. They are called Monastaries.  The internet is not a good place to learn about Orthodoxy, particularly places like the Cafe which put forth a schismatic agenda.  I cannot begin to ennumerate the people who have been driven away from Orthodoxy by the doctrine of hate espoused by such people.  

You know me.  YOu know I would sooner die than be on the new calander and stalwartly refuse to attend services in any church with pews, etc.  But a line has to be drawn somewhere.  How many of hte mods at the Cafe are Orthodox?  to my knowledge only one, and even that is douptful.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2004, 01:38:46 PM »

So you have your UNIA also.

well it is nothing like the unia of the Roman Church.  These folks are almost all former Anglicans and Vagantes who have converted.  They came about after the ECUSA started ordaining women.  A nice site to get some background on the AWRV is http://www.westernorthodox.com

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2004, 01:40:22 PM »

You don't say. Smiley

Why do most orthodox don't like Rocor?

what do you mean by this?

I have never met any Orthodox person that didn't like ROCOR or would deny that ROCOR is Orthodox.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2004, 01:46:08 PM »

Well I like ROCOR if my opinion matters, and my best priest friend is a ROCOR priest.

But I have come across plenty of folk over the last 10 years or so who don't like ROCOR and even deny that it is Orthodox.

Sad but true.

Peter
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« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2004, 01:48:35 PM »

Tom, I agree we need a place to see Orthodoxy in its "pure" or "traditional" form.  We do have such places. They are called Monastaries.  The internet is not a good place to learn about Orthodoxy....

I agree with you. As I said in my post, I am not defending any specific posters over at the cafe.

I guess I am assuming that those who visit internet boards do not just rely on one site for their knowledge. And also realize that the opinions espoused are personal, and therefore tainted by the ignorance of the specific individual.

The key is to not let someone else (who is just as much a sinner as you) define you. Only God's judgement matters.
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« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2004, 02:38:21 PM »

well it is nothing like the unia of the Roman Church.  These folks are almost all former Anglicans and Vagantes who have converted.  They came about after the ECUSA started ordaining women.  A nice site to get some background on the AWRV is http://www.westernorthodox.com

Joe Zollars

I have read the site and it is a way to get western christians into orthodoxy. making palatable for them ( westerns) by letting them keep the common prayer book plus some orthodox additions. keep reading the site.

and you say that there is no double standard. it is crystal clear.
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« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2004, 02:39:18 PM »

Well I like ROCOR if my opinion matters, and my best priest friend is a ROCOR priest.

But I have come across plenty of folk over the last 10 years or so who don't like ROCOR and even deny that it is Orthodox.

Sad but true.

Peter

That has been my expereince, too. I also came across people who denied that OCA was orthodox.
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« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2004, 10:57:52 PM »

I have read the site and it is a way to get western christians into orthodoxy. making palatable for them ( westerns) by letting them keep the common prayer book plus some orthodox additions. keep reading the site.

and you say that there is no double standard. it is crystal clear.


that is a gross simplification, but also it is entirely different circumstances than the unia of the roman chruch.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2004, 02:17:29 AM »

I have read the site and it is a way to get western christians into orthodoxy. making palatable for them ( westerns) by letting them keep the common prayer book plus some orthodox additions. keep reading the site.

and you say that there is no double standard. it is crystal clear.

 Huh
RB, they are not pretending to be Anglican.
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« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2004, 02:55:07 AM »

Prodomos bringsup a good point.  Not once do these people claim to Anglicans or "Anglicans in communion with Antioch."
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« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2004, 02:58:58 AM »

dear all:

Upon rereading my earlier posts, it occurs to me that I may have come off a bit harsh with regards to the Euphrosynos Cafe.  I was mearly reacting to those who feel it represents the opinions of the average ROCOR member or of the Orthodox Traditionalists (in the Orthodox Church) in general.

I apologize as I did not mean to come off so harsh.  When I used to participate on that forum they taught me to love many things within Orthodoxy and one of the key individuals there was extremely instrumental in my conversion.  Thus, my posts were not meant to be so harsh, but I can see where they could be interpreted that way.

Sincerely,
Joe Zollars
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« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2004, 07:09:54 AM »

Huh
RB, they are not pretending to be Anglican.

No they just call it the western rite will the book of common prayer. why do you think many think that it is not really orthodox.

Show me in the orthodox tration where they used the english book of common prayer.

The site has alot of information.

The only difference bewteen your unia and ours is that we don't required ours to abandon their traditions while you guys have forced them to accept some of yours while maintiain some of their.

Their purpose as said by the site is to get westerners to join the east.
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« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2004, 10:05:55 AM »

RomanByzantium,

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Why do most orthodox don't like Rocor?

For quite a while (decades), particularly after the "lifting of anathemas" in 1965 by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, ROCOR had decidedly distanced itself from what most consider to be "mainstream" or "official" Orthodoxy.  They were in communion with the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church) of Greece, aka. "Old Calendarists", and even had tried to broker a re-union between them and the so called "Matthewites" (who had separated from the "Florinite" Old Calendarists decades earlier.)   While it is much debated, at best the only other parties ROCOR was in communion with for those years (though, I have to say again, you'll get different answers on this both from those in ROCOR and the parties I'm about to mention) were the Serbian Orthodox Church and the Jerusalem Patriarchate.

Because of this former posture of ROCOR, they were not well liked by ecumenistic/modernist churches.  Obviously, they were also thoroughly condemned by the Moscow Patriarchate, for these and many other reasons as well.

However this is changing fast, as the ROCOR itself has been changing fast in recent years.  Thus, it's becoming very rare to find people in "world Orthodoxy" describing ROCOR the way they might have 10+ years ago (though you'll still get a few cranks describing ROCOR as being "semi canonical", whatever this means.)  Generally, the rancor ROCOR used to receive is now reserved for all of it's "hardliners" who for the most part have been pushed out of the ROCOR (ROAC and ROCiE come to mind.)

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« Reply #52 on: May 17, 2004, 10:31:04 AM »

Tom,

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That is true. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they are wrong simply because they are traditionalists. I mean, lately this board has embraced ecumenism at a level that I sometime feel goes too far.

As far as I'm concerned (whatever that is worth), the biggest crime of the nasty "extremists" (beyond the normal human failings they share with humanity in general - including New Calendarists (NC) and those in communion with them) is their desire to be Orthodox, with no ideological hyphenation.

I think NC's should ask themselves just why it is these pesky folks will have little to do with them.  Do they (NC's) recognize some difference of faith between themselves and the Old Calendarists (OC's)?  If their answer is "yes", then there is a problem which can only be resolved by accusing the OC's of heresy - yet I've never seen this (which is telling in itself, given how much ink has been spilled denouncing the OC's...not to mention in some cases, the blood.)   However if these NC's really do not recognize a difference in faith, then why the separation?  Did a bunch of cranks just get up one morning and decide "hey, we don't like you anymore" and walk away, taking their bag of marbles with them?  That's the impression I think some might get, given the dismissive tone of many OC critics.

The truth is, the OC's are separated from the NC's because the former have violated the liturgical unity of the Church; and not simply on the basis that this was a "bad thing", but on the basis of previously existing canons prohibiting such a move.  The problem is doubly terrible, given the express purpose of this calendar change (ecumenism - and yes, that "bad kind" of ecumenism...one need only read the Patriarchal Encyclical of the EP upon proposing the NC, to see it is steeped in ecclessiological falsehood.)  Of course, the decades which were to follow only made the problem worse (perhaps it could be described as the further "flowering" of a bad seed...one of the lowest points being in 1965, when the Ecumenical Patriarchate "lifted" the Church's anathemas against Papism.)

If Orthodoxy is the religion that historically considered a violent end preferable to consenting to a "pinch of incence",  then it is hard to imagine how the above do not constitute valid reasons for heirarchs to withdraw from the communion of the ecumenists, or those who humour them.

I think a big problem today is that we are all somewhat cynical towards God and religion in general.  We've all been affected in subtle ways by secular attitudes, which tend to relativize anything.  We're certainly not in the headspace to naturally empathize with the Holy Martyrs.  I mean really...it's only a stupid pinch of incence!  A pinch of incence to some ridiculous statue we don't really believe in anyway.  Is not living a relatively peaceful, long life, not worth a little tolerance, not so much stricture and integrism?

There's a lot in the Fathers which is hard to hear, just as there is a lot in the sayings of our Lord Jesus Christ, which if taken seriously are hard to hear - if only because they're so damning.  Given how terribly we fall short, how cowardly and shifty we are when push comes to shove, there are really only two basic reactions...

- justify one's self, seek to change or belittle the rules
- admit you fall terribly short, confess the propriety of the rules, and hope you will be justified by God.

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« Reply #53 on: May 17, 2004, 10:45:41 AM »

Mor thought that ROCOR was completely wacked out until he started talking to people like me & Bethany.  ;-)  Amazing to think that most "hardline ROCOR who were pushed in ROAC & ROCiE" (funny, I don't remember anyone pushing anyone, they pretty much hopped & skipped their ways into those new jurisdicitions) weren't/aren't cradleborn Orthos.
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« Reply #54 on: May 17, 2004, 11:11:18 AM »

We're certainly not in the headspace to naturally empathize with the Holy Martyrs.  I mean really...it's only a stupid pinch of incence!  A pinch of incence to some ridiculous statue we don't really believe in anyway.  Is not living a relatively peaceful, long life, not worth a little tolerance, not so much stricture and integrism?

I don't think I agree with this Seraphim, though I am part of a very Traditionalist jurisdiction and take it seriously. But my own Church has not ceased to have her martyrs. Every year. And I am sure this is the case in other jurisdictions. They could play a quiet game with those who hate them, but even this year when one of the ancient monasteries was about ot be pulled down crowds of Orthodox faithful flocked onto the streets shouting - not 'we will kill you for this' - but 'we are willing to lay down our lives and give our blood to protect this holy place'.

They could all have stayed at home. They know that they are liable to be killed for their faith.

Surely I wish I had their faith, but don't deny it to those who still face persecution and even martyrdom day by day.

On another thread I have asked for prayer for a convert who is in Saudi Arabia. He also knows the cost and has not drawn back from facing it.

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« Reply #55 on: May 17, 2004, 12:59:43 PM »

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many of hte mods at the Cafe are Orthodox?  

IMO, both are Orthodox Smiley
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« Reply #56 on: May 17, 2004, 01:02:52 PM »

that is your opinion and you are welcome to it, but IMO neither are Orthodox because they are in non-Orthodox juris.

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« Reply #57 on: May 17, 2004, 01:41:22 PM »

OrthodoxyOrDeath is GOC. So tell me, since ROCOR was in communion with the GOC (and actually was responsible for there even being a GOC)... at what point did the GOC become non-Orthodox? In what year did the GOC change their views or practices? Smiley And when did ROCOR say that they were non-Orthodox and therefore had to break from them? The ROCOR priest who I asked advice from (who is pro-MP-union, btw) said that he thought the GOC had grace. Perhaps he should be informed that the GOC doesn't have grace after all? Wink

(I'll leave ROAC out of it, as that could get really nasty)

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« Reply #58 on: May 17, 2004, 02:07:33 PM »

This is surprizing to me that the Orthodox would be arguing who is in communion with who, I thought that it was one Orthodox body, but it is resembling a fragmented RC body.

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« Reply #59 on: May 17, 2004, 02:25:59 PM »

Mor thought that ROCOR was completely wacked out until he started talking to people like me & Bethany.  ;-)

Yeah, now I know who is really completely wacked out, and it's not ROCOR.  Wink
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« Reply #60 on: May 17, 2004, 02:40:46 PM »


The only difference bewteen your unia and ours is that we don't required ours to abandon their traditions while you guys have forced them to accept some of yours while maintiain some of their.


Huh?  When as a part of the Western Rite did the Orthodox Church ever assume one single parish that belonged to a Roman Catholic diocese, never mind an entire RC Diocese, as was the case in reverse with respect to the Unias?  The Western Rite consists of formerly protestant, mainly High Anglican, parishes, not Catholic ones.  By contrast the Byzantine Eastern Rite consists of entire dioceses that were Orthodox immediately prior to being assumed into Catholicism.  Yes, they are comprised of Western Christians, but these are not parishes that came from Catholicism into Orthodoxy.  If the Orthodox Church had assumed masses of parishes and Dioceses from Catholicism into Orthodoxy, then THAT would be like the Unias ... but of course, that has never happened.  Smiley
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« Reply #61 on: May 17, 2004, 02:51:41 PM »

This is surprizing to me that the Orthodox would be arguing who is in communion with who, I thought that it was one Orthodox body, but it is resembling a fragmented RC body.

Learn something everday, nobody on earth is perfect.

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A fragmented RC body.what!!!  Is this suppose to be a joke?

 We are extremely/highly organized. All catholic churches are in communion.
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« Reply #62 on: May 17, 2004, 03:34:20 PM »

C'mon RB,

Being a RC myself, the Church may appear to be organized, but so was the military in Iraq. If it was that highly & extremely organized how did them pedophiles get in. The Church is fragmented on Liturgy, altar girls, abortion etc etc.

You can be organized & still disfunctional.

james, wandering & talking in the Mojave desert

Give me a break.
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« Reply #63 on: May 17, 2004, 04:36:34 PM »

C'mon RB,

Being a RC myself, the Church may appear to be organized, but so was the military in Iraq. If it was that highly & extremely organized how did them pedophiles get in. The Church is fragmented on Liturgy, altar girls, abortion etc etc.

You can be organized & still disfunctional.

james, wandering & talking in the Mojave desert

Give me a break.


show me one catholic church breaking communion with another church. show me one church bickering with another church. or threatening to excommunicate or go into schism. This is a church that is not organized. or a church that some are in communion and others are not.

You are sounding like a  protestant.  what is it with your ex catholics? You know exactly where the church stands on abortion,divorce, homosexuality, atar girls, liturgy, etc, etc, etc.

There is no confusion ,just priests that are disobedient and do not want to follow what the church teaches. If you did not know it this is the " Modernism Heresy"

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« Reply #64 on: May 17, 2004, 05:19:29 PM »

OrthodoxyOrDeath is GOC. So tell me, since ROCOR was in communion with the GOC (and actually was responsible for there even being a GOC)... at what point did the GOC become non-Orthodox? In what year did the GOC change their views or practices? Smiley And when did ROCOR say that they were non-Orthodox and therefore had to break from them? The ROCOR priest who I asked advice from (who is pro-MP-union, btw) said that he thought the GOC had grace. Perhaps he should be informed that the GOC doesn't have grace after all? Wink

(I'll leave ROAC out of it, as that could get really nasty)



What I say regarding teh GOC and other such groups is merely my opinion as ROCOR has no official position on them and many do think they are Orthodox.  I do not think they are Orthodox because they broke with ROCOR and are not in communion with the Orthodox Church.  Honestly my opinions with regards to the GOC are not well  formed as I don't know much about them, however I would say that they are not Orthodox because they are not in the Orthodox Church.  A pro-MP/ROCOR reunion Priest approves of hte GOC? umm shouldn't that be your first clue. Wink

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« Reply #65 on: May 17, 2004, 05:22:52 PM »

RB etc. the GOC and ROAC and other such groups can be thought of in a very crude way as being similar to groups such as the SSPV and CMRI within the Catholci Church.

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« Reply #66 on: May 17, 2004, 05:24:03 PM »

umm James is nto an excatholic to my knowledge.  Learn before you point fingers please.

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« Reply #67 on: May 17, 2004, 05:56:41 PM »

RB,

Be careful before pointing thy finger, I'm a cradle 52 year young RC, but I don't wear blinders.

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« Reply #68 on: May 18, 2004, 11:45:09 AM »

Joe,

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I do not think they are Orthodox because they broke with ROCOR and are not in communion with the Orthodox Church.

Last I checked, it was ROCOR who went ahead and entered into communion with a party considered schismatic and ecclessiologically heretical by the GOC, not the GOC sending a letter to ROCOR saying "hey, we have no use for you anymore" or something like this.

By "not in communion with the Orthodox Church", do you mean the EP?


Patriarchal Cathedral of St.George - Constantinople (December7,1965) - The 'Lifting' of the Anathemas of the Orthodox Church against Papism - Athenagoras announces the 'lifting', co-enthroned with Cardinal Lawrence Shenan

Quote
RB etc. the GOC and ROAC and other such groups can be thought of in a very crude way as being similar to groups such as the SSPV and CMRI within the Catholci Church.

How so?  Not disagreeing or agreeing at this point, just wondering why you think this is the case.

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« Reply #69 on: May 18, 2004, 01:14:50 PM »

Joe,

I did want to apologize for the "maybe the priest should be informed" remark. That was a stupid thing to say; little better than ad hominem.
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« Reply #70 on: May 18, 2004, 01:18:01 PM »


Patriarchal Cathedral of St.George - Constantinople (December7,1965) - The 'Lifting' of the Anathemas of the Orthodox Church against Papism - Athenagoras announces the 'lifting', co-enthroned with Cardinal Lawrence ShenanHow so?  Not disagreeing or agreeing at this point, just wondering why you think this is the case.

A SAD day for Orthodoxy indeed!
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« Reply #71 on: May 18, 2004, 01:28:44 PM »

Certainly is sad, but not as sad as the Council of Florence! Still, the Church recovered from that.
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« Reply #72 on: May 18, 2004, 05:36:18 PM »

I have read the site and it is a way to get western christians into orthodoxy. making palatable for them ( westerns) by letting them keep the common prayer book plus some orthodox additions. keep reading the site.

and you say that there is no double standard. it is crystal clear.


To my surprise, I have to agree with Romanbyzantium on this.  It seems to me that differences in Western and Eastern liturgical forms cannot be dissociated from the differences in theological and philosophical orientation that led, in the case of the Western Church, to the eventual schism.

It seems to me that becoming Orthodox (a process on which I pray I am still embarked) involves more than just embracing certain doctrines and dogma, and rejecting certain others.  To do that, but keep the same liturgy, it seems to me, is to underestimate the degree to which spiritual formation is bound up with the ethos of the Church, and the degree to which the latter is indissolubly bound up with liturgical forms.

The authentic liturgies of an Orthodox West have not been, and probably cannot be, reconstructed.  To be Orthodox is to embrace a traditional approach to faith and life.  And, traditions cannot be "reconstructed."

On the subject of Orthodox double standards:  Reaction against the Unia often seems to go hand in hand with complaints about "proscelytism."  Often folks try to define the latter as dishonest, coercive measures to produce conversions, but how much of that is really being done among Christians nowadays?  The complaint seems to boil down to being against everyone else trying to convert folks from our Church to their denomination.  Well, if they really believe they embody the Church, why wouldn't they?  And, shouldn't we?

Our local Orthodox Christian Missions board sponsors a missionary Church in a demographically Hispanic part of town, offering Spanish-language Orthodox services, in the hopes of winning the unchurched to Orthdoxy, yes (but, come on, how many Hispanics do not have some kind of Roman Catholic family/cultural background?), but also in the hopes of producing conversions among those disaffected with, or alienated from, Roman Catholicism.  Should the Orthodox regard this as a bad thing?  I don't think so.

I say:  "Yes!" to proscelytism (excluding coercive or dishonest tactics, to be sure); "no!" to the Unia of either the RC or Orthodox varieties.
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« Reply #73 on: May 18, 2004, 10:32:39 PM »

To my surprise, I have to agree with Romanbyzantium on this.  It seems to me that differences in Western and Eastern liturgical forms cannot be dissociated from the differences in theological and philosophical orientation that led, in the case of the Western Church, to the eventual schism.

What liturgical differences do you see as having been a cause of the schism?  And if this is the case, then how far away from schism would we have been from those in Alexandria or Britain, both regions with wildly different liturgies than that of the "Imperial City"?  It's very interesting to me that, in spite of her very different liturgical life, Rome remained solidly Orthodox for centuries while one eastern patriarch after another was falling into heresy.  This liturgy is what the modern day AWRV liturgies are closely based upon (though I would prefer seeing a more Sarum-Rite-based liturgy prevail in the "BCPWR" parishes, as it's the true Orthodox English expression, instead of the Anglo-Catholic thing that's going on now).

Quote
To be Orthodox is to embrace a traditional approach to faith and life.  And, traditions cannot be "reconstructed."

True; I respect the point that traditions are seen as dynamic growth over time.  Traditions can, however, also apparently be merged and modified.  Surely no one would deny the historical schmorgasbord that is every liturgy out there; I would think that such rearranging and appropriating of Eastern liturgy into western (and vice versa) would have given rise to outrage among the fathers whose liturgies were changed, with cries of "they are changing our very belief!" or something like it, emerging.  Rather, I would contend that "unity in diversity" should once again prevail in the Church, with constant dialogue maintained to preserve doctrinal unity.  Not the path of least resistance, to be sure, but one that seems to most reflect the Church's capacity for catholicity.
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« Reply #74 on: May 19, 2004, 01:44:46 AM »

Seraphim, no I do not mean necessarily the EP.  I mean the ORthodox Church in General, not just the EP.  One has to be in communion wiht a Canonical Orthodox Church, not just off doing their own thing.

As for the ROAC/GOC and SSPV/CMRI remark, I said that because amazingly they are very close in their eccleisiologies.   They are more traditional than tradition and are willing to break communion because of it and feel they are the last Orthodox/Catholics on earth (whether they say this openly doesn't really matter--that is how their ecclesiology works).

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« Reply #75 on: May 19, 2004, 10:33:40 AM »

That is true. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they are wrong simply because they are traditionalists. I mean, lately this board has embraced ecumenism at a level that I sometime feel goes too far.

Let's face the truth; Liberalism is not a part of Orthodoxy. It is simply a consequence of our weakness and selfishness.

We need places like the cafe to sometimes remind us of how Orthodoxy was/is traditionally practiced.



I agree completely.
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« Reply #76 on: July 21, 2004, 04:26:18 PM »

Currently an Episcopalian exploring Orthodoxy via the OCA
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« Reply #77 on: July 21, 2004, 05:33:11 PM »

Truly idiotic to separate "ROCOR" from "Eastern Orthodox".  What are they, then?  "Northern Orthodox" --  owing to the latitude of Russia?!

And who, then, are the mysterious "of that nature" people?  

I surmise that the intent is "SCOBATES" vs. "non-SCOBATES".  If so, then how truly childish. . .
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« Reply #78 on: July 21, 2004, 07:43:06 PM »

Why didn't anyone report this post before? We do have the ability to change polls you know.
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« Reply #79 on: July 21, 2004, 07:45:26 PM »

There, I took out a separate option for ROCOR.

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« Reply #80 on: July 22, 2004, 03:57:53 AM »

Truly idiotic to separate "ROCOR" from "Eastern Orthodox".  What are they, then?  "Northern Orthodox" --  owing to the latitude of Russia?!

And who, then, are the mysterious "of that nature" people?  

I surmise that the intent is "SCOBATES" vs. "non-SCOBATES".  If so, then how truly childish. . .

How Christian of you.......
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« Reply #81 on: July 22, 2004, 09:10:29 AM »

Exactly so.  'Twas intended to be "Christian."  Orthodox is Orthodox is Orthodox. . .  It's the name-calling and worthless hostilities among Orthodox groups that I reject.  "SCOBATES" and "non-SCOBATES" are Orthodox Christians.  I never see ROCOR separated from other Orthodox groups unless the separator is playing the broken "canonical drum."
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« Reply #82 on: July 22, 2004, 10:29:21 AM »

Exactly so.  'Twas intended to be "Christian."  Orthodox is Orthodox is Orthodox. . .  It's the name-calling and worthless hostilities among Orthodox groups that I reject.  "SCOBATES" and "non-SCOBATES" are Orthodox Christians.  I never see ROCOR separated from other Orthodox groups unless the separator is playing the broken "canonical drum."    



Next time I'll put World Orthodoxy, and Traditional Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2004, 10:29:44 AM by Andreas » Logged

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