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« on: March 13, 2011, 08:49:47 AM »

what is liturgical calendar for?

why do priests have to go to seminary? can't they preach w/o it?
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« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2011, 10:36:15 AM »

The liturgical calendar contains the dates of feasts, what Saints are commemorated each day, what scripture readings are attributable to each day, when do fats begin etc.

The problem is what would Priest preach without seminaries Wink They also need to learn all those manual things like censing.
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« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2011, 11:41:50 AM »

Quote
...when do fats begin etc.
Really? I didn't know the calendar showed that as well...
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« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2011, 11:55:51 AM »

Most of the calendars have I've seen have fat days marked somehow.
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« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2011, 12:04:20 PM »

Lol
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« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2011, 12:13:23 PM »

You seem to have very strange sense of humour Smiley I'm sorry for my typos.
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« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2011, 12:25:20 PM »

You seem to have very strange sense of humour Smiley I'm sorry for my typos.
It must be an American thing...
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« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2011, 01:53:23 PM »

I am unsure what is happening here. please be kind to each other---do not let the purple demons of Lent in the forum or your comments.

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« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2011, 02:25:28 PM »

I am unsure what is happening here. please be kind to each other---do not let the purple demons of Lent in the forum or your comments.

Thomas
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Purple demons? A brief explanation please? Thanks.
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« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2011, 03:06:13 PM »

It is during Great Lent that the Devil and his demons redouble their efforts to drag down the Orthodox Christian as they seek to sanctify themselves by redoubling our effort to fast, repent and change our lives. The purple demons of Lent come out in force. How can you tell the purple ones have arrived? You have trouble making it to church. Every where you look you seem to see more meat ads, you craving for a 'big mac' increases[even if you don't like Big Macs], meat is everywhere you look. You miss morning prayer when the alarm clock mysteriously stops working. Church politics gets crazy [last year's Antiochian controversy or this year's OCA distress]. Your sarcasm and biting wit hurt other people or bait them to respond negatively. You've seen it. A wise Russian Priest when asked how a parishioner should fast answered this way, "Do not eat men." The "Purple Demons" want turmoil, jealousy, conflict, and anything else that can keep us from our goals of fasting, repentance, and almsgiving that lead us to the Feast of Feasts, Pascha.

You will often hear members of the OC.net use the term "Purple Demons" as a quick reminder for us to avoid internet behavior during Great Lent that that hurts out members and cause Satan and his demons cause to rejoice.

I hope this simple explanation helps.

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« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2011, 03:08:00 PM »

Yes. Thank you.
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« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2011, 02:20:20 PM »

what is liturgical calendar for?

why do priests have to go to seminary? can't they preach w/o it?

Priests do not have to go to seminary although most Bishops require it today. Seminaries in the Orthodox tradition only came into existence about 2 hundred years ago as a result of Latin influence. It is common to have a Priest go to seminary in our current secular times as academics seem to be of higher esteem than traditional spiritualism. There are examples in church tradition of a lay person being elected to Bishop without any formal vocational training.

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« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2011, 02:25:54 PM »

Also, priests do A LOT more than just preach.  Pastoral counseling springs to mind.  Gone are the days, at least in the so-called First World, where a priest's job was to "do" the Eucharist and not much more.  We expect our presbyters to be able to do a lot more and seminary helps to train them for that.
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« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2011, 03:02:41 PM »

"what is liturgical calendar for?"

Basically, to keep track of events in the liturgical year, because the Orthodox liturgy, as it is practiced over the course of a year, is extremely complex. In fact, the word 'complex' doesn't really do it justice.

The yearly liturgy consists of cycles of fixed feasts, moving feasts, saint's remembrances, commemorations of events in the life of Christ, in the life of the Theotokos, fasting periods, and other occasions too numerous to cite. The year is sub-divided into seasons, the seasons into months, the months into weeks, the weeks into days and the days into hours. The number of liturgical books that must be consulted in order to perfom a day's liturgy almost boggle the mind.

Look up the word, 'byzantine'.
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« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2011, 07:53:13 PM »

Also, priests do A LOT more than just preach.  Pastoral counseling springs to mind.  Gone are the days, at least in the so-called First World, where a priest's job was to "do" the Eucharist and not much more.  We expect our presbyters to be able to do a lot more and seminary helps to train them for that.

The work of the Priest of the parish I attend is wide ranging.

More than a day job.
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« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2011, 10:45:48 PM »

I once read that if you had access to an Orthodox church that was able to do every single service that is part of the regular interlocking cycles of worship and celebration, you could attend every one of those services for 11 years before the exact same combination of scripture, hymns, saints would come round again.
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« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2011, 11:07:48 PM »

I once read that if you had access to an Orthodox church that was able to do every single service that is part of the regular interlocking cycles of worship and celebration, you could attend every one of those services for 11 years before the exact same combination of scripture, hymns, saints would come round again.

I wonder who did the math on that one...? 
what is liturgical calendar for?

why do priests have to go to seminary? can't they preach w/o it?

Priests do not have to go to seminary although most Bishops require it today. Seminaries in the Orthodox tradition only came into existence about 2 hundred years ago as a result of Latin influence. It is common to have a Priest go to seminary in our current secular times as academics seem to be of higher esteem than traditional spiritualism. There are examples in church tradition of a lay person being elected to Bishop without any formal vocational training.



I don't think this is totally true.  All priests have to have SOME kind of education, even if it's spiritual education & you pluck someone out of a monastery who hasn't passed 1st grade, they probably have SOME kind of spiritual or even worldly knowledge. 


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« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2011, 09:05:58 AM »

I once read that if you had access to an Orthodox church that was able to do every single service that is part of the regular interlocking cycles of worship and celebration, you could attend every one of those services for 11 years before the exact same combination of scripture, hymns, saints would come round again.

I wonder who did the math on that one...? 
what is liturgical calendar for?

why do priests have to go to seminary? can't they preach w/o it?

Priests do not have to go to seminary although most Bishops require it today. Seminaries in the Orthodox tradition only came into existence about 2 hundred years ago as a result of Latin influence. It is common to have a Priest go to seminary in our current secular times as academics seem to be of higher esteem than traditional spiritualism. There are examples in church tradition of a lay person being elected to Bishop without any formal vocational training.



I don't think this is totally true.  All priests have to have SOME kind of education, even if it's spiritual education & you pluck someone out of a monastery who hasn't passed 1st grade, they probably have SOME kind of spiritual or even worldly knowledge. 




Yes, I guess you could redefine the question to suit yourself.  The question though concerned seminary. Seminaries did not exist in the Orthodox tradition for the first 1800 years.  And seminaries only became widely "required" in the last 50-80 years.  So if your idea of Orthodox Tradition is only the past century then you may be considered to be correct. 

Someone who has had a "good" education would know that the ability to heal and preach without a formal education has historically been seen as an indication of divine intervention, the work of the Holy Spirit.  A doctor who cures a sickness is not nearly as astounding as a fisherman who lays his hand on a paralytic and commands him to walk.
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« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2011, 09:42:29 AM »

what is liturgical calendar for?

why do priests have to go to seminary? can't they preach w/o it?

Priests do not have to go to seminary although most Bishops require it today. Seminaries in the Orthodox tradition only came into existence about 2 hundred years ago as a result of Latin influence.

Oh, good; another round of your revisionism and slant.  You seem to have a funny idea of "have to" - if the bishop says you "have to" go to Seminary, then you have to go.  And while the current construction of seminaries may be relatively recent, there have been theological schools of higher learning for over 1000 years (U of Constintinople, for example).

It is common to have a Priest go to seminary in our current secular times as academics seem to be of higher esteem than traditional spiritualism.

Spare us your vitriol and needless conjecture.

There are examples in church tradition of a lay person being elected to Bishop without any formal vocational training.

Not exactly true; the examples of laymen elected as hierarchs all demonstrate that they had formal theological education and were active in the Church community before their election.
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« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2011, 09:44:47 AM »

Someone who has had a "good" education would know that the ability to heal and preach without a formal education has historically been seen as an indication of divine intervention, the work of the Holy Spirit.  A doctor who cures a sickness is not nearly as astounding as a fisherman who lays his hand on a paralytic and commands him to walk.

A fisherman who spent years with Jesus, learning from Him every day, being instructed in ways of faith and in the fullness of scripture.  Not an uneducated fisherman by any stretch.
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« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2011, 04:15:20 PM »

Someone who has had a "good" education would know that the ability to heal and preach without a formal education has historically been seen as an indication of divine intervention, the work of the Holy Spirit.  A doctor who cures a sickness is not nearly as astounding as a fisherman who lays his hand on a paralytic and commands him to walk.

A fisherman who spent years with Jesus, learning from Him every day, being instructed in ways of faith and in the fullness of scripture.  Not an uneducated fisherman by any stretch.

And even Christ spent quite some time in the Desert "educating" himself, and even proved to be a better "educator" than the rabbi when he was a child.  Not bad for someone who would have had to have the whole torah memorized as well as all the teachings (as a child). 
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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2011, 12:25:03 AM »

Yes, Fr George a Bishop can dictate whatever he wants in terms of clergy requirements. So that means, he can dictate that someone must graduate from a particular seminary depending on the current political winds or no seminary at all.

The University of Constantinople or the Byzantine University as it is also called was a secular school following the Plato and Aristotle model from its inception in the 5th century all the way to the sacking of Constantinople by the Crusades in 1204. From then to 1453, it survived under "church" control but was never a seminary. Rather it instructed beaurocrats (often eunuchs) to work in the administration of the Church.  It did not survive after 1453.  The first Orthodox seminaries were in Serbia and Kiev around the turn of the 19th century.

It is a far stretch to claim an Orthodox Tradition for seminary education. There is no need to attack the strawman again Fr George. Just because there is no Tradition for it does not mean it is a "bad" thing. With the increasing role the clergy is playing in secular administration of the business affairs of parishes; it is certainly necessary that they obtain additional education.  In addition, it would be good for them to learn the legal requirements for reporting child abuse and for supporting and counseling victims of abuse.  The Roman Catholic Church has paid out an estimated $1,000,000,000 (one billion dollars) in settlements over the past 20 years for clergy abuse.  The Orthodox Church is hardly in a position to follow in their footsteps although Bishop Paisios may have made this a fait accompli.
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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2011, 12:53:29 AM »

Yes, Fr George a Bishop can dictate whatever he wants in terms of clergy requirements. So that means, he can dictate that someone must graduate from a particular seminary depending on the current political winds or no seminary at all.

The University of Constantinople or the Byzantine University as it is also called was a secular school following the Plato and Aristotle model from its inception in the 5th century all the way to the sacking of Constantinople by the Crusades in 1204. From then to 1453, it survived under "church" control but was never a seminary. Rather it instructed beaurocrats (often eunuchs) to work in the administration of the Church.  It did not survive after 1453.  The first Orthodox seminaries were in Serbia and Kiev around the turn of the 19th century.

It is a far stretch to claim an Orthodox Tradition for seminary education. There is no need to attack the strawman again Fr George. Just because there is no Tradition for it does not mean it is a "bad" thing. With the increasing role the clergy is playing in secular administration of the business affairs of parishes; it is certainly necessary that they obtain additional education.  In addition, it would be good for them to learn the legal requirements for reporting child abuse and for supporting and counseling victims of abuse.  The Roman Catholic Church has paid out an estimated $1,000,000,000 (one billion dollars) in settlements over the past 20 years for clergy abuse.  The Orthodox Church is hardly in a position to follow in their footsteps although Bishop Paisios may have made this a fait accompli.

While not called "seminaries" there were schools in Alexandria, Antioch, and Rome that specialized in Christian education for priests dating back to at least the 2nd century.  Also, monasteries served the same purposes dating back to the 4th century.  The only innovation is the word "seminary".
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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2011, 01:18:14 AM »

While not called "seminaries" there were schools in Alexandria, Antioch, and Rome that specialized in Christian education for priests dating back to at least the 2nd century.  Also, monasteries served the same purposes dating back to the 4th century.  The only innovation is the word "seminary".

Please give sources for these Orthodox seminaries or theological schools.
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« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2011, 02:53:30 AM »

While not called "seminaries" there were schools in Alexandria, Antioch, and Rome that specialized in Christian education for priests dating back to at least the 2nd century.  Also, monasteries served the same purposes dating back to the 4th century.  The only innovation is the word "seminary".

Please give sources for these Orthodox seminaries or theological schools.

Does that answer your question?

source

Quote
The Catechetical School of Alexandria is a prime example. Founded by Bishop Demetrius towards the close of the second century, it grew to its greatest heights under the leadership of the famous Origen before his departure to Caesarea (where he developed a similar institution). Its scope has been well summarised as 'an encyclopaedic teaching, presenting in the first place the whole series of profane sciences, and then rising to moral and religious philosophy, and finally to Christian theology, set forth in the form of a commentary on the sacred books'.3 In all this, Origen was clearly influenced by Alexandrian and Jewish precedents, but that the school was more than a 'Christian University' is evidenced by the fact that it produced notable missionaries (e.g. Gregory the Wonderworker, Apostle of Pontus, who studied under Origen at Caesarea).
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« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2011, 08:06:12 AM »

Does that answer your question?

Quote
In summary, then, the earliest equipment for Christian leadership―over and above the basic
religious experience and knowledge common to all―was to be found in charismatic gift,
practical experience at lower levels of responsibility and the personal guidance and instruction
of men of God who were either themselves in the front line of Christian service―as
Bishops―or who were specially set apart for the task of giving instruction and leadership.

Not sure your source agrees with you. "charismatic gift, practical experience, and personal guidance"

Why are you so fervent to diminish the role of the charismatic gift and these other methods in favor of academics?
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« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2011, 08:13:09 AM »

I know plenty of clergy whose formal training was minimal. They were trained on-the-job, so to speak.
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« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2011, 10:47:39 AM »

Does that answer your question?

Quote
In summary, then, the earliest equipment for Christian leadership―over and above the basic
religious experience and knowledge common to all―was to be found in charismatic gift,
practical experience at lower levels of responsibility and the personal guidance and instruction
of men of God who were either themselves in the front line of Christian service―as
Bishops―or who were specially set apart for the task of giving instruction and leadership.

Not sure your source agrees with you. "charismatic gift, practical experience, and personal guidance"

Why are you so fervent to diminish the role of the charismatic gift and these other methods in favor of academics?

Why are you so fervent that academic training smothers these other methods?  They should all work in concert.  Just because someone has a nice voice and vibrant personality doesn't mean that they know the difference between Communion and grape juice with crackers.  At the same time, all the academic training in the world won't make someone who can give wise guidance to his flock. 

If you want an illiterate priest you'll have to wait a generation or two for our early educational system to degrade some more.  At the moment there is nothing wrong with requiring a priest to actually attend college and be able hold his own against the Jesuits and Falwellians (Lynchburg, VA might just be the scariest town in America, at least after Celebration, FL).
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« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2011, 11:23:48 AM »

In this day and age, in order for a priest to truly be a pastor, administrator and teacher, he has to have a properly grounded education in order to support his vocation. I have seen too many ill-prepared men either ordained by our Bishops for one reason or another or received from another jurisdiction or denomination  by them without first ensuring that they have a full and complete understanding of Orthodoxy.

The only way to achieve that is through education. Honestly, many of us have exchanged private messages among ourselves asking each other what kind of pastoral guidance and education are some of our Orthodox faithful receiving based upon some of the discussions that occur here?

Yes it is true that the Orthodox clergy were not 'seminary' educated as a whole prior to the 19th century in much of Europe. They found themselves at a distinct disadvantage when confronted across the Austro-Hungarian Empire by the Latin and Greek Catholic clergy who were trained in formal schools, particularly when facing the Jesuits.

I like the example of Lynchburg, Virginia, as that is a 21st analogy to what I referenced in 17th and 18th century central Europe.

It is easy to learn how to 'play' priest and act 'mysterious', it is far harder and a far greater vocation to learn how to be a proper pastor.

The best priests and bishops that I have had the privilege to know and call my friend are men with a true spiritual vocation, i.e. the 'charismatic gift' and a well founded education. It is not necessary to be a Ph.D. or a scholar, that's not the point, but it is necessary to be properly trained so that one can propagate the faith and educate the youth.
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« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2011, 03:56:31 PM »

Not sure your source agrees with you. "charismatic gift, practical experience, and personal guidance"

Why are you so fervent to diminish the role of the charismatic gift and these other methods in favor of academics?

Why not read the source for the source for yourself and eliminate any bias introduced by the article that I cited earlier:

Fliche, A., and V. Martin, eds. Histoire de l'Eglise, vols. 1-4. Paris: Bloud et Gay, 1934-37. The first two volumes have been translated by E.C. Messenger and published as J. Lebreton and J. Zeiller, The History of the Primitive Church, 4 vols, London: Burns, Oates and Washbourne, 19421948; and the third as J.R. Palanque (etc.), The Church on the Christian Roman Empire, 2 vols., 1949 1952.
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« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2011, 10:11:33 PM »

Not sure your source agrees with you. "charismatic gift, practical experience, and personal guidance"

Why are you so fervent to diminish the role of the charismatic gift and these other methods in favor of academics?

Why not read the source for the source for yourself and eliminate any bias introduced by the article that I cited earlier:

Fliche, A., and V. Martin, eds. Histoire de l'Eglise, vols. 1-4. Paris: Bloud et Gay, 1934-37. The first two volumes have been translated by E.C. Messenger and published as J. Lebreton and J. Zeiller, The History of the Primitive Church, 4 vols, London: Burns, Oates and Washbourne, 19421948; and the third as J.R. Palanque (etc.), The Church on the Christian Roman Empire, 2 vols., 1949 1952.

I thought you may know something new that would have changed the conventional thinking. As your sources are over 60 years old and out of print, I am confident the convential wisdom still stands. That is that seminaries only came into wide use during the counter-reformation to correct the abuses found in the Roman Catholic Church. The first Orthodox seminaries coming into use from Roman Catholic influence. These were first found in Serbia and Kiev and taught in Latin.
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« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2011, 01:04:02 AM »

Not sure your source agrees with you. "charismatic gift, practical experience, and personal guidance"

Why are you so fervent to diminish the role of the charismatic gift and these other methods in favor of academics?

Why not read the source for the source for yourself and eliminate any bias introduced by the article that I cited earlier:

Fliche, A., and V. Martin, eds. Histoire de l'Eglise, vols. 1-4. Paris: Bloud et Gay, 1934-37. The first two volumes have been translated by E.C. Messenger and published as J. Lebreton and J. Zeiller, The History of the Primitive Church, 4 vols, London: Burns, Oates and Washbourne, 19421948; and the third as J.R. Palanque (etc.), The Church on the Christian Roman Empire, 2 vols., 1949 1952.

I thought you may know something new that would have changed the conventional thinking. As your sources are over 60 years old and out of print, I am confident the convential wisdom still stands.

Did we really answer the OP's question or create more confusion for him?   Huh

That is that seminaries only came into wide use during the counter-reformation to correct the abuses found in the Roman Catholic Church. The first Orthodox seminaries coming into use from Roman Catholic influence. These were first found in Serbia and Kiev and taught in Latin.

You claim that Seminaries are 450 years old, give or take, and have a basis in Latin Scholasticism which is around 900 years old, give or take?   Huh
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« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2011, 03:51:56 AM »

I only have one question, why are the demons purple? Has anyone gotten visual confirmation of this?  laugh
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« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2011, 05:45:37 PM »

Not sure your source agrees with you. "charismatic gift, practical experience, and personal guidance"

Why are you so fervent to diminish the role of the charismatic gift and these other methods in favor of academics?

Why not read the source for the source for yourself and eliminate any bias introduced by the article that I cited earlier:

Fliche, A., and V. Martin, eds. Histoire de l'Eglise, vols. 1-4. Paris: Bloud et Gay, 1934-37. The first two volumes have been translated by E.C. Messenger and published as J. Lebreton and J. Zeiller, The History of the Primitive Church, 4 vols, London: Burns, Oates and Washbourne, 19421948; and the third as J.R. Palanque (etc.), The Church on the Christian Roman Empire, 2 vols., 1949 1952.

I thought you may know something new that would have changed the conventional thinking. As your sources are over 60 years old and out of print, I am confident the convential wisdom still stands.

Did we really answer the OP's question or create more confusion for him?   Huh

That is that seminaries only came into wide use during the counter-reformation to correct the abuses found in the Roman Catholic Church. The first Orthodox seminaries coming into use from Roman Catholic influence. These were first found in Serbia and Kiev and taught in Latin.

You claim that Seminaries are 450 years old, give or take, and have a basis in Latin Scholasticism which is around 900 years old, give or take?   Huh

I am truly sorry, SolEx, that you have difficulty understanding the conversation. There is an important distinction between the existence of Roman Catholic seminaries and the clerical scholasticism of the middle ages versus their wide use within the Roman Catholic Church. The Council of Trent which marks the counter-reformation movement mandated that every Roman Catholic Diocese have a seminary. This was necessary for the proper reformation of Papal clergy to curb the abuses exposed from the Protestant schism 30 years earlier.

In regards to Orthodox Christian Seminaries the first ones appeared in Serbia and Kiev around the turn of the 19th century and were taught in Latin from the influence of the Roman Catholic Church. Prior to this, Orthodox priests were generally developed through charismatic gift, practical experience, and personal guidance.

The school in Constantinople during the Byzantine Empire was secular in nature. The fact that some of its graduates became clerks for bureaucratic administration within the Church and Empire should not be confused with a seminary's role of training clergy for the service of God. After the crusades sacked Constantinople the School survived under new Church control but still maintained its same purpose of general education and the training of bureaucrats.

To answer the OP again, a Bishop has great latitude in choosing his own methods of developing clergy and although most today prefer the academic approach of seminaries some still hold to the ancient Church Tradition of charismatic gift, practical experience, and personal guidance.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 05:47:10 PM by Dart » Logged
pensateomnia
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« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2011, 08:09:26 PM »

While not called "seminaries" there were schools in Alexandria, Antioch, and Rome that specialized in Christian education for priests dating back to at least the 2nd century.  Also, monasteries served the same purposes dating back to the 4th century.  The only innovation is the word "seminary".

Please give sources for these Orthodox seminaries or theological schools.

Just read Henri Marrou's magnum opus on the history of education. That will get you started. Education (paideia) was highly valued in Christian antiquity, and presbyters or bishops, in particular, were typically expected to have completed comparatively high levels of study. There were many Christian schools, based in cathedrals and monasteries, with curricula written by such luminaries as Basil the Great, Gregory the Theologian, Jerome, etc. Considering the society at large was generally illiterate, this sort of educational attainment would be equivalent to graduate work nowadays. In the case of many priests, about what we would think of as a Masters (to use less anachronistic terms, the level of a cultured gentleman), and in the case of priests or bishops in more civilized areas, a PhD.

Of course, there were plenty of members of the provincial parish clergy who had a more rudimentary education (perhaps equivalent to what we would now think of as High School). But the historical record does not indicate they were any more likely to be "charismatic" or "spiritual." In fact, such rustic clergy (often part-time tradesmen in the fourth and fifth centuries) were just as likely to be a source of theological error and corruption, prompting councils to issue corrective measures. For an excellent study of this and related questions of clerical training and status, at least in late antique Asia Minor (where there were 10,000 clergy at any given time, so not an insignificant sample), see Hübner (2005) Der Klerus in der Gesellschaft des spaetantiken Kleinasiens.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 08:39:58 PM by pensateomnia » Logged

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