Author Topic: Who were these people?  (Read 7418 times)

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Offline Ben

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Who were these people?
« on: May 15, 2004, 06:31:43 PM »
Whenever I can I attend a GOA Cathedral -  Assumption Cathedral in Denver, CO.- anywho, every time I am there I see a this group of people, and I have a feeling that they are not Greek Orthodox.

The men and women only wear white, and they have several crosses either written or tatooed on their forehead. They take off their shoes when they enter the Cathedral, and before sitting down they make postrations (even during paschaltide) and bow to each other. They also make the sign of the cross the Catholic way - left to right-  rather than the Eastern Orthodox way - right to left- and only with two fingers, rather than two and the thumb. They do go up for communion and the priest always smiles and administers it to them.

Now I am wondering, who were these people? The last time I went to the Cathedral, I didn't see any of them, but I have every other time I have been there for Divine Liturgy. Considering their ethnicity, I assumed they were Ethiopian Orthodox, but I wasn't sure, so I thought I'd ask here.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2004, 06:37:40 PM by Ben »
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2004, 07:32:32 PM »
Judging by the clothing and the customs you describe, it sounds like these folks are Ethiopian Orthodox or Eritrean Orthodox.  Their liturgies, etc., are identical, but the Eritrean Church was declared autonomous after the war.

They do go up for communion and the priest always smiles and administers it to them.
 ;D
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

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Offline Ben

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2004, 07:40:23 PM »
Whats interesting though is that there is a Coptic parish in Denver. Why would they go to the GOA Cathedral, and not the Coptic parish?
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2004, 08:01:42 PM »
Perhaps they are unaware of its existence?  We have several Ethiopians and Eritreans at my Church.  An Eritrean Archbishop even celebrates the Liturgy when he is in town.  If you ask them, I'd be interested to know their reply.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline TomS

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2004, 08:08:22 PM »
Whats interesting though is that there is a Coptic parish in Denver. Why would they go to the GOA Cathedral, and not the Coptic parish?

Because whenever possible, I guess they want to experiance the ORIGINAL True Faith.   ;D

Offline Ben

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2004, 08:09:58 PM »
Whats funny is that I think the Greeks there are just as confused as me...

At the Cathedral there is this elderly greek woman, she speaks absolutely no English, never sits at all, makes the sign of the cross every 5 seconds, always wears head coverings, and stands in prayer rather than listening to the sermon. Well one sunday, one of these Ethiopian Orthodox women was bowing, making postrations, etc. But she was making the cross, as I described, the Roman Catholic way. The elderly Greek woman was very confused and quite upset. She tapped the woman on the shoulder, and showed her how to make the sign of the cross the EO way. The Ethiopian woman didn't pay attention, this angered the greek woman, and she began to speak to the Ethiopian woman in a very stern tone in greek. The poor Ethiopian woman didn't seem to know greek and continued to ignore the elderly greek woman. The Greek woman became louder and louder and even grabbed the Ethiopian woman's hand and had her make the sign of the cross the "correct" way. Eventually the elderly Greek woman gave up, and the Ethiopian woman went back to her prayers and postrations.
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Ben

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2004, 08:11:35 PM »
Because whenever possible, I guess they want to experiance the ORIGINAL True Faith.   ;D

And we all know how much GOA is faithful to the ORIGINAL True Faith  ::)
« Last Edit: May 15, 2004, 08:13:39 PM by Ben »
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2004, 08:12:44 PM »
Because whenever possible, I guess they want to experiance the ORIGINAL True Faith.   ;D

Why are you trying to be provocative?  Or are you joking?
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

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Offline Ben

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2004, 08:14:31 PM »
I think Tom was joking around....
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2004, 08:25:18 PM »
Oh, okay!  Sorry.  I missed the smiley.  I guess the hostile tone this forum has taken lately has me a little on edge.  :)
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline TomS

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2004, 08:32:08 PM »
At the Cathedral there is this elderly greek woman...... She tapped the woman on the shoulder, and showed her how to make the sign of the cross the EO way.

And you can just imagine her praying: "Thank you Lord, that I am not like that woman over their who makes her cross wrong..."

Offline Ben

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2004, 08:38:15 PM »
Since I think those that I am wondering about were indeed Ethiopian Orthodox Christians, I have two questions about the Ethiopian Orthodox Church...

1) I have heard that the Rastafarian movement has its origins in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. In fact in "The Illustrated Encyclopedia of World Religions", in the Rastafrain section it has a picture of an Ethiopian Orthodox bishop (I can tell that it is an Ethiopian Orthodox bishop by the vestments) and the caption says "Christmas ceremonies in Ethiopia, where Jesus is seen as one in a line of black prophets, from Moses to Haile Selassie." Now I am sure that Ethiopian Orthodox do not believe this, but to what extent does the Rastafarian movement find its roots in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church?

2) I have also heard that the Ethiopian Orthodox Church Circumcisizes their baby boys, is this true?
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Ben

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2004, 08:51:24 PM »
Whoa! Now I am really confused...there are TWO Ethiopian Orthodox churches in Denver! Why would they go the GOA Catheral?
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Anastasios

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2004, 08:52:05 PM »
The Ethiopians and Copts are apparently estranged over Pope Shenouda consecrating a Patriarch for Eritrea I hear. Can anyone confirm this?

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Offline Ben

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2004, 08:53:40 PM »
hmmm...the two Ethiopian Orthodox churches in Denver, are Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo churches, is that any diferent from the Ethiopian Orthodox Church? What does "Tewahedo" mean?
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2004, 08:54:26 PM »
Since I think those that I am wondering about were indeed Ethiopian Orthodox Christians, I have two questions about the Ethiopian Orthodox Church...

1) I have heard that the Rastafarian movement has its origins in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. In fact in "The Illustrated Encyclopedia of World Religions", in the Rastafrain section it has a picture of an Ethiopian Orthodox bishop (I can tell that it is an Ethiopian Orthodox bishop by the vestments) and the caption says "Christmas ceremonies in Ethiopia, where Jesus is seen as one in a line of black prophets, from Moses to Haile Selassie." Now I am sure that Ethiopian Orthodox do not believe this, but to what extent does the Rastafarian movement find its roots in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church?

The person who wrote this article must be ill-informed.  Obviously, the Ethiopian Orthodox do not see Our Lord Jesus Christ as "one of a line of black prophets...".  The Rastafarian movement has its roots in Jamaica.  I am fortunate enough to be friendly with an Ethiopian bishop who was a close friend of the late Emperor Haile Selassie I.  He has told me that when His Majesty first heard that these people were worshipping him, he wept.  When he made an official state visit to Jamaica in the 1960's he personally met with the Rastafarian leaders and told them not to worship him.  He also gave recorded radio and television interviews telling people that he was not God.  The Emperor was a pious Christian and greatly loved the Church.  The bishop whom I mentioned earlier was given a special task from His Majesty to teach the Rastas the truth.  He has labored with them for many years, and baptized many of them.  Still, the Rastafarian movement in general is detatched from reality, and many still hold to their beliefs despite Haile Selassie's direct statements to the contrary.  They claim that even Our Lord Jesus Christ denied His own Divinity (in contradiction to the Scriptures).  Many of them have been baptized and renounced their Emperor-worship (even Bob Marley on his death bed) but many others just hang around the Church and disrupt the service, loudly calling out Haile Selassie's name whenever the priest mentions Our Lord Jesus.

The Rastafarian movement has no historic roots in Ethiopian Orthodoxy.  It is not an out-growth of Ethiopian Orthodoxy.  It is like having a crush on a movie star from afar, and then when you encounter the real thing and find out they are not what you think they are, you decide it is better to continue in your fantasy.

2) I have also heard that the Ethiopian Orthodox Church Circumcisizes their baby boys, is this true?

Yes, this is true.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2004, 09:00:40 PM »
anastasios - There was a little bad blood on both sides, but thankfully it has been worked out!  The Ethiopian Patriarch H.H. Paulos I recognizes that H.H. Pope Shenouda III had the right to consecrate a bishop for Eritrea.  In fact, the bishops of Ethiopia and Eritrea pretty much worked out their own separation before anyone invited the Pope to step in.

Ben - That is weird that they wouldn't go to one of the two Ethiopian Churches.  Maybe the Greek Church is closer, they do not have access to transportation, and they are not aware of the theological differences between the Orthodox Churches.  I have seen this dynamic in action before.  "Tewahedo" means "made one", a reference to their belief in the one united Nature of Christ.  The official title of the Ethiopian Church is "The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church".
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Ben

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2004, 09:07:00 PM »
I must find out why they attend the GOA Cathedral, and not one of the Ethiopian Orthodox churches! About 20, maybe more, of them attend the GOA Cathedral, its so weird.

In Christ,
Ben

P.S. - Thanks for the info on the Rastafarian movement and the Ethiopian Orthodox Church!
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2004, 09:08:55 PM »
No problem!  Now I've got to get off the internet for the night!  I've been hanging around hear for hours!  

P.S. - Please let me know what's going on when you find out!  :)
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2004, 11:33:44 PM »
I believe that "Tewahedo" means "Out of Two, One" in Ethiopian. I know we're not supposed to use the 'M-word" on this forum but that is what the name is describing. Why is it so weird? We've Copts who commune (with permission) in my ACROD parish.
Why do we assume they don't know where they are? Maybe they just like Greeks (we're not THAT bad) or the Greek Orthodox or the Greeks are helping to sponsor them through an IOCC program. Or maybe they're trying to convert the Greeks!  :D

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Offline JoeZollars

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2004, 01:17:56 AM »
very interesting.  I had a teacher this semester who was really into the Rasta cult (strange thing is he looks likeyour standard WASP blond hair blue eyed issue).  Anyways I was talking to him about religious issues one day, and I tried to tell him that HIH Haile Selassie was indeed not "God Incarnate" but was in fact a devout Orthodox.  He was trying to tell me it didn't amount to a hill of beans cause "Jesus was a devout jew."  

But hopefully, the Rasta cult will prove for him and for many others at least an introduction at somepoint to the Holy Faith and they will convert.

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Offline JoeZollars

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2004, 01:19:25 AM »
I believe that "Tewahedo" means "Out of Two, One" in Ethiopian. I know we're not supposed to use the 'M-word" on this forum but that is what the name is describing. Why is it so weird? We've Copts who commune (with permission) in my ACROD parish.
Why do we assume they don't know where they are? Maybe they just like Greeks (we're not THAT bad) or the Greek Orthodox or the Greeks are helping to sponsor them through an IOCC program. Or maybe they're trying to convert the Greeks!  :D

Demetri

Perhaps they are going there to see just how good they have it in the Ethiopian church. ;)

Joe Zollars

PS:  sorry couldn't resist.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2004, 09:02:28 PM »
I believe that "Tewahedo" means "Out of Two, One" in Ethiopian. I know we're not supposed to use the 'M-word" on this forum but that is what the name is describing. Why is it so weird? We've Copts who commune (with permission) in my ACROD parish.
Why do we assume they don't know where they are? Maybe they just like Greeks (we're not THAT bad) or the Greek Orthodox or the Greeks are helping to sponsor them through an IOCC program. Or maybe they're trying to convert the Greeks!  :D

Demetri

Well, the literal translation of Tewahedo is "made one" (like the Arabic waheed for one), but it is a reference to the Miaphysite Christology as you have inferred.  I don't assume they don't know where they are, but I think it is unlikely that they have renounced the Tewahedo Faith.

BTW, what's ACROD?
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Arystarcus

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2004, 10:57:05 PM »
Quote
BTW, what's ACROD?

Antonious,

ACROD stands for the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese (of the USA).

They are Eastern Orthodox.

Theie website may be found here if you're interested: http://www.acrod.org/

In Christ,
Aaron

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2004, 04:57:25 AM »
Perhaps they are going there to see just how good they have it in the Ethiopian church. ;)

Joe Zollars

PS:  sorry couldn't resist.

Perhaps you could try, Joe, try ;)

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2004, 05:31:32 AM »
We are good friends with the Eritreans here in the UK. Next month we are having a joint celebration of the 10th anniversary of the British Orthodox Church with the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate, and their own anniversary of their being granted autocephaly.

They are a very nice bunch of people. I do enjoy the diversity in unity that exists in my Orthodox communion.

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Offline JoeZollars

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2004, 01:05:36 PM »
Perhaps you could try, Joe, try ;)

Demetri

I do try Demetri, but like the french my resistance is useless. ;)

(there now I am not just insulting greeks)

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Offline SamB

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2004, 05:53:12 PM »
Well, the literal translation of Tewahedo is "made one" (like the Arabic waheed for one),

Actually, the Arabic word is tawheed, meaning uniting (a noun).  A waheed is the individual who is granted an exemption from army service in my country. ;)

I presume the former has the same precise meaning as its Ethiopian counterpart.

Tawheed is related to wihdah, and this means unity.

In IC XC
Samer
« Last Edit: May 17, 2004, 05:54:43 PM by SamB »

Offline TomS

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2004, 06:06:57 PM »
I do try Demetri, but like the french my resistance is useless. ;)

(there now I am not just insulting greeks)

Joe Zollars

Don't be silly Joe. Don't you know that you really can't insult a Greek!

They don't take any insult seriously -- they just think you are jealous because you aint Greek!  ;D



Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2004, 06:41:10 PM »
TomΣ,

Is true!

Demetri
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Offline JoeZollars

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2004, 06:49:04 PM »
lol.  Well this is probably just a side effect of their inferiorty complex they must be sufferign from not being members of 19th century Russia.  Is Sad!

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Offline JoeZollars

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2004, 06:49:52 PM »
Is Outrage! was it Greeks in 19th century Russia? hmm? ;)

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Offline JoeZollars

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2004, 06:52:58 PM »
of course we all know the HOly Race is Germans and Irish. :P

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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re:Who were these people?
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2004, 03:19:15 PM »
Actually, the Arabic word is tawheed, meaning uniting (a noun).  A waheed is the individual who is granted an exemption from army service in my country. ;)

I presume the former has the same precise meaning as its Ethiopian counterpart.

Tawheed is related to wihdah, and this means unity.

In IC XC
Samer

Of course you are right.  I stand corrected.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/