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Author Topic: New film mocks Christianity  (Read 6489 times) Average Rating: 0
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jac109
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« on: May 13, 2004, 07:13:54 AM »

New film mocks Christianity
Media expert: ''SAVED!' is a hateful, politically correct movie'
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38468

A noted movie critic says the new film "Saved!" is a sad, bigoted, anti-Christian movie that mocks the Christian faith.

Ted Baehr, the founder of the Christian Film & Television CommissionGäó ministry has come out swinging against the MGM movie, according to Assist News Service. The film is slated to be released May 28.

"'SAVED!' is a hateful, politically correct movie," Baehr declared. "It is being heavily marketed to the community it mocks to lead Christian youth astray and make them resent their own faith."

The movie, which stars Mandy Moore and Macaulay Culkin, tells the story about self-righteous Christian youths in an uptight Christian school. Baehr urges religious leaders, including Jews and Muslms, to warn their constituents about the movie.

"The one character who tries to preach the Gospel in the movie is actually the villain," Baehr noted. "The heroine Mary, played by Jena Malone, has a vision that Jesus tells her to fornicate with the school hunk in order to save him from homosexuality. At the end, Mary learns that her only true friends are Cassandra, a irreverent Jewish girl who claims to have been a stripper, and the villain's brother, who denies being a Christian and lusts after the stripper."

The movie's website includes phrases alternately shown on the homepage, including: "Got passion? Get Saved! 5:28," a Scripture-like reference to the film's release date. Other phrases are "Let's kick it Jesus style," and "Prayer works, it's been medically proven."

Baehr added: "Cassandra is the real heroine who turns Mary away from the uptight Christian students who believe in faith, values and the power of prayer. Imagine if this movie were set in an Orthodox Jewish school with faithful Jewish children cast as the villains and a Christian girl shows how legalistic the Jewish girls are. Or, what if it were set in an Islamic school with faithful Muslims cast as the villains and a Christian or Jewish girl exposes how legalistic the Muslims are? The outcry in the press would be tremendous! Not to mention the righteous outcry from Jews or Muslims!

"Looking at it from the point of view of other faiths highlights how bigoted the movie 'SAVED!' is and reveals how MGM is marketing it to Christian children to try to divorce them from their faith!"

Brief audio snippets from the film featured on the website include one female character angrily shouting at another: "I'm filled with Christ's love!"
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« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2004, 02:17:39 PM »

This sounds like another 3rd rate anti-Christian movie who's only hope is to get attention from protestors, which will get it media attention.  It's better not to make too much of this movie, as that's probably what the producers of this turd are hoping for.  It's better to let this die in obscurity, rather than bring too much attention to it.
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« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2004, 02:35:58 PM »

Exactly. It's a free country--people have a right to make silly movies like that if they want to.

The battle worth fighting, I think, was for Mel Gibson's freedom to make and distribute the Passion. I'm not as huge a fan of that movie as many Christians I know are, but I still think it will have a far greater impact on our society in the long run than a bit of malicious fluff such as this movie appears to be. As long as we can make movies like the Passion, let them make spiteful teen comedies as much as they like. Free speech for all and trust the Logos to triumph.

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« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2004, 03:01:08 PM »

2nd Century Pagan Graffiti: "Alexamenos worships his god".

I suppose Christians will always be mocked. "Folly to the Greeks", etc.



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« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2004, 03:13:22 PM »

That's precisely how I feel about it.  Christians have been persecuted and mocked from the beginning.  Christ Himself told us during the Beatitudes that we are blessed because we are mocked because of Him.

That's consolation enough for me.  Let secular society have its say, I don't care.  I know the truth and actively share it with others.
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« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2004, 03:28:02 PM »

Does this movie really mock Christianity, or just the pop evangelical sub-culture?  I think for Baehr pop evangelicalism == christianity.  However, if the film is mocking the Left Behinders and every other stupid pop evangelical fad, I'll probably laugh.  The title of the film is "Saved!"  When is the last time an Orthodox or Catholic came up to you and asked, "Are you saved?"  If someone came up to you to ask that question, they would probably have a WWJD bracelet on, and a bumper sticker that says "In case of Rapture, this car will be suddenly empty."
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« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2004, 04:15:24 PM »

Quote
Does this movie really mock Christianity, or just the pop evangelical sub-culture?  I think for Baehr pop evangelicalism == christianity.  However, if the film is mocking the Left Behinders and every other stupid pop evangelical fad, I'll probably laugh.  The title of the film is "Saved!"  When is the last time an Orthodox or Catholic came up to you and asked, "Are you saved?"  If someone came up to you to ask that question, they would probably have a WWJD bracelet on, and a bumper sticker that says "In case of Rapture, this car will be suddenly empty."

LOL  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy  Gotta love the protestors & thier silly mass marketing of christianity.

I once saw a bumper sticker that said, "In case of rapture, can I have your car.? Lips Sealed Lips Sealed Lips Sealed

In regards to the movie, if they make fun of evangelicals without being
blapshemous then I think it might be worth seeing. If they make a general mockery of christianity itself, then I'll be pissed.
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« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2004, 05:20:21 PM »

Exactly. It's a free country--people have a right to make silly movies like that if they want to.

Fifty years ago a movie like this would have never been tolerated. No one would have dared make it.

Now anything goes. Is that progress?
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« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2004, 05:32:53 PM »

80 years ago, A Birth of a Nation was filmed.

That would not be tolerated today.

Six of one, half dozen of the other, I suppose...
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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2004, 05:36:10 PM »

Does this movie really mock Christianity, or just the pop evangelical sub-culture?  I think for Baehr pop evangelicalism == christianity.
 Good question... I was wondering the same thing.

 
Quote
However, if the film is mocking the Left Behinders and every other stupid pop evangelical fad, I'll probably laugh.  The title of the film is "Saved!"  When is the last time an Orthodox or Catholic came up to you and asked, "Are you saved?"  If someone came up to you to ask that question, they would probably have a WWJD bracelet on, and a bumper sticker that says "In case of Rapture, this car will be suddenly empty."
 

Actually, my older son told me that at local interchurch youth events, the Catholic teens have been asking everyone else, "Are you saved?"   Maybe they're doing it to be sarcastic; I don't really know.
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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2004, 01:40:48 AM »

80 years ago, A Birth of a Nation was filmed.

That would not be tolerated today.

Six of one, half dozen of the other, I suppose...

I think its a little different. Birth of a Nation is the only film of its kind. But how many slanderous anti-Christian films and productions have come out in the past 25 years? I think more than a few.
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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2004, 09:20:04 PM »

Birth of a Nation is hardly the "only film of its kind."  The number of racist films are too many to count.  Even the ones that we would think are acceptable today often have a racist underpinning.  Gone with the Wind, for example, implies that slavery wasn't really that bad and blacks were better off under slavery.  

As to how many "anti-Christian" films have been made in recent years, I read an article which suggested that Sex in the City was really all about religion.  It was a weird point but the author mentioned that the main characters in SATC attended several religious services a year while the characters in the 1950's sitcoms never attended church.  Did the Cleavers go to church on sunday?  Not that we could tell.  

I read something published by the SSPX about the dangers of 'glamorizing' 1950's catholicism.  The author suggested that the roots of the post-Vatican II disaster can be found in 1950's America.  In the 'civic religion' of Eisenhower.
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« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2004, 12:11:34 AM »

Birth of a Nation is hardly the "only film of its kind."  The number of racist films are too many to count.  Even the ones that we would think are acceptable today often have a racist underpinning.  Gone with the Wind, for example, implies that slavery wasn't really that bad and blacks were better off under slavery.  

What? Slavery wasn't an issue in Gone With The Wind. I mean would it have made it a better movie if the director had included a few gratuitous scenes of black slaves being whipped or otherwise abused? For what purpose? Just to satisfy some politically correct complainer?

You remind me of the people who whined that Mel Gibson's movie, Patriot, didn't have scenes of slaves being abused. Why should it? Slavery had nothing to do with the plot of the movie.

There are all kinds of movies that have "underpinnings" of one sort or another. Regardless, I don't think the comparison between GWTW and the anti-Christian movies is really valid. In the anti-Christian movies, slandering or mocking Christ is always the central theme.

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« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2004, 12:39:07 AM »

What? Slavery wasn't an issue in Gone With The Wind. I mean would it have made it a better movie if the director had included a few gratuitous scenes of black slaves being whipped or otherwise abused? For what purpose? Just to satisfy some politically correct complainer?

Yeah slavery certainly "wasn't an issue" in a movie about the Civil War with a supporting character who was a slave.  

Quote
You remind me of the people who whined that Mel Gibson's movie, Patriot, didn't have scenes of slaves being abused. Why should it? Slavery had nothing to do with the plot of the movie.

What if this talk about the need for scenes of slaves being abused?  What are you talking about?  

The criticism of Gone With the Wind is that it shows slaves who are happy with being slaves.  The book is more explicit.  The 'good' slaves remain with their white owners after the war because only "uppity" n-word want to be free.  

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« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2004, 03:40:26 AM »

Yeah slavery certainly "wasn't an issue" in a movie about the Civil War with a supporting character who was a slave.  What if this talk about the need for scenes of slaves being abused?  What are you talking about?

Ok, there were slaves, but are you saying that all slaves were abused? And that should have been showed in the movie? Of course, there were abuses, but many slaves were treated much better than people assume.
 
Quote
The criticism of Gone With the Wind is that it shows slaves who are happy with being slaves.  The book is more explicit.  The 'good' slaves remain with their white owners after the war because only "uppity" n-word want to be free.
 

Well, it was a fact that many slaves did stay with their previous owners. Where else would they go?

Back in the 1930s, there was a WPA project where people were sent around to interview ex-slaves. Some were still alive at that time. You might be surprised that many weren't bitter over their slavery experience and even expressed genuine affection for the white people who had owned them. The point is there were good masters and some bad ones. And many slaves were treated with a certain amount of compassion. To say that all slaves were abused is to basically assume that all white people are wicked monsters.

I think one should also watch out trying to apply our present morality to situations that existed many years ago. After all, slavery had been practiced in many places by many different people, and was an institution in Africa long before the Europeans showed up. In fact, I just read a few days ago that slavery wasn't outlawed in Saudi Arabia until the 1950s. There's still slavery being practiced in Africa now - Africans enslaving their fellow Africans. My point is slavery wasn't unique to the US. Also nowhere in the Bible is slavery designated as a sin. Jesus never condemned it. I think he even admonished slaves to obey their masters and for masters to treat their slaves well. So He obviously dealt with the issue.

I wouldn't want to be a slave. No normal person would, but there have been worse things that have happened. At least most of the blacks who made it to the US lived. For many years, in the 1600s and 1700s, England, especially, had been enslaving her poor and shipping them to sugar plantations in Barbados to be worked to death. It was assumed that a person would only last so long, but all England wanted was to be rid of their poor people, so nobody cared. At least the black slaves in the US were seen as a capital investment, so even the worst owners had at least that motivation to take care of them.

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« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2004, 02:18:33 PM »

Bah!..
It's only making fun of Evangelical Protestantism.
I regard this type of thing a Recreational Christianity.

and Evangelicalism needs to made fun of.
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« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2004, 02:21:48 PM »

if it makes anyone feel better...
I thought Jena Malone was cute.
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« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2004, 03:38:19 PM »

My 11 year old daughter has only seen TV ads......She thinks it makes fun of protestants.

Based on her own experiences with kids in the neighborhood who attend a "Christian" school and how they treat her and others, she thinks the movie makes fun of their hypocritical ways. She always laughs when the "I'm filled with Christ's love" scene is aired in the ad. For her it rings a true note.
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« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2004, 05:59:26 PM »

I applaud your daughter.
you've got a smart one there.



My 11 year old daughter has only seen TV ads......She thinks it makes fun of protestants.

Based on her own experiences with kids in the neighborhood who attend a "Christian" school and how they treat her and others, she thinks the movie makes fun of their hypocritical ways. She always laughs when the "I'm filled with Christ's love" scene is aired in the ad. For her it rings a true note.
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« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2004, 06:24:49 PM »

Bah!..
It's only making fun of Evangelical Protestantism.
I regard this type of thing a Recreational Christianity.

and Evangelicalism needs to made fun of.

How charitable.  And if an Evangelical thinks that your church needs to be made fun of?....

How about Christians don't make fun of other Christians for a start?

Ebor
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« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2004, 06:27:26 PM »

but but...
evangelicals aren't Christians..
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« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2004, 06:41:50 PM »

*walks into thread and reads it so far*

Oy vey!

*walks back out*
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« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2004, 10:46:33 AM »

How charitable.  And if an Evangelical thinks that your church needs to be made fun of?....

How about Christians don't make fun of other Christians for a start?

Ebor

It is important to be able to laugh at ourselves...I see no problem with poking fun at Religions, so long at it does not cross that mysterious line into another realm. Humor can be a very useful tool. In order for something to be funny, it must have a seed of truth in it. People who are unable to laugh at themselves and thier own groups are also unable to seriously examine thier own faults and weaknesses.

Being able to laugh at humor that pokes fun at you is a sign of a person who is healthy mentally and spiritualy.
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« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2004, 04:03:20 PM »

Well, since sdcheung, isn't "Evangelical" and seems to hold that they're not Christian, I don't see where he's "laughing at his own group" but at others.

Considering some of the complaints against the Onion Dome that I've read, there are some EO who don't like jesting directed at their group either. I otoh often find it hilarious and get the feeling that the site owner has been reading OC.net and getting ideas.

There are some good jokes/stories from my Church and I heard a bang up one about Jesuits this week.  But they don't sneer at the "other".

Ebor
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« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2004, 04:04:48 PM »

*walks into thread and reads it so far*

Oy vey!

*walks back out*

Good idea, David.  I should  have done that, maybe.

Ebor
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« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2004, 04:47:23 PM »

I mentioned on another thread that I recently listened to a program on EWTN radio.  One of the callers described himself as a "new Christian" and mentioned that he had been raisesd Catholic but was now Southern Baptist.  These fundamentalists deny our Christianity so don't engender much respect from me.  I also think that evangelical fundmentalism is a dangerous cult that hurts more people than it helps.  These people believe in things that are downright soul damaging.  Once saved always saved is an abomination, a permission to sin.  So I won't lose any sleep if someone decides to make fun of their religion.  

If they respected us then perhaps I could respect them, but they don't respect us.
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« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2004, 05:20:15 PM »

Quote
mentioned on another thread that I recently listened to a program on EWTN radio.  One of the callers described himself as a "new Christian" and mentioned that he had been raisesd Catholic but was now Southern Baptist.  These fundamentalists deny our Christianity so don't engender much respect from me.  I also think that evangelical fundmentalism is a dangerous cult that hurts more people than it helps.  These people believe in things that are downright soul damaging.  Once saved always saved is an abomination, a permission to sin.  So I won't lose any sleep if someone decides to make fun of their religion.  

With all due respect Jennifer, I also think what you are saying about our fellow "seperated" christian bretheren is also very "dangerous" as you put it. Your "cult" label also is without merit. I also disagree that fundamentalism hurts more than it helps. I would rather see someone be a practicing "fundamentalist" than someone who has no faith at all. You are making it out as if fundamentalist are some fringe group. I would say that even the most ardanant fundamentalist in this country are very mainstream in thier thinking. Despite thier ignorance of sacramental christianity, I beleive and have seen for myself christ working in these people lives. I would rather worship next to a fundamentalist who shows the fruit of a true christian than an Orthodox/Catholic that merely claims to know it all, but yet has not moved one finger for our Lord.
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« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2004, 06:02:39 PM »

Protestantism is not Christianity. Protestants can be good people and have a great love for God. But so can Muslims and Jews, but we don't consider their religions to be Christian.
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« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2004, 06:07:29 PM »

With all due respect Jennifer, I also think what you are saying about our fellow "seperated" christian bretheren is also very "dangerous" as you put it. Your "cult" label also is without merit. I also disagree that fundamentalism hurts more than it helps. I would rather see someone be a practicing "fundamentalist" than someone who has no faith at all. You are making it out as if fundamentalist are some fringe group. I would say that even the most ardanant fundamentalist in this country are very mainstream in thier thinking. Despite thier ignorance of sacramental christianity, I beleive and have seen for myself christ working in these people lives. I would rather worship next to a fundamentalist who shows the fruit of a true christian than an Orthodox/Catholic that merely claims to know it all, but yet has not moved one finger for our Lord.

I have seen the very negative effects of fundamentalism.  I've seen how fundamentalism ruins peoples' spiritual lives.  What happens to someone's faith in God when things don't work out the way the preacher said they would?  I know a whole group of ex-evangelicals who have absolutely no sympathy for any religion today because of what they saw in the fundamentalist world.  I worked with a woman who belonged to one of those fundamentalist mega-churches.  One of her children had cancer.  Her preacher told her that God promised that he would do anything she asked as long as she was sincere enough.   Her child died and she believed that it was her fault because she didn't pray hard enough.  I knew a woman who believed in once saved always saved who believed she could do anything she wanted because she was "saved" when she was 5.  She was very promiscuous but her preacher told her she didn't need to worry about her soul.  My grandfather was raised in the Pentecostal church.  After he grew up he refused to ever set foot in another church again.  These so-called churches are all well and good when the furor sets in.  But what happens when the 'enthusiasm' is lost?  In my observation, the people leave christianity altogether and move to secularism.  It's no wonder why unitarianism is the child of puritanism.  In my experience someone with no faith at all is more receptive to the truth than someone who has been so hurt so much by fundamentalism that they believe God is some stern judge and all ministers/preachers, etc. are liars.  

I don't know any Orthodox or Catholic who claims to "know it all."  Our faith doesn't encourage that kind of arrogance.  And every Orthodox and Catholic has been baptized into the life and death of Christ so they're sacramentally joined to the Body of Christ and therefore Christ can be working in them in ways that you can't recognize.  I would suggest that you be Orthodox for a little while longer before you presume to judge your Orthodox brethren by your fundamentalist standards.  

These are dangerous cults.  And they're hardly mainstream to people in the mainstream, which as we've discussed before, I don't think you are.  In my experience (and I used to live in a part of the country where Southern Baptists were the majority), these people hold very some very dangerous and hardly mainstream political opinions.  They tend to be militantly zionist.  They tend to support the war in Iraq because they see it as "God's work."  In contrast, look to the pope's recent speech about Iraq for the true christian understanding about the war.  They're not mainstream.  They're very dangerous and unfortunately have too much power and influence in this country.  And if the day ever comes that they achieve the earthly power they seek (which of course they think is their right) then you and I had better watch out.  Of course me more than you because more than anything else they hate the Roman Catholic Church (see that whacko link mentioned in the thread about C.S. Lewis).  
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« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2004, 07:10:50 PM »

They're not mainstream.  They're very dangerous and unfortunately have too much power and influence in this country.  And if the day ever comes that they achieve the earthly power they seek (which of course they think is their right) then you and I had better watch out.  Of course me more than you because more than anything else they hate the Roman Catholic Church (see that whacko link mentioned in the thread about C.S. Lewis).  

Well, I'm not sure they're a bigger threat than the pro-abortion rights, pro-homosexual rights, laissez-faire folks that dominates our academic and media classes.  Nevertheless, I agree that these folks do not have much respect for us.  Having worked in a fundamentalist school briefly, I assure you, they have no more respect for Orthodoxy than for Catholicism, and generally, they fail to recognize any real difference between the two.  It's just that we don't normally figure so much as a blip on their radar screen.
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« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2004, 07:32:26 PM »

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I have seen the very negative effects of fundamentalism.  I've seen how fundamentalism ruins peoples' spiritual lives.  What happens to someone's faith in God when things don't work out the way the preacher said they would?  I know a whole group of ex-evangelicals who have absolutely no sympathy for any religion today because of what they saw in the fundamentalist world.  I worked with a woman who belonged to one of those fundamentalist mega-churches.  One of her children had cancer.  Her preacher told her that God promised that he would do anything she asked as long as she was sincere enough.  Her child died and she believed that it was her fault because she didn't pray hard enough.  I knew a woman who believed in once saved always saved who believed she could do anything she wanted because she was "saved" when she was 5.  She was very promiscuous but her preacher told her she didn't need to worry about her soul.  My grandfather was raised in the Pentecostal church.  After he grew up he refused to ever set foot in another church again.  These so-called churches are all well and good when the furor sets in.  But what happens when the 'enthusiasm' is lost?  In my observation, the people leave christianity altogether and move to secularism.  It's no wonder why unitarianism is the child of puritanism.  In my experience someone with no faith at all is more receptive to the truth than someone who has been so hurt so much by fundamentalism that they believe God is some stern judge and all ministers/preachers, etc. are liars.  

Save us the straw man arguements Jennifer. In my days of protestantism, such stories were very rare to come across. Also being in many different churches I never heard a preacher give anyone an absolute reassurance that God would come through if they were faithful in asking. I'm sure there are a few out there like that, but they by no means represent the large majority. All the protestants I knew would flee from such a preacher that told them such nonsense that God will come through for them if they are just faithful enough.

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I don't know any Orthodox or Catholic who claims to "know it all."  Our faith doesn't encourage that kind of arrogance.  And every Orthodox and Catholic has been baptized into the life and death of Christ so they're sacramentally joined to the Body of Christ and therefore Christ can be working in them in ways that you can't recognize.  I would suggest that you be Orthodox for a little while longer before you presume to judge your Orthodox brethren by your fundamentalist standards.  

Then why are you acting like you "know it all." You are absolute in heaping condemnation on these people. By the way, I'm not judging my Orthodox bretheren by my so called fundamentalist standards. You sound like a fundamentalist yourself by your outward blanket statements of condemning a whole group of people.

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These are dangerous cults.  And they're hardly mainstream to people in the mainstream, which as we've discussed before, I don't think you are.  In my experience (and I used to live in a part of the country where Southern Baptists were the majority), these people hold very some very dangerous and hardly mainstream political opinions.  They tend to be militantly zionist.  They tend to support the war in Iraq because they see it as "God's work."  In contrast, look to the pope's recent speech about Iraq for the true christian understanding about the war.  They're not mainstream.  They're very dangerous and unfortunately have too much power and influence in this country.  And if the day ever comes that they achieve the earthly power they seek (which of course they think is their right) then you and I had better watch out.  Of course me more than you because more than anything else they hate the Roman Catholic Church (see that whacko link mentioned in the thread about C.S. Lewis).  

Thanks for the strawman arguements. Your observations of dire gloom by our seperated protestant bretheren is unfounded. If find the "progressives" in the Catholic church a much bigger threat than any fundamentalist protestant.





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« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2004, 08:12:22 PM »

Well, I'm not sure they're a bigger threat than the pro-abortion rights, pro-homosexual rights, laissez-faire folks that dominates our academic and media classes.  Nevertheless, I agree that these folks do not have much respect for us.  Having worked in a fundamentalist school briefly, I assure you, they have no more respect for Orthodoxy than for Catholicism, and generally, they fail to recognize any real difference between the two.  It's just that we don't normally figure so much as a blip on their radar screen.

They pose the same threat because they are the 'father' of the "pro-abortion rights, pro-homosexual rights..." folks.  Who was it that said that puritanism was the father of unitarianism?  Whoever it was, they were right on the mark.  

Once you reject the authority of the Church then you have no foundation for traditional morality.
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« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2004, 08:28:41 PM »

Save us the straw man arguements Jennifer. In my days of protestantism, such stories were very rare to come across. Also being in many different churches I never heard a preacher give anyone an absolute reassurance that God would come through if they were faithful in asking. I'm sure there are a few out there like that, but they by no means represent the large majority. All the protestants I knew would flee from such a preacher that told them such nonsense that God will come through for them if they are just faithful enough.

Actually every fundamentalist Christian would have to believe that all of their prayers would be answered because Jesus promises to do whatever we ask for in His name.  

As for your claim that this is rare, see the following link.  
http://members.aol.com/ecsl/answeredprayer.htm

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Then why are you acting like you "know it all." You are absolute in heaping condemnation on these people. By the way, I'm not judging my Orthodox bretheren by my so called fundamentalist standards. You sound like a fundamentalist yourself by your outward blanket statements of condemning a whole group of people.

The Church "knows it all" and the Church has condemned fundamentalism.  BTW, just to be clear, I don't "condemn" them.  Despite their heresies and hatred for Christ's Church, they can still be joined to the Church in a mystical way and attain salvation.  

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Thanks for the strawman arguements. Your observations of dire gloom by our seperated protestant bretheren is unfounded. If find the "progressives" in the Catholic church a much bigger threat than any fundamentalist protestant.

The "progressives" pose the same threat as the fundamentalist protestant because they both reject the authority of the Church.  Without the authority of the Church, there will be social anarchy.  There is no foundation for morality without the authority of the Church.  The fundamentalist claims Scripture lays out morality but look at the disagreements amongst them.  Sola scriptura is circular reasoning and when the fundamentalist figures that out often he/she rejects God alltogether.  

Fundamentalism leads to 'I'm okay you're okay' morality.  America has its current problems because of its fundamentalist past.  The average American is not a practicing Christian.  The average American approves of any number of immoralities.  And the average American is a descendant of a fundamentalist protestant.  I look to my own family as indicative of this trend.  I come from an old english southern family.   We came over before the revolution.  On one side I'm descended from a long line of Baptist preachers.  My great-grandparents were all devout, believing fundamentalist protestants.  Today there are only three religious groups left.  My parents and their children and grandchildren are all practicing Roman Catholics.  One of my dad's brother and his family are Southern Baptist although his children have rebelled when they went away to college.  My dad's sister is an Episcopal deacon.  This illustrates the trend in the upper middle class family.  When affluence and education came along, fundamentalism was discarded and replaced with secularism.  

Fundamentalism cannot sustain itself long term.  First, it has no intellectual foundation so educated people will reject it.  Sola scriptura is frankly absurd.  It requires a suspension of intelligence in order to accept it.  Second, someone is bound to individually 'interpret' the Bible to mean that homosexuality is allowed.  My Episcopal deacon aunt accepts homosexuality and abortion.  You can point out Scripture passages that show she's wrong but she won't believe you because she belongs to a tradition (protestant) that rejects the authority of anyone but the individual to interpret Scripture.  What happened in the Episcopal church is no accident.  


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« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2004, 09:24:29 PM »

They pose the same threat because they are the 'father' of the "pro-abortion rights, pro-homosexual rights..." folks.  Who was it that said that puritanism was the father of unitarianism?  Whoever it was, they were right on the mark.  

Once you reject the authority of the Church then you have no foundation for traditional morality.  

I think you hit it right on the mark!
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« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2004, 06:54:25 AM »

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Actually every fundamentalist Christian would have to believe that all of their prayers would be answered because Jesus promises to do whatever we ask for in His name.  

I've never heard a protestant make such a bold exclamation. Thanks for another straw man arguement.



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The Church "knows it all" and the Church has condemned fundamentalism.  BTW, just to be clear, I don't "condemn" them.  Despite their heresies and hatred for Christ's Church, they can still be joined to the Church in a mystical way and attain salvation.

Wow, your own statement in a way shows that you believe your position to be wrong. You were saying before that protestant fundamentalism is a dangerous cult.  If they are such, how can they be joined in a "mystical way"  to the body of Christ?Huh Are you stating here that they will be saved because they do have a true faith in Christ???



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The "progressives" pose the same threat as the fundamentalist protestant because they both reject the authority of the Church.  Without the authority of the Church, there will be social anarchy.  There is no foundation for morality without the authority of the Church.  The fundamentalist claims Scripture lays out morality but look at the disagreements amongst them.  Sola scriptura is circular reasoning and when the fundamentalist figures that out often he/she rejects God alltogether.  

I agree with you on this....



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Fundamentalism cannot sustain itself long term.  First, it has no intellectual foundation so educated people will reject it.  Sola scriptura is frankly absurd.  It requires a suspension of intelligence in order to accept it.  Second, someone is bound to individually 'interpret' the Bible to mean that homosexuality is allowed.  My Episcopal deacon aunt accepts homosexuality and abortion.  You can point out Scripture passages that show she's wrong but she won't believe you because she belongs to a tradition (protestant) that rejects the authority of anyone but the individual to interpret Scripture.  What happened in the Episcopal church is no accident.  

OK......a few things are valid here. On the other hand, episcopalians are the furthest thing from christian "fundamentalism." They have always been much closer to sacramental/historic christianity in thier beleifs & practices than protestant fundamenatalism. There is a disconnect here... I think your comparision here is wanning quite a bit.
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« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2004, 07:48:45 AM »

Nacho, in other words we do not presume to know whether or not they will be saved by the mercy of God in a "mystical" way that we do not perceive, but at the same time they are clearly outside the church visibly and therefore, in my opinion, cannot be considered 'Christian', although they claim to follow Christ.

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« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2004, 10:48:13 AM »

I've never heard a protestant make such a bold exclamation.

Oh come on now.  I've heard fundamentalists say that all the time.  Turn on fundamentalist television for a few minutes and you'll see preachers claiming that God promised people financial security.  I heard some preacher on television the other day insisting that God will heal you if you pray hard enough.

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Wow, your own statement in a way shows that you believe your position to be wrong. You were saying before that protestant fundamentalism is a dangerous cult.  If they are such, how can they be joined in a "mystical way"  to the body of Christ?Huh Are you stating here that they will be saved because they do have a true faith in Christ???

You don't need a "true faith in Christ" to be joined to the Church in a mystical way.  Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. can be joined to the Church in a mystical way.  BTW, fundamentalists do not have a "true faith in Christ."  Their Jesus isn't our Jesus.  God works in mysterious ways and fundamentalists can be very sincere and lead by God in ways that they don't understand.  But their theology isn't orthodox.  

Think about it...how do we know Christ?  Through the Church.  Can we separate Christ from His Church?  No.  

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I agree with you on this....OK......a few things are valid here. On the other hand, episcopalians are the furthest thing from christian "fundamentalism." They have always been much closer to sacramental/historic christianity in thier beleifs & practices than protestant fundamenatalism. There is a disconnect here... I think your comparision here is wanning quite a bit.

Episcopals are what happens to fundamentalists when they become affluent and educated.  Like I wrote earlier, fundamentalism isn't a sustainable faith.  It has no intellectual underpinnings.  

I think we also need to separate historical anglicanism from modern day episcopalism.  Certainly in the past it was closer to sacramental christianity, however, all of the protestant denominations are getting 'fuzzy.'  As I wrote earlier, I have a lot of episcopal relatives.  They're not episcopal because of 'sacramental christianity.'  They're episcopals because episcopals allow divorce and remarriage and approve of homosexuality and abortion.  In a fundamentalist country like ours, when people get an education and some money they end up episcopal or unitarian.
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« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2004, 02:40:17 AM »

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Oh come on now.  I've heard fundamentalists say that all the time.  Turn on fundamentalist television for a few minutes and you'll see preachers claiming that God promised people financial security.  I heard some preacher on television the other day insisting that God will heal you if you pray hard enough.

Right.....I have never heard any preacher make a full proof claim that God will come thorugh any and every time though. The claims are more general in that if you live a faithful life, you in many ways will be blessed by God with his providence. I don't have a problem with that. I don't think you can use this example because even most protestants disagree with the "gospel wealth" teachings which are ussually heard by the nuts on TBN.


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You don't need a "true faith in Christ" to be joined to the Church in a mystical way.  Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. can be joined to the Church in a mystical way.  BTW, fundamentalists do not have a "true faith in Christ."  Their Jesus isn't our Jesus.  God works in mysterious ways and fundamentalists can be very sincere and lead by God in ways that they don't understand.  But their theology isn't orthodox.  

You still are being too harsh Jennifer. You can't say that protestants don't have a true faith in Christ.  How would you know that. I'm confident that I have always worshipped the same Jesus Christ as a former protestant. I guess we have to agree to disagree. Maybe I'm just a big ecumenicalist... Shocked


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Episcopals are what happens to fundamentalists when they become affluent and educated.  Like I wrote earlier, fundamentalism isn't a sustainable faith.  It has no intellectual underpinnings.

Wrong. Episcopalians in thier history and church circles have never been part of the fundamentalist movement. They aren't even associated. Ironically, it's the more liturgical protestant churches that have been invaded by secularist. Fundamentalist churches have not had this problem yet, so I don't know what you are trying to prove or get at.

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I think we also need to separate historical anglicanism from modern day episcopalism.  Certainly in the past it was closer to sacramental christianity, however, all of the protestant denominations are getting 'fuzzy.'  As I wrote earlier, I have a lot of episcopal relatives.  They're not episcopal because of 'sacramental christianity.'  They're episcopals because episcopals allow divorce and remarriage and approve of homosexuality and abortion.  In a fundamentalist country like ours, when people get an education and some money they end up episcopal or unitarian.

I would agree somewhat in the seperation of historical anglicanism and modern day espiscopals. Episcopalians are still somewhat of a diverse group though. You have everything from reformed episcopalians who take literally the articles of faith in the BOC to very high church episcopals who are much closer to catholicism. The problem though with episcopalianism is that at it's core roots it has no identity. It's stuck between trying to have a catholic & protestant identity.
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