Author Topic: As "denomination" is defined in English, each Orthodox jurisdiction is a denomination.  (Read 4629 times)

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Offline ialmisry

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I'm still trying to figure out what the point of this entire discussion is.

Well, the point back before this turned into a pissing contest about Anglican churches (which I suppose I'm a bit guilty of inciting) was that the distinction between "jurisdictions" and "denominations" is to a degree fictitious and is maintained out of a sense of Orthodox triumphalism. People would have preferred the person from Hellenic College to have used one word over the other but they weren't inaccurate in using the word.

What person from Hellenic College?
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Offline Keble

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Offline Shiny

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May I ask you an honest question Keble?

My condo complex is right next to an Episcopal church and they have a big banner that says "Meditation Evening, All are welcome!"..uhh since when did churches start bringing paganism into them? They do this every 2 weeks, so you get into some yoga formation?
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Offline Keble

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There is a long line of Catholic mystics who would dispute that meditation per se is unChristian, and most western analysis would consider repetitive prayer practices to be a kind of meditation. OTOH it is clear that at least some of the interest in meditation is inspired by far eastern religion.

Interestingly, I saw an article the other day to the effect that hatha yoga has nothing to do with Hinduism (though it does have some tenuous connection to Indian fakir magic) and is essentially a modern invention with no real religious content.

Offline ialmisry

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Maybe you saw something, and maybe you misremember it, but in any case, it isn't out there now. A supposed alteration to one of the defining (so to speak  ;) ) reference works of our time, and there's no trace of it now: you're just a guy on a forum making yet another outlandish claim, with nothing to back it up but your own word, and given your complete lack of any inclination to put some substance behind it, nobody should believe your claim. Really, they ought to believe that it's untrue.

I'm uninterested in your claims of Orthodox exceptionalism and your snide comeback about my church. Overlapping jurisdictions, when it comes to that, have been an aberration in Anglicanism for a matter of a couple of years, not decade after decade as has been the case in Orthodoxy. In that wise, you stand in a glass house, stone in hand.
I knew one day I'd come across something on the Soviets being allowed to change the definitions of the OED, and so I have:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3aFlAAAAIBAJ&sjid=uYwNAAAAIBAJ&pg=1152,3429441&dq=marxism+main+laws+of+development+of+nature+and+society&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1821&dat=19850409&id=zUstAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mp0FAAAAIBAJ&pg=3477,5210427
Quote
When is propaganda simply information and capitalism a system "based on the exploitation of man by man?"  Answer: When Soviet editors redefine words in two products by the guardians of the English language-the publishers of the Oxford English Dictionary....."I suppose those justifying what we've done here would say, 'well, we've aligned, at Russian request, these words to the usage of that country.'  I think that we should have said in the dictionary something to the effect that, 'in Marxist doctrine, Capitalism means such and such, or Socialism means such and such," and not done it quite so badly," said Richardson
Marxism, in "this edition...the OUP (Oxford University Press) sanctions...for sale only in the U.S.S.R." (so stating in English and Russian in each copy ""clearly marked 'special edition for the U.S.S.R.'"), means "teaching on the main laws of development of nature and society," opposed to the OED outside of the Soviet Union defining Marxism as pertaining to, or characteristic of...the doctrines of Karl Marx."
The date, April 9, 1985, matches how I recollected the report I read (no, it wasn't this one, but the facts are similar as I remembered them). It also explains the dearth of information on: it predates the net, and came very close to the fall of the Soviet Union, when such things were no longer in demand, one should think.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Maybe you saw something, and maybe you misremember it, but in any case, it isn't out there now. A supposed alteration to one of the defining (so to speak  ;) ) reference works of our time, and there's no trace of it now: you're just a guy on a forum making yet another outlandish claim, with nothing to back it up but your own word, and given your complete lack of any inclination to put some substance behind it, nobody should believe your claim. Really, they ought to believe that it's untrue.

I'm uninterested in your claims of Orthodox exceptionalism and your snide comeback about my church. Overlapping jurisdictions, when it comes to that, have been an aberration in Anglicanism for a matter of a couple of years, not decade after decade as has been the case in Orthodoxy. In that wise, you stand in a glass house, stone in hand.
I knew one day I'd come across something on the Soviets being allowed to change the definitions of the OED, and so I have:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3aFlAAAAIBAJ&sjid=uYwNAAAAIBAJ&pg=1152,3429441&dq=marxism+main+laws+of+development+of+nature+and+society&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1821&dat=19850409&id=zUstAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mp0FAAAAIBAJ&pg=3477,5210427
Quote
When is propaganda simply information and capitalism a system "based on the exploitation of man by man?"  Answer: When Soviet editors redefine words in two products by the guardians of the English language-the publishers of the Oxford English Dictionary....."I suppose those justifying what we've done here would say, 'well, we've aligned, at Russian request, these words to the usage of that country.'  I think that we should have said in the dictionary something to the effect that, 'in Marxist doctrine, Capitalism means such and such, or Socialism means such and such," and not done it quite so badly," said Richardson
Marxism, in "this edition...the OUP (Oxford University Press) sanctions...for sale only in the U.S.S.R." (so stating in English and Russian in each copy ""clearly marked 'special edition for the U.S.S.R.'"), means "teaching on the main laws of development of nature and society," opposed to the OED outside of the Soviet Union defining Marxism as pertaining to, or characteristic of...the doctrines of Karl Marx."
The date, April 9, 1985, matches how I recollected the report I read (no, it wasn't this one, but the facts are similar as I remembered them). It also explains the dearth of information on: it predates the net, and came very close to the fall of the Soviet Union, when such things were no longer in demand, one should think.
A nice little blurb on this redefinition for propaganda (and not in the sense of "simple information") purposes can be found now here:
Symposium on Lexicography XI: Proceedings of the Eleventh International Symposium on Lexiconography "Ideology in Dictionaries: Definitions of Political Terms" by Andrejs Veisbergs:
Quote
This affected also special editions of Western dictionaries published in the USSR. Many political entries in the Soviet edition of Homby's learner's dictionary (Oxford 1982) were rewritten.
edited by Henrik Gottlieb, Jens Erik Mogensen, Arne Zetterste
http://books.google.com/books?id=wDnr0pKRQvEC&pg=PA542&dq=Marxism+%22teaching+on+the+main+laws+of+development+of+nature+and+society%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=J9PIULHVG8Ga2AW5-oCwBQ&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Marxism%20%22teaching%20on%20the%20main%20laws%20of%20development%20of%20nature%20and%20society%22&f=false
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline sprtslvr1973

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As "denomination" is defined in English, each Orthodox jurisdiction is a denomination.

No.  Since the jurisdictions all hold the same beliefs, they are not denominations.

+ 1 (belatedly)
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Offline JamesR

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If Protestants can say that Christianity is not a religion but a "relationship! :)" then we Orthodox can say that Orthodoxy is predenominational.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.