OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 20, 2014, 08:41:53 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: silly: Hummus is lenten?  (Read 5289 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« on: March 11, 2011, 03:38:52 PM »

Silly question, but how many of you all consider hummus lenten? As a long time maker of my own hummus, olive oil is a main ingredient (won't even get into the whether other oily, fatty foods like tahini are also not in the spirit of lent).

Was kinda surprised at the number of folks saying lent is nice because of all the varieties of hummus.

Again won't even get into people avoiding olive oil and butter and eating peanut butter. (Although I just did)
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2011, 03:44:27 PM »

I've made and bought hummus without olive oil--or any oil.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
IsmiLiora
Chronic Exaggerator
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: One step closer!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (GOA)
Posts: 3,434


Back by unpopular demand.


« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2011, 03:50:43 PM »

I've made and bought hummus without olive oil--or any oil.
Did you water it down or just use the chickpeas and tahini?

We usually use oil and I was trying to talk my husband into trying to water it down, but he didn't want waste tahini (it's pretty expensive around here).

We don't normally buy tahnini, but most of the commercial hummus had olive oil, as I remember.

And we eat peanut butter in moderation.

On your point of tahini: we discussed with the priest how it's interesting that fish isn't allowed, but that foods like lobster and shrimp, which are allowed, are seen as indulgences today (yes, he told us about the no blood rule!). It becomes nitpicking to think about that too much because in America, we should probably fast from junk food, meat, and soda if we wanted to really address decadence. But we're relying on the fast set before us and that's how it is.
Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
--
"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
--
I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,177



WWW
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2011, 03:57:53 PM »


Again....Lent is what you make of it.

Nobody says you can't stop drinking pop, etc.  Everyone knows what they personally crave, and should avoid it, even if it is Lenten.



« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 04:00:29 PM by LizaSymonenko » Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2011, 04:12:02 PM »


Again....Lent is what you make of it.

Nobody says you can't stop drinking pop, etc.  Everyone knows what they personally crave, and should avoid it, even if it is Lenten.
This is my point on a many threads. I've eaten "lenten" for years at times. While out of secular discpline, denying the pleasures and comforts and going hungry wasn't part of the deal.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Thankful
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 263



« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2011, 02:02:09 AM »

Agreeing with the one who replied above -- I make hummus and never add oil. I use the juice from the garbanzo beans to thin it out. The other ingredients are tahini, lemon juice, garlic, a little salt and yeast flakes. It's delish.
Logged

fishercat
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 12



« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2011, 12:23:41 PM »

Agreeing with the one who replied above -- I make hummus and never add oil. I use the juice from the garbanzo beans to thin it out. The other ingredients are tahini, lemon juice, garlic, a little salt and yeast flakes. It's delish.

Yeah, the local Bulgarian store here has hummus without oil. It has a ton of lemon juice.
Logged
Xenia
Harmless Little Fuzzball
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 136



« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2011, 12:47:03 PM »

I make hummus with garbanzo beans,  tahini,  garlic (plenty),  lemon juice and salt.  If it's too thick I add a little water.  Even when it's not Lent I don't use any oil.   If I accidentally burn the beans, as happens almost every time,  it gives the hummus a nice smoky flavor. Smiley
Logged
David Garner
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 292



WWW
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2011, 01:06:20 PM »

How does everyone make it?  Is a food processor a must, or can you do it with a blender?

Thanks in advance.
Logged

fishercat
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 12



« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2011, 01:08:38 PM »

How does everyone make it?  Is a food processor a must, or can you do it with a blender?

Thanks in advance.


If you use plenty of liquid a blender can be used, but usually I have to pulse and every few seconds push the mixture down with a spatula.
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,091


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2011, 01:32:24 PM »

Again won't even get into people avoiding olive oil and butter and eating peanut butter. 

This statement fascinates me.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
David Garner
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 292



WWW
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2011, 01:34:49 PM »

How does everyone make it?  Is a food processor a must, or can you do it with a blender?

Thanks in advance.


If you use plenty of liquid a blender can be used, but usually I have to pulse and every few seconds push the mixture down with a spatula.

Thanks -- that's about as I would have guessed.
Logged

FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2011, 01:39:23 PM »

It is good to read how many folks there are who make a fasting hummus. Especially in the Great Lent, warm pita with oil-free hummus is something I savor.


On your point of tahini: we discussed with the priest how it's interesting that fish isn't allowed, but that foods like lobster and shrimp, which are allowed, are seen as indulgences today (yes, he told us about the no blood rule!).

When I first came into the Chruch, the priest who taught me to fast also taught me the "Fr Taso Rule": if what you are considering eating is a fasting food but normally something that would be like a celebration, then it is also off the menu due to the celebratory nature.

That answers the lobster and crab question, since at least where I am those are celebratory meals. Fortunately shrimp and crawfish are common enough down here that those aren't especially 'special' so those foods coukld wind up on my plate.
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,068


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2011, 02:15:23 PM »

I thought I was going to read a silly joke about hummus and lent coming here.

We have a tradition among our family.  One time there was controversy over boca burgers and soymilk as being "fasting foods."  My sister and I tasted them.  We agreed they tasted like "fasting," i.e. they'd be thrown away as soon as fasting is over... Tongue

Something else you might like to know.  OO's alone seem to have diverse abstinence of food rules.  I think this teaches us something:
1.  What do we abstain in common
2.  What do each culture abstain in extra that seem to cause a dent in something pleasureful for that particular culture (or the lack of abstinence that shows a lack of anything of real pleasure to that particular food)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 02:16:02 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2011, 05:05:20 PM »

Silly question, but how many of you all consider hummus lenten? As a long time maker of my own hummus, olive oil is a main ingredient (won't even get into the whether other oily, fatty foods like tahini are also not in the spirit of lent).

Was kinda surprised at the number of folks saying lent is nice because of all the varieties of hummus.

Again won't even get into people avoiding olive oil and butter and eating peanut butter. (Although I just did)

my hummus has soybean and/or canola oil...

btw, I find garlic triscuits to be particularly complementary with hummus...
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 05:10:25 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2011, 11:28:30 PM »

Silly question, but how many of you all consider hummus lenten? As a long time maker of my own hummus, olive oil is a main ingredient (won't even get into the whether other oily, fatty foods like tahini are also not in the spirit of lent).

Was kinda surprised at the number of folks saying lent is nice because of all the varieties of hummus.

Again won't even get into people avoiding olive oil and butter and eating peanut butter. (Although I just did)

my hummus has soybean and/or canola oil...

btw, I find garlic triscuits to be particularly complementary with hummus...

So what is the magical difference between oil from an olive than than of a soybean or a rapeseed? Other than the fact that the first is good to neutral for your health and the latter pretty much garbage since they are high in PUFAs and extracted via processes which pretty much oxidize them to . . . .
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 11:28:56 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2011, 11:29:52 PM »

It is good to read how many folks there are who make a fasting hummus. Especially in the Great Lent, warm pita with oil-free hummus is something I savor.


On your point of tahini: we discussed with the priest how it's interesting that fish isn't allowed, but that foods like lobster and shrimp, which are allowed, are seen as indulgences today (yes, he told us about the no blood rule!).

When I first came into the Chruch, the priest who taught me to fast also taught me the "Fr Taso Rule": if what you are considering eating is a fasting food but normally something that would be like a celebration, then it is also off the menu due to the celebratory nature.

That answers the lobster and crab question, since at least where I am those are celebratory meals. Fortunately shrimp and crawfish are common enough down here that those aren't especially 'special' so those foods coukld wind up on my plate.

Father, well said. Thank you.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
LBK
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,139


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2011, 11:43:11 PM »

The way I came to understand it, oil is oil, whether olive, sunflower, canola, soy, peanut, etc. If a no-oil day is called for, that's what it means. NO OIL.

Any oil can be used to make a simple dish more palatable. Therefore the no-oil rule as I've understood it truly elevates the fast to a stricter level. Simply substituting olive oil for some other form of oil on Wednesdays and Fridays just doesn't seem right.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 11:44:09 PM by LBK » Logged
Punch
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,567



« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2011, 12:42:09 AM »

The way I came to understand it, oil is oil, whether olive, sunflower, canola, soy, peanut, etc. If a no-oil day is called for, that's what it means. NO OIL.

Any oil can be used to make a simple dish more palatable. Therefore the no-oil rule as I've understood it truly elevates the fast to a stricter level. Simply substituting olive oil for some other form of oil on Wednesdays and Fridays just doesn't seem right.

<sarcasm alert on> Yes, but since we are acting like the Jews in worrying about what we can and cannot eat, and adding burdens upon ourselves contrary to our Christian freedom, why not follow those rules exactly?  Since they did not have canola oil or hydrogenated vegetable oil at the time the canons were written, the canons could not have spoken about these.  <sarcasm alert off> 
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2011, 03:28:33 AM »

The way I came to understand it, oil is oil, whether olive, sunflower, canola, soy, peanut, etc. If a no-oil day is called for, that's what it means. NO OIL.

Any oil can be used to make a simple dish more palatable. Therefore the no-oil rule as I've understood it truly elevates the fast to a stricter level. Simply substituting olive oil for some other form of oil on Wednesdays and Fridays just doesn't seem right.

Then I would seriously have to read the ingredients on every single product I buy. And this means only the most expensive kinds of peanut butter, no generic stuff allowed.
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2011, 03:30:51 AM »

Silly question, but how many of you all consider hummus lenten? As a long time maker of my own hummus, olive oil is a main ingredient (won't even get into the whether other oily, fatty foods like tahini are also not in the spirit of lent).

Was kinda surprised at the number of folks saying lent is nice because of all the varieties of hummus.

Again won't even get into people avoiding olive oil and butter and eating peanut butter. (Although I just did)

my hummus has soybean and/or canola oil...

btw, I find garlic triscuits to be particularly complementary with hummus...

So what is the magical difference between oil from an olive than than of a soybean or a rapeseed? Other than the fact that the first is good to neutral for your health and the latter pretty much garbage since they are high in PUFAs and extracted via processes which pretty much oxidize them to . . . .

Other than the fact that the canons forbid olive oil specifically, nothing.
Logged
LBK
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,139


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2011, 03:39:52 AM »

Quote
Then I would seriously have to read the ingredients on every single product I buy. And this means only the most expensive kinds of peanut butter, no generic stuff allowed.

There is quite a difference between cooking with oil (baking, frying, sauteeing, or adding oil to lentil soup or salads and vegetables), and dealing with the often tiny amounts in processed food. Heck, even almost all bread made in commercial bakeries contains milk or milk products and some form of shortening. Does this mean we can only eat bread made without these ingredients during Lent? Babies and bathwater.
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2011, 03:41:36 AM »

Quote
Then I would seriously have to read the ingredients on every single product I buy. And this means only the most expensive kinds of peanut butter, no generic stuff allowed.

There is quite a difference between cooking with oil (baking, frying, sauteeing, or adding oil to lentil soup or salads and vegetables), and dealing with the often tiny amounts in processed food. Heck, even almost all bread made in commercial bakeries contains milk or milk products and some form of shortening. Does this mean we can only eat bread made without these ingredients during Lent? Babies and bathwater.

Ok, I'm on board with you here then.
Logged
LBK
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,139


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2011, 03:55:25 AM »

Quote
Other than the fact that the canons forbid olive oil specifically, nothing.

Olive oil is the only oil mentioned, because it was the only edible oil available. Seed and other edible vegetable oils weren't developed until the late 19th century, IIRC. In European societies and cultures which did not have olive oil, their edible shortening was almost always derived from animal sources, such as lard, butter, suet and dripping.
Logged
acts420
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: the Way
Jurisdiction: Jesus the Anointed One
Posts: 310



WWW
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2011, 04:15:11 AM »

My priest told me that an important thing about rules like the lenten rules is not to get legalistic about them.  That would defy the entire point.  I've read some early Fathers, and it seems that many of them had various traditions.  I recall one that even just did no food at all for 3 days before Easter.   I think many of the specific canon rules were developed in part because mankind likes rules, generally, and likes to have a standard to follow.  I think this easily leads to legalism though, and is akin to what happened with the Pharisees and Judaism.  

For me, the goal of fasting is to learn discipline, sacrifice, to get in a proper spiritually-focused mindset, and to also promote health bodily.  I personally think it is silly to disallow a few drops of olive oil and allow tahini, which would contain far more oil.  If you're point is to avoid fat, eat only vegetables.  But it is pointless to just substitute an "allowable" fat for a "disallowed" fat simply because of some canon that isn't even in line with what the earliest Fathers and Apostles followed.

So some days I avoid meat.  Some days I avoid dairy.   Some days, alcohol.  And some days I just avoid food altogether.  But if I am eating that day, I never avoid fats.  It is just what works for me... and I think everyone has to come up with what works for them spiritually and physically.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2011, 04:17:18 AM by acts420 » Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
Opus118
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,604



« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2011, 08:17:14 PM »

Quote
Other than the fact that the canons forbid olive oil specifically, nothing.

Olive oil is the only oil mentioned, because it was the only edible oil available. Seed and other edible vegetable oils weren't developed until the late 19th century, IIRC. In European societies and cultures which did not have olive oil, their edible shortening was almost always derived from animal sources, such as lard, butter, suet and dripping.

You apparently recalled incorrectly. No harm no foul and it would be a logical rationalization.

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/afcm/sesame.html
"Sesame (Sesamum indicum L.) is one of the oldest cultivated plants in the world. It was a highly prized oil crop of Babylon and Assyria at least 4,000 years ago. Today, India and China are the world's largest producers of sesame, followed by Burma, Sudan, Mexico, Nigeria, Venezuela, Turkey, Uganda and Ethiopia. World production in 1985 was 2.53 million tons on 16.3 million acres."

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/26462/the_sesame_seed.html
"(text about hamburger buns deleted)...the sesame seed has a long history of use going back to ancient
 times - -3000 BC. History tells us that the sesame seed is the first recorded seasoning. In the Middle East, in the early civilization of Assyria, sesame oil was born. It was probably the first vegetable oil-well ahead of olive oil. It is known that the Egyptians ground sesame seeds to make flour. The Romans used the sesame seed in making bread. The Chinese have been using the sesame seed for thousands of years."

A lot of the above is hype, olive oil dates back to at least 5000 years (probably earlier), but logic (for anyone that has ground nuts with their high oil content) suggests that nut/seed oils (almonds/sesame) likely preceded olive oil.

Logged
Punch
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,567



« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2011, 11:07:45 PM »

My priest told me that an important thing about rules like the lenten rules is not to get legalistic about them.  That would defy the entire point.  I've read some early Fathers, and it seems that many of them had various traditions.  I recall one that even just did no food at all for 3 days before Easter.   I think many of the specific canon rules were developed in part because mankind likes rules, generally, and likes to have a standard to follow.  I think this easily leads to legalism though, and is akin to what happened with the Pharisees and Judaism.  

For me, the goal of fasting is to learn discipline, sacrifice, to get in a proper spiritually-focused mindset, and to also promote health bodily.  I personally think it is silly to disallow a few drops of olive oil and allow tahini, which would contain far more oil.  If you're point is to avoid fat, eat only vegetables.  But it is pointless to just substitute an "allowable" fat for a "disallowed" fat simply because of some canon that isn't even in line with what the earliest Fathers and Apostles followed.

So some days I avoid meat.  Some days I avoid dairy.   Some days, alcohol.  And some days I just avoid food altogether.  But if I am eating that day, I never avoid fats.  It is just what works for me... and I think everyone has to come up with what works for them spiritually and physically.

This is pretty much how I see things, too.
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
Seraphim98
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 566



« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2011, 12:00:45 PM »

For what it is worth:

I have been told that there is a divergence between the Russian/Slavic fasting tradition and that of Greeks and other Orthodox of the Mediterranean basin. Greeks says the no oil rule applies only to olive oil. To them olive oil has special regard with respect to the life of the Church.  Russians take a harder line saying no oil means no oil of any sort. 

But with respect to other facets of the fast the rules would be hard to keep strictly in far northern cultures such as is found in Siberia and Alaska…prior to the advent of train's, planes, and Walmarts…there's not much in the way of vegetable fare available to eat during lent…so bishops and priests make allowances for the faithful in those circumstances.

With respect to labels, Archbishop Dimitri, of the OCA Diocese of the South didn't care much for the practice per se and said that since things are labeled generally by the proportion of the various items in them, one should not read past the fourth item on the list…after that the amounts of non-permissible ingredients present are too minuscule to fuss about…indeed I think he viewed an over-superciliousness regarding label reading to be a detriment to the soul during great Lent.

With respect to individual practice priests know that individual parishioners vary in their circumstance and capacity for keeping the strict canons of the fast. Our priest recommends talking to him about the fast and one's needs and circumstances and getting guidance rather than just granting oneself economies willy nilly as one will.  Being obedient to the faith as it is given to us is a big part of our Christian experience, not just our Lenten one. So if we can't keep the fast strictly, then let it be with the blessing and guidance of our priest and not just what we determine privately we can or can't do.  Even keeping the feast strictly, if it arrises from the wrong and willful inclinations of the heart can wound the soul rather than heal it.
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2011, 12:43:16 PM »

Quote
Other than the fact that the canons forbid olive oil specifically, nothing.

Olive oil is the only oil mentioned, because it was the only edible oil available. Seed and other edible vegetable oils weren't developed until the late 19th century, IIRC. In European societies and cultures which did not have olive oil, their edible shortening was almost always derived from animal sources, such as lard, butter, suet and dripping.

You apparently recalled incorrectly. No harm no foul and it would be a logical rationalization.

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/afcm/sesame.html
"Sesame (Sesamum indicum L.) is one of the oldest cultivated plants in the world. It was a highly prized oil crop of Babylon and Assyria at least 4,000 years ago. Today, India and China are the world's largest producers of sesame, followed by Burma, Sudan, Mexico, Nigeria, Venezuela, Turkey, Uganda and Ethiopia. World production in 1985 was 2.53 million tons on 16.3 million acres."

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/26462/the_sesame_seed.html
"(text about hamburger buns deleted)...the sesame seed has a long history of use going back to ancient
 times - -3000 BC. History tells us that the sesame seed is the first recorded seasoning. In the Middle East, in the early civilization of Assyria, sesame oil was born. It was probably the first vegetable oil-well ahead of olive oil. It is known that the Egyptians ground sesame seeds to make flour. The Romans used the sesame seed in making bread. The Chinese have been using the sesame seed for thousands of years."

A lot of the above is hype, olive oil dates back to at least 5000 years (probably earlier), but logic (for anyone that has ground nuts with their high oil content) suggests that nut/seed oils (almonds/sesame) likely preceded olive oil.



Ummm trying extracting oil from a sesame seed versus an olive, coconut, or calf sometime. You will see the point being made above.

Nowadays I primarily work in chemistry which revolves around fatty acid extraction methods, shelf life extension, interaction with other chemical agents in common products. Trust me, you probably don't want to be eating too much fat in your diet that is extracted from anything other than an animal, an olive, or a coconut, or maybe a fish (very iffy). If the process cannot be performed cold and the primary make up the oil is of PUFAs it is nearly impossible not oxidize them to a degree that would be less than healthy for human consumption. The degradation of non primary SFAs is quick.

It could be argued that all the hullabalu over hydrogenated oils being used in products is going to lead to worse results.

On the processed PUFAs argument, that is one of the bits of truth that the paleo folks and like have right, although their conclusions are extreme and upshots in how they eat unnecessary, but much better than switching all your frying to rapeseed oil.

Better clarified butter or lard or coconut, if you are going to fry something that has to fried at a relatively high temp.

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
LBK
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,139


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2011, 02:48:04 PM »

Quote
I have been told that there is a divergence between the Russian/Slavic fasting tradition and that of Greeks and other Orthodox of the Mediterranean basin. Greeks says the no oil rule applies only to olive oil. To them olive oil has special regard with respect to the life of the Church.  Russians take a harder line saying no oil means no oil of any sort. 

In my five decades of Orthodox experience, of both Russian and Greek versions, the opposite is true. Russians allow oils which are not olive, Greeks do not allow oil of any sort on oil-free days.  Smiley
Logged
Seraphim98
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 566



« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2011, 04:14:41 PM »

thanks, either I misremembered or perhaps I heard wrong.
Logged
Opus118
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,604



« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2011, 01:14:27 AM »

Ummm trying extracting oil from a sesame seed versus an olive, coconut, or calf sometime. You will see the point being made above.

Quote
If the process cannot be performed cold and the primary make up the oil is of PUFAs it is nearly impossible not oxidize them to a degree that would be less than healthy for human consumption. The degradation of non primary SFAs is quick.

I think we both agree this  particular topic isn't necessarily relevant, but I am curious about your response. If you assumed I have never extracted oil from sesame seeds you would be correct. However I have noticed the oil floating to the top of freshly picked and boiled tomatoes. From what I read sesame oil was extracted from ground seeds with hot water and skimming and continues to be the means of obtaining sesame oil in Sudan and Uganda and previously in small farms of Syria (although simple (cloth) presses were also used (but still with hot water as the immiscible solvent)). I do not know how efficient this procedure is but sesame seeds are 50% (w/w) oil.

I do not think that the comment about about oxidation was meant for me, but in my neck of the woods, boiling water is a good way to get rid of dissolved oxygen in order to prevent oxidation (especially if you are not equipped to bubble in argon). I can certainly rationalize this notion, but if there is an argument against it, it is worth knowing about.

Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2011, 01:36:28 AM »

Quote
I have been told that there is a divergence between the Russian/Slavic fasting tradition and that of Greeks and other Orthodox of the Mediterranean basin. Greeks says the no oil rule applies only to olive oil. To them olive oil has special regard with respect to the life of the Church.  Russians take a harder line saying no oil means no oil of any sort. 

In my five decades of Orthodox experience, of both Russian and Greek versions, the opposite is true. Russians allow oils which are not olive, Greeks do not allow oil of any sort on oil-free days.  Smiley

so no generic peanut butter for the Greeks then, eh?
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2011, 02:15:43 AM »

Ummm trying extracting oil from a sesame seed versus an olive, coconut, or calf sometime. You will see the point being made above.

Quote
If the process cannot be performed cold and the primary make up the oil is of PUFAs it is nearly impossible not oxidize them to a degree that would be less than healthy for human consumption. The degradation of non primary SFAs is quick.

I think we both agree this  particular topic isn't necessarily relevant, but I am curious about your response. If you assumed I have never extracted oil from sesame seeds you would be correct. However I have noticed the oil floating to the top of freshly picked and boiled tomatoes. From what I read sesame oil was extracted from ground seeds with hot water and skimming and continues to be the means of obtaining sesame oil in Sudan and Uganda and previously in small farms of Syria (although simple (cloth) presses were also used (but still with hot water as the immiscible solvent)). I do not know how efficient this procedure is but sesame seeds are 50% (w/w) oil.

I do not think that the comment about about oxidation was meant for me, but in my neck of the woods, boiling water is a good way to get rid of dissolved oxygen in order to prevent oxidation (especially if you are not equipped to bubble in argon). I can certainly rationalize this notion, but if there is an argument against it, it is worth knowing about.



Does an aspect of your profession or a hobby include dealing with fatty acid extraction? Just wondering. When I ain't waking up in the middle of the night to deal some stuff, I will try to reply with a brief but helpful response.

You are correct though in mentioning sesame seed oil as a PUFA that is relatively stable (more due to other parts of the composition of the oil, than the typical extraction method). But it can be "cold extracted", although not efficiently when compared to the other FAs mentioned above.

Anyway busy week, maybe more later.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
LBK
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,139


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2011, 03:21:05 AM »

Quote
so no generic peanut butter for the Greeks then, eh?

 Smiley Smiley Smiley

You must have missed this earlier post of mine:

Quote
There is quite a difference between cooking with oil (baking, frying, sauteeing, or adding oil to lentil soup or salads and vegetables), and dealing with the often tiny amounts in processed food. Heck, even almost all bread made in commercial bakeries contains milk or milk products and some form of shortening. Does this mean we can only eat bread made without these ingredients during Lent? Babies and bathwater.

Logged
Opus118
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,604



« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2011, 11:19:31 AM »

Ummm trying extracting oil from a sesame seed versus an olive, coconut, or calf sometime. You will see the point being made above.

Quote
If the process cannot be performed cold and the primary make up the oil is of PUFAs it is nearly impossible not oxidize them to a degree that would be less than healthy for human consumption. The degradation of non primary SFAs is quick.

I think we both agree this  particular topic isn't necessarily relevant, but I am curious about your response. If you assumed I have never extracted oil from sesame seeds you would be correct. However I have noticed the oil floating to the top of freshly picked and boiled tomatoes. From what I read sesame oil was extracted from ground seeds with hot water and skimming and continues to be the means of obtaining sesame oil in Sudan and Uganda and previously in small farms of Syria (although simple (cloth) presses were also used (but still with hot water as the immiscible solvent)). I do not know how efficient this procedure is but sesame seeds are 50% (w/w) oil.

I do not think that the comment about about oxidation was meant for me, but in my neck of the woods, boiling water is a good way to get rid of dissolved oxygen in order to prevent oxidation (especially if you are not equipped to bubble in argon). I can certainly rationalize this notion, but if there is an argument against it, it is worth knowing about.



Does an aspect of your profession or a hobby include dealing with fatty acid extraction? Just wondering. When I ain't waking up in the middle of the night to deal some stuff, I will try to reply with a brief but helpful response.

You are correct though in mentioning sesame seed oil as a PUFA that is relatively stable (more due to other parts of the composition of the oil, than the typical extraction method). But it can be "cold extracted", although not efficiently when compared to the other FAs mentioned above.

Anyway busy week, maybe more later.

No, I do not deal with fatty acids, and I have forgotten most of what I was taught about them. I work with proteins mostly and oxidation is a constant concern and I have damned many an air bubble to Hell out of frustration. I was intuitively guessing that boiling water would create a non-oxidizing environment and the rising steam would exclude O2 from the surface oil layer (although I do not know the degree of O2 purging and how much this would be offset by an ~8-fold higher reaction rate). The other thing I do not know is the effect of boiling water on free radical formation at the unsaturated double bond(s).

I take it that I should switch from peanut to coconut oil the next time I deep fat fry chicken.

Thanks
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2011, 11:43:25 AM »

Quote
so no generic peanut butter for the Greeks then, eh?

 Smiley Smiley Smiley

You must have missed this earlier post of mine:

Quote
There is quite a difference between cooking with oil (baking, frying, sauteeing, or adding oil to lentil soup or salads and vegetables), and dealing with the often tiny amounts in processed food. Heck, even almost all bread made in commercial bakeries contains milk or milk products and some form of shortening. Does this mean we can only eat bread made without these ingredients during Lent? Babies and bathwater.



But in all honesty, peanut butter is an oil. Anything that is primarily a fat ought to be consider as an oil. Just because it isn't a fluid at room temp should probably have little to do with it. That was my point above.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
LBK
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,139


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2011, 05:33:20 PM »

Quote
But in all honesty, peanut butter is an oil. Anything that is primarily a fat ought to be consider as an oil. Just because it isn't a fluid at room temp should probably have little to do with it. That was my point above.

Well, if you're so het up on the matter, have you asked your priest or bishop about it? Also, do you eat olives or halva during Lent? Food for thought.
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2011, 06:10:10 PM »

Quote
But in all honesty, peanut butter is an oil. Anything that is primarily a fat ought to be consider as an oil. Just because it isn't a fluid at room temp should probably have little to do with it. That was my point above.

Well, if you're so het up on the matter, have you asked your priest or bishop about it? Also, do you eat olives or halva during Lent? Food for thought.

If you read all my posts, you will see I don't care what others do. But I think that in the spirit of the "Old World", where olive oil was part and parcel of the diet and here in America where it is not so much, especially for we hoi polloi, but stuff like peanut butter is and is a comfort food and pretty much all fat, it seems weird to hear of an American fasting from olive oil and butter but eating peanut butter.

It is an intellectual discussion of the spirit of the fast versus the letter. If I had the time, I would go through some of the Fathers writings on the sortsa foods they found helpful to fast from and the reasons.

Food for thought if you will.



 
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Punch
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,567



« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2011, 06:36:45 PM »

My priest actually told me to substitute peanut butter for olive oil during the fast.

Quote
But in all honesty, peanut butter is an oil. Anything that is primarily a fat ought to be consider as an oil. Just because it isn't a fluid at room temp should probably have little to do with it. That was my point above.

Well, if you're so het up on the matter, have you asked your priest or bishop about it? Also, do you eat olives or halva during Lent? Food for thought.

If you read all my posts, you will see I don't care what others do. But I think that in the spirit of the "Old World", where olive oil was part and parcel of the diet and here in America where it is not so much, especially for we hoi polloi, but stuff like peanut butter is and is a comfort food and pretty much all fat, it seems weird to hear of an American fasting from olive oil and butter but eating peanut butter.

It is an intellectual discussion of the spirit of the fast versus the letter. If I had the time, I would go through some of the Fathers writings on the sortsa foods they found helpful to fast from and the reasons.

Food for thought if you will.



 
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2011, 11:56:14 AM »

If one eats peanuts, one makes peanut butter by chewing. Peanut butter is just ground up peanuts. Olive oil, however, is not just ground up olives. Peanuts and peanut butter are not 100 percent fat, but contain protein and fiber, for example. Peanut fat would be peanut oil, which would be extracted specially from peanuts. Anyway, the goal of the fast is not to eliminate all fat. For heaven's sake, beans have some fat in them, too.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 11:57:25 AM by Shanghaiski » Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Thankful
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 263



« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2011, 12:22:06 PM »

If one eats peanuts, one makes peanut butter by chewing. Peanut butter is just ground up peanuts. Olive oil, however, is not just ground up olives. Peanuts and peanut butter are not 100 percent fat, but contain protein and fiber, for example. Peanut fat would be peanut oil, which would be extracted specially from peanuts. Anyway, the goal of the fast is not to eliminate all fat. For heaven's sake, beans have some fat in them, too.

Yes, this is what I've been thinking all along in this thread -- and the same is true of tahini, which is ground up sesame seeds. There's no "extracting of oil" going on. These foods are not oil. If you feel the need to remove the oils from them, buy natural versions and pour the oil off the top before using it.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 12:24:23 PM by Thankful » Logged

FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2011, 12:32:33 PM »

Let's not forget that the fasting typicon presupposes a monastic environment, where the diet is usually without any meat.  They had to hold back on something that they rely on, which was and is olive oil.

I recall visiting monasteries in Greece and saw how much oil they pour on everything.  As an American, I have to admit I was a little grossed out.

However, I was served hummus during fasts, and if you look at 'traditional' lenten recipes cooked outside of monasteries, you will see lots of eggs and butter.  Don't forget the peasants could not get their hens to stop laying during Lent, and peasants don't throw away food.  Same with milk, which had to be preserved quickly (i.e. butter and soft cheeses), which also were eaten.

You can try to keep the letter, or you can understand the spirit of the fast, in which case hummus is fine so long as you don't eat so much you get a tummy ache.  Yes, it is possible!  Wink
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2011, 12:38:40 PM »

Let's not forget that the fasting typicon presupposes a monastic environment, where the diet is usually without any meat.  They had to hold back on something that they rely on, which was and is olive oil.

I recall visiting monasteries in Greece and saw how much oil they pour on everything.  As an American, I have to admit I was a little grossed out.

However, I was served hummus during fasts, and if you look at 'traditional' lenten recipes cooked outside of monasteries, you will see lots of eggs and butter.  Don't forget the peasants could not get their hens to stop laying during Lent, and peasants don't throw away food.  Same with milk, which had to be preserved quickly (i.e. butter and soft cheeses), which also were eaten.

You can try to keep the letter, or you can understand the spirit of the fast, in which case hummus is fine so long as you don't eat so much you get a tummy ache.  Yes, it is possible!  Wink


Pikers. Put those hens on a strict fast and see how many eggs they lay . . .
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2011, 02:14:36 PM »

Quote
However, I was served hummus during fasts, and if you look at 'traditional' lenten recipes cooked outside of monasteries, you will see lots of eggs and butter.  Don't forget the peasants could not get their hens to stop laying during Lent, and peasants don't throw away food.  Same with milk, which had to be preserved quickly (i.e. butter and soft cheeses), which also were eaten.
It was common for my grandparents and the generations before-they had no refrigerators-to still save the eggs for Easter. They would keep them in a cool, dark place like a pantry, oftentimes covered in corn-flour. But eggs were not considered lenten. Not that I really care what someone eats, just as a random fact.
Logged
Tags: Lent fasting 
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.149 seconds with 71 queries.