OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 18, 2014, 09:59:12 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Picture of the Day  (Read 222306 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Nikolaostheservant
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: greek orthodox
Jurisdiction: christian
Posts: 603



« Reply #2340 on: November 03, 2012, 08:57:17 PM »

GREATEST ICONOSTASIS EVER!



reminds me of those slick all glass elevators at the mall
Logged
Ioannis Climacus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 863


"There is no religion higher than TRUTH"


« Reply #2341 on: November 03, 2012, 09:11:21 PM »

GREATEST ICONOSTASIS EVER!


I used to visit when I lived nearby (I was only 2 hours away). A lovely parish with a wonderful priest.
Logged

Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.
Punch
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #2342 on: November 03, 2012, 09:23:32 PM »

GREATEST ICONOSTASIS EVER!



reminds me of those slick all glass elevators at the mall


New Age
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #2343 on: November 03, 2012, 09:41:59 PM »

There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to begin...

GREATEST ICONOSTASIS EVER!


Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,313


« Reply #2344 on: November 04, 2012, 03:22:35 AM »

There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to begin...

GREATEST ICONOSTASIS EVER!



Thank you, Father. I was berated for disliking something like this in another thread. I am glad that at least one priest would agree with me.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,016



WWW
« Reply #2345 on: November 04, 2012, 03:30:16 AM »


I thought his parish was the "blue" church.
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #2346 on: November 04, 2012, 03:32:41 AM »

There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to begin...

GREATEST ICONOSTASIS EVER!



I wish you would at least try. 
Logged
celticfan1888
Production Operator - Chemtrusion
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholicism
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 3,026



« Reply #2347 on: November 04, 2012, 03:22:09 PM »

There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to begin...

GREATEST ICONOSTASIS EVER!



I agree!
Logged

Forgive my sins.
Serg-antr
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 105



« Reply #2348 on: November 04, 2012, 03:48:21 PM »

Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #2349 on: November 04, 2012, 03:58:23 PM »

There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to begin...

Can you elaborate?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
W.A.Mozart
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox christian
Jurisdiction: Eschaton
Posts: 489


Lazare, veni foras!


« Reply #2350 on: November 05, 2012, 04:53:11 AM »

I dont think he can because there isnt a single dogmatic or ecclesial reason why this kind of iconostasis should be proclaimed a heresy, new age or anything similar. However, chances that f. Giryus will elaborate are slim. In the words of Alf -slim as out of town-
Logged

completely new, especially not yet used
W.A.Mozart
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox christian
Jurisdiction: Eschaton
Posts: 489


Lazare, veni foras!


« Reply #2351 on: November 05, 2012, 04:57:20 AM »

GREATEST ICONOSTASIS EVER!





Logged

completely new, especially not yet used
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #2352 on: November 05, 2012, 05:43:23 AM »


I feel my two worlds colliding -- pleasantly.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #2353 on: November 05, 2012, 11:26:54 AM »

Well, from a historical perspective, the most ancient part of the 'screen' has been utterly done away with: the curtain.  It is the one thing that all the ancient churches share, from the Armenians to the Copts to the Orthodox.  I was taught that the icon screen arose in front of the more ancient curtain, and eventually the curtain, rather than going wall-to-wall, became an 'element' of the iconostasis (for practical purposes) not unlike how the white undergarment has been reduced to a plastic strip in the modern 'clergy shirt.'

That loss of historical connection, and its connection to the Old Testament, has been severed here in this picture.  The continuum has been obliterated, yet to forget the Tabernacle and the Temple means to forget Christ who was present there.

This is a bad habit: to make decisions for ourselves and forget those who have come before us and those who will come afterwards.  Removing the curtain means depriving future generations of this as well, and who are we to take away their inheritance.

It is an epidemic.  The iconostasis in my parish also has no curtain because of a similar decision (they voted to have it this way so they could 'see better'), but now the children have no idea what a curtain even is.  They are losing the concept of having to listen... everything is a 'video.'  Because of the design, putting a curtain in means a lot of woodworking will have to be done that will cost money in a time when our roof is falling apart and people are feeling the pinch of the economy.  It will take many years to recover from this mistake.

This type of departure from tradition will also cause those who become accustomed to these kinds of innovations to be less likely to be comfortable in other churches.  The more innovative a parish is in terms of worship and design, the less likely those 'raised' there will integrate into other parishes if they move.  I have run into this countless times, both from immigrants ("It's just not like home.") and from converts ("It's just not like home.").

Standardization means that anyone can come and feel at home.  Too often, we have an impulse to make the parish 'our place' to do what we want and forget our connection to the rest of the Church and even the world.


There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to begin...

Can you elaborate?
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #2354 on: November 05, 2012, 11:40:07 AM »

Don't call me 'Slim,' call me 'Flaco.'

I dont think he can because there isnt a single dogmatic or ecclesial reason why this kind of iconostasis should be proclaimed a heresy, new age or anything similar. However, chances that f. Giryus will elaborate are slim. In the words of Alf -slim as out of town-
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #2355 on: November 05, 2012, 11:46:37 AM »

Sleep it off, Mozart...    Grin
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,016



WWW
« Reply #2356 on: November 05, 2012, 12:42:38 PM »

Well, from a historical perspective, the most ancient part of the 'screen' has been utterly done away with: the curtain.  It is the one thing that all the ancient churches share, from the Armenians to the Copts to the Orthodox.  I was taught that the icon screen arose in front of the more ancient curtain, and eventually the curtain, rather than going wall-to-wall, became an 'element' of the iconostasis (for practical purposes) not unlike how the white undergarment has been reduced to a plastic strip in the modern 'clergy shirt.'

That loss of historical connection, and its connection to the Old Testament, has been severed here in this picture.  The continuum has been obliterated, yet to forget the Tabernacle and the Temple means to forget Christ who was present there.

This is a bad habit: to make decisions for ourselves and forget those who have come before us and those who will come afterwards.  Removing the curtain means depriving future generations of this as well, and who are we to take away their inheritance.

It is an epidemic.  The iconostasis in my parish also has no curtain because of a similar decision (they voted to have it this way so they could 'see better'), but now the children have no idea what a curtain even is.  They are losing the concept of having to listen... everything is a 'video.'  Because of the design, putting a curtain in means a lot of woodworking will have to be done that will cost money in a time when our roof is falling apart and people are feeling the pinch of the economy.  It will take many years to recover from this mistake.

This type of departure from tradition will also cause those who become accustomed to these kinds of innovations to be less likely to be comfortable in other churches.  The more innovative a parish is in terms of worship and design, the less likely those 'raised' there will integrate into other parishes if they move.  I have run into this countless times, both from immigrants ("It's just not like home.") and from converts ("It's just not like home.").

Standardization means that anyone can come and feel at home.  Too often, we have an impulse to make the parish 'our place' to do what we want and forget our connection to the rest of the Church and even the world.


There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to begin...

Can you elaborate?

Well put, Father.

We need to preserve Tradition.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Fabio Leite
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 3,141



WWW
« Reply #2357 on: November 05, 2012, 01:05:15 PM »

Regarding changes such as in the iconostasis.

People used to joing something because they liked it and wanted to be part of it.

Today they join it because they have in mind how they have so much to improve it and make it modern, that is, precisely because they don't like what already exists and want to change it. It's pretty much like getting married not liking much about the person but thinking on how much better the person will be after you're done with him/her in some years. And with more or less the same consequences: either you destroy the person trying to force him/her to be something he/she is not, or you get so dissappointed that you leave.
Logged

Many Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #2358 on: November 05, 2012, 01:20:11 PM »

To tag onto what you'd said, there is another 'reason' for converting: people can use parts of the Tradition to justify their 'pre-existing conditions.'  This is fairly common out here.

I always get worried when I start hearing, "Oh, yes, I have always believed that!"  They find the Church agreeing with them, rather than the other way around.  I try to warn them that for every agreement there will be another or even several disagreements and you will have to make a choice.  The problem is that people can become so enamored with what they like (just like dating, I'm afraid) that they forget to examine the 'disagreements.'

Then we have 'selective traditionalism' which I think can be seen in this 'iconostasis.'  We like the colorful pictures, but don't like the less colorful stuff that 'blocks the view.'  So, away goes part while another stays.

Don't want aa curtain?  Then go Western and you can have an older tradition without it (there altar curtains were torn down by the 6th c. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rood_screen#Early_medieval_altar_screens_and_chancel_screens).

Frankly, I find most of these modern 'reforms' simply in bad taste.  There is nothing beautiful about the stick 'iconostasis'.  It looks fabricated and cheap.  Everywhere I have seen these 'peek-a-boo' things put up, I've seen nothing particularly artistic, create, or even beautiful.  Wrought iron is cold and forbidding.  Industrialized.  Dead.  A friend of mine servings in a church with a wrought-iron iconostasis, and it looks more forbidding than a prison fence-line... all in the name of being more 'open.'

Yuk.


Regarding changes such as in the iconostasis.

People used to joing something because they liked it and wanted to be part of it.

Today they join it because they have in mind how they have so much to improve it and make it modern, that is, precisely because they don't like what already exists and want to change it. It's pretty much like getting married not liking much about the person but thinking on how much better the person will be after you're done with him/her in some years. And with more or less the same consequences: either you destroy the person trying to force him/her to be something he/she is not, or you get so dissappointed that you leave.
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
sheenj
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Indian/Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Posts: 1,401


St. Gregorios of Parumala, pray for us...


« Reply #2359 on: November 05, 2012, 01:32:17 PM »

Regarding changes such as in the iconostasis.

People used to joing something because they liked it and wanted to be part of it.

Today they join it because they have in mind how they have so much to improve it and make it modern, that is, precisely because they don't like what already exists and want to change it.

How about you speak for yourself and stop putting words in other people's mouths?
Logged
Fabio Leite
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 3,141



WWW
« Reply #2360 on: November 05, 2012, 03:01:33 PM »

How about not making so clear that a hat found its head? Wink

Besides, I talk from experience, from seeing far too many people join the Orthodox Church to immediately put themselves up to the job of "modernizing" it, that is, make it fit their own personality. Not everybody, not most, but enough for there existing an entire "trend" that thinks itself "liberal" (not in the political sense necessarily). As a teacher, I know that attitude all too well: people who have not even got past the basics and already think they can discuss with the great minds of the subject and question their wisdom.


Regarding changes such as in the iconostasis.

People used to joing something because they liked it and wanted to be part of it.

Today they join it because they have in mind how they have so much to improve it and make it modern, that is, precisely because they don't like what already exists and want to change it.

How about you speak for yourself and stop putting words in other people's mouths?

Logged

Many Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
Punch
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #2361 on: November 05, 2012, 03:15:26 PM »

I've seen the same thing.

How about not making so clear that a hat found its head? Wink

Besides, I talk from experience, from seeing far too many people join the Orthodox Church to immediately put themselves up to the job of "modernizing" it, that is, make it fit their own personality. Not everybody, not most, but enough for there existing an entire "trend" that thinks itself "liberal" (not in the political sense necessarily). As a teacher, I know that attitude all too well: people who have not even got past the basics and already think they can discuss with the great minds of the subject and question their wisdom.


Regarding changes such as in the iconostasis.

People used to joing something because they liked it and wanted to be part of it.

Today they join it because they have in mind how they have so much to improve it and make it modern, that is, precisely because they don't like what already exists and want to change it.

How about you speak for yourself and stop putting words in other people's mouths?


Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,213


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #2362 on: November 05, 2012, 04:29:07 PM »

Me being bored. Behold, a bad photoshop of Stalin browsing OC.net

« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 04:35:39 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

"But slay her he did not, for between dream and deed laws and practicalities remain"
-Willem Elschot, 'The Marriage'.
WeldeMikael
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 506


« Reply #2363 on: November 05, 2012, 04:40:40 PM »

And now after :


« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 04:40:54 PM by WeldeMikael » Logged
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,007


"My god is greater."


« Reply #2364 on: November 05, 2012, 04:42:59 PM »

Me being bored. Behold, a bad photoshop of Stalin browsing OC.net



It's got your avatar... who are you again?
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,213


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #2365 on: November 05, 2012, 04:45:09 PM »

It's me, Iosif Dzjoegasjvili.
Logged

"But slay her he did not, for between dream and deed laws and practicalities remain"
-Willem Elschot, 'The Marriage'.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,502



« Reply #2366 on: November 05, 2012, 04:47:41 PM »


I feel my two worlds colliding -- pleasantly.

Dr. Freud's Calendar:
        ___________________
 8:00    F                           |
 9:00      i                          |
10:00       e                       |
11:00         l                      |
12:00          d                    |
13:00                                |
14:00       D                       |
15:00          a                     |
16:00            y                   |
17:00___________________|                             
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,313


« Reply #2367 on: November 05, 2012, 05:09:28 PM »

Me being bored. Behold, a bad photoshop of Stalin browsing OC.net



I love this.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
sheenj
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Indian/Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Posts: 1,401


St. Gregorios of Parumala, pray for us...


« Reply #2368 on: November 05, 2012, 05:17:45 PM »

How about not making so clear that a hat found its head? Wink



Regarding changes such as in the iconostasis.

People used to joing something because they liked it and wanted to be part of it.

Today they join it because they have in mind how they have so much to improve it and make it modern, that is, precisely because they don't like what already exists and want to change it.

How about you speak for yourself and stop putting words in other people's mouths?

Like I said, stop putting words in peoples' mouths. I'm actually pretty much as traditional as they get. I just don't presume to know other peoples' motivations.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 05:20:09 PM by sheenj » Logged
Punch
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #2369 on: November 05, 2012, 05:50:13 PM »

Your attack on Fabio seems rather hypocritical for someone so presumably Holy.  Particularly since he was not talking to you, and what he said rings with a lot of truth.

How about not making so clear that a hat found its head? Wink



Regarding changes such as in the iconostasis.

People used to joing something because they liked it and wanted to be part of it.

Today they join it because they have in mind how they have so much to improve it and make it modern, that is, precisely because they don't like what already exists and want to change it.

How about you speak for yourself and stop putting words in other people's mouths?

Like I said, stop putting words in peoples' mouths. I'm actually pretty much as traditional as they get. I just don't presume to know other peoples' motivations.
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
sheenj
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Indian/Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Posts: 1,401


St. Gregorios of Parumala, pray for us...


« Reply #2370 on: November 05, 2012, 06:08:44 PM »

Your attack on Fabio seems rather hypocritical for someone so presumably Holy.  Particularly since he was not talking to you, and what he said rings with a lot of truth.

How about not making so clear that a hat found its head? Wink



Regarding changes such as in the iconostasis.

People used to joing something because they liked it and wanted to be part of it.

Today they join it because they have in mind how they have so much to improve it and make it modern, that is, precisely because they don't like what already exists and want to change it.

How about you speak for yourself and stop putting words in other people's mouths?

Like I said, stop putting words in peoples' mouths. I'm actually pretty much as traditional as they get. I just don't presume to know other peoples' motivations.


I didn't mean attack him, I just strongly disagree with this statement:
Quote
People used to join something because they liked it and wanted to be part of it.

Today they join it because they have in mind how they have so much to improve it and make it modern, that is, precisely because they don't like what already exists and want to change it.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 06:09:36 PM by sheenj » Logged
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #2371 on: November 05, 2012, 06:33:10 PM »

To tag onto what you'd said, there is another 'reason' for converting: people can use parts of the Tradition to justify their 'pre-existing conditions.'  This is fairly common out here.

I always get worried when I start hearing, "Oh, yes, I have always believed that!"  They find the Church agreeing with them, rather than the other way around.  I try to warn them that for every agreement there will be another or even several disagreements and you will have to make a choice.  The problem is that people can become so enamored with what they like (just like dating, I'm afraid) that they forget to examine the 'disagreements.'

Then we have 'selective traditionalism' which I think can be seen in this 'iconostasis.'  We like the colorful pictures, but don't like the less colorful stuff that 'blocks the view.'  So, away goes part while another stays.

Don't want aa curtain?  Then go Western and you can have an older tradition without it (there altar curtains were torn down by the 6th c. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rood_screen#Early_medieval_altar_screens_and_chancel_screens).

Frankly, I find most of these modern 'reforms' simply in bad taste.  There is nothing beautiful about the stick 'iconostasis'.  It looks fabricated and cheap.  Everywhere I have seen these 'peek-a-boo' things put up, I've seen nothing particularly artistic, create, or even beautiful.  Wrought iron is cold and forbidding.  Industrialized.  Dead.  A friend of mine servings in a church with a wrought-iron iconostasis, and it looks more forbidding than a prison fence-line... all in the name of being more 'open.'

Yuk.

If people are concerned about being able to see what the priest is doing at the altar, why not simply leave a wider space for the beautiful door? I am always surprised at the tendency to squeeze in an unnecessary column or two of additional icons at the expense of the doors.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #2372 on: November 06, 2012, 11:27:19 AM »

As one who serves in an Altar with a huge 'gate,' I can tell you that this is a real problem for the clergy actually trying to serve with big doors.

The reason: when opening and closing the doors, the clergy have to move around them.  The larger the doors, the more you have to move.  I have an 84-year-old deacon who doesn't 'side-step' the way he used to (he is also a bit hard of hearing, so when I've whispered "Open the doors" he will intone "Let us pray to the Lord!").  I'm constantly having to mind him while we swing the doors open or closed, because I don't want him to fall and break something.  The solution is that I often have to ignore the Typikon and keep the doors either open or closed more than called for because of all the shifting that has to go on.

The honest truth is that there really isn't that much to see, and there is a great deal more to hear.  What has happened with 'visual' parishes is that paying attention to what is being sung often takes second place.  Older churches hav stasidi facing in directions where see ing the Altar is impossible.  That's because our forebearers understood the importance of listening.  These days, I can't give a lecture or a talk without a chalkboard and a handout, because the audio-retention of the Average American is abysmal... and we don't help them listen.

There is something spiritually important about listening, and I think our modern culture experiences a great deal of its loneliness because people no longer listen.  Talk to someone who has lost his hearing, and he will tell you how isolating it is.  A blind man is not isolated from others the way a deaf man is.  Modern technology is making us all feel more isolated and alone in part, I believe, because it is taking away our skills of listening, particularly to one another.

When we come to church, we want to 'see,' so much so that we jamb service books under our noses even when the choir is singing in our own language... and, perhaps even intelligibly!  We watch and look, but we don't hear and we listen even less.  We can hum a took, but not absorb the words.  You may be able to repeat the words, but do you get their implication?


To tag onto what you'd said, there is another 'reason' for converting: people can use parts of the Tradition to justify their 'pre-existing conditions.'  This is fairly common out here.

I always get worried when I start hearing, "Oh, yes, I have always believed that!"  They find the Church agreeing with them, rather than the other way around.  I try to warn them that for every agreement there will be another or even several disagreements and you will have to make a choice.  The problem is that people can become so enamored with what they like (just like dating, I'm afraid) that they forget to examine the 'disagreements.'

Then we have 'selective traditionalism' which I think can be seen in this 'iconostasis.'  We like the colorful pictures, but don't like the less colorful stuff that 'blocks the view.'  So, away goes part while another stays.

Don't want aa curtain?  Then go Western and you can have an older tradition without it (there altar curtains were torn down by the 6th c. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rood_screen#Early_medieval_altar_screens_and_chancel_screens).

Frankly, I find most of these modern 'reforms' simply in bad taste.  There is nothing beautiful about the stick 'iconostasis'.  It looks fabricated and cheap.  Everywhere I have seen these 'peek-a-boo' things put up, I've seen nothing particularly artistic, create, or even beautiful.  Wrought iron is cold and forbidding.  Industrialized.  Dead.  A friend of mine servings in a church with a wrought-iron iconostasis, and it looks more forbidding than a prison fence-line... all in the name of being more 'open.'

Yuk.

If people are concerned about being able to see what the priest is doing at the altar, why not simply leave a wider space for the beautiful door? I am always surprised at the tendency to squeeze in an unnecessary column or two of additional icons at the expense of the doors.
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Fabio Leite
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 3,141



WWW
« Reply #2373 on: November 06, 2012, 11:38:54 AM »

People have lost also the sense of mistery. It is covered because there wisdom in not seeing and not knowing some things. We simply cannot bear to not know and in this barbaric impulse we dessacrate everything.

I use to say that we have completely lost the sense of intimacy. Relationships are public -sometimes even visually so - sex is openly discussed in graphic details, "spousal love" instead of an intimate relationship between a man and woman is just friendship (which is a social, "exterior" kind of relationship) with sex involved.

Once people have lost this sense of their own mistery that is intimacy, the sacred, which is the intimacy of God, becomes completely unimaginable, an utter repulsively arbitrary "rule". It is as Jesus said: "If you don't love that which you see, how will you love that that you cannot see?"  The same goes for mistery, which in individual lives is what is intimate and in religious life what is sacred: something that even if you are able to see, you must not look towards it, you must not touch it, you must treat it with reverence. In a sense it is an ascetic fasting of experience that opens the nous to a kind of glory the irreverent is completely blind to.

This lust to change everything, to modernize everything, to unite with everyone, to reveal everything has the same roots of our modern promiscuity, this loss of wonder in face of mistery.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 11:43:05 AM by Fabio Leite » Logged

Many Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #2374 on: November 06, 2012, 06:20:46 PM »

Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,401


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #2375 on: November 06, 2012, 06:23:52 PM »

How did the same church teleport?
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #2376 on: November 07, 2012, 07:08:37 AM »

Well, from a historical perspective, the most ancient part of the 'screen' has been utterly done away with: the curtain.  It is the one thing that all the ancient churches share, from the Armenians to the Copts to the Orthodox.  I was taught that the icon screen arose in front of the more ancient curtain, and eventually the curtain, rather than going wall-to-wall, became an 'element' of the iconostasis (for practical purposes) not unlike how the white undergarment has been reduced to a plastic strip in the modern 'clergy shirt.'

That loss of historical connection, and its connection to the Old Testament, has been severed here in this picture.  The continuum has been obliterated, yet to forget the Tabernacle and the Temple means to forget Christ who was present there.

This is a bad habit: to make decisions for ourselves and forget those who have come before us and those who will come afterwards.  Removing the curtain means depriving future generations of this as well, and who are we to take away their inheritance.

It is an epidemic.  The iconostasis in my parish also has no curtain because of a similar decision (they voted to have it this way so they could 'see better'), but now the children have no idea what a curtain even is.  They are losing the concept of having to listen... everything is a 'video.'  Because of the design, putting a curtain in means a lot of woodworking will have to be done that will cost money in a time when our roof is falling apart and people are feeling the pinch of the economy.  It will take many years to recover from this mistake.

This type of departure from tradition will also cause those who become accustomed to these kinds of innovations to be less likely to be comfortable in other churches.  The more innovative a parish is in terms of worship and design, the less likely those 'raised' there will integrate into other parishes if they move.  I have run into this countless times, both from immigrants ("It's just not like home.") and from converts ("It's just not like home.").

Standardization means that anyone can come and feel at home.  Too often, we have an impulse to make the parish 'our place' to do what we want and forget our connection to the rest of the Church and even the world.


There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to begin...

Can you elaborate?
Sounds pretty clear to me, and makes sense.  Thank you for taking your time to explain. 
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #2377 on: November 07, 2012, 07:12:01 AM »

I talk from experience, from seeing far too many people join the Orthodox Church to immediately put themselves up to the job of "modernizing" it,

That is interesting to me due to my finding the Orthodox Church appealing, in part, because it hasn't been modernized. 

An old American saying goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

I agree far too many people attempt to fix something that isn't broken, for nothing more than making it "updated."
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #2378 on: November 07, 2012, 07:13:10 AM »

Me being bored. Behold, a bad photoshop of Stalin browsing OC.net



If he has one redeeming factor, it’s that he is smoking a pipe. Grin
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #2379 on: November 07, 2012, 07:14:51 AM »

To tag onto what you'd said, there is another 'reason' for converting: people can use parts of the Tradition to justify their 'pre-existing conditions.'  This is fairly common out here.

I always get worried when I start hearing, "Oh, yes, I have always believed that!"  They find the Church agreeing with them, rather than the other way around.  I try to warn them that for every agreement there will be another or even several disagreements and you will have to make a choice.  The problem is that people can become so enamored with what they like (just like dating, I'm afraid) that they forget to examine the 'disagreements.'

Then we have 'selective traditionalism' which I think can be seen in this 'iconostasis.'  We like the colorful pictures, but don't like the less colorful stuff that 'blocks the view.'  So, away goes part while another stays.

Don't want aa curtain?  Then go Western and you can have an older tradition without it (there altar curtains were torn down by the 6th c. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rood_screen#Early_medieval_altar_screens_and_chancel_screens).

Frankly, I find most of these modern 'reforms' simply in bad taste.  There is nothing beautiful about the stick 'iconostasis'.  It looks fabricated and cheap.  Everywhere I have seen these 'peek-a-boo' things put up, I've seen nothing particularly artistic, create, or even beautiful.  Wrought iron is cold and forbidding.  Industrialized.  Dead.  A friend of mine servings in a church with a wrought-iron iconostasis, and it looks more forbidding than a prison fence-line... all in the name of being more 'open.'

Yuk.

If people are concerned about being able to see what the priest is doing at the altar, why not simply leave a wider space for the beautiful door? I am always surprised at the tendency to squeeze in an unnecessary column or two of additional icons at the expense of the doors.

Or volunteer to assist him during Liturgy.  I have only helped a couple of times and was amazed at how much actually goes on I never knew about. 
« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 07:15:21 AM by Kerdy » Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #2380 on: November 07, 2012, 07:15:32 AM »

Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
W.A.Mozart
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox christian
Jurisdiction: Eschaton
Posts: 489


Lazare, veni foras!


« Reply #2381 on: November 07, 2012, 12:53:54 PM »

Well, from a historical perspective, the most ancient part of the 'screen' has been utterly done away with: the curtain.  It is the one thing that all the ancient churches share, from the Armenians to the Copts to the Orthodox.  I was taught that the icon screen arose in front of the more ancient curtain, and eventually the curtain, rather than going wall-to-wall, became an 'element' of the iconostasis (for practical purposes) not unlike how the white undergarment has been reduced to a plastic strip in the modern 'clergy shirt.'

That loss of historical connection, and its connection to the Old Testament, has been severed here in this picture.  The continuum has been obliterated, yet to forget the Tabernacle and the Temple means to forget Christ who was present there.

This is a bad habit: to make decisions for ourselves and forget those who have come before us and those who will come afterwards.  Removing the curtain means depriving future generations of this as well, and who are we to take away their inheritance.

It is an epidemic.  The iconostasis in my parish also has no curtain because of a similar decision (they voted to have it this way so they could 'see better'), but now the children have no idea what a curtain even is.  They are losing the concept of having to listen... everything is a 'video.'  Because of the design, putting a curtain in means a lot of woodworking will have to be done that will cost money in a time when our roof is falling apart and people are feeling the pinch of the economy.  It will take many years to recover from this mistake.

This type of departure from tradition will also cause those who become accustomed to these kinds of innovations to be less likely to be comfortable in other churches.  The more innovative a parish is in terms of worship and design, the less likely those 'raised' there will integrate into other parishes if they move.  I have run into this countless times, both from immigrants ("It's just not like home.") and from converts ("It's just not like home.").

Standardization means that anyone can come and feel at home.  Too often, we have an impulse to make the parish 'our place' to do what we want and forget our connection to the rest of the Church and even the world.


There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to begin...

Can you elaborate?

Dear fatherGiryus,  the purpose of the  altar is not to separate the Holy Communion from the people but  to make the Holy Communion closer. In the light of this I think that this –transparent- altar  does it functions. 1. shows the place intended for the eucharist and 2. makes it possible for people to be  part of the anaphora. This way, christians gathered in the temple are not only the ones who look at and imagine things happening on the other side of the iconostatsis but the ones who actively participate.
This iconostasis is unusual but it is also  beautiful and maybe, just maybe, it is the best solution between the 2 extremes- the first is an iconostasis which hides the entire altar and the other extreme is – no iconostasis.
About the things you said concerning the old testament… I don’t know what to say but- we live in the time of the new testament and it is the time of complete revelation so we should have a complete worship… if you know what I mean  Grin
Logged

completely new, especially not yet used
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #2382 on: November 07, 2012, 05:26:51 PM »

Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
W.A.Mozart
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox christian
Jurisdiction: Eschaton
Posts: 489


Lazare, veni foras!


« Reply #2383 on: November 07, 2012, 06:58:23 PM »

Logged

completely new, especially not yet used
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #2384 on: November 07, 2012, 08:55:35 PM »

Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.202 seconds with 71 queries.