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Author Topic: Synodikon of Orthodoxy  (Read 5892 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2013, 06:44:57 AM »

From the tonsured reader I contacted:

Quote
According to the rubics it is read by the protodeacon, in the presence of the bishop.
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« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2013, 07:39:20 AM »

From another priest, under the GOAA:

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The Synodikon is not properly served without a bishop, though it happens, especially here among zealous converts in the OCA, though never in a Greek Church. It is really a patriarchal office. It is not done on Athos with the anathemas.
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« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2013, 08:10:42 AM »

In North America, the Greek Old Calendarist group HOCNA is pretty well known for translating, publishing, and promoting the reading of the Synodikon by the faithful in general.  A few years ago I went to a HOCNA parish on the Sunday of Orthodox expecting the Synodikon to be read at the service but was told by the priest afterwards that the Synodikon is typically only read in a Cathedral with a bishop present.

That being said, has anyone here actually heard the Synodikon read in a cathedral with a bishop on the Sunday of Orthodoxy?  I believe this is still done in ROCOR, but am not sure about other jurisdictions.
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« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2013, 09:10:06 AM »

That being said, has anyone here actually heard the Synodikon read in a cathedral with a bishop on the Sunday of Orthodoxy?  I believe this is still done in ROCOR, but am not sure about other jurisdictions.

The only time I have ever heard the Synodikon done in its entirety was at cathedral, with a bishop serving. Same cathedral when the bishop was not present just did the "What the prophet's beheld..."
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« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2013, 09:11:52 AM »

Not everything is written down in Orthodoxy, a great many traditions are simply, and correctly, passed down by other means - by praxis, by oral tradition, etc.
If that is indeed all you have to go on, then I would say that the tradition of any Church which prohibits the reading of the Synodicon of Orthodoxy on the first Lord's day of Lent is a Church that uses a tradition which is an artificial fabrication and a lie. 

To accuse Churches which make known and proclaim the Synodicon of Orthodoxy publicly aloud in Church even without a bishop as allegedly being in error is to falsely accuse without any precedent in Christian tradition except that which has been fabricated by heretics in modern times for their own convenience.

Did you just call me a heretic?
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« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2013, 09:19:17 AM »

That being said, has anyone here actually heard the Synodikon read in a cathedral with a bishop on the Sunday of Orthodoxy?  I believe this is still done in ROCOR, but am not sure about other jurisdictions.

The only time I have ever heard the Synodikon done in its entirety was at cathedral, with a bishop serving. Same cathedral when the bishop was not present just did the "What the prophet's beheld..."

If in America or other historically non-Orthodox land, what jurisdiction?
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« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2013, 09:28:52 AM »

Not everything is written down in Orthodoxy, a great many traditions are simply, and correctly, passed down by other means - by praxis, by oral tradition, etc.
If that is indeed all you have to go on, then I would say that the tradition of any Church which prohibits the reading of the Synodicon of Orthodoxy on the first Lord's day of Lent is a Church that uses a tradition which is an artificial fabrication and a lie.  

To accuse Churches which make known and proclaim the Synodicon of Orthodoxy publicly aloud in Church even without a bishop as allegedly being in error is to falsely accuse without any precedent in Christian tradition except that which has been fabricated by heretics in modern times for their own convenience.

Did you just call me a heretic?

He certainly seems to have said so for those who regard the synodikon as an episcopal service.  Shocked

Unfortunately for Dionysii, the evidence is mounting that it is he who is in error on this matter.
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« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2013, 09:56:41 AM »

I know that I speak for many of us who are tired of being called out as a heretic - not directly, but surely by tone and inference by one not in the community of canonical Orthodoxy. Enough already. You have a right to believe as you wish but I suspect that the Saints and Elders whom you respect and reverence would not approve of haughtiness and the lack of introspective humility often displayed by certain posters. We are all imperfect and during the Fast, as we all approach the Great Day, the words of St. Ephraim the Syrian should be first and foremost on our tongues, our minds and our hearts - not the dusty words of the Synodikon, rightly reserved for use at best in full once a year.To obsess about it is to be like the Pharisee whose prayers were not pleasing to the Lord .

O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power, and idle talk.

But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to Thy servant.

Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own transgressions, and not to judge my brother, for blessed art Thou, unto ages of ages. Amen.
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« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2013, 10:08:46 AM »

A reply from another priest:

Quote

I am under the impression that the anathemas are done only with a bishop present.

When I look in the annual Instruction for Divine Services for 2013 (MP) for example for the Sunday of Orthodoxy it only has a Service (Последование) of the Sunday of Orthodoxy. This service prays for the strengthening of Orthodoxy. Priests and deacons are referred to but there is no reference to a bishop. It contains none of the anathemas. (on this Sunday many of our rocor parishes- ours included- do a moleben for the return to Orthodoxy of those who have gone astray- this seems appropriate in our western circumstances).



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« Reply #54 on: April 11, 2013, 10:09:17 AM »

I know that I speak for many of us who are tired of being called out as a heretic - not directly, but surely by tone and inference by one not in the community of canonical Orthodoxy. Enough already. You have a right to believe as you wish but I suspect that the Saints and Elders whom you respect and reverence would not approve of haughtiness and the lack of introspective humility often displayed by certain posters. We are all imperfect and during the Fast, as we all approach the Great Day, the words of St. Ephraim the Syrian should be first and foremost on our tongues, our minds and our hearts - not the dusty words of the Synodikon, rightly reserved for use at best in full once a year.To obsess about it is to be like the Pharisee whose prayers were not pleasing to the Lord .

O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power, and idle talk.

But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to Thy servant.

Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own transgressions, and not to judge my brother, for blessed art Thou, unto ages of ages. Amen.
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Well said, my friend. Well said.  Kiss
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« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2013, 01:27:23 PM »

the evidence is mounting that it is he who is in error on this matter.
Quote
According to the rubrics it is read by the protodeacon, in the presence of the bishop.

If this is "mounting evidence," then could you be more specific?
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« Reply #56 on: April 11, 2013, 04:43:24 PM »

To accuse Churches which make known and proclaim the Synodicon of Orthodoxy publicly aloud in Church even without a bishop as allegedly being in error is to falsely accuse without any precedent in Christian tradition except that which has been fabricated by heretics in modern times for their own convenience.

According to your new sect, you were a heretic until about a week ago. You might want to be more circumspect in waving the h-word around.
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« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2013, 06:40:07 PM »

the evidence is mounting that it is he who is in error on this matter.
Quote
According to the rubrics it is read by the protodeacon, in the presence of the bishop.

If this is "mounting evidence," then could you be more specific?

Think about it this way... There are certain things that are left to the Bishops alone. For example ordination. Only a Bishop can ordain, that is the tradition. What canon gives them that authority? Can you cite the specific canon that says only a bishop can ordain?

So if a bishop ordains someone and wants to let everyone know, he sends out a letter to his diocese. This announcement may be read by someone in the church, but the people do not sing the Axios threefold again for this proclamation, that would be in error. The service of ordination can only be done by the Bishop.

With this in mind there is nothing wrong with publishing the entire Synodikon. There is even nothing wrong with everyone saying together the creedal statement of "As the prophets beheld..." because it is a universal proclamation of what we believe. The problem comes when a priest over steps his authority to proclaim "Anathema", this proclamation of Anathema is reserved for the Bishop alone, just as his proclamation of Axios at ordination is reserved for him alone. The priest, deacons, and laity can only confirm this with a reply.

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« Reply #58 on: April 11, 2013, 09:45:37 PM »

Beautiful!

Recollections of the Triumph of Orthodoxy in Moscow, 1914
Johann von Gardner (+1984)

Quote
“All those who deny the existence of God, and assert that the world came into being by itself – Anathema!”
“Anathema! Anathema! Anathema!” — in an awesome unison the entire mass of clergy, the vast majority of whom were bassos, sang in reply.
The Synodal Choir took up and echoed the chant, “Anathema, Anathema, Anathema!”
Once again, Rozov “exclaimed” a new separation – and in response the awesome “anathema” thundered from the clergy and choir.
The faces of the holy martyrs looked out sternly from the frescoes on the tall columns. Sternly and solemnly, in all the glory of Orthodoxy the bishops stood, vested in gold sakkoses that looked as if they had been forged [rather than woven].
The Church’s awesome power to bind and loose was palpable. Those proclaimed anathemas, which year in and year out had thundered from within the confines of these arches, were terrifying and awesome.
http://www.pravmir.com/recollections-of-the-triumph-of-orthodoxy-in-moscow-1914/
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« Reply #59 on: April 11, 2013, 11:27:21 PM »

the evidence is mounting that it is he who is in error on this matter.
Quote
According to the rubrics it is read by the protodeacon, in the presence of the bishop.

If this is "mounting evidence," then could you be more specific?

Dionysii, do you know what rubrics are?
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« Reply #60 on: April 12, 2013, 12:01:50 AM »

From another priest:

Quote
My understanding is that this rite belongs to a cathedral, and that it be in the presence of the bishop.
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« Reply #61 on: April 12, 2013, 10:07:44 PM »

From the tonsured reader I contacted:
Quote
According to the rubics it is read by the protodeacon, in the presence of the bishop.

Dionysii, do you know what rubrics are?
Liturgical guidelines.

By "more specific," I wanted to know what date these aforementioned rubrics originated because I would be surprised if this custom has an ancient precedent.  I was interested to know the date and author of such rubrics. 

I read Fr. Leonid Ouspensky's excellent history of iconography in which he states in the introduction that the passage of time including even several centuries does not make a wrong thing right.  A general trend of westernization of Eastern Orthodoxy took place in the seventeenth century which affected many things besides iconography such as theology (which process is described by Fr. Florovsky).  I also learned recently from Fr. Thomas Hopko that the fixation of the mysteries of the Church at exactly seven is another doctrine which the Eastern Orthodoxy has adopted from the Franks and which completely lacks any ancient foundation. 

Fr. Leonid Ouspensky specifically states that Russian liturgics were altered by Patriarch Nikon and his followers who introduced the Frankist custom of polyphonic chant into Russian Orthodox churches.  This was obviously accompanied by new rubrics.

Your have only shown what many people practice today, but I already know that most people do not hear the whole Synodicon read on the first Lord's Day of Lent.  I admit I am now more aware of the excuse offered for deleting it, but I would need evidence this custom is an ancient tradition of the Church as well as the reason for it which is beyond me. 

I wonder what could possibly be the purpose of such rubrics if it were not to promote the ignorance of people who were not directly under the thumb of an apostate bishop who would keep his flock ignorant in the same manner as the bishops of the Franks.
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« Reply #62 on: April 12, 2013, 10:23:05 PM »

"We have received from the Church of God, that upon this day we owe yearly thanksgiving to God along with an exposition of the dogmas of piety and the overturning of the impieties of evil."
http://www.oodegr.com/english/ekklisia/synodoi/synodicon_of_orthodoxy.htm

If your church is conducting the Synodikon without a bishop, it is in error.

I wonder what underlying reason would justify any rubrics proscribing what the Seventh Oecumenical Synod has commanded. 
Were these rubrics included with the Seventh Oecumenical Synod or added many centuries later?
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« Reply #63 on: April 12, 2013, 10:26:38 PM »

The prerogative for the issuing of anathemas has always resided solely with bishops. Deal with it.

Where is the written evidence which allows lower clergy to issue anathemas, Dionysii? You are simply looking to justify a practice in your own schismatic church, a practice which none of the other canonical churches, certainly not the Greek or Russian churches, regard as proper.

And flinging charges of heresy and apostasism is not only no way of conducting an argument, nor is it humble or justifiable.  Angry
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« Reply #64 on: April 12, 2013, 10:40:53 PM »

which liturgical book contains the Synodikon of Orthodoxy?
Traditionally, the Triodion.  I have seen Greek editions of the Triodion that include the Synodicon of Orthodoxy. 
However, Bishop Kallistos Ware omitted the Synodikon of Orthodoxy in his English translation of the Triodion.   

Does anyone have [a link to?] the text of current official Synodikon used by the Ecumenical Patriarchate?   Greek is fine, though a translation also works.
The most complete English translation of which I am aware was published by Holy Transfiguration Monastery of Boston in the Spring of 2000 in a special double issue of The True Vine (Issue Numbers 27 & 28). 

are there differences between the one used by the Ecumenical Patriarchate and with the Moscow, Antioch, Jerusalem or Alexandrian Patriarchates? ... if ... have differences, I'd be curious ...
I have not looked into this detail. 
I doubt the coincidence that an Old Calendarist Synod happens to have published the most complete edition available in English. 

In my opinion, this document is not well known by English speakers precisely to keep English speaking people from questioning their synods' compliance with what it says. The Synodicon of Orthodoxy was omitted from Bishop Kallistos Ware's English translation of the Triodion because it names and anathematizes heresies as well as names Saints who have followed the truth.  If parishioners knew and understood the implications of the contents of the Synodikon of Orthodoxy, then many synods would have a lot to explain.
Oh?  We have a shortage of people who speak English and Greek and Russian/Slavonic, such that its contents remain a deep, dark secret, because not one of such bilinguals are telling?

So, what of its contents do you think we need to know?
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« Reply #65 on: April 12, 2013, 10:52:30 PM »

which liturgical book contains the Synodikon of Orthodoxy?
Traditionally, the Triodion.  I have seen Greek editions of the Triodion that include the Synodicon of Orthodoxy. 
However, Bishop Kallistos Ware omitted the Synodikon of Orthodoxy in his English translation of the Triodion.   

Does anyone have [a link to?] the text of current official Synodikon used by the Ecumenical Patriarchate?   Greek is fine, though a translation also works.
The most complete English translation of which I am aware was published by Holy Transfiguration Monastery of Boston in the Spring of 2000 in a special double issue of The True Vine (Issue Numbers 27 & 28). 

are there differences between the one used by the Ecumenical Patriarchate and with the Moscow, Antioch, Jerusalem or Alexandrian Patriarchates? ... if ... have differences, I'd be curious ...
I have not looked into this detail. 
I doubt the coincidence that an Old Calendarist Synod happens to have published the most complete edition available in English. 

In my opinion, this document is not well known by English speakers precisely to keep English speaking people from questioning their synods' compliance with what it says. The Synodicon of Orthodoxy was omitted from Bishop Kallistos Ware's English translation of the Triodion because it names and anathematizes heresies as well as names Saints who have followed the truth.  If parishioners knew and understood the implications of the contents of the Synodikon of Orthodoxy, then many synods would have a lot to explain.
Oh?  We have a shortage of people who speak English and Greek and Russian/Slavonic, such that its contents remain a deep, dark secret, because not one of such bilinguals are telling?

So, what of its contents do you think we need to know?

Spare us the conspiracy theories, Dionysii. I have on file an English translation of the Synodikon, translated by a priest of a canonical Greek jurisdiction under the EP.



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« Reply #66 on: April 12, 2013, 10:54:00 PM »

which liturgical book contains the Synodikon of Orthodoxy?
Traditionally, the Triodion.  I have seen Greek editions of the Triodion that include the Synodicon of Orthodoxy. 
However, Bishop Kallistos Ware omitted the Synodikon of Orthodoxy in his English translation of the Triodion.   

Does anyone have [a link to?] the text of current official Synodikon used by the Ecumenical Patriarchate?   Greek is fine, though a translation also works.
The most complete English translation of which I am aware was published by Holy Transfiguration Monastery of Boston in the Spring of 2000 in a special double issue of The True Vine (Issue Numbers 27 & 28). 

are there differences between the one used by the Ecumenical Patriarchate and with the Moscow, Antioch, Jerusalem or Alexandrian Patriarchates? ... if ... have differences, I'd be curious ...
I have not looked into this detail. 
I doubt the coincidence that an Old Calendarist Synod happens to have published the most complete edition available in English. 

In my opinion, this document is not well known by English speakers precisely to keep English speaking people from questioning their synods' compliance with what it says. The Synodicon of Orthodoxy was omitted from Bishop Kallistos Ware's English translation of the Triodion because it names and anathematizes heresies as well as names Saints who have followed the truth.  If parishioners knew and understood the implications of the contents of the Synodikon of Orthodoxy, then many synods would have a lot to explain.
Oh?  We have a shortage of people who speak English and Greek and Russian/Slavonic, such that its contents remain a deep, dark secret, because not one of such bilinguals are telling?

So, what of its contents do you think we need to know?

Spare us the conspiracy theories, Dionysii. I have on file an English translation of the Synodikon, translated by a priest of a canonical Greek jurisdiction under the EP.
shhhhh! you're not supposed to tell! police
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« Reply #67 on: April 12, 2013, 10:57:18 PM »

Where is the written evidence which allows lower clergy to issue anathemas, Dionysii?
None that I know, but that is not the issue since we do not issue anathemas when we read them.
These anathemas were issued in the eighth century by the Seventh Oecumenical Synod.  

We had already been over that.  When I ask a pointed question, you don't answer the question I ask or even admit you don't know.
You get angry, recycle your old garbage like the accusation above, and accuse me of impiety, conspiracy theories, etc,  
but you avoid my question to the end.  


You do not answer my questions because you cannot and resort to slander.  
I have not accused you nor anyone here specifically of being a heretic or a schismatic.  I have not accused you of lack of humility.
You are the one who accuses us specifically of being schismatics and myself as lacking humility.  Is that humble? I have not done that to you.  

I am glad that when I accused other synods of being heretical, I took care not to single out anyone specifically.  
I stated what I believe, and I continue to be convinced that the tradition which you speak of lacks any antiquity.  

EDIT:
God bless you, my friend.
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« Reply #68 on: April 12, 2013, 11:06:33 PM »

Where is the written evidence which allows lower clergy to issue anathemas, Dionysii?
None that I know, but that is not the issue since we do not issue anathemas when we read them.
These anathemas were issued in the eighth century by the Seventh Oecumenical Synod.

So a Bishop issuing an anathema is a one time event even if the same Bishop says that the restoration of icons is to be commemorated on the first Sunday of the Great Lent?  1,170 years after the Seventh Ecumenical Synod, Bishops should just stop repeating the anathemas listed in the Synodikon?

Lay people have read the Synodikon including the anathemas.  My church used to say some of the anathemas in the Synodikon; however, in recent years, they have stopped because priests and laymen cannot issue anathemas.
  
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« Reply #69 on: April 12, 2013, 11:24:12 PM »

So a Bishop issuing an anathema is a one time event even if the same Bishop says that the restoration of icons is to be commemorated on the first Sunday of the Great Lent?  1,170 years after the Seventh Ecumenical Synod, Bishops should just stop repeating the anathemas listed in the Synodikon?

If a layman reads aloud the Synodicon of Orthodoxy in Church including all the anathemas therein, that layman is not issuing those anathemas.  He is not the originator of it.  He is merely making known the anathemas which were issued by the bishops of the Seventh Oecumenical Synod.
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« Reply #70 on: April 12, 2013, 11:32:03 PM »

So a Bishop issuing an anathema is a one time event even if the same Bishop says that the restoration of icons is to be commemorated on the first Sunday of the Great Lent?  1,170 years after the Seventh Ecumenical Synod, Bishops should just stop repeating the anathemas listed in the Synodikon?

If a layman reads aloud the Synodicon of Orthodoxy in Church including all the anathemas therein, that layman is not issuing those anathemas.  He is not the originator of it.  He is merely making known the anathemas which were issued by the bishops of the Seventh Oecumenical Synod.

I can read the Synodikon for myself at home.  I just can't proclaim it during service.  Bishop can read entire Synodikon including anathemas.  There, problem solved.   Cheesy
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« Reply #71 on: April 12, 2013, 11:34:06 PM »

problem solved.   Cheesy
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« Reply #72 on: April 13, 2013, 03:05:52 AM »

On accusations of heresy, apostasy and conspiracy:

Your words:

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In my opinion, this document is not well known by English speakers precisely to keep English speaking people from questioning their synods' compliance with what it says. The Synodicon of Orthodoxy was omitted from Bishop Kallistos Ware's English translation of the Triodion because it names and anathematizes heresies as well as names Saints who have followed the truth.  If parishioners knew and understood the implications of the contents of the Synodikon of Orthodoxy, then many synods would have a lot to explain.
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I wonder what could possibly be the purpose of such rubrics if it were not to promote the ignorance of people who were not directly under the thumb of an apostate bishop who would keep his flock ignorant in the same manner as the bishops of the Franks.
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If that is indeed all you have to go on, then I would say that the tradition of any Church which prohibits the reading of the Synodicon of Orthodoxy on the first Lord's day of Lent is a Church that uses a tradition which is an artificial fabrication and a lie.

To accuse Churches which make known and proclaim the Synodicon of Orthodoxy publicly aloud in Church even without a bishop as allegedly being in error is to falsely accuse without any precedent in Christian tradition except that which has been fabricated by heretics in modern times for their own convenience.


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« Reply #73 on: April 13, 2013, 07:17:17 AM »

Everyone: If I'll notice one more cause of anyone in this thread calling another one poster or his synod "schismatic", "heretic" or using other ad hominems dots will fall. Go to the private section or return to substantive discussion.
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« Reply #74 on: April 15, 2013, 01:36:35 AM »

Why does the Patriarch of Constantinople not do the synodikon with anathemas?  I am talking about in the phanar
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« Reply #75 on: April 15, 2013, 01:53:24 AM »

Why does the Patriarch of Constantinople not do the synodikon with anathemas?  I am talking about in the phanar

Evidence for this?
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« Reply #76 on: April 16, 2013, 10:59:16 AM »

Why does the Patriarch of Constantinople not do the synodikon with anathemas?  I am talking about in the phanar

Evidence for this?
I have heard this as well, and you are quite right in wanting evidence for this.  I would like to see that myself.  It's interesting.


I asked my priest about the custom of requiring a bishop to read the 'Synodicon of Orthodoxy' on the first Lord's day of Lent, and he told me that it is a Russian custom that began after the time of Tsar Peter I which is very interesting.  I will look for information about the history of this.

I would be very interested to hear information about the origin of this particular custom. 
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« Reply #77 on: May 09, 2013, 05:31:01 PM »

Christ is risen!

In the Western Rite, in England, the practice was known of the priest proclaiming anathemas on the First Sunday in Lent. However, the service is of a rather different character in that the things anathematized are various serious moral crimes.

Really, until the Wycliffe phenomenon in the 14th (was it?) century, there was not in England any real organized intellectual dissidence to church teachings. So maybe that is why the emphasis was so different.

This has to do with Western Rite and should not be considered to apply at all to the Eastern Rite.
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« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2013, 01:52:44 AM »

Why does the Patriarch of Constantinople not do the synodikon with anathemas?  I am talking about in the phanar

Evidence for this?

The recordings of the Triumph of Orthodox liturgies in the phanar, they did not do the anathemas. In fact, in the video I saw not only did they not proclaim the anathemas, you can see one of the "heretics" they would anathema in attendence! (breaking canons again, oops)

here is a recording, please tell me if you can find any of the synodikon... perhaps I missed it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yEBLxnao3c
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« Reply #79 on: May 10, 2013, 02:28:45 AM »

and another, from the 2013 one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sApN8XBxQUE

again, where is it?

perhaps I am missing it?
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« Reply #80 on: June 29, 2013, 12:03:08 PM »

Quote from: Gunnarr
Why does the Patriarch of Constantinople not do the synodikon with anathemas?  I am talking about in the phanar
The recordings of the Triumph of Orthodox liturgies in the phanar, they did not do the anathemas.

here is a recording, please tell me if you can find any of the synodikon... perhaps I missed it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yEBLxnao3c
and another, from the 2013 one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sApN8XBxQUE
again, where is it?
perhaps I am missing it?

These posts and comments of yours are much appreciated.
Notwithstanding any forthcoming evidence to the contrary, it appears from what you have posted that the Patriarchate of Constantinople does not read the Synodicon of Orthodoxy publicly.  This comment was particularly interesting:
Quote from: Gunnarr
In fact, in the video I saw not only did they not proclaim the anathemas, you can see one of the "heretics" they would anathema in attendance!
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