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« Reply #5265 on: July 15, 2014, 03:11:00 PM »

It just shows that for the branch of unionist ecumenism that believes in the falacy of union betwen Orthodoxy and Non-Chalcedonean, "Orthodoxy" is a synonim for "not-Western" only. They are philetists and nothing more.

Please keep the polemics elsewhere. Thanks.
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« Reply #5266 on: July 15, 2014, 05:41:11 PM »



A patriarch hasn't laughed this hard before haha
I love HH Pope Tawadros II!
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« Reply #5267 on: July 15, 2014, 07:04:48 PM »


A patriarch hasn't laughed this hard before haha
I love HH Pope Tawadros II!

Since his predecessor...


http://mamafayza.tripod.com/design/pope-shenouda-laughs.jpg
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« Reply #5268 on: July 15, 2014, 07:11:23 PM »


A patriarch hasn't laughed this hard before haha
I love HH Pope Tawadros II!

Since his predecessor...


http://mamafayza.tripod.com/design/pope-shenouda-laughs.jpg

Of course HH Pope Shenouda III had the best sense of humour, but this laugh is something. Might be because of HH Tawadros' youth
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« Reply #5269 on: July 15, 2014, 07:24:10 PM »

Speaking of laughing Wink



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« Reply #5270 on: July 15, 2014, 08:39:18 PM »

[nvm]
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« Reply #5271 on: July 15, 2014, 08:42:58 PM »


A patriarch hasn't laughed this hard before haha
I love HH Pope Tawadros II!

Since his predecessor...


http://mamafayza.tripod.com/design/pope-shenouda-laughs.jpg

I'm sorry, I can't see a photo here, all I see is a photo hosting logo. Smiley
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« Reply #5272 on: July 15, 2014, 10:29:39 PM »


My orthodoxy is tingling.
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« Reply #5273 on: July 16, 2014, 06:57:43 AM »


My orthodoxy is tingling.

 Cheesy  Took me a good 20 seconds to get it.
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« Reply #5274 on: July 16, 2014, 07:03:36 AM »


My orthodoxy is tingling.

 Cheesy  Took me a good 20 seconds to get it.

It's because a Coptic priest is vested quite properly! He looks great!...both my priests don't even own cuffs....... but they still spiffy up on the 7 Major, and sometimes 7 minor, Feasts
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« Reply #5275 on: July 16, 2014, 07:05:39 AM »



I was thinking that Christ's senses were tingling, as this hero is wont to do.
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« Reply #5276 on: July 16, 2014, 10:11:04 AM »


A patriarch hasn't laughed this hard before haha
I love HH Pope Tawadros II!

Since his predecessor...


http://mamafayza.tripod.com/design/pope-shenouda-laughs.jpg

I'm sorry, I can't see a photo here, all I see is a photo hosting logo. Smiley

Click on that link...apparently it won't allow photos to be shown in other sites.
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« Reply #5277 on: July 16, 2014, 10:13:59 AM »


My orthodoxy is tingling.

 Cheesy  Took me a good 20 seconds to get it.

It's because a Coptic priest is vested quite properly! He looks great!...both my priests don't even own cuffs....... but they still spiffy up on the 7 Major, and sometimes 7 minor, Feasts
Do the Copts have less strict vestment rules than the Byzantine tradition? What about a feast would require different vestments than usual?
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« Reply #5278 on: July 16, 2014, 10:37:53 AM »


My orthodoxy is tingling.

 Cheesy  Took me a good 20 seconds to get it.

It's because a Coptic priest is vested quite properly! He looks great!...both my priests don't even own cuffs....... but they still spiffy up on the 7 Major, and sometimes 7 minor, Feasts
Do the Copts have less strict vestment rules than the Byzantine tradition? What about a feast would require different vestments than usual?

The answer is kinda yes. Our rules are strict, BUT no one really adheres to them, so I suppose they don't hold much weight. This priest is only missing a certain kind of shoulder padding on phelonion that only our bishops wear now but would technically be considered a part of the "rules". That priest is vested as properly as I've ever seen(for the Coptic rite). Usually the average priest only wears his tonia (white garment) and the headgear you see. My priests wear the epitrachelion in a much simpler style, but only over their black and only for vespers, matins, and liturgies on feast days. Almost no priests that I'm aware of wear cuffs. Some wear the belt a few times a year. Some wear the epitrachelion for liturgy regularly. But we've lost a lot in the vesting category in the past 50 years. Its in part due to Pope Shenouda's example. He also limited us down to 3 liturgies among other changes. He was an amazing spiritual father though.
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« Reply #5279 on: July 16, 2014, 10:49:14 AM »


My orthodoxy is tingling.

 Cheesy  Took me a good 20 seconds to get it.

It's because a Coptic priest is vested quite properly! He looks great!...both my priests don't even own cuffs....... but they still spiffy up on the 7 Major, and sometimes 7 minor, Feasts
Do the Copts have less strict vestment rules than the Byzantine tradition? What about a feast would require different vestments than usual?

Well, I guess the latest trend you can call it a bit more "humble" in vesting.  Consider this picture of HH Pope Shenouda:



Regularly, he would at the very least wear a stole (I'm not sure the name, not the thin stoles of deacons, but thick middle vestment put over the cloak).  Instead, he's wearing what any cantor and regular monk would wear.  You may not be even able to tell the difference between a priest and a bishop in that picture, and if he didn't have the white "kolonsowa" on his head, but just the black, you might not even be able to tell if he was a monk or monk-clergy.

Here's another example, with a presbyter and a bishop:



And here as well with a hegumen, who should look different in vestment from a presbyter:



Contrast this with what a bishop usually would be wearing:



Or even grander:

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« Reply #5280 on: July 16, 2014, 11:02:41 AM »

Mina, the thicker middle stole is an epitrachelion. Greek for literally "around the neck. I forget the name in Arabic for it, but I like the greek one, it makes sense. The last picture has HG Bishop David(my bishop) on the day of his ordination. Antonis, HG is wearing the extra shoulder piece on the phelonion that I spoke about. It is generally only worn by bishops now. And the "humble" look is extreme for priests when a bishop is presiding. If anything I think you should be dressed up for your bishop. Don't we wear a nicer tie that day? Why not the epitrachelion, belt or cuffs for priests?
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« Reply #5281 on: July 16, 2014, 11:06:32 AM »



Oh shoot! I'm in this picture!!! Look in the back left. Above the guy taking a picture! I'm the kid with big hair and glasses! And my friend is to the left of me! Small world haha!!!

If Mor reads this, yes I was wearing a reader's stole, but I'm not a reader. They gave them out so the choir looked nice and uniform.

If you find the video of the enthronement, or pictures, when HG reads the gospel I'm one of the "deacons" holding a camera next to him. Boss mode.
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« Reply #5282 on: July 16, 2014, 11:09:22 AM »

Very interesting, thank you. In the Byzantine tradition certain vestments are seen as necessary for certain services, and the epitrachelion is necessary for all sacraments/services. I can't really imagine them just being phased out without some major protests (and rightfully so, I feel).

What is the justification usually given for this practice?
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« Reply #5283 on: July 16, 2014, 11:15:42 AM »


A patriarch hasn't laughed this hard before haha
I love HH Pope Tawadros II!

Since his predecessor...


http://mamafayza.tripod.com/design/pope-shenouda-laughs.jpg

I'm sorry, I can't see a photo here, all I see is a photo hosting logo. Smiley

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« Reply #5284 on: July 16, 2014, 11:21:44 AM »

Very interesting, thank you. In the Byzantine tradition certain vestments are seen as necessary for certain services, and the epitrachelion is necessary for all sacraments/services. I can't really imagine them just being phased out without some major protests (and rightfully so, I feel).

What is the justification usually given for this practice?

The justification? There are 2 excuses haha.
Humility, which I think its more humble to obey the rules of the fathers, even if you don't want to for fear of looking lavish. The other is that back in the day(way back) vestments were so lavish the laity couldn't tell a bishop from a priest. And for some confusion. Vestments started to change.
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« Reply #5285 on: July 16, 2014, 12:19:12 PM »

Very interesting, thank you. In the Byzantine tradition certain vestments are seen as necessary for certain services, and the epitrachelion is necessary for all sacraments/services. I can't really imagine them just being phased out without some major protests (and rightfully so, I feel).

What is the justification usually given for this practice?

The justification? There are 2 excuses haha.
Humility, which I think its more humble to obey the rules of the fathers, even if you don't want to for fear of looking lavish. The other is that back in the day(way back) vestments were so lavish the laity couldn't tell a bishop from a priest. And for some confusion. Vestments started to change.
That's odd!  Tongue I can understand the desire to use a plain white cloak/sticharion as that is likely more traditional, but it seems to me the solution to lavish vestments is less lavish-ness, not less vestments!   laugh
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« Reply #5286 on: July 16, 2014, 12:26:11 PM »

Very interesting, thank you. In the Byzantine tradition certain vestments are seen as necessary for certain services, and the epitrachelion is necessary for all sacraments/services. I can't really imagine them just being phased out without some major protests (and rightfully so, I feel).

What is the justification usually given for this practice?

The justification? There are 2 excuses haha.
Humility, which I think its more humble to obey the rules of the fathers, even if you don't want to for fear of looking lavish. The other is that back in the day(way back) vestments were so lavish the laity couldn't tell a bishop from a priest. And for some confusion. Vestments started to change.
That's odd!  Tongue I can understand the desire to use a plain white cloak/sticharion as that is likely more traditional, but it seems to me the solution to lavish vestments is less lavish-ness, not less vestments!   laugh

Someone get this guy a mitre......because he's saying what I've said but they won't listen to me haha
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« Reply #5287 on: July 16, 2014, 12:53:29 PM »

The justification? There are 2 excuses haha.
Humility, which I think its more humble to obey the rules of the fathers, even if you don't want to for fear of looking lavish.

I agree.  Who was more humble than H.H. Pope Kyrillos VI?





The other is that back in the day(way back) vestments were so lavish the laity couldn't tell a bishop from a priest.

As with the confusion over "deacons" vs. deacons, I would think the solution here would be education.

I always wondered if this was a matter of H.H. Pope Shenouda III eschewing his vestments as a personal practice, and then the bishops and priests serving with and under him shedding theirs because a) they were following his example and/or b) they didn't want to be so bold as to "outshine" the Patriarch in terms of grandeur?  It's not like an order was issued to ditch the epimanikia, et cetera, as orders are being issued now to dump tonias with saints on them, right?
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« Reply #5288 on: July 16, 2014, 01:50:50 PM »

The justification? There are 2 excuses haha.
Humility, which I think its more humble to obey the rules of the fathers, even if you don't want to for fear of looking lavish.

I agree.  Who was more humble than H.H. Pope Kyrillos VI?





The other is that back in the day(way back) vestments were so lavish the laity couldn't tell a bishop from a priest.

As with the confusion over "deacons" vs. deacons, I would think the solution here would be education.

I always wondered if this was a matter of H.H. Pope Shenouda III eschewing his vestments as a personal practice, and then the bishops and priests serving with and under him shedding theirs because a) they were following his example and/or b) they didn't want to be so bold as to "outshine" the Patriarch in terms of grandeur?  It's not like an order was issued to ditch the epimanikia, et cetera, as orders are being issued now to dump tonias with saints on them, right?

Tonias with saints on them is a different topic completely. I'm okay with that decision. I didn't want to bring up deacons but since we're already here......
Yes education is uber important! But I think we should do the following
A) gather men from across Egypt and the diaspora who are willing and worthy to take up the diaconate, get their priests and bishops on board, get them all to attend the same seminary, ordain and concentrate them in the Cathedral. Send them to their parishes.

B) Reinstate censing and The prayer of litanies for REAL deacons and send a papal message to be read clarifying these matters.
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« Reply #5289 on: July 16, 2014, 07:21:14 PM »

Tonias with saints on them is a different topic completely. I'm okay with that decision.

Me too.


I didn't want to bring up deacons but since we're already here......
Yes education is uber important! But I think we should do the following
A) gather men from across Egypt and the diaspora who are willing and worthy to take up the diaconate, get their priests and bishops on board, get them all to attend the same seminary, ordain and concentrate them in the Cathedral. Send them to their parishes.

B) Reinstate censing and The prayer of litanies for REAL deacons and send a papal message to be read clarifying these matters.

AMEN!  I'm with that all the way, except that I don't think they all need to attend the same seminary...just an Orthodox seminary.
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« Reply #5290 on: July 16, 2014, 07:39:12 PM »

Mina, the thicker middle stole is an epitrachelion. Greek for literally "around the neck. I forget the name in Arabic for it, but I like the greek one, it makes sense. The last picture has HG Bishop David(my bishop) on the day of his ordination. Antonis, HG is wearing the extra shoulder piece on the phelonion that I spoke about. It is generally only worn by bishops now. And the "humble" look is extreme for priests when a bishop is presiding. If anything I think you should be dressed up for your bishop. Don't we wear a nicer tie that day? Why not the epitrachelion, belt or cuffs for priests?

I wish to see the epitrachelion with the 12 Apostles, or at least this vestment in our bishops:



I've seen something similar by presbyters particularly on Good Friday:

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« Reply #5291 on: July 16, 2014, 07:45:43 PM »

Beautiful.  I feel blessed to live in an era when God is restoring the fullness and the beauty of the Coptic Orthodox Church.  The diaconate will soon be restored to what it was, the appropriate vestments of the priests and bishops are will return, and the crypto-Protestant "missions" will be dispersed like the counsel of Ahitophel.  I feel like we're in the very early days of a Coptic renaissance.  Glory to God.
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« Reply #5292 on: July 17, 2014, 05:48:23 AM »



He plays a mean guitar

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« Reply #5293 on: July 17, 2014, 06:58:42 AM »

The thread is becoming too eastern and too manly. So, to balance it, lets share a western tradition with a little bit of feminine power  Grin



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« Reply #5294 on: July 17, 2014, 07:06:45 AM »

^And we'll just go ahead and fix that.

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« Reply #5295 on: July 17, 2014, 07:11:32 AM »

One good turn deserves another



Taken from the article Why Orthodox Men Love Church.
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« Reply #5296 on: July 17, 2014, 07:21:58 AM »

For our OO brothers:

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« Reply #5297 on: July 17, 2014, 07:24:18 AM »

My T-level just spiked.  Anyone else?
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« Reply #5298 on: July 17, 2014, 07:27:55 AM »

Yeah.  I'm going to lift some weights and blast my Byzantine playlist.  Maybe eat a grilled ribeye and nothing else.

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« Reply #5299 on: July 17, 2014, 07:29:45 AM »

Lest anyone accuse me of sexism, these godly women are more warriors than I can ever strive to be:

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« Reply #5300 on: July 17, 2014, 07:31:16 AM »

^And we'll just go ahead and fix that.



Ouch! Patriarch Kirill I is one the reasons I'm not Eastern Orthodox.
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« Reply #5301 on: July 17, 2014, 07:32:29 AM »

Lest anyone accuse me of sexism, these godly women are more warriors than I can ever strive to be:



Why they are not smiling ? I find it very very rare to find Orthodox nuns with smile on their face.  Undecided
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« Reply #5302 on: July 17, 2014, 07:33:51 AM »

Happiness is fleeting.  Joy in unceasing prayer is a much more worthy goal. 
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« Reply #5303 on: July 17, 2014, 07:37:46 AM »

^And we'll just go ahead and fix that.



Ouch! Patriarch Kirill I is one the reasons I'm not Eastern Orthodox.

Why?

Here's why I'm Orthodox.

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CopticDeacon
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« Reply #5304 on: July 17, 2014, 07:46:04 AM »

Why "orthodox men love church" is a completely legit and awesome article I read a while ago. It spoke to me and I've mentioned and used it in conversations. When I saw that picture of patriarch Kirill I almost died. It was posted and worded in such a funny way! Have you seen Archbishop Khajag Barsamian of New York' liturgical hat? It would hit the top of my church's Holy Door in the Iconastasis! So manly! Armenians rule!


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« Reply #5305 on: July 17, 2014, 07:48:22 AM »

^And we'll just go ahead and fix that.



Ouch! Patriarch Kirill I is one the reasons I'm not Eastern Orthodox.

Why?

Here's why I'm Orthodox.



Here's why I'm orthodox: trying to do this erry day

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"I see the heavens opened up, and the Son of Man seated at the right hand of God"
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« Reply #5306 on: July 17, 2014, 07:49:13 AM »

The first OO Liturgy I saw online was the Armenian one with the Archbishop.  It's on Youtube and explains all the parts in the Armenian Liturgy.  Yeah...Orthodoxy...Hats...Love it.
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« Reply #5307 on: July 17, 2014, 07:50:14 AM »

Lest anyone accuse me of sexism, these godly women are more warriors than I can ever strive to be:



Why they are not smiling ? I find it very very rare to find Orthodox nuns with smile on their face.  Undecided

Perhaps you should visit a nunnery.
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Love is not blind; that is the last thing that it is. Love is bound; and the more it is bound the less it is blind.

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« Reply #5308 on: July 17, 2014, 07:52:35 AM »

^Both during and after Liturgy.  Liturgy is hard, spiritual work; it's not time to smile and laugh.  Nuns like smiling like anyone else.
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« Reply #5309 on: July 17, 2014, 07:58:13 AM »

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Love is not blind; that is the last thing that it is. Love is bound; and the more it is bound the less it is blind.

—G.K. Chesterton
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