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Author Topic: What happened to the Law?  (Read 4754 times) Average Rating: 0
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #90 on: March 14, 2011, 10:53:35 AM »

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If I follow your reasoning, I must conclude that the first verse in this chapter makes no sense because the Children of Israel did not keep sacrificing to Baal at the time of the Exodus.
I don't think I follow your reasoning to be perfectly honest. The first verse in chapter eleven can only apply to Messiah if it is used allegorically. I am not saying there is anything wrong with an allegorical method, but it shouldn't completely abuse the context of said verse(s).

This is the second time you are accusing me of dishonesty (Last time you said I was playing a game with you about the genealogies).

What is so dishonest about showing that Hosea 11:1 is not actually about the past community of the Children of Israel and their Exodus from Egypt under Moses' leadership?

Theophilos--I do not think that PFN is accusing you personally of being dishonest. As he said, he finds fault with your reasoning and perhaps he should have used another adjective more appropriate to a critique of logical argumentation.

PFN--May I ask you if you are approaching this topic as a non-Christian at this point? It seems to me that your views have evolved and even solidified to a point where it may be important for Theophilos and others to know where you are coming from.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 10:57:24 AM by Second Chance » Logged

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PoorFoolNicholas
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« Reply #91 on: March 14, 2011, 12:43:53 PM »

Firstly, I never intended to accuse you of dishonestly, if that came through in my posts, then please forgive me.

Now let's look at this:

Quote
Christians such as Origin and Lucian (third and fourth century C.E.) had an enormous impact on creating and shaping the Septuagint that missionaries use to advance their untenable arguments against Judaism.  In essence, the present Septuagint is largely a post-second century Christian translation of the Bible, used zealously by the church throughout the centuries as an indispensable apologetic instrument to defend and sustain Christological alterations of the Jewish scriptures.

The fact that the original Septuagint translated by rabbis more than 22 centuries ago was only of the Pentateuch and not of prophetic books of the Bible such as Isaiah is confirmed by countless sources including the ancient Letter of Aristeas, which is the earliest attestation to the existence of the Septuagint.  The Talmud also states this explicitly in Tractate Megillah (9a), and Josephus as well affirms that the Septuagint was a translation only of the Law of Moses in his preface to Antiquities of the Jews.1 Moreover, Jerome, a church father and Bible translator who could hardly be construed as friendly to Judaism, affirms Josephus' statement regarding the authorship of the Septuagint in his preface to The Book of Hebrew Questions.2  Likewise, the Anchor Bible Dictionary reports precisely this point in the opening sentence of its article on the Septuagint which states, "The word 'Septuagint,' (from Lat septuaginta = 70; hence the abbreviation LXX) derives from a story that 72 elders translated the Pentateuch into Greek; the term therefore applied originally only to those five books."

In fact, Dr.  F.F.  Bruce, the preeminent professor of Biblical exegesis, keenly points out that, strictly speaking, the Septuagint deals only with the Pentateuch and not the whole Old Testament.  Bruce writes, "The Jews might have gone on at a later time to authorize a standard text of the rest of the Septuagint, but . . . lost interest in the Septuagint altogether.  With but few exceptions, every manuscript of the Septuagint which has come down to our day was copied and preserved in Christian, not Jewish, circles."outreachjudaism.org
If this is true, and I await correction, then it seems that the verse in question, was never part of the Septuagint, because it was only the Torah that was originally translated into Greek. The parts of Isaiah seem to come from purely Christian translators, making it even more suspect.
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« Reply #92 on: March 14, 2011, 12:49:16 PM »

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PFN--May I ask you if you are approaching this topic as a non-Christian at this point? It seems to me that your views have evolved and even solidified to a point where it may be important for Theophilos and others to know where you are coming from.

To be honest I have no idea what I am right now. I am so thankful, for all of you that have replied with helpful bits of info along the way. I do not want to lose my faith in Christ and His Church. I ask that you are lenient with me, and I beg all of you, destroy all of the arguments that I bring to this discussion. I want to believe, and when everyone shows me the errors in my thoughts, which I am sure are many  Wink, this will only help solidify my faith in Christianity.
Again, a big thanks to all that have helped so far, and forgive me if I have offended you in any way.
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #93 on: March 14, 2011, 02:11:22 PM »

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PFN--May I ask you if you are approaching this topic as a non-Christian at this point? It seems to me that your views have evolved and even solidified to a point where it may be important for Theophilos and others to know where you are coming from.

To be honest I have no idea what I am right now. I am so thankful, for all of you that have replied with helpful bits of info along the way. I do not want to lose my faith in Christ and His Church. I ask that you are lenient with me, and I beg all of you, destroy all of the arguments that I bring to this discussion. I want to believe, and when everyone shows me the errors in my thoughts, which I am sure are many  Wink, this will only help solidify my faith in Christianity.
Again, a big thanks to all that have helped so far, and forgive me if I have offended you in any way.

Thank you for your honesty and sincerity and please forgive me for not realizing the intense internal struggle and pain that you have been experiencing. May the Lord bless your spiritual trek.

Regarding the substance of your questioning, I am not a Biblical scholar but I think we can safely say that a non-Christian will read the Holy Scriptures, particularly the Old Testament, differently than a Christian. The reason, acknowledged by Orthodox, heterodox and agnostic scholars alike, is the paradigm-shifting salvific story of Jesus the Christ, God and Man. Just read the Creed and see if the hair on your arms will not stand up at the awesomeness of it all.

It is impossible, as it was also impossible to the Apostles (especially to Saint Paul), to look to history, to the relationship between God and His chosen people (indeed the entire universe), to the Law if you please, without using the prism of the Cross and the Resurrection. So, you can have exegesis with or without that paradigm-shifting Gospel, but it becomes extremely difficult if one trues to have both approaches at the same time.
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« Reply #94 on: March 15, 2011, 04:14:09 AM »

Firstly, I never intended to accuse you of dishonestly, if that came through in my posts, then please forgive me.

Now let's look at this:

Quote
Christians such as Origin and Lucian (third and fourth century C.E.) had an enormous impact on creating and shaping the Septuagint that missionaries use to advance their untenable arguments against Judaism.  In essence, the present Septuagint is largely a post-second century Christian translation of the Bible, used zealously by the church throughout the centuries as an indispensable apologetic instrument to defend and sustain Christological alterations of the Jewish scriptures.

The fact that the original Septuagint translated by rabbis more than 22 centuries ago was only of the Pentateuch and not of prophetic books of the Bible such as Isaiah is confirmed by countless sources including the ancient Letter of Aristeas, which is the earliest attestation to the existence of the Septuagint.  The Talmud also states this explicitly in Tractate Megillah (9a), and Josephus as well affirms that the Septuagint was a translation only of the Law of Moses in his preface to Antiquities of the Jews.1 Moreover, Jerome, a church father and Bible translator who could hardly be construed as friendly to Judaism, affirms Josephus' statement regarding the authorship of the Septuagint in his preface to The Book of Hebrew Questions.2  Likewise, the Anchor Bible Dictionary reports precisely this point in the opening sentence of its article on the Septuagint which states, "The word 'Septuagint,' (from Lat septuaginta = 70; hence the abbreviation LXX) derives from a story that 72 elders translated the Pentateuch into Greek; the term therefore applied originally only to those five books."

In fact, Dr.  F.F.  Bruce, the preeminent professor of Biblical exegesis, keenly points out that, strictly speaking, the Septuagint deals only with the Pentateuch and not the whole Old Testament.  Bruce writes, "The Jews might have gone on at a later time to authorize a standard text of the rest of the Septuagint, but . . . lost interest in the Septuagint altogether.  With but few exceptions, every manuscript of the Septuagint which has come down to our day was copied and preserved in Christian, not Jewish, circles."outreachjudaism.org
If this is true, and I await correction, then it seems that the verse in question, was never part of the Septuagint, because it was only the Torah that was originally translated into Greek. The parts of Isaiah seem to come from purely Christian translators, making it even more suspect.

First, there is a huge difference between translating the five books of the Torah first and translating only those five books. People coming together to translate the Hebrew Bible into Greek would definitely translate also the other books of the Torah, not only the first five books attributed to Moses unless they denied the authenticity of the rest in the same way as the Sadducees.

Second, the sources I have teach that the whole Old Testament was translated into Greek. For instance:

Quote
Septuagint, abbreviation Lxx, the earliest extant Greek translation of the Old Testament from the original Hebrew, presumably made for the use of the Jewish community in Egypt when Greek was the lingua franca throughout the region. Analysis of the language has established that the Torah, or Pentateuch (the first five books of the Old Testament), was translated near the middle of the 3rd century bc and that the rest of the Old Testament was translated in the 2nd century bc. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/535154/Septuagint 

Quote
Despite its legendary character, Aristeas' account gained credence; Aristobulus (170-50 B.C.), in a passage preserved by Eusebius, says that "through the efforts of Demetrius of Phalerus a complete translation of the Jewish legislation was executed in the days of Ptolemy"; Aristeas's story is repeated almost verbatim by Flavius Josephus (Ant. Jud., XII, ii) and substantially, with the omission of Aristeas' name, by Philo of Alexandria (De vita Moysis, II, vi). the letter and the story were accepted as genuine by many Fathers and ecclesiastical writers till the beginning of the sixteenth century; other details serving to emphasize the extraordinary origin of the version were added to Aristeas's account" The seventy-two interpreters were inspired by God (Tertullian, St. Augustine, the author of the "Cohortatio ad Graecos" [Justin?], and others); in translating they did not consult with one another, they had even been shut up in separate cells, either singly, or in pairs, and their translations when compared were found to agree entirely both as to the sense and the expressions employed with the original text and with each other (Cohortatio ad Graecos, St. Irenæus, St. Clement of Alexandria). St. Jerome rejected the story of the cells as fabulous and untrue ("Praef. in Pentateuchum"; "Adv. Rufinum", II, xxv). likewise the alleged inspiration of the Septuagint. Finally the seventy two interpreters translated, not only the five books of the Pentateuch, but the entire Hebrew Old Testament. The authenticity of the letter, called in question first by Louis Vivès (1492-1540), professor at Louvain (Ad S. August. Civ. Dei, XVIII, xlii), then by Jos. Scaliger (d. 1609), and especially by H. Hody (d. 1705) and Dupin (d. 1719) is now universally denied. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13722a.htm 

Third, the presumption that the prophetic books of the Torah were translated and shaped by Christian writers in the second century A.D. is hillarious and illustrates that the Jewish imagination knows no boundaries. Even if we accept for a moment the absurd theory that Jesus added some verses into some parts of the Torah by running the risk of being called a liar and sent a secret message to some Christian writers living two centuries after Him so that they would tamper with the Septuagint, adapt it to His modifications, and thus save Him from the charges of fraud, the differences between the Septuagint and the late-dated (partly corrupted and unreliable) Massoretic text of the Hebrew Bible are not confined to the quotations in the New Testament.
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« Reply #95 on: March 15, 2011, 05:21:50 AM »

(...) Gentiles are not in the covenant of Abraham but all humankind is in the covenant God made with Noah, thus the Noahide Laws are binding on all. 

The Noahide Laws are very similar to the degree from the Apostolic Council in Acts.

What are 'Gentiles'?

Gentiles are non-Jews.  That is the way the NT defines them.  I don't see why that would be controversial with you.

Quote
In your opinion - are Christians 'Gentiles'?

I suppose this could be answered in several ways.  On the one hand there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ.

Quote
Who is "in the covenant of Abraham"?
I'm not sure.  I imagine Christians now.

Quote
"The Jews," you will probably say... but Abraham was not a 'Jew' nor were there any 'Jews' in existence anywhere on earth when God made His covenant with Abraham.

I'm afraid I don't understand your point.

Quote
This tells us to whom the promises were made:

Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ.

And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.

But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

For you (Christians) are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
- Galatians 3:16-29

Ok.

Quote
As for the so-called 'Noahide Laws'... They are "similar to the decrees of the Apostolic Council"?



Christianity (TRUE Christianity, wherein the Church affirms the Divinity of Jesus the Christ) is considered idolatry according to the Noahide laws as outlined by the Neo-Pharisees and their new Sanhedrin.
How does that mean the decision at the Council of Jerusalem doesn't resemble the Noahide laws?

Quote
The prescription for the punishment of idolaters (Christians) who transgress the Noahide laws by proclaiming the Divinity of Jesus Christ and the truth of the Trinity - is capital-punishment; death by decapitation.
Really?
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« Reply #96 on: March 15, 2011, 08:53:48 AM »

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...the differences between the Septuagint and the late-dated (partly corrupted and unreliable) Massoretic text of the Hebrew Bible are not confined to the quotations in the New Testament.
So it seems the debate comes down to which translation/version is better? Are you saying that the Jews do not use any documents older than the Septuagint?
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« Reply #97 on: March 17, 2011, 09:32:04 AM »

Are there any verses within the OT that suggest that the Messiah will come twice?
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« Reply #98 on: August 06, 2011, 06:57:59 AM »

The Law of letter is abolished in Christ and superseded by the Cross... The Cross is the Law of the Spirit... there is no greater , moral, ethical , etc, way of living than in the Cross.
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pasadi97
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« Reply #99 on: August 07, 2011, 06:21:36 PM »

Old Law did send people to Hell not being powerfull. So we see Jesus saving from hell King david, Isaiah and Adam and Abraham.

As christians we follow New Law that can send people to Heaven.
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