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Author Topic: Anglican Catholic Church, Western Orthodox?  (Read 944 times) Average Rating: 0
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danman916
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« on: March 14, 2011, 11:23:02 AM »

Here is the link to their web site.

http://www.anglicancatholic.org/index.php

Has anyone had any contact with these people? I am told that they are Western Rite Orthodox in communion with the Eastern Orthodox Churches. However, they recite the Filioque in their Creed in their liturgy, so it confuses me that a Church in communion with other Eastern Orthodox Churches could be in communion yet have the Filioque in their Creed.
Can anyone explain this?

Does anyone have any information about them and their status to the other Orthodox Churches?

Thanks
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« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2011, 11:30:42 AM »

For sure they are not Eastern Orthodox Christians.
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« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2011, 11:34:11 AM »

They are not even Western Orthodox Christians.

No Orthodox say the filioque.

There churches are in North America, but there bishops are not here
http://www.assemblyofbishops.org/directories/bishops/

so we know that they are not in communion with us.
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« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2011, 11:36:26 AM »

The ACC is a group that broke away from the Episcopal Church a number of years ago.  As one could infer from their name, they are high church in worship and doctrine, but definitely remain Anglican in doctrine and practice.  They are not a Western Rite Orthodox group and are not in communion with the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2011, 11:45:28 AM »

hmm,

Yesterday i was speaking with someone from this Church who said they were in communion with the Eastern Orthodox.
I don't know why they would have said that. But it seemed very odd to me considering that he did affirm that they recite the Filioque.

I looked on wikipedia (i know that is not the most reliable of sources), and it didn't say anything about communion with the Eastern Orthodox, only that their Bishops were consecrated in 1978. I do not know if that means that they were consecrated in order to be within the Apostolic succession. It didn't say who consecrated them.

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« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2011, 11:48:09 AM »

It didn't say who consecrated them.

I don't know about the rest but I don't care. They are outside the visible borders of the Church and it's all I should know about them.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 11:48:18 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2011, 11:49:35 AM »

i was simply looking for information about them in regards to their status with the Eastern Orthodox Churches, that's all.
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« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2011, 11:55:45 AM »

hmm,

Yesterday i was speaking with someone from this Church who said they were in communion with the Eastern Orthodox.
They lied.
I don't know why they would have said that.
Trying to legitimize themselves.

But it seemed very odd to me considering that he did affirm that they recite the Filioque.
Which means they are not in communion with us.

I looked on wikipedia (i know that is not the most reliable of sources), and it didn't say anything about communion with the Eastern Orthodox, only that their Bishops were consecrated in 1978. I do not know if that means that they were consecrated in order to be within the Apostolic succession. It didn't say who consecrated them.
It doesn't matter even if Orthodox bishops patted them on the head (they didn't.  We know that). If they are not on that list that I linked to, they are not in canonical standing with the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church which confesses the Orthdoox Faith.
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« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2011, 11:56:20 AM »

hmm,

Yesterday i was speaking with someone from this Church who said they were in communion with the Eastern Orthodox.
I don't know why they would have said that. But it seemed very odd to me considering that he did affirm that they recite the Filioque.

I looked on wikipedia (i know that is not the most reliable of sources), and it didn't say anything about communion with the Eastern Orthodox, only that their Bishops were consecrated in 1978. I do not know if that means that they were consecrated in order to be within the Apostolic succession. It didn't say who consecrated them.



They might be in some sort of "communion" with a vagante group, but they are not part of the Church.
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« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2011, 12:07:44 PM »

The AAC is one of the oldest "continuing" churches, attached to the Affirmation of St. Louis. They are pretty Anglo-Catholic. As far as I know they didn't start with (by Anglican standards) adequate bishops; I think they had one retired bishop to work with though I could be wrong about that, but I know they didn't take three active bishops with them and I'm fairly sure they didn't take three of any status. I can't imagine why anyone would say that they are in communion with the Orthodox.
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« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2011, 07:49:30 PM »

hmm,

Yesterday i was speaking with someone from this Church who said they were in communion with the Eastern Orthodox.
I don't know why they would have said that.

Because a number of high church Anglicans think they are in communion with us. While there are groups out there who are lying about it in an attempt to legitimize themselves, there are tried-and-true Anglicans who truly believe this (in fact, I had to clarify the issue with a friend just a couple of weeks ago.) There were historical reasons for this mistake (let me emphatically state that communion between the east and the post-schism Anglican church never existed), but those reasons happened more than a century ago.

Here's a bit of the history:

Quote
Throughout St. Raphel's pastoral life, he longed for the return of Episcopalians to the Orthodox Church and worked tirelessly for reunion. (The Church had invited PECUSA Bp. Charles Grafton to attend his consecration in 1904, but he had to decline for health reasons.) St. Raphael was a loving and trusting man. When High Church Episcopalians told him their faith (and that of all their brethren) mirrored Orthodoxy, St. Raphael issued a statement that Orthodox may seek out Episcopal priests in cases of extreme necessity, provided no Orthodox priest was available. PECUSA promptly took advantage of his trust, sheep-stealing as many Arabs as possible. This caused St. Raphael to resign his position as vice president of the Anglican and Eastern Orthodox Churches Union in 1911 and rescind his pastoral decree. St. Raphael continued to promote the idea of an American Church with a Western Rite until his repose in 1915.

--Taken from http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/11/st-raphael-of-brooklyn-bishop-and.html

Even before this, there were some in the Oxford Movement who attempted to unite the CoE with the Orthodox Church, but that would have never taken off because the CoE, no matter how high-church, is fundamentally Protestant. Anglo-Catholics, whether they will admit it or not, are the innovators within Anglicanism, which did not exist in any real sense as a distinct body before Edward VI.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 07:50:52 PM by Agabus » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2011, 08:07:17 PM »

Anglo-Catholics, whether they will admit it or not, are the innovators within Anglicanism, which did not exist in any real sense as a distinct body before Edward VI.

Not to entirely derail the thread, but I would say that is incorrect.  The tension between Protestantism and Anglo-Catholicism has been around since Cranmer and King Henry VIII.  I would also like to point out that Anglo-Catholics, aside from the occasional splinter group (but you'll find that with ultra-low-church as well) do not exist as a separate body in the Anglican Communion, but as a movement within the body. 

As regards the Anglican Catholics, however, everything you stated is correct.
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« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2011, 08:33:12 PM »

Has anyone had any contact with these people?

Not exactly, but I probably know a fair amount of basic information about them.

I am told that they are Western Rite Orthodox in communion with the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

Who told you that?!
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« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2011, 08:35:59 PM »

Yesterday i was speaking with someone from this Church who said they were in communion with the Eastern Orthodox.
I don't know why they would have said that.

Don't be tricked by that sort of talk. It's not uncommon. What they are basically saying is that they would be willing to give communion to an EO person or even to concelebrate, if the other party were willing. They mean something totally different from what you are imagining.
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« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2011, 09:36:13 AM »

Quote from: deusveritasest
Don't be tricked by that sort of talk. It's not uncommon. What they are basically saying is that they would be willing to give communion to an EO person or even to concelebrate, if the other party were willing. They mean something totally different from what you are imagining.
This is also correct. You will actually find a similar situation in some RC churches, though they qualify it with "if your bishop was willing."

Anglo-Catholics, whether they will admit it or not, are the innovators within Anglicanism, which did not exist in any real sense as a distinct body before Edward VI.

Not to entirely derail the thread, but I would say that is incorrect.  The tension between Protestantism and Anglo-Catholicism has been around since Cranmer and King Henry VIII.  I would also like to point out that Anglo-Catholics, aside from the occasional splinter group (but you'll find that with ultra-low-church as well) do not exist as a separate body in the Anglican Communion, but as a movement within the body. 

As regards the Anglican Catholics, however, everything you stated is correct.
I only say this as an interpreter of history, not dogmatically. It is only my opinion.


PerhapsI should clarify: In my readings, the feeling that I got was that through the rule of James II, Catholics in England didn't consider themselves anything but Catholic -- they would not have called themselves Anglo-Catholics, Anglican Catholics, Catholic Anglicans, etc. The prevailing mood of the day would not have allowed for a real Catholic-dissent movement within the church; heck, Charles I (and the Abp. of Canterbury with him) lost his head for being too Arminian. There were certainly Catholic/Anglican tensions in the early years of the Anglican Church's independence, but that is because both hated each other and the Catholics didn't recognize the authority of the Church of England. That is why the last officially adopted prayerbook is still the 1662, which borrowed high-church theatrics but was at its core Protestant. I'm not saying there wasn't a Catholic party in the Church of England, it just didn't consider itself to be an Anglican-Catholic party.

What we identify as Anglo-Catholicism didn't really arise until the nineteenth century, and the reason it didn't tear the church apart then was nationalism. At that time  Englishmen basically worshipped the English church settlement, which was as much a part of civic life as the secular government.

Again, this is only my reading of history. The history of the Church of England after 1559 was a very messy affair.
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