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Author Topic: Does Love win, in the end? Rob Bell and the travails of Protestantism  (Read 4039 times) Average Rating: 0
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celticfan1888
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« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2011, 07:18:15 PM »

Saying that Jesus suffered the wrath of God at all sounds to be heretical.
For God was so P.O.d at that world, that He had His only begotten Son tortured to death, and since then He feels so much better.
another reason i'm not a christian

Well thats not a good reason not to be christian, as God doesnt get PO'd

More importantly, please explain footy = life

Are we talking association football? Some varient of "rugby"? Or the only legitimate referent: Australian Rules?

LOL Australian Rules, thats the only real footy in my world. Wink

Awesome. Did you play? I got picked up by a pretty decent NA rec team (which means crap) to help fill out their line-up. Excellent sport. Knew nothing about the sport at the time. Was given dozens of video tapes and five times as many concussions before I even began to understand the rules.

How does the saying go:

Soccer, a game played gentlemen watched by hooligans. Footy, a game played by hooligans watched by gentlemen.





I currently play for a club called the Baton Rouge Tigers in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, we play in the United States Australian Football League. I'm only 20, so I have time to grow in the sport. Wink

Here's our website: http://batonrougetigers.com/

Also, here's the website for the USAFL to find a team near you: http://www.usafl.com/

The saying goes something to that manner, lol.

I played in the same league for a decent team over a decade ago. Was on a top notch soccer team. One of my team mates was playing professional arena football, he never played the sport when trying out, just a natural athlete. A guy came up to us after the game and asked if we ever heard of Australian rules football. Neither of us had and we joined them the next practice.

We were both rather big for soccer players at the time. I was 6' and 195#, but to really stand up to the beating I had to take in footy, I had to keep up around 210. I didn't have the skills to stay healthy any lighter.

Great sport. Didn't stay with it long. Hated maintaining that weight (and having to drop weight for other sport) and we had to spend a lot of time traveling and getting money to travel. And I left the States after the second year.

Great fun to play, but I don't care to watch it much.

Wish I had run into it when I was 20. Was a touch older and bit more beat up when I played around in the sport.

Best of luck. No sport came close to the level of conditioning required save maybe wrestling.

Yeah, I played American Football, Soccer, Rugby Union, and Wrestling in High School so it translated over to Footy. I still play rugby and soccer, but footy is my #1. I just started playing footy in July 2010. Im a big guy as well, Im about 5'10" 235 lbs (even though I look like I only weigh 180-190 lbs), I like to do power lifting, so Im the strongest guy on my team, Im the strongest out of anyone I ever played against. Physicality is a big part of my game, but I pride myself in being a really good kicker as well. I play all over the field, but mostly Full-Back, Back-Pocket, and Forward. I LOVE playing defense. Im getting a tryout with the National Team over the summer and I really hope one day to play professionally in the AFL. *Fingers Crossed*
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« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2011, 07:51:43 PM »

Yeah, I played American Football, Soccer, Rugby Union, and Wrestling in High School so it translated over to Footy. I still play rugby and soccer, but footy is my #1. I just started playing footy in July 2010. Im a big guy as well, Im about 5'10" 235 lbs (even though I look like I only weigh 180-190 lbs), I like to do power lifting, so Im the strongest guy on my team, Im the strongest out of anyone I ever played against. Physicality is a big part of my game, but I pride myself in being a really good kicker as well. I play all over the field, but mostly Full-Back, Back-Pocket, and Forward. I LOVE playing defense. Im getting a tryout with the National Team over the summer and I really hope one day to play professionally in the AFL. *Fingers Crossed*

Finally another athlete here. That's some sorta physique for footy. Was goalie in soccer, but could play half back against a team we wanted to punish offensively, so I played mostly defense in footy. In every sport, I've always favored defense, even in wrestling, much to my coaches' chagrin. Keeping my weight up around 215 or so without PEDs for footy was a pain.

That's awesome about going professional. Best of luck. Keeping 5'10" @ 235 with all the cardio base for footy will definitely get tougher as you get a bit older, but maybe some of the mass will be able to go once you develop more skills. But much respect for the discipline to keep such a physique.

Word to the wise from someone who has been knocked around a lot. Keep that noggin a safe as possible. Nowadays, I think a strong wind could concuss me.

Last sport I competed in, went the opposite end of the spectrum, rowing lightweight: 165. 
 

 
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« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2011, 11:02:35 PM »

It seems that deusveritasest is talking about ultimate reconciliation; while people will go to Hell, it is in Hell that they will work out their salvation. Such a view, in my opinion, is not heretical as it still requires the person to make a decision and to endure a process.

At the same time, such a view is problematic. For one, it assumes that people in Hell suddenly "get it" or will eventually "get it." But look at the rich man in the parable Jesus told us. The very first thing he was concerned about was himself. He wasn't apologetic, he wasn't contrite, he wanted water and he wanted that poor slob Lazarus to bring it to him. Then he wanted all of Heaven to bow down to his wishes and have Lazarus once again serve his desires by going to preach to the rich man's family.

What else is interesting in that passage is that Jesus mentions a great chasm between Heaven and Hell, one that cannot be crossed.

It would seem that Scripture does teach two things:

1) Those who are in Hell remain defiant
2) At the Great Judgment, even then some will remain defiant.

Will some people pass from Hell to Heaven at the Great Judgment, having served their time and learned? I don't know. Will we burn in Hell for eternity without Christ, even if we recognize our mistake? I don't know. The Scriptures say quite a bit about Hell without saying much; I think that is by design.
Are there any good Orthodox commentaries on the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus by those who believe that Apokatastasis will or may happen?
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As for Rob Bell's beliefs proper, let me give you a fair warning about this from someone who is currently involved in this aspect of Protestantism (not as an emergent, but friends with quite a few):

I am a friend with the person who has been working with Bell for a few years now. He's spoken at his church a few times. What my friend believes and what many Emergents (especially the leadership) are starting to believe is that salvation is for every human...because there is no afterlife. For some it's an outright denial of an afterlife, for others it's extreme skepticism with them concluding that it ultimately doesn't matter.

For my friend in particular, in public he won't deny the resurrection, but instead skirts around it (after all, he'd out himself and wouldn't sell as many books), but in private he denies the resurrection of us, of Jesus, and denies what he calls the "metaphysical God." In other words, God only exists in your actions. This same friend has been a major influence on Bell the last few years.

Now, I don't think Bell will go this far in his book (my friend hasn't told me), but do keep in mind that this is the direction it's all heading (maybe not for Bell...yet). It's heading to a denial of our resurrection along with an afterlife at all; you die and that's it.
Undecided Lord, have mercy.
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« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2011, 11:57:07 PM »

Are there any good Orthodox commentaries on the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus by those who believe that Apokatastasis will or may happen?
One has to be careful with the terminology here. "Apokatastasis" specifically refers to the process of returning to the state from which one originated, or the restoration to one's original condition.

So defined, apokatastasis is not Orthodox, and not Christian, because mankind's original condition was not theosis.

Apokatastasis is not to be equated with the idea that all my be saved, or "potential universalism". Potential universalism is not a return to our original condition. Potential universalism is entering into the new, grace-given condition of theosis, and theosis was not mankind's original condition.

Apokatastasis can be false, while potential universalism being true. The Church has condemned apokatastasis, while not condemning potential universalism.

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« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2011, 11:45:28 AM »

Are there any good Orthodox commentaries on the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus by those who believe that Apokatastasis will or may happen?
One has to be careful with the terminology here. "Apokatastasis" specifically refers to the process of returning to the state from which one originated, or the restoration to one's original condition.

So defined, apokatastasis is not Orthodox, and not Christian, because mankind's original condition was not theosis.

Apokatastasis is not to be equated with the idea that all my be saved, or "potential universalism". Potential universalism is not a return to our original condition. Potential universalism is entering into the new, grace-given condition of theosis, and theosis was not mankind's original condition.

Apokatastasis can be false, while potential universalism being true. The Church has condemned apokatastasis, while not condemning potential universalism.


Thanks for the clarification. So are there any good Orthodox potential universalist commentaries on the parable of the rich man and Lazarus?
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« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2011, 02:26:50 PM »

I would've walked out too...

...and walked into Joel Osteen's church, just kidding. Wink

Universalism doesn't make sense to me. If we are all saved, then why waste our time trying to imitate Christ?

Lets get it straight. God saves us.  We do not save ourselves,  through any of our own efforts.  We did not decide to be saved, we do not continue in the decision.  It always was and is God's decision.

That is the Orthodox teaching on Sacramentality, or the Divine Mysteries.  For the Pentecostals, baptism is a conscious decision and affirmation a person makes to become saved.  In Orthodox, Baptism is a Divine Mystery which in God's own particular Time is revealed to a person, and in a quite literal sense saves the person.  A person can not save themselves from falling of a cliff or drowning can they? Neither can we save ourselves, when we realize we are in the dangerous free fall of irreverent life perhaps we may cry out and ask to be saved, but it ALWAYS is GOD ALONE who does the saving.

So in the depth of Orthodoxy, we do believe in Universalism, in the sense that we are invited to join the One, Holy, Universal, Apostolic Church of our Lord Jesus Christ.  There are not distinctions, it is a Universal Church.  We are not saved because of our conscious decisions to be a part of this Church, actually its sort of the opposite.  We are saved because God invites into His Church, and carries us through in it every new day of our lives.  The Apostolic fathers may do the planting and the watering, but God causes the increase!

So we should not think it anything from ourselves.  ANYONE can be invited by God to the Church.  We can not be so naive as to suppose we know how that works, or to limit our unlimited God.  Even the Apostle Paul mention baptisms and prayers being offered to the Dead.  If those were offered for the dead, how are we to say that is not an example of Universalism even in a Pentecostal sense? Many of the Fathers have agreed as was mentioned before.

Therefore I think the simplest way for us Christians to think about this is to say we should only focus on ourselves.  We shouldn't in any way, shape, or form think about the sins of others or the salvation of others aside from praying that ALL receive it in God's Time and Mercy.  We should assume that God would do this, and have joy in the process.  From my upbringing, I have met so many Protestants whose religion was bitterly spiteful and vitriolic, who are way to concerned with the sins of others and the salvation of others, but rarely inflecting inwards which is precisely what God intends for us.  We can only find God inside ourselves first, and then we shall only be able to see Him in every one else, and sin will become illusory in the love of God. Orthodox is not a legalistic religion, God alone can save us from Hell, so our Orthodox lifestyle is not a means to an end being salvation, rather it is a process over a lifetime to learn to have a growing, individual, personally and affecting RELATIONSHIP with God because He alone can save us and not of we ourselves or any of our own efforts regardless of their sincerity.

 If we are following Orthodox in a legalistic way, in a tit-for-tat "I do say these prayers, go to the Liturgy, do these fasting days" to be "saved" or to avoid "hell" then we are only missing the point entirely Sad

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« Reply #51 on: July 13, 2011, 08:08:39 AM »

Rob Bell's extended interview on PBS 's Religion and Ethics Weekly.
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