The Japan Earthquake begs the question...

[Dnarmist]

Do you think this disaster happened for a reason?

[orthonorm]

I will not steal a certain poster's thunder.

[Melodist]

Do you think this disaster happened for a reason?

It, along with every other natural disaster in the course of human history, is ultimately a result of the fall.

Just a thought.

[Jetavan]

Do you think this disaster happened for a reason?

What reason might that be?

[Veniamin]

Do you think this disaster happened for a reason?

Yes, specifically plate tectonics.

[orthonorm]

Why does my knee hurt?

Seriously. Melodist has the right of. If you are going to push this question to its limit you are going to just dredge up God's "ontological" will versus "providential" will in whatever cloak it is wrapped in.

Did God will it to happen?

Yes.
No.

Fr. Thomas Hopko's thoughts on God's will for 9/11:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/a_christian_response_to_terrorism

Search through that series of his, "Speaking the Truth in Love", with the word "suffering" and he deals frankly and (un)apologetically with the issue of the "Theodicy" or "problem of evil".

[deusveritasest]

Because the Creation, without certain intervention from God, is naturally inclined to chaos and decay, and humanity without integral communion with God is also and is subject to suffering from natural chaotic forces.

[minasoliman]

Because the Creation, without certain intervention from God, is naturally inclined to chaos and decay, and humanity without integral communion with God is also and is subject to suffering from natural chaotic forces.

In addition to that, I'd like to add that God did something unique.  Most of us expect to be saved from a situation.  God became part of the situation.  He became man and lived within the natural chaos and death-purposed world.  He showed us how to make the best of it whatever the situation may be.  He wants us to concentrate not on materialistic salvation, but on spiritual salvation and all things will come by eventually in the Promise of the Age to Come.

[Punch]

Do you think this disaster happened for a reason?

Yes.

[Tallitot]

Do you think this disaster happened for a reason?

What do you think?

[Irish Hermit]

Do you think this disaster happened for a reason?

Our evangelicals put out e-mails that the Christchurch earthquake was because of Freemasons worshipping in the Christchurch cathedral and homosexuals living in the city.

[LBK]

Do you think this disaster happened for a reason?

Our evangelicals put out e-mails that the Christchurch earthquake was because of Freemasons worshipping in the Christchurch cathedral and homosexuals living in the city.

Yeah, real Christian charity at work ... pardon me while I puke.   

[Quinault]

Do you think this disaster happened for a reason?

Yes, specifically plate tectonics.

This is the best explanation for why this happened. The current nuclear disaster occurred because Japan is heavily reliant upon nuclear power.

I must say that even with how "un-christian" Japan is as a nation, I am really impressed/humbled by how this culture is responding to this disaster. They are helping each other without thought of personal gain.

[Tallitot]

Do you think this disaster happened for a reason?

Our evangelicals put out e-mails that the Christchurch earthquake was because of Freemasons worshipping in the Christchurch cathedral and homosexuals living in the city.

Oh, they have WBC in NZ also?
Just once I'd like to see one of those self satisfied so-and-so's come out after a disaster and say something like "I think this happened because of my own sins. I guess G-d wants me to use this as an occasion to examine my own life and see how I can do better".


on 2nd thought it might be more fun to see one of those self satisfied so-and-so's come out.

[LBK]

ust once I'd like to see one of those self satisfied so-and-so's come out after a disaster and say something like "I think this happened because of my own sins. I guess G-d wants me to use this as an occasion to examine my own life and see how I can do better".

Don't hold your breath. 

on 2nd thought it might be more fun to see one of those self satisfied so-and-so's come out.

Fun thought indeed, but don't hold your breath.

[Achronos]

I believe weather phenomenon is morally neutral, am I wrong?

[TryingtoConvert]

Why does my knee hurt?

Seriously. Melodist has the right of. If you are going to push this question to its limit you are going to just dredge up God's "ontological" will versus "providential" will in whatever cloak it is wrapped in.

Did God will it to happen?

Yes.
No.

Fr. Thomas Hopko's thoughts on God's will for 9/11:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/a_christian_response_to_terrorism

Search through that series of his, "Speaking the Truth in Love", with the word "suffering" and he deals frankly and (un)apologetically with the issue of the "Theodicy" or "problem of evil".

Oh come on...

[recent convert]

Why does my knee hurt?

Seriously. Melodist has the right of. If you are going to push this question to its limit you are going to just dredge up God's "ontological" will versus "providential" will in whatever cloak it is wrapped in.

Did God will it to happen?

Yes.
No.

Fr. Thomas Hopko's thoughts on God's will for 9/11:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/a_christian_response_to_terrorism

Search through that series of his, "Speaking the Truth in Love", with the word "suffering" and he deals frankly and (un)apologetically with the issue of the "Theodicy" or "problem of evil".

Oh come on...

A brief explanation of your perspective in addition to your cliche hair trigger response possible?  Christians can understand the hard reality of tragedy too & many will send & give charitable aid to the living suffering & pray for the souls of those departed.

[Fr. George]

I believe weather phenomenon is morally neutral, am I wrong?

You're not wrong totally; it's morally neutral beyond our control - i.e. weather phenomena happen because there's sin and violence and death in the world, so it's morally neutral outside of our own contribution to it.  Moral: We should stop sinning.

Do you think this disaster happened for a reason? 

Yes, specifically plate tectonics.

It's so nice having you back!

[Marc1152]

Do you think this disaster happened for a reason?

Yes, specifically plate tectonics.

This is the best explanation for why this happened. The current nuclear disaster occurred because Japan is heavily reliant upon nuclear power.

I must say that even with how "un-christian" Japan is as a nation, I am really impressed/humbled by how this culture is responding to this disaster. They are helping each other without thought of personal gain.

While I was still a Buddhist the Kobe earthquake happened. I have many friends there and I recall being intrigued by their behavior which was very stoic.

There are a couple of reasons for this. They believe in Karma, cause and effect. The people who died or are suffering did something. They "Made a Cause" that has resulted in this effect. It is not so much what caused the Quake ( which they would agree was caused by Plates shifting) but why were you there to suffer the consequences.  

This original cause may not have even been done in this lifetime but could have been from many lifetimes ago. Or many causes over many lifetimes which has culminated in you getting washed out to Sea or getting nuked....etc.

On the bright side............. you have now expiated that bad Karma and your next life may be happier. You may have actually chosen this fate in the time between your last life and this one as a way to get rid of old bad Karma. You may have volunteered yourself for this.

As far as their orderliness, with all due respect, and I have much love for the Japanese, but I do know them pretty well. They are "The Borg".
They have a hive mentality. They do not think so much as individuals as we do in the West, they identify with the Group. This does make for great orderliness and at least in this instance, is serving them well.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2UP86bciVA

[Punch]

The current nuclear disaster occurred because Japan is heavily reliant upon nuclear power.

Incorrect.  It does not matter how "heavily" reliant on nuclear power you are.  If you just have one plant and it gets hit with a beyond design basis earthquake and a beyond design basis tsunami, the plant is not going to survive.  As to the specifics of what happened in Japan, they had a lot to do with design and little to do with "heavy reliance".  It would have been more accurate to say "the current nuclear disaster in Japan occured because the power plants there were designed for a 6.5 meter tsunami and were hit by one that measured anywhere from 7 meters to 10 meters."  Had they been designed to be hit with a 30' wall of water, there would be no nuclear disaster regardless of how reliant Japan is on nuclear power.

BTW - our West Coast reactors are designed for a tsunami of around 20', much like the reactors in Japan.  I am sure that will be under review in the upcoming months.

[bogdan]

Because the Creation, without certain intervention from God, is naturally inclined to chaos and decay, and humanity without integral communion with God is also and is subject to suffering from natural chaotic forces.

^ This.

I read a sermon once by St John Chrysostom (I think it was him...this was awhile ago), given, IIRC, after an earthquake hit Constantinople. He said that natural disasters occur because mankind is in rebellion against God.

This is not to be taken in the sense that Japan somehow made God angry and this was divine punishment, but in the sense that man's sinfulness has repercussions for the natural world, and it causes the natural world to buckle under the stress. We are image-bearers of God, and our actions do not rise to our calling. To be anthropomorphic, nature is offended that we tarnish God's image, and basically tries to wipe us out. After all, man's sin caused the pain of childbirth and the thorns of the earth. Basically, nature hates us for our sinfulness.

Terrifying as it is (and eyeroll-inducing to naturalists, no doubt), I am satisfied with this, because it also explains why saints like Seraphim of Sarov caused wild animals to be peaceful as lambs—he did rise to his calling, he bore the image of God in a proper way—and it made the natural world around him return to the peace of Eden.

[Marc1152]

Because the Creation, without certain intervention from God, is naturally inclined to chaos and decay, and humanity without integral communion with God is also and is subject to suffering from natural chaotic forces.

^ This.

I read a sermon once by St John Chrysostom (I think it was him...this was awhile ago), given, IIRC, after an earthquake hit Constantinople. He said that natural disasters occur because mankind is in rebellion against God.

This is not to be taken in the sense that Japan somehow made God angry and this was divine punishment, but in the sense that man's sinfulness has repercussions for the natural world, and it causes the natural world to buckle under the stress. We are image-bearers of God, and our actions do not rise to our calling. To be anthropomorphic, nature is offended that we tarnish God's image, and basically tries to wipe us out. After all, man's sin caused the pain of childbirth and the thorns of the earth. Basically, nature hates us for our sinfulness.

Terrifying as it is (and eyeroll-inducing to naturalists, no doubt), I am satisfied with this, because it also explains why saints like Seraphim of Sarov caused wild animals to be peaceful as lambs—he did rise to his calling, he bore the image of God in a proper way—and it made the natural world around him return to the peace of Eden.

After he had been beaten half to death by thieves. 

[bogdan]

Alas, I would not expect men bent on destruction to recognize a holy man.

"[The animals] serve Thee better in their place than we in ours." -St Basil

[Tallitot]

Do you think this disaster happened for a reason?

Yes, Charlie Sheen's drinking problem.

[orthonorm]

Why does my knee hurt?

Seriously. Melodist has the right of. If you are going to push this question to its limit you are going to just dredge up God's "ontological" will versus "providential" will in whatever cloak it is wrapped in.

Did God will it to happen?

Yes.
No.

Fr. Thomas Hopko's thoughts on God's will for 9/11:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/a_christian_response_to_terrorism

Search through that series of his, "Speaking the Truth in Love", with the word "suffering" and he deals frankly and (un)apologetically with the issue of the "Theodicy" or "problem of evil".

Oh come on...

You might not like the answer, but due to sin all of creation suffers. Man was to be able to give proper stewardship of the Garden of Eden and extend its "paradise" throughout all of creation.

This is why as Christians we should not only beg forgiveness of other humans, but of all creation also.

Jesus was able to calm the natural order not only in virtue of His divinity but also in virtue of His perfect humanity. Saints have shown similar abilities.

One of the sad aspects of catastrophes like the one Japan is going through now, is that due to the "scale of misery" does it cause people to ask such questions, when every death, disease, etc. should remind us of our fallen state and we should be suffer with those who suffer outside of "calamities" as well as with those within them.

If you actually listen to that podcast, Fr. Thomas Hopko quotes Stalin's old adage. "A million deaths are a tragedy, a single death a statistic." (My paraphrase.)

[orthonorm]

Do you think this disaster happened for a reason?

Yes, Charlie Sheen's drinking problem.

Ur on a roll lately.

[Cognomen]

I will not steal a certain poster's thunder.

 

[Irish Hermit]

Russian Prophecy about a Pacific Tsunami

Such a tsunami would inflict enormous damage on Alaska and the whole American
seaboard.

"At the far end of Russia,  there will be an enormous earthquake. The
waters will break out of the ocean,  flooding the continent, and many nations
will perish. Many diseases beyond  understanding will appear…. The face of the
earth will change…. The people will  comprehend their guilt; they will come
to understand how far they have departed  from God and from His teachings,
and then they will begin to be reborn spiritually, gradually being cleansed
physically, as well. People will become vegetarians. By that time, many
animals will have vanished. The horse and the  dog will only be seen in
pictures; and later – the cow, the goat, and the sheep  will disappear forever from
our planet…. People will no longer be interested in  politics, and the
spiritual principle of each nation will  predominate…"
 
Martyr-Eldress  Dunyushka of Ussuruisk, Siberia (+1918)

Source:  Dr Vladimir Moss on Orthodox-Tradition

[Asteriktos]

Thankfully horses, dogs and cows suvived this time.

[Achronos]

From His Eminence Isaiah of the Archdiocese of Denver:

As we enter more and more into this third millennium, we have begun to witness increasing natural and man-made disasters. Thousands of people have been killed, while millions have remained homeless during just the past five years. What does this mean to us?

There is no question that we are living at a time in human history when disasters of every kind are on the increase. It appears to be true that we are at the beginning of the prophesied latter day events.

Should we worry? As people of the Church, and as sons and daughters of God, we have no reason to worry or to fear. For we know that, when we stay close to God in prayer and in our corporate worship, we have no reason to feel insecure.

What should we do? As I have stated in the past in some of my encyclicals, we must always be ready to help the victims of such disasters. This means that all members of the Church, with the Philoptochos Society taking the lead, should be awakened more than ever before, becoming ever more generous and sacrificial in helping those less fortunate. In doing this we emulate our Lord Jesus Christ Who did not come into the world to be served, but He came in order to serve others.

Consequently, the Philoptochos Society must always be in the forefront of helping others, especially when disasters strike.

On Thursday, November 24, 2005 we, as Americans, will celebrate the only religious holiday that our nation has established, and which dates back to the days of President Abraham Lincoln. As we attend our worship services at church, or enter into private prayers, and especially as we sit at our Thanksgiving table laden with God's blessings, let us beseech Christ our God to alleviate the pain and the suffering of so many people throughout the world, and also to make us more sensitive to the needs of others. In this way we will truly be faithful sons and daughters, beloved children of God our Father, Who will continue to work through us for the good and the benefit of those who hunger and thirst, who are without clothing and shelter, and who look to us to diminish their tragic condition.

Finally, more than ever before, let us thank our good and loving God Who shelters us under His protection with all the blessings we enjoy each day of our lives.

http://www.denver.goarch.org/metropolis/biography/monographs/unexpected_events.html

[deusveritasest]

I believe weather phenomenon is morally neutral, am I wrong?

Nope.

[Melodist]

Thankfully horses, dogs and cows suvived this time.

Yes. It would be a real tragedy if at least the cows did not survive until Pascha.

[ativan]

Do you think this disaster happened for a reason?

Yes, specifically plate tectonics.

That's right. But why did those plates move at a specific time and place?

And most importantly as orthodox christians this tragedy should teach us something, shouldn't it? For one we need to learn to have compassion for those involved and to pray for them (alive or dead). But is this most important thing we (and especially Japanese people) should learn from the tragedy? To me this questions beg the answers.

[minasoliman]

Do you think this disaster happened for a reason?

Yes, specifically plate tectonics.

That's right. But why did those plates move at a specific time and place?

And most importantly as orthodox christians this tragedy should teach us something, shouldn't it? For one we need to learn to have compassion for those involved and to pray for them (alive or dead). But is this most important thing we (and especially Japanese people) should learn from the tragedy? To me this questions beg the answers.

From John 9:

1 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
   3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

There is no reward or punishment when natural disasters or diseases happen in this world.  But for whatever that happens, know that you should always display the works of God.  Therefore, for this disaster, go do the works of God.  That's all you need to know.  Looking for reasons is a petty discussion as Christ refuted his disciples.

[Riddikulus]

Do you think this disaster happened for a reason?

Yes, specifically plate tectonics.

Post of the month! 

[Riddikulus]

Do you think this disaster happened for a reason?

Our evangelicals put out e-mails that the Christchurch earthquake was because of Freemasons worshipping in the Christchurch cathedral and homosexuals living in the city.

What? God is such a lousy shot that he can't avoid killing non-freemasons and non-homosexuals in the process? Give me strength. Where do these people get this appalling thought process from?

[ativan]

Therefore, for this disaster, go do the works of God.  That's all you need to know.  Looking for reasons is a petty discussion as Christ refuted his disciples.

I totally agree. I meant same thing actually: Things happen to us in order for us to wake up and draw closer to The Almighty. This is all we have to know as you said.

[NorthernPines]

Do you think this disaster happened for a reason?

Yes, specifically plate tectonics.

Exactly! I know earthquakes seem like a "big thing" and they are on a scale of destruction, but there is no more reason to think there is any "reason" behind it anymore than there is any "reason" for lightening striking a tree in the forest (even when no human is there to see it). Something like an earthquake just happens to affect millions of people and so we tend to ascribe cosmic significance to them which we never would say the tree falling in the forest; unless of course we were actually there to see it fall or be struck by lightening in which case we'd automatically assume it was "mean for us" in some way.

[NorthernPines]

Do you think this disaster happened for a reason?

Yes, specifically plate tectonics.

That's right. But why did those plates move at a specific time and place?

And most importantly as orthodox christians this tragedy should teach us something, shouldn't it? For one we need to learn to have compassion for those involved and to pray for them (alive or dead). But is this most important thing we (and especially Japanese people) should learn from the tragedy? To me this questions beg the answers.

What could be more important to the answer of "why?" The thing is unlike people 200 years ago we DO know why!

If you want to learn about earthquakes go become a geologist! If you want to learn "why it rains" go become a meteorologist. If you want to know "why the sun comes up every morning" go become an astronomer. This is  not the year 1355, when such things were a mystery. (despite the fact that some talk show hosts don't know why the tides go in and out) This is 2011 and we KNOW why these things happen. If you or I don't know it is merely out of our own personal ignorance just as it was 4000 years ago when people thought earthquakes were caused because of the Titans stomping around in Tartarus.

If we are to learn anything at all it is probably to recognize our own ignorance and to encourage us to study how the world works even more than we did before. The seeking of "why" is how we know that tiny invisible animals caused the the black death and not God's wrath. It how we know tiny invisible creatures cause people to catch colds etc. If there is something to learn from this I'd say it is for us to see how quickly we as human beings want to divide up humanity into the "saved and the damned" or how egocentric we really are to think everything that happens is God's way of telling us "something". It's a natural part of our thought process and our senses; but then so is thinking the earth is flat.

[NorthernPines]

Russian Prophecy about a Pacific Tsunami

Such a tsunami would inflict enormous damage on Alaska and the whole American
seaboard.

"At the far end of Russia,  there will be an enormous earthquake. The
waters will break out of the ocean,  flooding the continent, and many nations
will perish. Many diseases beyond  understanding will appear…. The face of the
earth will change…. The people will  comprehend their guilt; they will come
to understand how far they have departed  from God and from His teachings,
and then they will begin to be reborn spiritually, gradually being cleansed
physically, as well. People will become vegetarians. By that time, many
animals will have vanished. The horse and the  dog will only be seen in
pictures; and later – the cow, the goat, and the sheep  will disappear forever from
our planet…. People will no longer be interested in  politics, and the
spiritual principle of each nation will  predominate…"
 
Martyr-Eldress  Dunyushka of Ussuruisk, Siberia (+1918)

Source:  Dr Vladimir Moss on Orthodox-Tradition

Isn't that kind of like "predicting" the following:

In the far North of Alaska there will 6 months of darkness and bitter cold. Animals and people will die. Even in Fairbanks the ice carnival will be canceled due to the bitter cold. - Me, 5 minutes ago

I mean, it's not much of a prediction when even people 100 years ago could figure out that a certain part of the planet had certain types of natural phenomenon that would come to pass eventually, just given enough time. People 100 years ago weren't stupid. They didn't know about plate tectonics but they knew where big earthquakes happened and where they didn't. It's like all the "evangelical prophets" saying "in LA there will be a massive earthquake"...yeah, Duh! Of course there will. Just as sure as I predict "in Northern Minnesota the temperature will hit 20 below zero"....of course since that happens EVERY winter is it really a prediction?

Even the prediction of people no longer being interested in politics and becoming vegetarians (both of which I'm partial too so I'm not arguing against them) but, if some day this did happen, does that make the Eldress a prophet? Does it make Gene Roddenberry a prophet since he "predicted" essentially the same thing in Star Trek? (and I'm sure quite independently of Russian prophets)

Not saying I wouldn't like parts of the prophecy to be true, however considering only hours after the earthquake politicians and talking heads in America were debating whether or not America could "afford" to help Japan financially, I don't think this is fulfillment of said prophecy.

[Achronos]

I strongly object NP. We know HOW it happens but we do not know the WHY.

[Monk Vasyl]

Russian Prophecy about a Pacific Tsunami

Such a tsunami would inflict enormous damage on Alaska and the whole American
seaboard.

"At the far end of Russia,  there will be an enormous earthquake. The
waters will break out of the ocean,  flooding the continent, and many nations
will perish. Many diseases beyond  understanding will appear…. The face of the
earth will change…. The people will  comprehend their guilt; they will come
to understand how far they have departed  from God and from His teachings,
and then they will begin to be reborn spiritually, gradually being cleansed
physically, as well. People will become vegetarians. By that time, many
animals will have vanished. The horse and the  dog will only be seen in
pictures; and later – the cow, the goat, and the sheep  will disappear forever from
our planet…. People will no longer be interested in  politics, and the
spiritual principle of each nation will  predominate…"
 
Martyr-Eldress  Dunyushka of Ussuruisk, Siberia (+1918)

Source:  Dr Vladimir Moss on Orthodox-Tradition

Isn't that kind of like "predicting" the following:

In the far North of Alaska there will 6 months of darkness and bitter cold. Animals and people will die. Even in Fairbanks the ice carnival will be canceled due to the bitter cold. - Me, 5 minutes ago

I mean, it's not much of a prediction when even people 100 years ago could figure out that a certain part of the planet had certain types of natural phenomenon that would come to pass eventually, just given enough time. People 100 years ago weren't stupid. They didn't know about plate tectonics but they knew where big earthquakes happened and where they didn't. It's like all the "evangelical prophets" saying "in LA there will be a massive earthquake"...yeah, Duh! Of course there will. Just as sure as I predict "in Northern Minnesota the temperature will hit 20 below zero"....of course since that happens EVERY winter is it really a prediction?

Even the prediction of people no longer being interested in politics and becoming vegetarians (both of which I'm partial too so I'm not arguing against them) but, if some day this did happen, does that make the Eldress a prophet? Does it make Gene Roddenberry a prophet since he "predicted" essentially the same thing in Star Trek? (and I'm sure quite independently of Russian prophets)

Not saying I wouldn't like parts of the prophecy to be true, however considering only hours after the earthquake politicians and talking heads in America were debating whether or not America could "afford" to help Japan financially, I don't think this is fulfillment of said prophecy.

In the prophecy the part about the dog reminds me of "Planet of the Apes", when dogs and cats died and people made apes their new pets.

[Entscheidungsproblem]

I strongly object NP. We know HOW it happens but we do not know the WHY.

Our planet is alive, that is why.

[recent convert]

I think what the Lord says in Matthew 24 re natural disasters is telling us that these are ongoing tragedies humanity will experience until the second coming & to deal with by faith & proper works (nothing out of the ordinary). I think his references to specific tragedies in Luke 13 also reiterate this point & his emphasis is that the victims are no better or worse than those who continue living but that repentance is our most important concern. His emphasis on avoiding false prophets should dispell any fantastic notions we may conjure re these unfortnate events ( I would think).

[podkarpatska]

I strongly object NP. We know HOW it happens but we do not know the WHY.

Our planet is alive, that is why.

Interesting point and one that is not in conflict with Faith.

I think that asking 'why' is a pointless question for the most part. The sky is blue -why? Well, I know the scientific answer about the refraction of light, do we need to know 'why'? Would you feel better if you 'knew' that God perhaps preferred blue over red? It is what it is. 

We have learned that the universe itself is 'alive' in that it is not static in its orientation and composition. To have faith do you have to know 'why' this is so? I don't think so.

If you have faith St. Paul's words should put to rest the need to know the 'why'. "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known."1 Corinthians 13:12

Concentrate on the now and the things that you have the ability to confront and make for the better. To much emphasis on the 'why' will only lead you to despair.

[John Larocque]

If nothing else, it's given the "Green Patriarch" a reason to issue a bunch of  "No Nukes" announcements (for which there has been almost no discussion here).

Every death or disaster is a reminder of our own mortality. That's usually the "lesson" I get out of these events.

[minasoliman]

Therefore, for this disaster, go do the works of God.  That's all you need to know.  Looking for reasons is a petty discussion as Christ refuted his disciples.

I totally agree. I meant same thing actually: Things happen to us in order for us to wake up and draw closer to The Almighty. This is all we have to know as you said.

Well, yes and no.  The result is that we wake up and draw closer to God.  But God isn't behind the disaster.  The world and natural laws are.  The idea behind the passage I quoted is that whatever happens, we have to make the best out of them.  To look for reasons why something happened like this I wanted to stress would actually be an insult to the people it happened to.

[bogdan]

Do you think this disaster happened for a reason?

Yes, specifically plate tectonics.

That's right. But why did those plates move at a specific time and place?

And most importantly as orthodox christians this tragedy should teach us something, shouldn't it? For one we need to learn to have compassion for those involved and to pray for them (alive or dead). But is this most important thing we (and especially Japanese people) should learn from the tragedy? To me this questions beg the answers.

What could be more important to the answer of "why?" The thing is unlike people 200 years ago we DO know why!

If you want to learn about earthquakes go become a geologist! If you want to learn "why it rains" go become a meteorologist. If you want to know "why the sun comes up every morning" go become an astronomer. This is  not the year 1355, when such things were a mystery. (despite the fact that some talk show hosts don't know why the tides go in and out) This is 2011 and we KNOW why these things happen. If you or I don't know it is merely out of our own personal ignorance just as it was 4000 years ago when people thought earthquakes were caused because of the Titans stomping around in Tartarus.

If we are to learn anything at all it is probably to recognize our own ignorance and to encourage us to study how the world works even more than we did before. The seeking of "why" is how we know that tiny invisible animals caused the the black death and not God's wrath. It how we know tiny invisible creatures cause people to catch colds etc. If there is something to learn from this I'd say it is for us to see how quickly we as human beings want to divide up humanity into the "saved and the damned" or how egocentric we really are to think everything that happens is God's way of telling us "something". It's a natural part of our thought process and our senses; but then so is thinking the earth is flat.

Can the spiritual world and nature be so divided as this?

No, we don't go around like the Westboro people, saying every disaster is specific punishment inflicted on someone who made him mad. Nor do we say that God smites people with disease for some reason.

But, we also don't say that destruction (even of trees in the forest) is divorced from human sinfulness. That isn't to say that everything is a specific "Repent!" message from God, but neither are these things random events that have nothing to do with the state of the world. The Fall has consequences for the natural world. The Fathers wrote about how nature was different before the Fall.

[ativan]

Well, yes and no.  The result is that we wake up and draw closer to God.  But God isn't behind the disaster.  The world and natural laws are.  The idea behind the passage I quoted is that whatever happens, we have to make the best out of them.  To look for reasons why something happened like this I wanted to stress would actually be an insult to the people it happened to.

I can't say what OO Church teaches on that but EO Church definitely does not teach that. The idea God is not behind the disaster is not part of Eastern Orthodox faith. God "who is everywhere and fills everything" is behind everything and anything. The world and natural laws are not spontaneous creations. Almighty is the Creator and Supporter (from instant to instant) of all things visible and invisible. What do you think, was God not behind great flood or destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?

P.S. When I believe that the disaster was a consequence of human fall I never mean I'm somehow any better than those people who suffered. I'm sure out of multitude sufferers many of them were much better people in all regards than my sinful self.

[minasoliman]

Well, yes and no.  The result is that we wake up and draw closer to God.  But God isn't behind the disaster.  The world and natural laws are.  The idea behind the passage I quoted is that whatever happens, we have to make the best out of them.  To look for reasons why something happened like this I wanted to stress would actually be an insult to the people it happened to.

I can't say what OO Church teaches on that but EO Church definitely does not teach that. The idea God is not behind the disaster is not part of Eastern Orthodox faith. God "who is everywhere and fills everything" is behind everything and anything. The world and natural laws are not spontaneous creations. Almighty is the Creator and Supporter (from instant to instant) of all things visible and invisible. What do you think, was God not behind great flood or destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?

P.S. When I believe that the disaster was a consequence of human fall I never mean I'm somehow any better than those people who suffered. I'm sure out of multitude sufferers many of them were much better people in all regards than my sinful self.

Old Testament stories are filled with disasters that are a result of God's punishment on people's wrong-doings, and successes as a result of God's reward on people's righteousness.  In the New Testament, we have righteous people now being persecuted.  Therefore, we don't look for Sodom and Gomorrahs of today, we look for ways where we can live the life of God today.  Christ became crucified and ended this curse of punishment for sins.

Second of all, if you believe this world's disasters and random chaos is a result of the Fall of man, are you saying that the Fall of man is God's doing?

I'm sure many EO's disagree with you.

[Jonathan Gress]

“There were some present at that very time who told Him of the Galilaeans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And He answered then, ‘Do you think that these Galilaeans were worse sinners than all the other Galilaeans, because they suffered thus? I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen upon whom the tower of Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who dwell in Jerusalem? I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish” (Luke 13.1-5)

[ativan]

Second of all, if you believe this world's disasters and random chaos is a result of the Fall of man, are you saying that the Fall of man is God's doing?

No, I'm not saying that: our fall is our choice based on free will (as long as we have the ability to make choices and we are not suffering from certain diseases affecting our decision-making)

I'm sure many EO's disagree with you.

I'm sure about that too. But if we all listened to our Saints (departed and living ones) we would all agree on this.

 

[ozgeorge]

our fall is our choice based on free will

No it isn't. I wasn't in the Garden of Eden when my first parents disobeyed God, so how could it be my choice to be born into the conditions of the Fall? Even Christ and the Theotokos were born into the conditions of the Fall- was the Fall their choice too?

[minasoliman]

Second of all, if you believe this world's disasters and random chaos is a result of the Fall of man, are you saying that the Fall of man is God's doing?

No, I'm not saying that

But you said:

EO Church definitely does not teach that. The idea God is not behind the disaster is not part of Eastern Orthodox faith.

Which is it?  Did God cause the tsunami to kill the Japanese, or did the tsunami happen due to a fallen world's laws?  What quotes from Church fathers can you provide?

[ativan]

our fall is our choice based on free will

No it isn't. I wasn't in the Garden of Eden when my first parents disobeyed God, so how could it be my choice to be born into the conditions of the Fall? Even Christ and the Theotokos were born into the conditions of the Fall- was the Fall their choice too?

If minasoliman meant what you just said, then I concede. I meant different thing. I said we have a choice to go with God or against God. Whether I was born with a fallen state or without it, those types of theological intricacies are of much less importance to me. One of the reason is one can argue endlessly about it and argue in any direction. What I value in Orhtodoxy is the practical way of living (recognizing one's pride, repenting and asking to God forgiveness constantly and so on). In Orthodox practice punishment is not a bad thing at all. Contrary is true. Saints say unfortunate is a man who has sinned but was not punished in this world. Things like this is what counts for me. I know that I would probably feel miserable and complain (maybe even fall in disparate state) if that tragedy happened to me, but I pray to the Lord to give me spiritual strength to go through such a calamity or any kind of personal disaster and then try me.

Glory to God

minasoliman

EO Church definitely does not teach that. The idea God is not behind the disaster is not part of Eastern Orthodox faith.

Which is it?  Did God cause the tsunami to kill the Japanese, or did the tsunami happen due to a fallen world's laws?  What quotes from Church fathers can you provide?

This question of yours is not consistent. God could be the ultimate cause of the disaster and at the same time He could have brought this disaster because of us sinning, not repenting and blaspheming and so on. Now I want to point one thing as it appears (based on ozgeorge's response to me) we use the world "fall" differently. When I used that word I meant our own sins in this world and not Adam's and Eve's fall.

About quotes, I can quote from one of the Great saint of 20th century (who's not been canonized yet) or great leaving Saint from who's very mouth Holy Spirit has talked. Will you take those quotes?

[Achronos]

I strongly object NP. We know HOW it happens but we do not know the WHY.

Our planet is alive, that is why.

Not what I'm saying here. We know how this earthquake happened, as you said our planet is alive. That doesn't answer the question as to why. Why an earthquake at that part of Japan? What is the meaning of this quake?

You could say "Stuff happens" but I personally am not satisfied with that answer. I want to explore it, what's it meaning and what is this earthquake saying?

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