Author Topic: Reunification with the Catholic Church: possible, desirable? Your opinions.  (Read 51779 times)

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Offline Clancy Boy

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Re: Reunification with the Catholic Church: possible, desirable? Your opinions.
« Reply #450 on: January 06, 2011, 03:53:12 PM »
God led both Saint Peter and Saint Paul to die in Rome to broadcast to the world that this was the Church of authority.


Offline Clancy Boy

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Re: Reunification with the Catholic Church: possible, desirable? Your opinions.
« Reply #451 on: January 06, 2011, 04:00:20 PM »
Also all this bickering makes baby Jesus cry.  I was admiring just how civil and productive this discussion had been, and then look what happened.

Offline Thomist

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Re: Reunification with the Catholic Church: possible, desirable? Your opinions.
« Reply #452 on: January 06, 2011, 04:03:35 PM »
What a pity that all these Catholics just don't know well enough to be trusted to choose their own religion.

What a pity that all these Catholics can act as if the past never happened while wealthy Greeks continue to perpetuate their slavery to a foreign country 555 years after their religious leader accepted the title of Ethnarch.  What did Orwell say about slavery:

Freedom is slavery

I never committed any crimes against them. Being of English and Irish ethnicity, none of my forefathers ever committed any crimes against them. I'm sorry that it happened to them. If they want to remain Catholic, as they plainly do, I welcome it

Should the massacre of the latins in 1182 prevent anyone from being western rite Orthodox in good conscience? Of course not.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 04:04:58 PM by Thomist »
"Would heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?" - Saint Cyprian of Carthage

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Reunification with the Catholic Church: possible, desirable? Your opinions.
« Reply #453 on: January 07, 2011, 02:24:34 AM »
What a pity that all these Catholics just don't know well enough to be trusted to choose their own religion.

What a pity that all these Catholics can act as if the past never happened while wealthy Greeks continue to perpetuate their slavery to a foreign country 555 years after their religious leader accepted the title of Ethnarch.  What did Orwell say about slavery:

Freedom is slavery

I never committed any crimes against them. Being of English and Irish ethnicity, none of my forefathers ever committed any crimes against them. I'm sorry that it happened to them. If they want to remain Catholic, as they plainly do, I welcome it

Should the massacre of the latins in 1182 prevent anyone from being western rite Orthodox in good conscience? Of course not.

Do you know what is Western Rite Orthodoxy?

Offline ialmisry

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With which city as the primatial see?

It looks like he has none.
I just came across the Statute of the Romanian Orthodpx Bishiprick of Italy.  It states that the see of the Diocese is Rome:
http://www.episcopia-italiei.it/media/statut_eori.pdf
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wyatt

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Full Communion with the Catholic Church is wonderful. I would highly recommend it.

Offline ialmisry

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Full Communion with the Catholic Church is wonderful. I would highly recommend it.
Wouldn't it be better to embrace it, rather than recommend it from outside? From the inside of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church I can tell you it is the only way to go.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wyatt

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Full Communion with the Catholic Church is wonderful. I would highly recommend it.
Wouldn't it be better to embrace it, rather than recommend it from outside? From the inside of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church I can tell you it is the only way to go.
I think you're confused about who's inside and outside, brother. ;)

Offline ialmisry

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Full Communion with the Catholic Church is wonderful. I would highly recommend it.
Wouldn't it be better to embrace it, rather than recommend it from outside? From the inside of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church I can tell you it is the only way to go.
I think you're confused about who's inside and outside, brother. ;)
Your Romanian brothers are confused: they thought that the Vatican considered them Catholic, equal to the Latin rite:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30219.msg542698.html#msg542698
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wyatt

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Full Communion with the Catholic Church is wonderful. I would highly recommend it.
Wouldn't it be better to embrace it, rather than recommend it from outside? From the inside of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church I can tell you it is the only way to go.
I think you're confused about who's inside and outside, brother. ;)
Your Romanian brothers are confused: they thought that the Vatican considered them Catholic, equal to the Latin rite:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30219.msg542698.html#msg542698
Separated brethren, while still part of the family, are hardly on the same level as brethren in full communion. At least you guys are still a Church in the true sense of the word. That much is true.

Offline ialmisry

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Full Communion with the Catholic Church is wonderful. I would highly recommend it.
Wouldn't it be better to embrace it, rather than recommend it from outside? From the inside of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church I can tell you it is the only way to go.
I think you're confused about who's inside and outside, brother. ;)
Your Romanian brothers are confused: they thought that the Vatican considered them Catholic, equal to the Latin rite:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30219.msg542698.html#msg542698
Separated brethren, while still part of the family, are hardly on the same level as brethren in full communion. At least you guys are still a Church in the true sense of the word. That much is true.
Thanks for demonstrating yet again how the Vatican's "sui juris"churches are not the door to communion with your supreme pontiff, but its door mat.

We intend to remain the Church in the true sense of the word.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wyatt

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Full Communion with the Catholic Church is wonderful. I would highly recommend it.
Wouldn't it be better to embrace it, rather than recommend it from outside? From the inside of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church I can tell you it is the only way to go.
I think you're confused about who's inside and outside, brother. ;)
Your Romanian brothers are confused: they thought that the Vatican considered them Catholic, equal to the Latin rite:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30219.msg542698.html#msg542698
Separated brethren, while still part of the family, are hardly on the same level as brethren in full communion. At least you guys are still a Church in the true sense of the word. That much is true.
Thanks for demonstrating yet again how the Vatican's "sui juris"churches are not the door to communion with your supreme pontiff, but its door mat.

We intend to remain the Church in the true sense of the word.
Not sure what you mean.

Those Eastern Churches in full communion with us are such because they want to be. In this day and age they could certainly become Eastern Orthodox if they wanted.

Offline ialmisry

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Full Communion with the Catholic Church is wonderful. I would highly recommend it.
Wouldn't it be better to embrace it, rather than recommend it from outside? From the inside of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church I can tell you it is the only way to go.
I think you're confused about who's inside and outside, brother. ;)
Your Romanian brothers are confused: they thought that the Vatican considered them Catholic, equal to the Latin rite:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30219.msg542698.html#msg542698
Separated brethren, while still part of the family, are hardly on the same level as brethren in full communion. At least you guys are still a Church in the true sense of the word. That much is true.
Thanks for demonstrating yet again how the Vatican's "sui juris"churches are not the door to communion with your supreme pontiff, but its door mat.

We intend to remain the Church in the true sense of the word.
Not sure what you mean.

Those Eastern Churches in full communion with us are such because they want to be. In this day and age they could certainly become Eastern Orthodox if they wanted.
Given the welcome the Italian bishops have given them in Italy, I hope they follow St. Alexis Toth on the offer.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wyatt

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Full Communion with the Catholic Church is wonderful. I would highly recommend it.
Wouldn't it be better to embrace it, rather than recommend it from outside? From the inside of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church I can tell you it is the only way to go.
I think you're confused about who's inside and outside, brother. ;)
Your Romanian brothers are confused: they thought that the Vatican considered them Catholic, equal to the Latin rite:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30219.msg542698.html#msg542698
Separated brethren, while still part of the family, are hardly on the same level as brethren in full communion. At least you guys are still a Church in the true sense of the word. That much is true.
Thanks for demonstrating yet again how the Vatican's "sui juris"churches are not the door to communion with your supreme pontiff, but its door mat.

We intend to remain the Church in the true sense of the word.
Not sure what you mean.

Those Eastern Churches in full communion with us are such because they want to be. In this day and age they could certainly become Eastern Orthodox if they wanted.
Given the welcome the Italian bishops have given them in Italy, I hope they follow St. Alexis Toth on the offer.
Whatever. That's fine. They would still be Churches, we would just hate to see them go.

Offline Melodist

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Full Communion with the Catholic Church is wonderful. I would highly recommend it.
Wouldn't it be better to embrace it, rather than recommend it from outside? From the inside of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church I can tell you it is the only way to go.
I think you're confused about who's inside and outside, brother. ;)
Your Romanian brothers are confused: they thought that the Vatican considered them Catholic, equal to the Latin rite:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30219.msg542698.html#msg542698
Separated brethren, while still part of the family, are hardly on the same level as brethren in full communion. At least you guys are still a Church in the true sense of the word. That much is true.

They're in full communion with Rome, from Rome's point of view they should be no longer seperated, at all in any way. There is no reason for any priest, with the exception of for diciplinary action (which doesn't seem to be the case here), to not be allowed to celebrate a liturgy in a church (in communion with Rome) of their own rite. That is an ouright denial of the catholicity of that particular church and a denial of that priests ordination and his ecclesiastical office as a priest.

Clerical celibacy is a local custom of Rome, it is not a universal practice. Outside of Roman (local) tradition, married priests are not isolated incidents of an exception to an established rule.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline podkarpatska

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Full Communion with the Catholic Church is wonderful. I would highly recommend it.
Wouldn't it be better to embrace it, rather than recommend it from outside? From the inside of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church I can tell you it is the only way to go.
I think you're confused about who's inside and outside, brother. ;)
Your Romanian brothers are confused: they thought that the Vatican considered them Catholic, equal to the Latin rite:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30219.msg542698.html#msg542698
Separated brethren, while still part of the family, are hardly on the same level as brethren in full communion. At least you guys are still a Church in the true sense of the word. That much is true.
Thanks for demonstrating yet again how the Vatican's "sui juris"churches are not the door to communion with your supreme pontiff, but its door mat.

We intend to remain the Church in the true sense of the word.
Not sure what you mean.

Those Eastern Churches in full communion with us are such because they want to be. In this day and age they could certainly become Eastern Orthodox if they wanted.

Not while any Bishop appointed by Rome holds title to the property they can't. If the Bishop left also, Rome would have to sue to keep the property and the assets. Be real.

Offline Wyatt

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Full Communion with the Catholic Church is wonderful. I would highly recommend it.
Wouldn't it be better to embrace it, rather than recommend it from outside? From the inside of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church I can tell you it is the only way to go.
I think you're confused about who's inside and outside, brother. ;)
Your Romanian brothers are confused: they thought that the Vatican considered them Catholic, equal to the Latin rite:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30219.msg542698.html#msg542698
Separated brethren, while still part of the family, are hardly on the same level as brethren in full communion. At least you guys are still a Church in the true sense of the word. That much is true.

They're in full communion with Rome, from Rome's point of view they should be no longer seperated, at all in any way. There is no reason for any priest, with the exception of for diciplinary action (which doesn't seem to be the case here), to not be allowed to celebrate a liturgy in a church (in communion with Rome) of their own rite. That is an ouright denial of the catholicity of that particular church and a denial of that priests ordination and his ecclesiastical office as a priest.

Clerical celibacy is a local custom of Rome, it is not a universal practice. Outside of Roman (local) tradition, married priests are not isolated incidents of an exception to an established rule.
Oh, I misunderstood. I thought Izzy was talking about Eastern Orthodox Churches.

Offline ialmisry

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Full Communion with the Catholic Church is wonderful. I would highly recommend it.
Wouldn't it be better to embrace it, rather than recommend it from outside? From the inside of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church I can tell you it is the only way to go.
I think you're confused about who's inside and outside, brother. ;)
Your Romanian brothers are confused: they thought that the Vatican considered them Catholic, equal to the Latin rite:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30219.msg542698.html#msg542698
Separated brethren, while still part of the family, are hardly on the same level as brethren in full communion. At least you guys are still a Church in the true sense of the word. That much is true.

They're in full communion with Rome, from Rome's point of view they should be no longer seperated, at all in any way. There is no reason for any priest, with the exception of for diciplinary action (which doesn't seem to be the case here), to not be allowed to celebrate a liturgy in a church (in communion with Rome) of their own rite. That is an ouright denial of the catholicity of that particular church and a denial of that priests ordination and his ecclesiastical office as a priest.

Clerical celibacy is a local custom of Rome, it is not a universal practice. Outside of Roman (local) tradition, married priests are not isolated incidents of an exception to an established rule.
Oh, I misunderstood. I thought Izzy was talking about Eastern Orthodox Churches.
why would you think that?  The Vatican doesn't consider them Catholic, and they are our brothers, not yours. And like us, they couldn't care less what the Vatican thinks.  They have a bisohp in Rome and plenty of married priests.  And they outnumber your Romanian brothers in Italy, who were foolish enough to take the Vatican at its word on talk of "sui juris," "equality," "Eastern Traditions," "Freedom is slavery," etc.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wyatt

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Full Communion with the Catholic Church is wonderful. I would highly recommend it.
Wouldn't it be better to embrace it, rather than recommend it from outside? From the inside of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church I can tell you it is the only way to go.
I think you're confused about who's inside and outside, brother. ;)
Your Romanian brothers are confused: they thought that the Vatican considered them Catholic, equal to the Latin rite:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30219.msg542698.html#msg542698
Separated brethren, while still part of the family, are hardly on the same level as brethren in full communion. At least you guys are still a Church in the true sense of the word. That much is true.

They're in full communion with Rome, from Rome's point of view they should be no longer seperated, at all in any way. There is no reason for any priest, with the exception of for diciplinary action (which doesn't seem to be the case here), to not be allowed to celebrate a liturgy in a church (in communion with Rome) of their own rite. That is an ouright denial of the catholicity of that particular church and a denial of that priests ordination and his ecclesiastical office as a priest.

Clerical celibacy is a local custom of Rome, it is not a universal practice. Outside of Roman (local) tradition, married priests are not isolated incidents of an exception to an established rule.
Oh, I misunderstood. I thought Izzy was talking about Eastern Orthodox Churches.
why would you think that?  The Vatican doesn't consider them Catholic, and they are our brothers, not yours. And like us, they couldn't care less what the Vatican thinks.  They have a bisohp in Rome and plenty of married priests.  And they outnumber your Romanian brothers in Italy, who were foolish enough to take the Vatican at its word on talk of "sui juris," "equality," "Eastern Traditions," "Freedom is slavery," etc.
Calm down. It's called not reading carefully. :P

Offline Irish Hermit

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The thoughts of a priest on what the Vatican needs to do for reunification...


http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/vatican.htm

Offline Peter J

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The thoughts of a priest on what the Vatican needs to do for reunification...


http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/vatican.htm

I guess it goes without saying that the author of an article on orthodoxengland.org.uk knows better than Patriarch Kirill.  ;)
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Offline Irish Hermit

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The thoughts of a priest on what the Vatican needs to do for reunification...


http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/vatican.htm

I guess it goes without saying that the author of an article on orthodoxengland.org.uk knows better than Patriarch Kirill.  ;)


Casting my mind back over statements made by His Holiness Patriarch Kirill  (and also by the head of the Russian Department of External Church Relations, Metropolitan Hilarion who is also chief delegate to Roman Catholic-Orthodox Conferences) I would say they hold the same position as the orthodoxengland article on papal authority and papal infalibility.

Offline Peter J

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The thoughts of a priest on what the Vatican needs to do for reunification...


http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/vatican.htm
I guess it goes without saying that the author of an article on orthodoxengland.org.uk knows better than Patriarch Kirill.  ;)[/size]

Casting my mind back over statements made by His Holiness Patriarch Kirill  (and also by the head of the Russian Department of External Church Relations, Metropolitan Hilarion who is also chief delegate to Roman Catholic-Orthodox Conferences) I would say they hold the same position as the orthodoxengland article on papal authority and papal infalibility.

Ah. I think I might have misunderstood your purpose in giving us that link. Was your intent simply to relate their position on papal authority and papal infallibility?

If so, I only wish I had known that, as I wouldn't have bothered reading the article.
- Peter Jericho

Offline elijahmaria

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The thoughts of a priest on what the Vatican needs to do for reunification...


http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/vatican.htm
I guess it goes without saying that the author of an article on orthodoxengland.org.uk knows better than Patriarch Kirill.  ;)[/size]

Casting my mind back over statements made by His Holiness Patriarch Kirill  (and also by the head of the Russian Department of External Church Relations, Metropolitan Hilarion who is also chief delegate to Roman Catholic-Orthodox Conferences) I would say they hold the same position as the orthodoxengland article on papal authority and papal infalibility.

Ah. I think I might have misunderstood your purpose in giving us that link. Was your intent simply to relate their position on papal authority and papal infallibility?

If so, I only wish I had known that, as I wouldn't have bothered reading the article.

 :laugh:  Nice.  All I needed was the web address to know the content of that character!!


Offline ialmisry

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The thoughts of a priest on what the Vatican needs to do for reunification...


http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/vatican.htm
I guess it goes without saying that the author of an article on orthodoxengland.org.uk knows better than Patriarch Kirill.  ;)[/size]

Casting my mind back over statements made by His Holiness Patriarch Kirill  (and also by the head of the Russian Department of External Church Relations, Metropolitan Hilarion who is also chief delegate to Roman Catholic-Orthodox Conferences) I would say they hold the same position as the orthodoxengland article on papal authority and papal infalibility.

Ah. I think I might have misunderstood your purpose in giving us that link. Was your intent simply to relate their position on papal authority and papal infallibility?

If so, I only wish I had known that, as I wouldn't have bothered reading the article.

 :laugh:  Nice.  All I needed was the web address to know the content of that character!!



sooo, we can just ignore any statement made by the Vatican then, as we know the content of that character.  "Just ignore the problem and maybe it will go away, or we'll pretend there are any church dividing issues and pretend the Orthodox have submitted to "Peter," and none will be the wiser."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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The thoughts of a priest on what the Vatican needs to do for reunification...


http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/vatican.htm
I guess it goes without saying that the author of an article on orthodoxengland.org.uk knows better than Patriarch Kirill.  ;)[/size]

Casting my mind back over statements made by His Holiness Patriarch Kirill  (and also by the head of the Russian Department of External Church Relations, Metropolitan Hilarion who is also chief delegate to Roman Catholic-Orthodox Conferences) I would say they hold the same position as the orthodoxengland article on papal authority and papal infalibility.

Ah. I think I might have misunderstood your purpose in giving us that link. Was your intent simply to relate their position on papal authority and papal infallibility?

If so, I only wish I had known that, as I wouldn't have bothered reading the article.

 :laugh:  Nice.  All I needed was the web address to know the content of that character!!



sooo, we can just ignore any statement made by the Vatican then, as we know the content of that character.  "Just ignore the problem and maybe it will go away, or we'll pretend there are any church dividing issues and pretend the Orthodox have submitted to "Peter," and none will be the wiser."

But you already ignore all that does not suit your agenda, and it makes no matter whether or not it is important to the truth.  If you don't like it, you write right over it.

I ignore those Orthodox clergy who tend to sneer and bite when they write.

We all have these kinds of choices to make.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 01:11:06 PM by elijahmaria »

Offline ialmisry

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The thoughts of a priest on what the Vatican needs to do for reunification...


http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/vatican.htm
I guess it goes without saying that the author of an article on orthodoxengland.org.uk knows better than Patriarch Kirill.  ;)[/size]

Casting my mind back over statements made by His Holiness Patriarch Kirill  (and also by the head of the Russian Department of External Church Relations, Metropolitan Hilarion who is also chief delegate to Roman Catholic-Orthodox Conferences) I would say they hold the same position as the orthodoxengland article on papal authority and papal infalibility.

Ah. I think I might have misunderstood your purpose in giving us that link. Was your intent simply to relate their position on papal authority and papal infallibility?

If so, I only wish I had known that, as I wouldn't have bothered reading the article.

 :laugh:  Nice.  All I needed was the web address to know the content of that character!!



sooo, we can just ignore any statement made by the Vatican then, as we know the content of that character.  "Just ignore the problem and maybe it will go away, or we'll pretend there are any church dividing issues and pretend the Orthodox have submitted to "Peter," and none will be the wiser."

But you already ignore all that does not suit your agenda, and it makes no matter whether or not it is important to the truth.  If you don't like it, you write right over it.

I ignore those Orthodox clergy who tend to sneer and bite when they write.

We all have these kinds of choices to make.
I ignore nothing. That's why you have a problem: I don't stop at the nice facade, but look behind what the Ultramontanists and the Vatican say amongst themselves. Like all that talk about reconcilation with Russia, while issuing this piece of revisionist propaganda
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_19951112_iv-cent-union-brest_en.html
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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I ignore nothing. That's why you have a problem: I don't stop at the nice facade, but look behind what the Ultramontanists and the Vatican say amongst themselves. Like all that talk about reconcilation with Russia, while issuing this piece of revisionist propaganda
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_19951112_iv-cent-union-brest_en.html

From my perspective, what you do is to sweep off the table anything that does not further your own agenda.  You do it even here with your "nice facade" which is never examined for its truth value but only ever labeled in the negative and swept away.  You have declared your position here and your aim to destroy certain teachings of my Church.  Anything that might promise resolution, rather than destruction, you obliterate in a flurry of cut 'n paste and lurid images.  And this is all I'm going to say about that for it is not up to me to touch your heart or even try...


Offline John Larocque

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The thoughts of a priest on what the Vatican needs to do for reunification...
http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/vatican.htm

"on the other hand, the anti-ascetic, worldly and secular ethos of its services, reinstating confession and fasting. "

Is there any basis for the statement that the requirement of confession before communion was influenced by Roman Catholic theology?

Offline Peter J

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Ah. I think I might have misunderstood your purpose in giving us that link. Was your intent simply to relate their position on papal authority and papal infallibility?

If so, I only wish I had known that, as I wouldn't have bothered reading the article.

 :laugh:  Nice.  All I needed was the web address to know the content of that character!!

Well, I don't have a lot of experience with that website, so I can't really agree or disagree with you there. But in any case I think I'm right to say that, if the purpose of posting that link was simply to relate their position on papal authority and papal infallibility, then I needn't have bothered reading it.
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Offline Iconodule

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The thoughts of a priest on what the Vatican needs to do for reunification...
http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/vatican.htm

"on the other hand, the anti-ascetic, worldly and secular ethos of its services, reinstating confession and fasting. "

Is there any basis for the statement that the requirement of confession before communion was influenced by Roman Catholic theology?

The writer is recommending confession and fasting as part of an antidote to the "anti-ascetic, worldly and secular ethos."
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Offline synLeszka

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Full Communion with the Catholic Church is wonderful. I would highly recommend it.
Wouldn't it be better to embrace it, rather than recommend it from outside? From the inside of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church I can tell you it is the only way to go.
I think you're confused about who's inside and outside, brother. ;)
Your Romanian brothers are confused: they thought that the Vatican considered them Catholic, equal to the Latin rite:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30219.msg542698.html#msg542698
Separated brethren, while still part of the family, are hardly on the same level as brethren in full communion. At least you guys are still a Church in the true sense of the word. That much is true.
Thanks for demonstrating yet again how the Vatican's "sui juris"churches are not the door to communion with your supreme pontiff, but its door mat.

We intend to remain the Church in the true sense of the word.
Not sure what you mean.

Those Eastern Churches in full communion with us are such because they want to be. In this day and age they could certainly become Eastern Orthodox if they wanted.

Not while any Bishop appointed by Rome holds title to the property they can't. If the Bishop left also, Rome would have to sue to keep the property and the assets. Be real.
You are confused. The Pope needs to approve any sale or lease of Church properties over a certain value or acerage. I think that for Italy it is 100.000 EURO; the bishops' conferences ratify by way of episcopal statute, the particular value, upon which the Pope has to approve to allow for the disposition of property. The Roman Catholic Church through the Pope in the College of Bishops rules the Church. You cannot carry over a Catholic Church to another religion, unless the Pope agrees or the value of the property is less than the amount in the bishops' conferences statutory instruments. The moving of properties in the USA was against our Canon Law, but the courts do not recognise the jurisdiction of Canon Law, so no sanctions were carried out. The onus probandi in this case was unclear, as the US bishops did not see themselves as responsible, calling on vis maior.
Forgive me for my English, I do not know the exact legal terms in English, and used a non-professional dictionary.

Offline Peter J

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I ignore nothing. That's why you have a problem: I don't stop at the nice facade, but look behind what the Ultramontanists and the Vatican say amongst themselves. Like all that talk about reconcilation with Russia, while issuing this piece of revisionist propaganda
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_19951112_iv-cent-union-brest_en.html

First, I appreciate the fact that you just posted a link to an Apostolic Letter of JPII. Thank you for that -- I suppose I should return the favor by posting a link to the full text of Patriarch Kirill's speach, since the orthodoxengland article only quoted 2 sentences (well, almost 2 whole sentences) of it. And I would, except that I don't know where the full text can be found.

Second, I admit that I find JPII's position on uniatism a little difficult to understand -- for example, trying to understand how his manner of "celebrating" the fourth centenary of the Union of Brest is consistent with the attitude expressed in the Balamand Agreement.

Third, as for calling it "revisionist propaganda", I hope you'll excuse me if say that that's the sort of statement I've come to expect on this forum and not put much stock in.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Full Communion with the Catholic Church is wonderful. I would highly recommend it.
Wouldn't it be better to embrace it, rather than recommend it from outside? From the inside of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church I can tell you it is the only way to go.
I think you're confused about who's inside and outside, brother. ;)
Your Romanian brothers are confused: they thought that the Vatican considered them Catholic, equal to the Latin rite:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30219.msg542698.html#msg542698
Separated brethren, while still part of the family, are hardly on the same level as brethren in full communion. At least you guys are still a Church in the true sense of the word. That much is true.
Thanks for demonstrating yet again how the Vatican's "sui juris"churches are not the door to communion with your supreme pontiff, but its door mat.

We intend to remain the Church in the true sense of the word.
Not sure what you mean.

Those Eastern Churches in full communion with us are such because they want to be. In this day and age they could certainly become Eastern Orthodox if they wanted.

Not while any Bishop appointed by Rome holds title to the property they can't. If the Bishop left also, Rome would have to sue to keep the property and the assets. Be real.
You are confused. The Pope needs to approve any sale or lease of Church properties over a certain value or acerage. I think that for Italy it is 100.000 EURO; the bishops' conferences ratify by way of episcopal statute, the particular value, upon which the Pope has to approve to allow for the disposition of property. The Roman Catholic Church through the Pope in the College of Bishops rules the Church. You cannot carry over a Catholic Church to another religion, unless the Pope agrees or the value of the property is less than the amount in the bishops' conferences statutory instruments. The moving of properties in the USA was against our Canon Law, but the courts do not recognise the jurisdiction of Canon Law, so no sanctions were carried out. The onus probandi in this case was unclear, as the US bishops did not see themselves as responsible, calling on vis maior.
Forgive me for my English, I do not know the exact legal terms in English, and used a non-professional dictionary.

In the first wave of Greek Catholic immigrants from Galicia and Austria Hungary, Rome at first paid little attention to spiritual needs of the people. Some priests came to America and Canada with the permission of their European ordinaries to minister to the people, others simply showed up on these shores. When the first parish communities were to be formed, there were no legal mechanisms in place for the incorporation of these parishes. Some turned to the local Roman rite ordinary and were received and permitted to incorporate (St. John the Baptist Church in Bridgeport, CT was one, the ordinary sued and retained title when the parish rebelled.) and others ignored or were ignored by the ordinary and formed congregationally.(St. John's in Perth Amboy, NJ and St. Michael's in Binghamton, NY were two formed congregationally and refused to cede title to the Greek Catholic Eparch during the 1930's. They were sued and the congregations retained title and turned to Orthodox jurisdiction.)

After Bishop Ortynsky was sent to America followed in the 1920's by Bishop Takach and others, the situation began to 'normalize' with respect to incorporation issues so most parishes created after World War One did not have the issue of congregational title to real property. (That is not to say that they were immune to schism and litigation.)

Following World War 2 the dust in America had pretty much settled over these issues and all Byzantine Catholic and Ukrainian Greek Catholic parishes are, to my knowledge, titled to the Eparchs of these respective jurisdictions. As to the Orthodox, although Canon Law requires that parish property be titled to the ruling Bishop of a diocese, that is not uniform across the US. Many of the congregationally chartered parishes retain title although some have amended their charters over the years. This remains a contentious issue in American Orthodoxy and complicates efforts for a unified church structure.

That being said, I was pointing out the one of the major obstacles that would tie an Eastern Catholic parish community to Rome and that obstacle is ownership of the Church properties.

I am not familiar with the European issues, just the American ones.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Ah. I think I might have misunderstood your purpose in giving us that link. Was your intent simply to relate their position on papal authority and papal infallibility?

If so, I only wish I had known that, as I wouldn't have bothered reading the article.

 :laugh:  Nice.  All I needed was the web address to know the content of that character!!

Well, I don't have a lot of experience with that website, so I can't really agree or disagree with you there. But in any case I think I'm right to say that, if the purpose of posting that link was simply to relate their position on papal authority and papal infallibility, then I needn't have bothered reading it.


The purpose with posting that link was

1) it has a direct bearing on the focus of this thread "Reunification with the Catholic Church: possible, desirable? Your opinions"

2)  it reflects the position of the Russian Orthodox Church

3)  heck, it even reflects the position of the theologians of the Orthodox Church in America, as even Elijahmaria will tell us when she is having a transparent day.

Offline Irish Hermit

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The thoughts of a priest on what the Vatican needs to do for reunification...


http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/vatican.htm

I guess it goes without saying that the author of an article on orthodoxengland.org.uk knows better than Patriarch Kirill.  ;)

It would be interesting for both Catholics and Orthodox if, within the parameters of this thread, you could explain what you mean by that.  To what positions of Patriarch Kirill are you referring?

Offline ialmisry

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I ignore nothing. That's why you have a problem: I don't stop at the nice facade, but look behind what the Ultramontanists and the Vatican say amongst themselves. Like all that talk about reconcilation with Russia, while issuing this piece of revisionist propaganda
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_19951112_iv-cent-union-brest_en.html

First, I appreciate the fact that you just posted a link to an Apostolic Letter of JPII. Thank you for that -- I suppose I should return the favor by posting a link to the full text of Patriarch Kirill's speach, since the orthodoxengland article only quoted 2 sentences (well, almost 2 whole sentences) of it. And I would, except that I don't know where the full text can be found.

Do you really need more to get Pat. Kirill's thoughts on the matter?

Second, I admit that I find JPII's position on uniatism a little difficult to understand -- for example, trying to understand how his manner of "celebrating" the fourth centenary of the Union of Brest is consistent with the attitude expressed in the Balamand Agreement.

Not difficult to understand at all.  If there was any doubt, the Vatican's treatment of the "sui juris" churches outside their territories, and the attitude and actions of the Latin rite within those territories should clear that up.
Why can't Italy have married priests?
http://sainteliaschurch.blogspot.com/2011/03/italian-catholic-episcopal-conference.html
Why does Kiev/Kyiv need a Latin bishop?
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bpurw.html

Third, as for calling it "revisionist propaganda", I hope you'll excuse me if say that that's the sort of statement I've come to expect on this forum and not put much stock in.
If you don't like your Truth straight, you are going to have go elsewhere to get it mixed with the Kook Aid.

Btw, the same forces that produced the "Union of Brest" are still at work:
Quote
According to the Patriarch, there are number of problems in church-state relations in Lithuania. "According to the concordat with the Catholic Church only this Church is exempted from land taxes, while all other religious communities don't have such privileges. The Orthodox Church is subjected to the same 15 percent income tax as all country's commercial organizations," he stressed.
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=8161
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 05:20:26 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Peter J

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The thoughts of a priest on what the Vatican needs to do for reunification...


http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/vatican.htm

I guess it goes without saying that the author of an article on orthodoxengland.org.uk knows better than Patriarch Kirill.  ;)

It would be interesting for both Catholics and Orthodox if, within the parameters of this thread, you could explain what you mean by that.  To what positions of Patriarch Kirill are you referring?



First, I appreciate the fact that you just posted a link to an Apostolic Letter of JPII. Thank you for that -- I suppose I should return the favor by posting a link to the full text of Patriarch Kirill's speach, since the orthodoxengland article only quoted 2 sentences (well, almost 2 whole sentences) of it. And I would, except that I don't know where the full text can be found.

Do you really need more to get Pat. Kirill's thoughts on the matter?


Wait, am I the only person here who is curious what else Pat. Kirill said, other than the 2 sentences that the article quoted?
- Peter Jericho

Offline Peter J

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(and also by the head of the Russian Department of External Church Relations, Metropolitan Hilarion who is also chief delegate to Roman Catholic-Orthodox Conferences)

Actually, I did happen to read the recent interview he did with John Burger.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 09:48:22 PM by Peter J »
- Peter Jericho