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Author Topic: Antiochian and ROCA Western Rite Leaders Meet  (Read 4091 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 10, 2011, 07:22:39 PM »

Official News Release
 
Antiochian & ROCOR Western Rite Leaders Meet


On Monday, 14 February, Father Edward Hughes, Vicar General of the Western Rite Vicariate of the Self-Ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America, and his duly appointed assistant, Father John W Fenton, met at the Russian Synod chancery with His Eminence Metropolitan Hilarion (Kapral), First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR); His Grace Bishop Jerome (Shaw), Bishop of Manhattan and vicar of the Eastern-American diocese (ROCOR); and the V. Reverend Anthony (Bondi), Pastoral Vicar for the Western Rite (ROCOR).

This meeting was the first between the hierarchy and leadership of the jurisdictions which oversee all canonical Orthodox parishes in North America which are exclusively Western Rite. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss the present situation, and to compare visions in order to foster cooperation in furthering Western Rite Orthodoxy in America.

During the meeting, several items of mutual interest were discussed including issues relating to the Western Rite in the committees of the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North and Central America; the reception of parishes and clergy from other ecclesial groups; the education of laity in Western Rite parishes; the education of current and future Western Rite clergy; the liturgical norms and usages in the jurisdictions; and the planting of Western Rite missions.

A spirit of fraternal openness permeated the meetings, with the often repeated desire that the Western Rite parishes and clergy of both jurisdictions need to grow closer together. Toward this end, Metropolitan Hilarion encouraged Father Anthony and Father Edward to explore specific ways in which the clergy from both jurisdictions might regularly meet together.

Father Hughes and Father Fenton wish to express their deepest gratitude to Metropolitan Hilarion and Bishop Jerome for their gracious hospitality and for generously sharing their time. Their interest and desire for Western Rite Orthodoxy was inspiring. They also thank Father Anthony (Bondi) for his many kindnesses, and his earnest desire for increased cooperation.

 
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« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2011, 07:42:55 PM »

A real step forward. Slava Bogu! Gloria Dei! Glory to God!
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« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2011, 07:46:39 PM »

Glory to Jesus Christ.

Glory forever.
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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2011, 07:49:08 PM »

Awesome!
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« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2011, 12:59:38 PM »

Source, please.
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« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2011, 01:34:57 PM »

Source, please.

I've got you covered, Fr. Ambrose.  Grin

http://www.antiochian.org/node/25454
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« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2011, 04:45:53 PM »

Source, please.

My source was directly from Fr Anthony (Bondi) who is the Pastoral Vicar for Western Rite in the Russian Church Abroad.


----- Original Message -----
From: Father Anthony
To: Father Anthony
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 8:51 AM
Subject: Antiochian & ROCOR Western Rite Leaders Meet


I shall have a look on the Western Rite List (ROCA) because more than likely someoned has placed it there.

Yes, I see that another priest received the same message from Fr Anthony (Bondi) and he has placed it on Occidentalis
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/message/18765
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« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2011, 04:48:14 PM »

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but is there that high of a need for Western Rite parishes where they are looking to expand?
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« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2011, 04:57:37 PM »

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but is there that high of a need for Western Rite parishes where they are looking to expand?

I wish they'd expand at least to the point of starting a WR mission near my location, however it is that "need" is determined.
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« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2011, 05:13:49 PM »

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but is there that high of a need for Western Rite parishes where they are looking to expand?

Define need.

This continent in general is underserved by Orthodoxy: many areas you still have to drive hours to get to a Church.

WRO is underpromoted: I've known many people who Orthodoxy too exotic and jarring.  I've met many who attend EO Churches who would attend a WRO parish if that were an option.
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« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2011, 05:19:20 PM »

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but is there that high of a need for Western Rite parishes where they are looking to expand?

While I have my reservations about the current WR situation in the US (which I've expressed numerous times, albeit a few years ago), I do think that a fully functioning Orthodox WR would be an aid to many people in this country and in Western Europe.
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« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2011, 05:50:08 PM »

The statement was released jointly by the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate and ROCOR. We appreciate its appearance on this site.

Between the two jurisdictions, there are about 40 Western Rite parishes in the United States. Nearly all have started from the "seed" of a converting group (Episcopalian, Lutheran, Old Catholic, etc.) However, there is certainly a desire to provide sacramental ministry to the Orthodox who desire a Western tradition of the Orthodox Faith, and to attract those who are not Orthodox to consider the Faith via the Western tradition.


Fr John W Fenton
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Priest, Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
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« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2011, 11:05:35 PM »

The statement was released jointly by the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate and ROCOR. We appreciate its appearance on this site.

Between the two jurisdictions, there are about 40 Western Rite parishes in the United States. Nearly all have started from the "seed" of a converting group (Episcopalian, Lutheran, Old Catholic, etc.) However, there is certainly a desire to provide sacramental ministry to the Orthodox who desire a Western tradition of the Orthodox Faith, and to attract those who are not Orthodox to consider the Faith via the Western tradition.


Fr John W Fenton
Assistant to the Vicar General, Western Rite Vicariate
Priest, Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
Lincoln Park MI
frfenton@holyincarnation.org

Dear Father John,

Father Bless,

Thank you for joining OrthodoxChristianity.net.

I hope you can share some of your sermons and thoughts with us for our edification and sanctification.

Respectfully yours in Christ,
Maria
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« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2011, 11:11:40 PM »

Seconded!
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« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2011, 11:34:38 PM »

The statement was released jointly by the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate and ROCOR. We appreciate its appearance on this site.

Between the two jurisdictions, there are about 40 Western Rite parishes in the United States. Nearly all have started from the "seed" of a converting group (Episcopalian, Lutheran, Old Catholic, etc.) However, there is certainly a desire to provide sacramental ministry to the Orthodox who desire a Western tradition of the Orthodox Faith, and to attract those who are not Orthodox to consider the Faith via the Western tradition.


Fr John W Fenton
Assistant to the Vicar General, Western Rite Vicariate
Priest, Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
Lincoln Park MI
frfenton@holyincarnation.org

It is a true blessing to have Fr. John on this forum. Let me officially welcome you on behalf of the entire OC.net team. It is a blessing for this forum to have someone of your knowledge on the Western Rite participating.

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« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2011, 11:58:53 PM »

Yes, especially someone who recognizes the tragedy wherein the Douay Rheims bible is officially banned from usage within the Antiochian WR Vicariate. Someone who appreciates the significance of this and seeks to rectify this situation.

The douay-rheims is the only bible based directly and literally on the latin vulgate translation made by St Jerome in the 400s, the only english language western bible directly influenced by an Orthodox Saint which is still used today. The Douay-Rheims was for 400 years the most accurate, unchanged and traditional Roman Catholic Bible (if one excepts the modifications made by Bishop Richard Challoner) and in that regard far superior to those of the Protestants and closest to the Septuagint.

Welcome, Rev. Fr. John Fenton
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« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2011, 12:08:31 AM »

Yes, especially someone who recognizes the tragedy wherein the Douay Rheims bible is officially banned from usage within the Antiochian WR Vicariate. Someone who appreciates the significance of this and seeks to rectify this situation.

The douay-rheims is the only bible based directly and literally on the latin vulgate translation made by St Jerome in the 400s, the only english language western bible directly influenced by an Orthodox Saint which is still used today. The Douay-Rheims was for 400 years the most accurate, unchanged and traditional Roman Catholic Bible (if one excepts the modifications made by Bishop Richard Challoner) and in that regard far superior to those of the Protestants and closest to the Septuagint.

Welcome, Rev. Fr. John Fenton

Did the AWRV issue a statement banning this translation? I'd be interested in reading it, if so. I hadn't heard of such a thing.
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« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2011, 12:12:47 AM »

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but is there that high of a need for Western Rite parishes where they are looking to expand?

Define need.

This continent in general is underserved by Orthodoxy: many areas you still have to drive hours to get to a Church.

WRO is underpromoted: I've known many people who Orthodoxy too exotic and jarring.  I've met many who attend EO Churches who would attend a WRO parish if that were an option.

Not to sound obtuse, and I probably will, but how do we realistically know that there is a real need, outside of anecdotal evidence?
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« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2011, 12:16:02 AM »

Yes, especially someone who recognizes the tragedy wherein the Douay Rheims bible is officially banned from usage within the Antiochian WR Vicariate. Someone who appreciates the significance of this and seeks to rectify this situation.

The douay-rheims is the only bible based directly and literally on the latin vulgate translation made by St Jerome in the 400s, the only english language western bible directly influenced by an Orthodox Saint which is still used today. The Douay-Rheims was for 400 years the most accurate, unchanged and traditional Roman Catholic Bible (if one excepts the modifications made by Bishop Richard Challoner) and in that regard far superior to those of the Protestants and closest to the Septuagint.

Welcome, Rev. Fr. John Fenton
The Vulgate Translation was done by a (in many ways, barely) Orthodox saint, but the Douay Rheims was not. The Psalms are closer to the LXX only becaue the Orthodox Latin Church, and after it the Vatican, rejected Jerome's Psalter. And the KJV, based on texts received from the Greek Church and not obscured by Jerome's Latin, is of course based directly and literally on the Orthodox New Testament text.  Since the NT was taken directly from the Orhtodox, and not the Vatican, the KJV is directly influenced by Orthodox saints and closer to the Orthodox text.
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« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2011, 12:19:10 AM »

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but is there that high of a need for Western Rite parishes where they are looking to expand?

Define need.

This continent in general is underserved by Orthodoxy: many areas you still have to drive hours to get to a Church.

WRO is underpromoted: I've known many people who Orthodoxy too exotic and jarring.  I've met many who attend EO Churches who would attend a WRO parish if that were an option.

Not to sound obtuse, and I probably will, but how do we realistically know that there is a real need, outside of anecdotal evidence?
A need for Orthodoxy in general, Father, or the WRO in particular?
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« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2011, 12:31:43 AM »

There is no such thing as Western Rite Orthodoxy.  There is such a thing as universal rites of Orthodoxy that developed in the east and west.  The sooner we realize this the better for us all.  Christ is in our midst.  He is an always shall be.
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« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2011, 02:00:54 AM »

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but is there that high of a need for Western Rite parishes where they are looking to expand?

Define need.

This continent in general is underserved by Orthodoxy: many areas you still have to drive hours to get to a Church.

WRO is underpromoted: I've known many people who Orthodoxy too exotic and jarring.  I've met many who attend EO Churches who would attend a WRO parish if that were an option.

Not to sound obtuse, and I probably will, but how do we realistically know that there is a real need, outside of anecdotal evidence?
A need for Orthodoxy in general, Father, or the WRO in particular?

WRO in particular actually.  i was just wondering if it really is a big hang up for people. 
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« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2011, 02:01:21 AM »

There is no such thing as Western Rite Orthodoxy.  There is such a thing as universal rites of Orthodoxy that developed in the east and west.  The sooner we realize this the better for us all.  Christ is in our midst.  He is an always shall be.

yah..but when is the last time the western rites were used in the east?
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« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2011, 02:39:08 AM »

There is no such thing as Western Rite Orthodoxy.  There is such a thing as universal rites of Orthodoxy that developed in the east and west.  The sooner we realize this the better for us all.  Christ is in our midst.  He is an always shall be.

yah..but when is the last time the western rites were used in the east?

Source: http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Amalfion%20Oct%202002.pdf

"Archpriest John Shaw of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad has conclusively demontrated, Western rite liturgy was absent from the Orthodox Church at no time in history...Greek and Athonite-Slav manuscripts from the 11th and later centuries testify to the preservation as an occasional special celebration, of the Canon Missae of St. Gregory I of Rome, in a form called the Liturgy of St. Peter (the Apostle).  Russian Old Believers dwelling in Turkey kept the Western Canon Missae alive in that form until the year 1963. Since 1963 Orthodox communities for which Western rite is a daily observance have carried the torch of Latin Orthodoxy into the 21st century."
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« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2011, 03:16:24 AM »

There is no such thing as Western Rite Orthodoxy.  There is such a thing as universal rites of Orthodoxy that developed in the east and west.  The sooner we realize this the better for us all.  Christ is in our midst.  He is an always shall be.

yah..but when is the last time the western rites were used in the east?

Source: http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Amalfion%20Oct%202002.pdf

"Archpriest John Shaw of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad has conclusively demontrated, Western rite liturgy was absent from the Orthodox Church at no time in history...Greek and Athonite-Slav manuscripts from the 11th and later centuries testify to the preservation as an occasional special celebration, of the Canon Missae of St. Gregory I of Rome, in a form called the Liturgy of St. Peter (the Apostle).  Russian Old Believers dwelling in Turkey kept the Western Canon Missae alive in that form until the year 1963. Since 1963 Orthodox communities for which Western rite is a daily observance have carried the torch of Latin Orthodoxy into the 21st century."

do you happen to know of any studies/manuscripts from 13th-19th c's?

p.s.  this is so cool!  thank you! 
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« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2011, 07:31:29 AM »

Amalfion Benedictine Monastery on Mount Athos

In his Amalfion Western Rite Monastery of Mt Athos, Fr Aidan Keller gives a fascinating history of this Benedictine monastery that existed on Mt. Athos from the tenth to the thirteenth centuries. Today only the tower remains amidst its snake infested ruins. Read the online text here in pdf format:

http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Amalfion%20Oct%202002.pdf

Fr Aidan is a Sarum Rite monk (cum Byzantine Rite) who, with his fellow monk Abbot David, was received into the Russian Church Abroad from the Synod of Milan.  During his years in Milan Fr Aidan worked with such as the now Bishop Jerome of Manhattan (ROCA) on translating the Sarum liturgical books and his Sarum publications are approved for sale at ROCA book outlets.
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« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2011, 08:30:15 AM »

Given that the Western-rite exists outside continental North America albeit in very small quantities - in New Zealand and Australia (AWRV) and Australia, United Kingdom (ROCOR) and although not in any ROCOR directories that I have seen, in the Philippines and Singapore and the Netherlands (ROCOR - Petrochian Paruchia) http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/south-east-asia-missions/ http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/netherlands/ it is to be hoped that the rest of the world is not left out of these discussions in relation to clergy formation, liturgical synergy and mission cooperation for the Western-rite.  Noteworthy are the international efforts in Australia and the UK of Australian priest-monk Fr. Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) of St. Petroc Monastery who is now on missionary work in Great Britain and elsewhere.

In regard to ROCOR one wonders whether the Pastoral Vicar for the Western-rite of ROCOR should have a role to play in the rest of the ROCOR WR world, because I would have thought that achieving such synergy should occur within both ROCOR and the AWRV outside the US?

It would be useful to see shared vision for the monastic life of the Western-rite.  ROCOR has strong Benedictine communities while Benedictine spirituality in present in the AWRV in an Oblate order http://www.saintlaurenceosb.org/monastic.html.  ROCOR also has Columban monks in the US and UK and a novice Columban sister in the UK at the uniquely named Life Giving Spring House. [url]http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/ee-life-giving-spring-house/[url]
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« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2011, 08:36:18 AM »

Interesting. I wonder what they discussed about different liturgical usages. ROCOR's approach to WR is after all somewhat different from that of Antioch.

Hopefully these kind of discussions will lead Antioch to adopt more traditional approach.
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« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2011, 08:44:10 AM »

Interesting. I wonder what they discussed about different liturgical usages. ROCOR's approach to WR is after all somewhat different from that of Antioch.

Hopefully these kind of discussions will lead Antioch to adopt more traditional approach.
Given the still very small size of the Western-rite worldwide - perhaps 60 communities, about a dozen monastics (not counting oblates) and certainly less priests than missions, achieving a degree of uniformity of worship at least to the same degree that one sees in the Byzantine rite is very desirable.
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« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2011, 10:03:41 AM »

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but is there that high of a need for Western Rite parishes where they are looking to expand?

Define need.

This continent in general is underserved by Orthodoxy: many areas you still have to drive hours to get to a Church.

WRO is underpromoted: I've known many people who Orthodoxy too exotic and jarring.  I've met many who attend EO Churches who would attend a WRO parish if that were an option.

Not to sound obtuse, and I probably will, but how do we realistically know that there is a real need, outside of anecdotal evidence?
A need for Orthodoxy in general, Father, or the WRO in particular?

WRO in particular actually.  i was just wondering if it really is a big hang up for people.  

I had a friend you used to say "I can go to the local Greek Orthodox Church, and see half of the local Greeks, and then go to the local Episcopalian and Methodist Churches, and see the other half."  Given the numbers of those of an Orthodox ethnic background, who cannot be called lapsed or unchurched because they do go to church, and the numbers of those who can't convert because they can't relate to someone else's ethnocentrism, yes it is a really big hang up for some people.  Not all, Father, but a good number.
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« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2011, 10:57:19 AM »

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but is there that high of a need for Western Rite parishes where they are looking to expand?

Define need.

This continent in general is underserved by Orthodoxy: many areas you still have to drive hours to get to a Church.

WRO is underpromoted: I've known many people who Orthodoxy too exotic and jarring.  I've met many who attend EO Churches who would attend a WRO parish if that were an option.

Not to sound obtuse, and I probably will, but how do we realistically know that there is a real need, outside of anecdotal evidence?
A need for Orthodoxy in general, Father, or the WRO in particular?

WRO in particular actually.  i was just wondering if it really is a big hang up for people.  

I had a friend you used to say "I can go to the local Greek Orthodox Church, and see half of the local Greeks, and then go to the local Episcopalian and Methodist Churches, and see the other half."  Given the numbers of those of an Orthodox ethnic background, who cannot be called lapsed or unchurched because they do go to church, and the numbers of those who can't convert because they can't relate to someone else's ethnocentrism, yes it is a really big hang up for some people.  Not all, Father, but a good number.

Interesting.  Now I know that this goes into a WHOLE other topic, and If I detract too much from the OP, please forgive, but can't we say that there's a "better solution" than just what may be considered a "quick fix" by placating people's sensibilities through something "familiar"...?  I'm TOTALLY not even approaching this pastorally, but rather trying to think out loud about a problem/issue that I DEFINITELY know that I don't fully understand. 

Probably what the crux of my question is:  when does conversion happen and how does placating/meeting them half-way end.  To be blunt...lol. 
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« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2011, 11:58:07 AM »

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but is there that high of a need for Western Rite parishes where they are looking to expand?

Define need.

This continent in general is underserved by Orthodoxy: many areas you still have to drive hours to get to a Church.

WRO is underpromoted: I've known many people who Orthodoxy too exotic and jarring.  I've met many who attend EO Churches who would attend a WRO parish if that were an option.

Not to sound obtuse, and I probably will, but how do we realistically know that there is a real need, outside of anecdotal evidence?
A need for Orthodoxy in general, Father, or the WRO in particular?

WRO in particular actually.  i was just wondering if it really is a big hang up for people.  

I had a friend you used to say "I can go to the local Greek Orthodox Church, and see half of the local Greeks, and then go to the local Episcopalian and Methodist Churches, and see the other half."  Given the numbers of those of an Orthodox ethnic background, who cannot be called lapsed or unchurched because they do go to church, and the numbers of those who can't convert because they can't relate to someone else's ethnocentrism, yes it is a really big hang up for some people.  Not all, Father, but a good number.

Interesting.  Now I know that this goes into a WHOLE other topic, and If I detract too much from the OP, please forgive, but can't we say that there's a "better solution" than just what may be considered a "quick fix" by placating people's sensibilities through something "familiar"...?  I'm TOTALLY not even approaching this pastorally, but rather trying to think out loud about a problem/issue that I DEFINITELY know that I don't fully understand.  

Probably what the crux of my question is:  when does conversion happen and how does placating/meeting them half-way end.  To be blunt...lol.  
For the Americanized Orthodox, Father, there was no conversion.  They had been Wessternized in every other part of their lives, with the rest of the week bringing Sunday with it.  The ones who had a WRO stayed Orthodox, the ones who didn't, didn't. Whether those who went Episcopalian or Methodist, if they would come back if the WRO was available, I can't say.

Then there were those who converted to an Eastern rite Orthodox Church and then faced with a WRO parish or a Western wannabe Easter rite Orthodox parish (Da Vinci Last Supper over the Royal Doors, Old Man God the Father, Baby Jesus and the Dove, etc), who figured they might as well go for the real thing and went WRO (and are happy for it).

Then there are those mixed marriages I've known (Orthodox and congregatinalist Protestant American) who were married in the Orthodox Church, but settled on the Episcopalians as a compromise between American identity and Eastern exotica.  That ends up all the way, conversion outside the Church.  I've met a few at WRO parishes, who of course, stayed Orthodox and converted the non-Orthodox spouse.

Then there are those who don't want to end up like Jewish proselytes (who have to, according to the Talmud, say "their Fathers," when their correligionists say "our Fathers"), and go through life like step children, adopting someone else's ancestry and heritage, and want to keep what they can of their own. I don't recall seeing veneration of post-schism Western saints among the WRO, but I have seen it amongst the Eastern Rite Orthodox.

When does conversion start? Like with anyone who converts to an Eastern Rite Orthodox Church, with the anathematization of previous heresies.  The WRO Missal doesn't have the XXXIX Articles, and doesn't recognize Anglican orders.  Those who follow the rite of St. Gregory have remained firmer in Orthodoxy than, IMHO, Met. Zizoulas and HAH the EP with all this talk of how to accept the "petrine ministry" as if there ever was such a thing as a "petrine ministry" besides the Orthodox episcopate.  I don't know any WRO who wobble on the IC, but I know several EO who do.

The hierarchs keep on engaging in these talks with the Vatican: does anyone think that they are going to talk the Vatican into adopting the rites of Constaninople?  Is that even being attempted?  If the primates of the Autocephalous Churches are not demanding that bishops who persist in heresy give up their rites, why should we demand it of those WRO who confess the Orthodox Faith?

"From the rising to the setting of the sun the Name of the Lord shall be praised": why should I call the Psalmist a liar, insisting that praise only goes from sunrise in the East until noon?  The Church of the East was content to embrace the West in the Western Captivity.  Why not Western Freedom for those who embrace Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2011, 12:07:57 PM »

First off, I am very glad to see ROCOR and Antioch working together for the glory of God.  Remembering days past and things said before the Reunion, I am thankful that God has brought us all out of darker days.  I hope this will continue and that our Lord will bring an end to the Calendar Controversy as well so that our brotherhood will be further healed.

Second, I think that the WR represents a unique opportunity to examine our views of Liturgy.  By that, I mean that there are many ancient Traditions, such as the Liturgy of St. James and the Ambrosian Rite, which have been either suppressed or allowed to fall into disuse.  My hope is that these liturgies can also be restored to common usage.

Has the WR movement ever considered using the Ambrosian Rite?
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« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2011, 12:12:37 PM »

I can tell you first hand that it is a hang up for some people.  My middle son is one of them.  He is an American and his language is English.  He can walk into any Lutheran Church in the area and be surrounded by people from the same culture and speaking the same language that he does.  And not being a theologian, he has no understanding of the differences in belief between the Orthodox and the Lutherans.  At his level, he believes in the same Jesus now as an Orthodox Christian than he ever has.  He is not unique, as I have had this same discussion with several people, including some currently in the Western Rite.  Even myself, as a hard core Russophile and one who loves the Liturgy and the Russian music, can say this:  If the Lutheran Church found itself in communion with Moscow tomorrow, I would be there immediately.  As it is now, the only WR Church in the area is Antiochian, and I have no desire to be under the jurisdiction of Met. Phillip.  But I can also tell you this, Great Lent is the time of the Church Year that I most miss the Lutheran Church and yern the most to return.  I can really see why Anglicans and Catholics would want the Western Rite.  I can also see why some of the "ethnic" Orthodox do not understand this since many see the Orthodox Church here in the West as some kind of ethnic enclave.  For those of us that did not come from their country and are not from their culture, we are left wondering if the Orthodox Jesus is too small to have room for those of us that used to worship him in our own way.

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but is there that high of a need for Western Rite parishes where they are looking to expand?

Define need.

This continent in general is underserved by Orthodoxy: many areas you still have to drive hours to get to a Church.

WRO is underpromoted: I've known many people who Orthodoxy too exotic and jarring.  I've met many who attend EO Churches who would attend a WRO parish if that were an option.

Not to sound obtuse, and I probably will, but how do we realistically know that there is a real need, outside of anecdotal evidence?
A need for Orthodoxy in general, Father, or the WRO in particular?

WRO in particular actually.  i was just wondering if it really is a big hang up for people. 
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« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2011, 01:32:21 PM »

Has the WR movement ever considered using the Ambrosian Rite?

I think Milan Synod and it's American branch is using it
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 01:32:43 PM by Alpo » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2011, 01:29:24 AM »

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but is there that high of a need for Western Rite parishes where they are looking to expand?

Define need.

This continent in general is underserved by Orthodoxy: many areas you still have to drive hours to get to a Church.

WRO is underpromoted: I've known many people who Orthodoxy too exotic and jarring.  I've met many who attend EO Churches who would attend a WRO parish if that were an option.

Not to sound obtuse, and I probably will, but how do we realistically know that there is a real need, outside of anecdotal evidence?
A need for Orthodoxy in general, Father, or the WRO in particular?

WRO in particular actually.  i was just wondering if it really is a big hang up for people.  

I had a friend you used to say "I can go to the local Greek Orthodox Church, and see half of the local Greeks, and then go to the local Episcopalian and Methodist Churches, and see the other half."  Given the numbers of those of an Orthodox ethnic background, who cannot be called lapsed or unchurched because they do go to church, and the numbers of those who can't convert because they can't relate to someone else's ethnocentrism, yes it is a really big hang up for some people.  Not all, Father, but a good number.

Thanks Isa, very informative actually.  You've given me much to think about. 

Interesting.  Now I know that this goes into a WHOLE other topic, and If I detract too much from the OP, please forgive, but can't we say that there's a "better solution" than just what may be considered a "quick fix" by placating people's sensibilities through something "familiar"...?  I'm TOTALLY not even approaching this pastorally, but rather trying to think out loud about a problem/issue that I DEFINITELY know that I don't fully understand.  

Probably what the crux of my question is:  when does conversion happen and how does placating/meeting them half-way end.  To be blunt...lol.  
For the Americanized Orthodox, Father, there was no conversion.  They had been Wessternized in every other part of their lives, with the rest of the week bringing Sunday with it.  The ones who had a WRO stayed Orthodox, the ones who didn't, didn't. Whether those who went Episcopalian or Methodist, if they would come back if the WRO was available, I can't say.

Then there were those who converted to an Eastern rite Orthodox Church and then faced with a WRO parish or a Western wannabe Easter rite Orthodox parish (Da Vinci Last Supper over the Royal Doors, Old Man God the Father, Baby Jesus and the Dove, etc), who figured they might as well go for the real thing and went WRO (and are happy for it).

Then there are those mixed marriages I've known (Orthodox and congregatinalist Protestant American) who were married in the Orthodox Church, but settled on the Episcopalians as a compromise between American identity and Eastern exotica.  That ends up all the way, conversion outside the Church.  I've met a few at WRO parishes, who of course, stayed Orthodox and converted the non-Orthodox spouse.

Then there are those who don't want to end up like Jewish proselytes (who have to, according to the Talmud, say "their Fathers," when their correligionists say "our Fathers"), and go through life like step children, adopting someone else's ancestry and heritage, and want to keep what they can of their own. I don't recall seeing veneration of post-schism Western saints among the WRO, but I have seen it amongst the Eastern Rite Orthodox.

When does conversion start? Like with anyone who converts to an Eastern Rite Orthodox Church, with the anathematization of previous heresies.  The WRO Missal doesn't have the XXXIX Articles, and doesn't recognize Anglican orders.  Those who follow the rite of St. Gregory have remained firmer in Orthodoxy than, IMHO, Met. Zizoulas and HAH the EP with all this talk of how to accept the "petrine ministry" as if there ever was such a thing as a "petrine ministry" besides the Orthodox episcopate.  I don't know any WRO who wobble on the IC, but I know several EO who do.

The hierarchs keep on engaging in these talks with the Vatican: does anyone think that they are going to talk the Vatican into adopting the rites of Constaninople?  Is that even being attempted?  If the primates of the Autocephalous Churches are not demanding that bishops who persist in heresy give up their rites, why should we demand it of those WRO who confess the Orthodox Faith?

"From the rising to the setting of the sun the Name of the Lord shall be praised": why should I call the Psalmist a liar, insisting that praise only goes from sunrise in the East until noon?  The Church of the East was content to embrace the West in the Western Captivity.  Why not Western Freedom for those who embrace Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2011, 01:31:13 AM »

I can tell you first hand that it is a hang up for some people.  My middle son is one of them.  He is an American and his language is English.  He can walk into any Lutheran Church in the area and be surrounded by people from the same culture and speaking the same language that he does.  And not being a theologian, he has no understanding of the differences in belief between the Orthodox and the Lutherans.  At his level, he believes in the same Jesus now as an Orthodox Christian than he ever has.  He is not unique, as I have had this same discussion with several people, including some currently in the Western Rite.  Even myself, as a hard core Russophile and one who loves the Liturgy and the Russian music, can say this:  If the Lutheran Church found itself in communion with Moscow tomorrow, I would be there immediately.  As it is now, the only WR Church in the area is Antiochian, and I have no desire to be under the jurisdiction of Met. Phillip.  But I can also tell you this, Great Lent is the time of the Church Year that I most miss the Lutheran Church and yern the most to return.  I can really see why Anglicans and Catholics would want the Western Rite.  I can also see why some of the "ethnic" Orthodox do not understand this since many see the Orthodox Church here in the West as some kind of ethnic enclave.  For those of us that did not come from their country and are not from their culture, we are left wondering if the Orthodox Jesus is too small to have room for those of us that used to worship him in our own way.

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but is there that high of a need for Western Rite parishes where they are looking to expand?

Define need.

This continent in general is underserved by Orthodoxy: many areas you still have to drive hours to get to a Church.

WRO is underpromoted: I've known many people who Orthodoxy too exotic and jarring.  I've met many who attend EO Churches who would attend a WRO parish if that were an option.

Not to sound obtuse, and I probably will, but how do we realistically know that there is a real need, outside of anecdotal evidence?
A need for Orthodoxy in general, Father, or the WRO in particular?

WRO in particular actually.  i was just wondering if it really is a big hang up for people. 

Yah but can we just leave it at "wow, we're just approaching it from different directions" or can we say one is "better" than the other?  I don't know...but this is something I definitely struggle with. 
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« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2011, 03:32:11 AM »

Has the WR movement ever considered using the Ambrosian Rite?

Or the Mozarabic for that matter.
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« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2011, 04:06:24 PM »

I really do not have a struggle with this since I really believe that East and the early West were approaching things from a different direction.  I don't think that the Bysantine Rite has any particular advantage over some of the early (and really quite beautiful) Western Rites.  In fact, I would love to once again hear God worshiped with "stringed instruments and cymbals" and for us to "Blow the trumpet on the new moon" as written in the Scriptures.

I can tell you first hand that it is a hang up for some people.  My middle son is one of them.  He is an American and his language is English.  He can walk into any Lutheran Church in the area and be surrounded by people from the same culture and speaking the same language that he does.  And not being a theologian, he has no understanding of the differences in belief between the Orthodox and the Lutherans.  At his level, he believes in the same Jesus now as an Orthodox Christian than he ever has.  He is not unique, as I have had this same discussion with several people, including some currently in the Western Rite.  Even myself, as a hard core Russophile and one who loves the Liturgy and the Russian music, can say this:  If the Lutheran Church found itself in communion with Moscow tomorrow, I would be there immediately.  As it is now, the only WR Church in the area is Antiochian, and I have no desire to be under the jurisdiction of Met. Phillip.  But I can also tell you this, Great Lent is the time of the Church Year that I most miss the Lutheran Church and yern the most to return.  I can really see why Anglicans and Catholics would want the Western Rite.  I can also see why some of the "ethnic" Orthodox do not understand this since many see the Orthodox Church here in the West as some kind of ethnic enclave.  For those of us that did not come from their country and are not from their culture, we are left wondering if the Orthodox Jesus is too small to have room for those of us that used to worship him in our own way.

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but is there that high of a need for Western Rite parishes where they are looking to expand?

Define need.

This continent in general is underserved by Orthodoxy: many areas you still have to drive hours to get to a Church.

WRO is underpromoted: I've known many people who Orthodoxy too exotic and jarring.  I've met many who attend EO Churches who would attend a WRO parish if that were an option.

Not to sound obtuse, and I probably will, but how do we realistically know that there is a real need, outside of anecdotal evidence?
A need for Orthodoxy in general, Father, or the WRO in particular?

WRO in particular actually.  i was just wondering if it really is a big hang up for people. 

Yah but can we just leave it at "wow, we're just approaching it from different directions" or can we say one is "better" than the other?  I don't know...but this is something I definitely struggle with. 
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« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2011, 04:23:19 PM »

I can tell you first hand that it is a hang up for some people.  My middle son is one of them.  He is an American and his language is English.  He can walk into any Lutheran Church in the area and be surrounded by people from the same culture and speaking the same language that he does.  And not being a theologian, he has no understanding of the differences in belief between the Orthodox and the Lutherans.  At his level, he believes in the same Jesus now as an Orthodox Christian than he ever has.  He is not unique, as I have had this same discussion with several people, including some currently in the Western Rite.  Even myself, as a hard core Russophile and one who loves the Liturgy and the Russian music, can say this:  If the Lutheran Church found itself in communion with Moscow tomorrow, I would be there immediately.  As it is now, the only WR Church in the area is Antiochian, and I have no desire to be under the jurisdiction of Met. Phillip.  But I can also tell you this, Great Lent is the time of the Church Year that I most miss the Lutheran Church and yern the most to return.  I can really see why Anglicans and Catholics would want the Western Rite.  I can also see why some of the "ethnic" Orthodox do not understand this since many see the Orthodox Church here in the West as some kind of ethnic enclave.  For those of us that did not come from their country and are not from their culture, we are left wondering if the Orthodox Jesus is too small to have room for those of us that used to worship him in our own way.

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but is there that high of a need for Western Rite parishes where they are looking to expand?

Define need.

This continent in general is underserved by Orthodoxy: many areas you still have to drive hours to get to a Church.

WRO is underpromoted: I've known many people who Orthodoxy too exotic and jarring.  I've met many who attend EO Churches who would attend a WRO parish if that were an option.

Not to sound obtuse, and I probably will, but how do we realistically know that there is a real need, outside of anecdotal evidence?
A need for Orthodoxy in general, Father, or the WRO in particular?

WRO in particular actually.  i was just wondering if it really is a big hang up for people. 

Yah but can we just leave it at "wow, we're just approaching it from different directions" or can we say one is "better" than the other? 
Better for whom?
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« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2011, 04:44:30 PM »

Has the WR movement ever considered using the Ambrosian Rite?

I think Milan Synod and it's American branch is using it

Good that this rite is being used again, it's absolutely beautiful.


Sad that the group using it is uncanonical...but it gives me hope that canonical Latin Orthodox may use it at some point.
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« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2011, 04:53:59 PM »

I can tell you first hand that it is a hang up for some people.  My middle son is one of them.  He is an American and his language is English.  He can walk into any Lutheran Church in the area and be surrounded by people from the same culture and speaking the same language that he does.  And not being a theologian, he has no understanding of the differences in belief between the Orthodox and the Lutherans.  At his level, he believes in the same Jesus now as an Orthodox Christian than he ever has.  He is not unique, as I have had this same discussion with several people, including some currently in the Western Rite.  Even myself, as a hard core Russophile and one who loves the Liturgy and the Russian music, can say this:  If the Lutheran Church found itself in communion with Moscow tomorrow, I would be there immediately.  As it is now, the only WR Church in the area is Antiochian, and I have no desire to be under the jurisdiction of Met. Phillip.  But I can also tell you this, Great Lent is the time of the Church Year that I most miss the Lutheran Church and yern the most to return.  I can really see why Anglicans and Catholics would want the Western Rite.  I can also see why some of the "ethnic" Orthodox do not understand this since many see the Orthodox Church here in the West as some kind of ethnic enclave.  For those of us that did not come from their country and are not from their culture, we are left wondering if the Orthodox Jesus is too small to have room for those of us that used to worship him in our own way.

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but is there that high of a need for Western Rite parishes where they are looking to expand?

Define need.

This continent in general is underserved by Orthodoxy: many areas you still have to drive hours to get to a Church.

WRO is underpromoted: I've known many people who Orthodoxy too exotic and jarring.  I've met many who attend EO Churches who would attend a WRO parish if that were an option.

Not to sound obtuse, and I probably will, but how do we realistically know that there is a real need, outside of anecdotal evidence?
A need for Orthodoxy in general, Father, or the WRO in particular?

WRO in particular actually.  i was just wondering if it really is a big hang up for people. 

Yah but can we just leave it at "wow, we're just approaching it from different directions" or can we say one is "better" than the other? 
Better for whom?

That's part of what i'm trying to figure out.  But in my initial meaning I was wondering:  better for the converts/those who would want a WRO church.  Would a "regular" OC be better for them, or is it more about the "spirit" of orthodoxy in this case, rather than the exterior (which I would argue is a crucial part of the interior).  Sorry...it really is a big mess in my mind. 
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« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2011, 05:43:09 PM »

Better for them in what way, serb1389?
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« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2011, 06:17:33 PM »

Has the WR movement ever considered using the Ambrosian Rite?

Or the Mozarabic for that matter.


The Milan Synod has parishes that use both and has for years.
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« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2011, 06:19:25 PM »

Has the WR movement ever considered using the Ambrosian Rite?

Or the Mozarabic for that matter.


The Milan Synod has parishes that use both and has for years.

Does the Milan Synod have a complete Mozarabic Missal and Breviary?
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« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2011, 06:26:58 PM »

Does the Milan Synod have a complete Mozarabic Missal and Breviary?

As a guy who runs one of the few Hispanic Rite missions, the answer is noooooooooo way. Not in the vernacular.

We have the texts complete in English and Spanish for the Sunday services, and Common Masses, as well as certain periods such as Holy Week. For the time being we substitute the Latin Little Hours of the Blessed Virgin for the third preceding and sixth succeeding hour, because it simply takes a long time to do translate, check, et cetera, each form, the Latin text, the other Latin text....

As for why use the Little Hours it is because a form of same were used in Spain by St Idelfonsus. I realize it's a "Romanization", and we have Ash Wednesday too even though technically that renders Meatfare incomprehensible (sometimes conformity among our Western Rite, Old Calendarist minority is better than your Bishop saying "wha..." as you attempt to explain this or that odd concept).
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« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2011, 06:34:57 PM »

Does the Milan Synod have a complete Mozarabic Missal and Breviary?

As a guy who runs one of the few Hispanic Rite missions, the answer is noooooooooo way. Not in the vernacular.

We have the texts complete in English and Spanish for the Sunday services, and Common Masses, as well as certain periods such as Holy Week. For the time being we substitute the Latin Little Hours of the Blessed Virgin for the third preceding and sixth succeeding hour, because it simply takes a long time to do translate, check, et cetera, each form, the Latin text, the other Latin text....

As for why use the Little Hours it is because a form of same were used in Spain by St Idelfonsus. I realize it's a "Romanization", and we have Ash Wednesday too even though technically that renders Meatfare incomprehensible (sometimes conformity among our Western Rite, Old Calendarist minority is better than your Bishop saying "wha..." as you attempt to explain this or that odd concept).

Well, I look forward to the day when we'll have complete published texts! (So, get on it! Smiley ) Thank you for the information.
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