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Offline Nacho

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The Future "Muslim" Europe
« on: May 11, 2004, 01:01:52 PM »
Muslim Europe
by Daniel Pipes
New York Sun
May 11, 2004


"Europe becomes more and more a province of Islam, a colony of Islam." So declares Oriana Fallaci in her new book, La Forza della Ragione, or, "The Force of Reason." And the famed Italian journalist is right: Christianity's ancient stronghold of Europe is rapidly giving way to Islam.

Two factors mainly contribute to this world-shaking development.

The hollowing out of Christianity. Europe is increasingly a post-Christian society, one with a diminishing connection to its tradition and its historic values. The numbers of believing, observant Christians has collapsed in the past two generations to the point that some observers call it the "new dark continent." Already, analysts estimate Britain's mosques host more worshippers each week than does the Church of England.

An anemic birth rate. Indigenous Europeans are dying out. Sustaining a population requires each woman on average to bear 2.1 children; in the European Union, the overall rate is one-third short, at 1.5 a woman, and falling. One study finds that, should current population trends continue and immigration cease, today's population of 375 million could decline to 275 million by 2075.To keep its working population even, the E.U. needs 1.6 million immigrants a year; to sustain the present workers-to-retirees ratio requires an astonishing 13.5 million immigrants annually.

Into the void are coming Islam and Muslims. As Christianity falters, Islam is robust, assertive, and ambitious. As Europeans underreproduce at advanced ages, Muslims do so in large numbers while young.

Some 5% of the E.U., or nearly 20 million persons, presently identify themselves as Muslims; should current trends continue, that number will reach 10% by 2020. If non-Muslims flee the new Islamic order, as seems likely, the continent could be majority-Muslim within decades.

When that happens, grand cathedrals will appear as vestiges of a prior civilization — at least until a Saudi style regime transforms them into mosques or a Taliban-like regime blows them up. The great national cultures — Italian, French, English, and others — will likely wither, replaced by a new transnational Muslim identity that merges North African, Turkish, subcontinental, and other elements.

This prediction is hardly new. In 1968, the British politician Enoch Powell gave his famed "rivers of blood" speech in which he warned that in allowing excessive immigration, the United Kingdom was "heaping up its own funeral pyre." (Those words stalled a hitherto promising career.) In 1973, the French writer Jean Raspail published Camp of the Saints, a novel that portrays Europe falling to massive, uncontrolled immigration from the Indian subcontinent. The peaceable transformation of a region from one major civilization to another, now under way, has no precedent in human history, making it easy to ignore such voices.

There is still a chance for the transformation not to play itself out, but the prospects diminish with time. Here are several possible ways it might be stopped:

Changes in Europe that lead to a resurgence of Christian faith, an increase in childbearing, or the cultural assimilation of immigrants; such developments can theoretically occur but what would cause them is hard to imagine.

Muslim modernization. For reasons no one has quite figured out (education of women? abortion on demand? adults too self-absorbed to have children ?), modernity leads to a drastic reduction in the birth rate. Also, were the Muslim world to modernize, the attraction of moving to Europe would diminish.

Immigration from other sources. Latin Americans, being Christian, would more or less permit Europe to keep its historic identity. Hindus and Chinese would increase the diversity of cultures, making it less likely that Islam would dominate.

Current trends suggest Islamization will happen, for Europeans seem to find it too strenuous to have children, stop illegal immigration, or even diversify their sources of immigrants. Instead, they prefer to settle unhappily into civilizational senility.

Europe has simultaneously reached unprecedented heights of prosperity and peacefulness and shown a unique inability to sustain itself. One demographer, Wolfgang Lutz, notes, "Negative momentum has not been experienced on a large scale in world history."

Is it inevitable that the most brilliantly successful society also will be the first in danger of collapse due to a lack of cultural confidence and offspring? Ironically, creating a hugely desirable place to live would seem also to be a recipe for suicide. The human comedy continues.

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity

Offline Brendan03

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2004, 01:21:14 PM »
What hyperbole this is!  Yes there are issues, but this article is more humorous than elightening.

"should current trends continue"

This is a key assumption.  If the Muslims come in and are treated as an underclass, segregated from the mainstream of society and living in more or less Islamic gehttoes, then this can create a real social issue, and can breed the frustration that leads to radicalism.  If the Muslims are integrated into the society, however, and allowed to prosper, gradually they may become more like the rest of Europe than you think.  As they become Middle Class, the birtrates would likelu decline and they would become much like other Europeans.  Whether that happens is to some extent a question of policy.

"a Saudi style regime transforms them into mosques or a Taliban-like regime blows them up"

*Raucous laughter*  A Saudi regime?  Come on, where do these writers get this stuff, it belongs in The Onion or something, sheesh.

"The peaceable transformation of a region from one major civilization to another, now under way, has no precedent in human history, making it easy to ignore such voices."

Again, hyperbole.  Europe is not being transformed into the Middle East!  Yes there are a lot of Muslims there now, but still a small slice of the demographic pie overall.  This kind of talk of a civilizational replacement is a gross exaggeration.  The real civilizational replacement that has happened in Europe is the transformation from a Christian society to a post-Christian one, but that has nothing to do with Islam.

"the cultural assimilation of immigrants"

This is the key, I think.  It doesn't mean making them forget they are Muslims, it means creating space for them in the national culture so that they can succeed in that culture and therefore have a stake in the success of that culture.  Britain, despite the stories about the radicals there, has been *largely* successful in this effort.  France has also been mostly successful, but probably less so than Britain.  Germany has probably been the least successful, but they have benefited from the fact that the vast majority of the Muslims in Germany come from Turkey, and are fairly secular in outlook.  In any case, the key is making these people into Muslim Britons, Muslim Frenchmen etc.  Britain is further along that path than many other European nations are because of the legacy of Empire, but it really has to happen elsewhere as well to prevent a ghettoization of the European Muslims.

"modernity leads to a drastic reduction in the birth rate"

It's about wealth and prosperity.  This tends to lead to lower birth rates across the board, even in countries where women work at lower rates than others.

"Also, were the Muslim world to modernize, the attraction of moving to Europe would diminish."

BINGO.  This is also the key to solving the Al Qaida problem.  Bring prosperity and modernity to the middle east and liberal democracy will follow, and the immigration issue will diminish.  Not going to happen through invasion, however, you need the prosperity first before you have a stable democracy.

"Immigration from other sources. Latin Americans, being Christian, would more or less permit Europe to keep its historic identity. Hindus and Chinese would increase the diversity of cultures, making it less likely that Islam would dominate."

Well, Britain has benefitted from this to some degree, with significant numbers of immigrants from the West Indies and India.  Other than that, it seems unlikely that Europe will see immigrants from Asia or Latin America to any significant degree other than the relatively small number of Latin Americans who happen to live in Spain.  The Islamic world is the logical source of immigration just as Mexico and Central America is for the United States.  Geography does, in fact, still play some role in the world.









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Offline Nacho

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2004, 02:04:53 PM »
Quote
What hyperbole this is!  Yes there are issues, but this article is more humorous than elightening

While the writer is certainly opionated & "humurous" with some of his statements, the fact remains that Europe will be drastically different down the road.

Quote
An anemic birth rate. Indigenous Europeans are dying out. Sustaining a population requires each woman on average to bear 2.1 children; in the European Union, the overall rate is one-third short, at 1.5 a woman, and falling. One study finds that, should current population trends continue and immigration cease, today's population of 375 million could decline to 275 million by 2075.To keep its working population even, the E.U. needs 1.6 million immigrants a year; to sustain the present workers-to-retirees ratio requires an astonishing 13.5 million immigrants annually.

I think this is the main crux of the problem. Because western europe has become "secular" and has adopted a "culture of death" as stated by the current Pope, they will continue this slide in native population loss unless they turn back to thier christian heritage. Another problem with western europe are the socialist governments that need huge sums of collected tax money for the current retiring generations benefits & other social programs, which will either fall on the shoulders of the future "depleted" native generation, or on those that are immigrating to western europe to keep the system solvent. It's very likely that many western european countries will face huge decifits down the road. They may be prosperous for now, but someone has to pay for all those nice benefits down the road. It seems the only solution is to keep brinnging the masses in, or face a breakdown in the system.
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity

Offline Brendan03

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2004, 02:11:22 PM »
"the fact remains that Europe will be drastically different down the road."

Maybe, but it is drastically different now than it was in 1950 as well.  The world will be very different in general 50 years from now.

"Another problem with western europe are the socialist governments that need huge sums of collected tax money for the current retiring generations benefits & other social programs, which will either fall on the shoulders of the future "depleted" native generation, or on those that are immigrating to western europe to keep the system solvent."

More likely is that Western Europe will continue to be relatively prosperous thanks to the EU and the expansion of the EU to include Eastern Europe, which will become a protected market for Western European goods, as well as a protected place for supplying cheap resources and labor to Western European companies.  Corporate tax revenues in Western Europe should increase as a result.  In general, while I agree that the welfare state needs some resolution, I think that Europeans seem to be quite happy with the high taxes and relatively high unemployment rates that they have.  They generally don't run deficits and part of the reason for that is that they don't seem to mind high taxes, there is nothing similar to the attitude towards taxes there is in the US.  So my guess is that Europe will probably be okay, but it will certainly be rather different from North America (as it is even today).
 
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Offline Father Peter

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2004, 02:26:57 PM »
People will also work longer in the future since they are living longer and remaining relatively healthy longer.

I don't expect to retire at 65 unless I strike it rich.

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Offline theodore

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2004, 03:56:36 PM »

"Also, were the Muslim world to modernize, the attraction of moving to Europe would diminish."

BINGO.  This is also the key to solving the Al Qaida problem.  Bring prosperity and modernity to the middle east and liberal democracy will follow, and the immigration issue will diminish.  Not going to happen through invasion, however, you need the prosperity first before you have a stable democracy.

I don't believe that modernity will solve the Al Qaeda problem.  Saudi Arabia, the main source of 9/11 hijackers is quite modern, and the perpetrators lived comfortable lifestyles with all of the modern conveniences.

Offline Nacho

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2004, 12:50:29 AM »
Quote
More likely is that Western Europe will continue to be relatively prosperous thanks to the EU and the expansion of the EU to include Eastern Europe, which will become a protected market for Western European goods, as well as a protected place for supplying cheap resources and labor to Western European companies.  Corporate tax revenues in Western Europe should increase as a result.  In general, while I agree that the welfare state needs some resolution, I think that Europeans seem to be quite happy with the high taxes and relatively high unemployment rates that they have.  They generally don't run deficits and part of the reason for that is that they don't seem to mind high taxes, there is nothing similar to the attitude towards taxes there is in the US.  So my guess is that Europe will probably be okay, but it will certainly be rather different from North America (as it is even today).

I guess I'm much more pessimistic than you are. The X factor here for the survival of Europe is continued study immigration. If they fall short on this, the system will collapse because of a lack of work force & a lack of taxation monies collected by the government. I also don't see them prospering because they are betraying thier Lord & Savior to live a more lavish self gratifying lifestyle. This betrayal is seen by the empty churches across western europe, thier acceptance of secularism in all spheres of society, and thier "culture of death" mentality when it comes to such things as contraceptives and having children.  

Quote
I don't believe that modernity will solve the Al Qaeda problem.  Saudi Arabia, the main source of 9/11 hijackers is quite modern, and the perpetrators lived comfortable lifestyles with all of the modern conveniences.

I agree. Muslims have already started to cause some  problems in Europe. Jews are moving out of France because of the continued threats of violence against them in that region. Take a look at what just happened in Spain for another example.  I know that it's not all of them, but a good minority of them is all that is needed to cause much havoc. They use our "western" freedoms masterfully against us because we have set the standards so high when it comes to such things as "civil rights."
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity

Offline jac109

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2004, 01:06:34 AM »
I guess I'm much more pessimistic than you are. The X factor here for the survival of Europe is continued study immigration. If they fall short on this, the system will collapse because of a lack of work force & a lack of taxation monies collected by the government. I also don't see them prospering because they are betraying thier Lord & Savior to live a more lavish self gratifying lifestyle. This betrayal is seen by the empty churches across western europe, thier acceptance of secularism in all spheres of society, and thier "culture of death" mentality when it comes to such things as contraceptives and having children.

This is something I wish Orthodoxy would put some extra effort into. The birthrate among Christians simply needs to increase. I even read that the Pope recently gave a speech on this issue, but I haven't heard much out of the leaders of Orthodoxy.

If Europe goes Muslim, this will be no good, since we might recall that of all the conflicts occurring around the world, many, if not most, involve Muslims fighting with someone, either Jews, Christians, Hindus, or secularists.


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Offline Nacho

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2004, 01:20:16 AM »
Quote
If Europe goes Muslim, this will be no good, since we might recall that of all the conflicts occurring around the world, many, if not most, involve Muslims fighting with someone, either Jews, Christians, Hindus, or secularists.

I think that out of the 21 conflicts around the world, 19 are caused by muslim agression on thier neighbors. The big lie in the media right now is that somehow us "westerners" are at fault for this agression against us. Well, all I have to say to that is go ask the peaceful hindu's if they think that Islam is a religion of peace. They have been dealing with muslim agression for the last one thousand years, which has nothing to do with the west.
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Offline Brigid of Kildare

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2004, 05:08:04 AM »
Nacho,

As a European I would be concerned about the growth of Islam here, but I found the tone of the article just a little hysterical and I agree with the more balanced view of Brendan. For example, Pipes says

"Some 5% of the E.U., or nearly 20 million persons, presently identify themselves as Muslims; should current trends continue, that number will reach 10% by 2020. If non-Muslims flee the new Islamic order, as seems likely, the continent could be majority-Muslim within decades".

He seems to make a huge jump in the last sentence saying that we will all be forced to take ship for Amerikay because 10% of the population will start pushing us around. I'm not aware that an Islamic order is actually being imposed.

He says that 5% of the European population is currently Muslim, what proportion of the North American continent is Muslim? Are they imposing an Islamic order on you?

We used to be told that the USA would eventually be Hispanic rather than Anglo, have those predictions come true?

I think we have to be very careful with this sort of thing, Pipes' article makes too many sweeping statements and generalizations, although as a Christian European I am concerned about the growth of Islam. The Russian Orthodox Church has a few articles you might be interested in on its EU website.

"From Islam in Europe to European Islam"

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/8/2.aspx

"Islam is the Second Largest Religion in France"

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/8/3.aspx

and "Islam in Italy"

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/8/4.aspx

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Offline Brendan03

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2004, 08:06:41 AM »
I don't believe that modernity will solve the Al Qaeda problem.  Saudi Arabia, the main source of 9/11 hijackers is quite modern, and the perpetrators lived comfortable lifestyles with all of the modern conveniences.  

Where did I say 'modernity' would solve the problem?  What I said was that if the Middle East develops a large, prosperous Middle Class that will go a long way to solving the problem in terms of the broader support for these radical groups.  It's true that many of the Jihadists themselves seem to come from comfortable backgrounds, but the real reason for the radicalism is the sense that the Middle East is put down by the West.  The cure for that is to bring the Middle East up to standards .. not in terms of 'modernity' and 'conveniences', but in terms of developing a large, prosperous middle class ... those are the conditions that promote stability and democracy, and under those circumstances the man in the street will not be supporting the jihadists.

Brendan
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Offline Brendan03

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2004, 08:12:49 AM »
I guess I'm much more pessimistic than you are. The X factor here for the survival of Europe is continued study immigration. If they fall short on this, the system will collapse because of a lack of work force & a lack of taxation monies collected by the government. I also don't see them prospering because they are betraying thier Lord & Savior to live a more lavish self gratifying lifestyle. This betrayal is seen by the empty churches across western europe, thier acceptance of secularism in all spheres of society, and thier "culture of death" mentality when it comes to such things as contraceptives and having children.  

Honestly I think this is a dangerous way of looking at things, as if the things that happen in the world, the trends of the rise and fall of nations and such, are related to divine favor.  I thought that notion disappeared in the middle ages.   :-[

It is regrettable that Europe has turned largely away from its religious roots, but I honestly don't see this impacting European stability or prosperity one bit in the years ahead.  China, an areligious country, is now on the rise.  The fact that Japan never christianized to any significant degree has not impeded them ... seems like the divine favor is smiling on East Asia right now, so should we all become Buddhists (even though the folks there largely are Buddhist in name only)?

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Offline Nacho

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2004, 01:20:05 PM »
Quote
It is regrettable that Europe has turned largely away from its religious roots, but I honestly don't see this impacting European stability or prosperity one bit in the years ahead.  China, an areligious country, is now on the rise.  The fact that Japan never christianized to any significant degree has not impeded them ... seems like the divine favor is smiling on East Asia right now, so should we all become Buddhists (even though the folks there largely are Buddhist in name only)?

The Asian countries have never been christian though. Europe has been christian for thousands of years & they are betraying God by turning from him. Most of the asian far east has not had the chance to hear the gospel yet. Europe has no excuse because they have had the knowledge of thier christian faith & heritage, but have chosen to reject it for a gospel of "moral relativism."


Quote
Where did I say 'modernity' would solve the problem?  What I said was that if the Middle East develops a large, prosperous Middle Class that will go a long way to solving the problem in terms of the broader support for these radical groups.  It's true that many of the Jihadists themselves seem to come from comfortable backgrounds, but the real reason for the radicalism is the sense that the Middle East is put down by the West.  The cure for that is to bring the Middle East up to standards .. not in terms of 'modernity' and 'conveniences', but in terms of developing a large, prosperous middle class ... those are the conditions that promote stability and democracy, and under those circumstances the man in the street will not be supporting the jihadists.


I agree with what you are saying here & makes alot of sense. I would say though the real problem why the islamic world hates the west is exactly the same reasons why faithful christians are becoming increasingly disenfranchised with "western culture." I would put all the blame on Hollywood, the left, & the Howard Sterns of the west who are importing thier filth to islamic countries that find it disgusting & deplorable. We aren't the "great satan" because some of us beleive in jesus. They beleive we are because the images they see from the west are everything they despise. They don't want thier daughters to look like and act like harlets and they don't want their sons dressing like drugged out thugs with pants hanging off them. They also don't want thier airwaves bombarded with pornographic images & they don't want it sold on street corners.

So what it comes down to is a battle being fought on many fronts. We have an enemy within that is trying to turn us into a modernist brothel & at the same time they are upsetting many in very traditional islamic countries that don't want this stuff in thier countries. I condemn the islamo facist for their barbaric actions, but on the other hand can understand where they are coming from to rid thier countries from the filth coming from the west.
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity

Offline jac109

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2004, 01:58:20 PM »
I would say though the real problem why the islamic world hates the west is exactly the same reasons why faithful christians are becoming increasingly disenfranchised with "western culture." I would put all the blame on Hollywood, the left, & the Howard Sterns of the west who are importing thier filth to islamic countries that find it disgusting & deplorable. We aren't the "great satan" because some of us beleive in jesus. They beleive we are because the images they see from the west are everything they despise. They don't want thier daughters to look like and act like haTherlets and they don't want their sons dressing like drugged out thugs with pants hanging off them. They also don't want thier airwaves bombarded with pornographic images & they don't want it sold on street corners.

There's two other reasons they hate us:

1. The presence of US troops in various Muslim countries.

2. Our support of Israel.

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Offline gregory2

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2004, 09:27:55 PM »
Muslims don't hate us because we're in Islamic countries.  They would hate us just the same if we weren't there.  The difference is when we're there, it's a lot easier for them to express their hatred in terms of violence toward us.

The recent beheading of an American in Iraq has made me more scared of Muslim spread than ever before.  Christian fundamentalists may be irritate some, but Muslim fundamentalists aggressively kill people.  Look at 9/11, look at the 4 American workers whose mutilated and burned bodies were hung from the rafters in Iraq, go on the web and look at the photos or video of the beheading of Nick Berg.  

It's disgusting.  Why the hell do we keep appeasing them?  Appeasement allowed Hitler to kill millions of people.  Let's have tactical weapons and a full assault.  As an American, I sure as hell don't feel like my country is protecting me.  I feel like it's trying to "be nice," while someday that could be my head the local Muslim invader is chopping off.
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Offline gregory2

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2004, 09:32:40 PM »
Should America stop supporting Israel?  I say no way.  There are only really two sides to the coin, you are either on Israel's side or the Muslims's side, and there's no way I would ever support the crazy Muslims.  The country of Israel is the best thing that happened to the Middle East in the 20th century.  It's the only place in the Middle East I'd even consider going.  But a lot of Muslims are too busy blowing themselves up and killing other humans to realize this, to realize that they could possibly learn something from other people.
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Offline Jennifer

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2004, 09:45:03 PM »
Should America stop supporting Israel?  I say no way.  There are only really two sides to the coin, you are either on Israel's side or the Muslims's side, and there's no way I would ever support the crazy Muslims.  The country of Israel is the best thing that happened to the Middle East in the 20th century.  It's the only place in the Middle East I'd even consider going.  But a lot of Muslims are too busy blowing themselves up and killing other humans to realize this, to realize that they could possibly learn something from other people.

I used to feel this way.  I used to be an ardent zionist.  I have a natural affinity for Jews which translated into support for Isreal.  But I've rethought my position.  

I think the phrase "crazy Muslims" is offensive.  It borders on bigotry which I hope is against the rules on this forum.  

Your clam that one must be either pro-Isreal or pro-Muslim is patently absurd.  What of the Arab Christians who oppose Israel?  

As for your claim that Israel is the best thing that ever happened to the middle east, I think there is ample evidence that the middle east is worse off than it was before the founding of the state of Israel.  Your statement also betrays a kind of 'jingoism.'  Was South Africa the "best thing" that ever happened to Africa?  Are we the "best thing" that ever happened to North America?  Saying yes to either of those questions indicates a belief that western people are superior.  BTW, you can't claim that western = Christianity which is superior in this case because of the many Arab Christians in the Middle East.  

I suggest you search the archives for posts by a Arab Christian.  I forget his name but I'm sure someone will remember who he was.

Offline jac109

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2004, 10:38:09 PM »
I used to feel this way.  I used to be an ardent zionist.  I have a natural affinity for Jews which translated into support for Isreal.  But I've rethought my position.

Why would a Christian have a "natural affinity for Jews?" That seems very contradictory.


 

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Offline jac109

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2004, 10:43:18 PM »
Muslims don't hate us because we're in Islamic countries.  They would hate us just the same if we weren't there.  The difference is when we're there, it's a lot easier for them to express their hatred in terms of violence toward us.

I'm just reiterating what they say. One of the main reasons given by Osama for hostility against America was US military presence in Saudi Arabia.

I don't buy into the idea that the Muslims just hate us for no reason, or, as Bushy likes to say, they hate "our freedom." That's nonsense. They hate us for rational reasons.
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Offline Jennifer

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2004, 10:46:42 PM »
Why would a Christian have a "natural affinity for Jews?" That seems very contradictory.

I anticipated this kind of response from you.  It's too bad that you're living 'down' to my expectations.  

BTW, as a Christian, I love Jesus, the Virgin Mary and good St. Joseph.  I have a "natural affinity" for the the Apostles and the prophets.  In fact, I don't see how a Christian could have anything but a "natural affinity for Jews."

Offline gregory2

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2004, 11:16:57 PM »
I used to feel this way.  I used to be an ardent zionist.  I have a natural affinity for Jews which translated into support for Isreal.  But I've rethought my position.  

I think the phrase "crazy Muslims" is offensive.  It borders on bigotry which I hope is against the rules on this forum.  

Your clam that one must be either pro-Isreal or pro-Muslim is patently absurd.  What of the Arab Christians who oppose Israel?  

As for your claim that Israel is the best thing that ever happened to the middle east, I think there is ample evidence that the middle east is worse off than it was before the founding of the state of Israel.  Your statement also betrays a kind of 'jingoism.'  Was South Africa the "best thing" that ever happened to Africa?  Are we the "best thing" that ever happened to North America?  Saying yes to either of those questions indicates a belief that western people are superior.  BTW, you can't claim that western = Christianity which is superior in this case because of the many Arab Christians in the Middle East.  

I suggest you search the archives for posts by a Arab Christian.  I forget his name but I'm sure someone will remember who he was.  

I don't think that one has to be a zionist to support the existence of Israel.  Practially speaking, the country has been in existence since 1948.  What would happen to the Jews if the state of Israel ceased to exist? Do you think the neighboring Muslim countries would allow the Jews to live under them peacefully?  Realistically, in 2004, that just doesn't seem plausible.  Should the millions of Jews living there just pick up and move?

But more importantly, if the Jews left Israel and the land was returned to the Muslim neighbors, would some Muslims hate the Jews or Americans less?  No!  Some Muslims hate us just because we exist.  It matters not what we do or where we are.

Arab Christians may oppose the state of Israel, but you don't hear of them murdering their Jewish neighbors.  

Some Americans do crazy things to earn the label "crazy Americans."  When some Muslims chop off people's heads in the name of God, and praise each other for killing Jews and Americans in the name of God, then I'll call them "crazy Muslims."  It's not "jingoism" at all -- it's called protection.  These people have no qualms about killing us -- indeed, they think that they are doing God's work!  Just think what they'll do in the future once they realize that we really won't do much about it!  They already killed 3,000 Americans in the World Trade Center attacks, and we were very, very slow about fighting back.  Defending one's homeland simply is not jingoism.

If Anastasios wants to ban me for saying this, then so be it.
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Offline Nacho

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2004, 11:20:09 PM »
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The recent beheading of an American in Iraq has made me more scared of Muslim spread than ever before.  Christian fundamentalists may be irritate some, but Muslim fundamentalists aggressively kill people.  Look at 9/11, look at the 4 American workers whose mutilated and burned bodies were hung from the rafters in Iraq, go on the web and look at the photos or video of the beheading of Nick Berg.
It's disgusting.  Why the hell do we keep appeasing them?  Appeasement allowed Hitler to kill millions of people.  Let's have tactical weapons and a full assault.  As an American, I sure as hell don't feel like my country is protecting me.  I feel like it's trying to "be nice," while someday that could be my head the local Muslim invader is chopping off.

My friend, let me tell you what it comes down to. What it comes down to is that Hitlerism is alive & well in our day & time. The new nazi's happen to wear head scarfs & advocate murder by hiding behind thier religion. Before any of you knee jerk people acuse me of anything, let me also say that I know that this is advocated by less than 5% of muslims worldwide. That is about 50 million muslims out of the 1 billion. 50 million radicals is quite a huge number of people that can cause alot of problems for all of us.

As stated before, 19 out of 21 conflicts around the world are caused by muslim agression on thier neighbors. The big lie in the media is that somehow it's all Israels fault & the west. We'll sorry, but go tell that to the Hindu's that have had to put up with muslim agression the last 1000 years. Tell that too the budhist that have had some of thier holy shrines blown up by the practitioners of the religion of peace that they are doing that because the west is to blame.

I'm one also sick of the "selective" outrage I have seen lately. I'm sorry, but the prisoners who were abused in the prisons weren't there because they got speeding tickets. They were the worst of the worst & many of them had innocent american blood on thier hands. The focus should be on the true atrocities such as people being burned alive & hung from bridges & people being beheaded. I find what the soldiers did to those prisoners outrageous to say the least, but come on, lets put things in perspective here.


 
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Should America stop supporting Israel?  I say no way.  There are only really two sides to the coin, you are either on Israel's side or the Muslims's side, and there's no way I would ever support the crazy Muslims.  The country of Israel is the best thing that happened to the Middle East in the 20th century.  It's the only place in the Middle East I'd even consider going.  But a lot of Muslims are too busy blowing themselves up and killing other humans to realize this, to realize that they could possibly learn something from other people.

I agree for the most part. Until the wider muslim community takes a stand against the radicals in thier own community, the "civilized" world will turn a deaf ear. When they decide to grow up & take a stand, than maybe they can all join the family of man.


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I think the phrase "crazy Muslims" is offensive.  It borders on bigotry which I hope is against the rules on this forum.  

I don't find it offensive because he's not obviously refering to everyone that is muslim but the radicals that kill in the name of Allah. You should stop taking things out of context.

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I don't buy into the idea that the Muslims just hate us for no reason, or, as Bushy likes to say, they hate "our freedom." That's nonsense. They hate us for rational reasons.

I agree with you. I'm tired of the one lines by our leaders also.

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I anticipated this kind of response from you.  It's too bad that you're living 'down' to my expectations.  

Wow, more name calling. Hey Jenn, I thought you would be "above" that.  ;)
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Offline jac109

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2004, 11:21:41 PM »
I anticipated this kind of response from you.  It's too bad that you're living 'down' to my expectations.  

Yeah, yeah, whatever. Can't you just respond without prefacing every posting with an insult?

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BTW, as a Christian, I love Jesus, the Virgin Mary and good St. Joseph.  I have a "natural affinity" for the the Apostles and the prophets.  In fact, I don't see how a Christian could have anything but a "natural affinity for Jews."  

The Jews of today are the spiritual descendants of the Pharisees - you remember, the folks who murdered the prophets and Jesus Christ.

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Offline gregory2

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2004, 11:23:38 PM »
I'm just reiterating what they say. One of the main reasons given by Osama for hostility against America was US military presence in Saudi Arabia.

I don't buy into the idea that the Muslims just hate us for no reason, or, as Bushy likes to say, they hate "our freedom." That's nonsense. They hate us for rational reasons.

How can they hate us for "rational" reasons? The fundamentalist element has proven that they are not rational!  Steering 2 airplanes into the World Trade Center is not rational.  Suicide bombing is not rational.  Chopping of the head of a Jewish American is not rational.   Going back in history, the sack of Byzantium was not rational.  The Islamic expansion by the sword during the centuries after Mohammed was not rational.  The suppression of Greek culture for 400 years was not rational.  Islamic fundamentalists just don't have a good track record.  As my psychiatrist friends say, you can't reason with crazy people!
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Offline Jennifer

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2004, 11:40:17 PM »
I don't think that one has to be a zionist to support the existence of Israel.  Practially speaking, the country has been in existence since 1948.  What would happen to the Jews if the state of Israel ceased to exist? Do you think the neighboring Muslim countries would allow the Jews to live under them peacefully?  Realistically, in 2004, that just doesn't seem plausible.  Should the millions of Jews living there just pick up and move?

I'm no longer a zionist but I don't call for dissolving the state of Israel.  

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But more importantly, if the Jews left Israel and the land was returned to the Muslim neighbors, would some Muslims hate the Jews or Americans less?  No!  Some Muslims hate us just because we exist.  It matters not what we do or where we are.

What matters is what's right not popular opinion.  And the founding of the State of Israel is not morally defensible.  The Palestinians were unlawfully displaced from their homes.  

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Arab Christians may oppose the state of Israel, but you don't hear of them murdering their Jewish neighbors.  

The vast majority of Arab Muslims don't "murder" their Jewish "neighbors" either.  What's relevant to the discussion however (given your claim that one is either pro-Israel or pro-Muslim) is that Arab Christians do not support the State of Israel and they are not "pro-Muslim."  

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Some Americans do crazy things to earn the label "crazy Americans."  When some Muslims chop off people's heads in the name of God, and praise each other for killing Jews and Americans in the name of God, then I'll call them "crazy Muslims."

"Americans" is not a religious or ethnic category so saying "crazy Americans" isn't as offensive.  It is particularly offensive in polite society to call an entire ethnic or religioius group "crazy."  

I should be clarified that the majority of Muslims do not "chop off people's heads in the name of God."  It's bigotry to attribute a negative act of a few to every member of a religious or ethnic group.  

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It's not "jingoism" at all -- it's called protection.  These people have no qualms about killing us -- indeed, they think that they are doing God's work!  Just think what they'll do in the future once they realize that we really won't do much about it!  They already killed 3,000 Americans in the World Trade Center attacks, and we were very, very slow about fighting back.  Defending one's homeland simply is not jingoism.

Please clarify your statement that the founding of Israel was the best thing that ever happened to the Middle East.  It smacks of jingoism because it implies that a foreign (and western) 'invasion' (and make no bones about it, it was an 'invasion') was the "best thing" that happens to the conquered peoples.  


Offline jac109

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2004, 11:40:48 PM »
How can they hate us for "rational" reasons? The fundamentalist element has proven that they are not rational!

The main main reasons usually given for fighting us are:

1. Opposition to decadent American pop cultural influence in Muslim countries.
2. American support for the Zionist state.
3. American military presence in Muslim countries.

Now you can say what you want about any of those three points, but they are rational complaints.


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Steering 2 airplanes into the World Trade Center is not rational.  Suicide bombing is not rational.

They don't have smart bombs and cruise missles.

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The Islamic expansion by the sword during the centuries after Mohammed was not rational.  The suppression of Greek culture for 400 years was not rational.  Islamic fundamentalists just don't have a good track record.  As my psychiatrist friends say, you can't reason with crazy people!

Irrational to you, maybe, but not to me. That certainly doesn't mean I support them. Just the opposite. In fact, if I had my way, all Muslims would leave America. But labeling them as "irrational" or "crazy" doesn't really help in understanding the problem.

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Offline Jennifer

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2004, 11:44:44 PM »
Wow, more name calling. Hey Jenn, I thought you would be "above" that.  ;)

I had a feeling Jac had anti-semitic tendencies.  He lived "down to my expectations" by suggesting that Christians cannot like Jews.  

I have my problems with you, Nacho, but I don't think you're an anti-semite.  I suspect that because you are a neocon that you are sympathic to Jewish interests.  I would think that you would never suggest that Christians can have a "natural affinity" for Jews.

Offline jac109

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2004, 11:45:10 PM »
Arab Christians may oppose the state of Israel, but you don't hear of them murdering their Jewish neighbors.  

But that doesn't mean Israel isn't murdering Arab Christians.

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Offline jac109

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2004, 11:57:54 PM »
I had a feeling Jac had anti-semitic tendencies.  He lived "down to my expectations" by suggesting that Christians cannot like Jews.

See, you are confused because you jump to too many conclusions. The issue is not whether I like Jews. There are Jews whom I like personally. But that doesn't stop me from recognizing the inherent incompatibility between Judaism and Christianity. I'm not naive enough to think that pious Jews have Christianity's best interests at heart. In fact, if they abide by Rambam's authority, they will always oppose Christianity. As I recall, Rambam said that every Jew has a mitzva ( religious duty ) to destroy Jewish traitors, Karoites, and Christians. Karoites, FYI, are a very tiny sect of Jews who reject the authority of the Talmud and adhere strictly to the Old Testament.  
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Offline Jennifer

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2004, 12:03:45 AM »
You appear to have anti-semitic tendencies because you stated that you don't think it's appropriate for a Christian to have Jewish friends.  

I don't know if you're an anti-semite but you sound like an anti-semite.

Offline Anastasios

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Re:The Future "Muslim" Europe
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2004, 12:16:43 AM »
I think you all got a chance to say what you think, so I am closing this thread.  I would like to ask gregory2 to private message me and explain why he thinks I would single him out for banning, though, because that seemed to come out of nowhere.

I have some strong personal opinions about this thread but since I am closing it I am not going to air my views.  I would like to reiterate to all participants that being charitable is an expected value here, not just a courtesy.  I'm not banning or warning anyone today but we might start doing so if this happens again. Polite discussion is more valuable than name-calling.

The one thing I will say is that I was once engaged to an Indian Muslim and her family was not anything like what some are claiming Muslims are like. In fact, I felt much safer with Muslims in India.

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Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism and may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.