OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 30, 2014, 10:02:58 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: What happened to the Law?  (Read 4934 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2011, 12:42:31 AM »

But from a skeptics point of view, doesn't that seem quite convient? Christ comes, his followers claim he is the long awaited Messiah. Except, he didn't fulfill any of the requirements in a literal way, and many of the requirements will take place during a second coming. This sounds quite contrived. Which prophesies did Christ actually fulfill literally?
Logged
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2011, 12:47:13 AM »

But from a skeptics point of view, doesn't that seem quite convient? Christ comes, his followers claim he is the long awaited Messiah. Except, he didn't fulfill any of the requirements in a literal way, and many of the requirements will take place during a second coming. This sounds quite contrived. Which prophesies did Christ actually fulfill literally?

I think one of the things that surprised everyone is that noone expected the same person to fulfill both, messianic and suffering servant prophecies. There is also the fact that they were wanting a military leader and were focused on the things of this world that pass away and not on the eternal things of God.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Saint Iaint
This Poster Has Ignored Multiple Requests to Behave Better
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Once Delivered
Posts: 625


The Truth Shall Be Reviled


WWW
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2011, 09:58:19 AM »

Within the Hebrew Scriptures there are many references to the Messiah. It seems that a lot of the verses that spoke of a Messiah were "spiritualized" because Jesus didn't literally fulfill them. Was there a movement within Judaism, before Christ came, that spiritualized these verses, or was this strictly the work of the early Christian community?

Also, were there any that taught a second coming of the Messiah, before the early Church?

Well firstly, which 'version' of the "Hebrew Scriptures" are you talking about? And which verses are you talking about?

I would also argue that - because the OT Scriptures had the purpose of foretelling the coming of the Messiah... you could say that ALL of the Scriptures are in fact "Christian Scriptures" which are to be interpreted according to the Apostolic deposit of faith.

The Masoretic texts of the Scriptures used today are not the same as those Scriptures which were used in early and pre-Christian times.

†IC XC†
†NI KA†
Logged

Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute...

Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2011, 11:46:30 AM »

Well if it all comes down to which version, then we are surely on shaky ground indeed. From what I understand the Messiah was supposed to be a man who would restore Israel and usher in a time of worldwide peace. Which has not happened, yet. Although there are some verses pertaining to the Godhood of the Messiah, it seems much more of the verses do NOT suggest his divinity. And it seems a bit problematic, that the verses pertaining to world peace did not happen. Instead we wait for a Second Coming, which even the early Church thought was imminent, but was not. Now we wait for the eschaton, which could be imminent, but is still not fulfilled in the way the early Church thought that it would be. So a lot of the Christian interpretation of Messiah is a bit strained in more than one way. Thoughts?
Logged
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2011, 12:52:57 PM »

Well if it all comes down to which version, then we are surely on shaky ground indeed. From what I understand the Messiah was supposed to be a man who would restore Israel and usher in a time of worldwide peace.

Yes, this was the way the Jews interpreted the predictions and prophecies in the Torah. It is also not surprising that most of the prophets arose in Israel at the time of suffering and deportation. Their predictions were naturally about the redemption of Israel and her return to the golden days of King David, from whose line would descend the Messiah, the eternal and almighty King of Israel.

And it seems a bit problematic, that the verses pertaining to world peace did not happen. Instead we wait for a Second Coming, which even the early Church thought was imminent, but was not.

I do not think that the early Church deemed the Second Coming to be imminent. Even in the parable of the Ten Maidens Jesus implied that His return would take a long time. (When the bridegroom was late, they all fell asleep...)

Now we wait for the eschaton, which could be imminent, but is still not fulfilled in the way the early Church thought that it would be. So a lot of the Christian interpretation of Messiah is a bit strained in more than one way. Thoughts?

Jesus came to make peace between the Jews and the Gentiles by dying for both and destroying the wall of partition.

I think it is also possible to claim the opposite: the Jewish interpretation of the Messiah was naturally a bit strained in more than one way. They focused on the Messiah's Hebrew identity and thought that He would redeem only Israel and only politically because at the time of the prophecies Israel was under occupation and the people suffered greatly under the Gentile rule.
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2011, 01:11:08 PM »

To say that it was just because the prophets arose during times of persecution that we see Messianic prophecies of liberation and worldwide peace, does not negate the fact that that is what the prophecies say. Which Christ did not literally do yet. And did the Jews really have an idea of Second Coming?
As for the imminent return of Christ, are you really claiming that the early Church did not believe that he was coming back very soon? Perhaps within their generation?
Another question: If Messiah was to be from the line of David, yet had no earthly father, how can he be son of David? And the two geneologies that are found in the two Gospels are totally at variance with one another. How do we, and how did the early Church reconcile all of this?
Logged
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2011, 03:47:32 PM »

To say that it was just because the prophets arose during times of persecution that we see Messianic prophecies of liberation and worldwide peace, does not negate the fact that that is what the prophecies say.

I failed to understand what you meant here. It looks like circular reasoning to me. Could you please elaborate?  Huh

Which Christ did not literally do yet. And did the Jews really have an idea of Second Coming?

I do not know for sure if the Jews had an idea of the Second Coming. Besides, their not knowing anything about the Second Coming does not mean that the Torah did not contain this teaching. Their interpretation of the Torah does not allow this association unlike ours.

Above all, it is not accurate to suggest that the Jews always interpreted the Torah correctly. According to John 1, the Jewish priests asked John the Baptist if he was the same person as Elijah because they mistakenly interpreted the prophecy in Malachi literally.

As for the imminent return of Christ, are you really claiming that the early Church did not believe that he was coming back very soon? Perhaps within their generation?

Some may have thought it that way, but the New Testament does not openly support this view.

Another question: If Messiah was to be from the line of David, yet had no earthly father, how can he be son of David?

Mary was from David's line too. You should also not forget that Jesus was bound to Joseph's genealogy through Mary and was considered the son of Joseph.

And the two geneologies that are found in the two Gospels are totally at variance with one another. How do we, and how did the early Church reconcile all of this?

There are a few different theories, but the most commonly favored one is that the genealogy in Matthew belongs to Joseph whereas the one in Luke to Mary.
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2011, 04:26:44 PM »

Quote
I failed to understand what you meant here. It looks like circular reasoning to me. Could you please elaborate?
Forgive me. I thought that you were implying that all of the Messianic prophecies were of liberation, just because the Jews were always being dominated. I was just trying to point out that the prophecies are still valid, and still call for a Messiah that liberates his people from physical enemies.
As far as the Lineage going through Joseph, how does this work within Judaism? Would this be seen as adoption? Or would it be totally rejected outright? To actually be of Davidic decent, wouldn't he have to have a literal physical father?

Also, the OT talks a lot about different laws being eternal. I know of the language regarding a new covenant being made, but how does the new covenant negate the eternality of the Old?
Logged
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2011, 05:09:09 PM »

Forgive me. I thought that you were implying that all of the Messianic prophecies were of liberation, just because the Jews were always being dominated. I was just trying to point out that the prophecies are still valid, and still call for a Messiah that liberates his people from physical enemies.

We are still waiting for the fulfilment of such prophecies. According to the canticle in Luke 1, even Zechariah thanked God for sending the Messiah and liberating His people from her enemies:

Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,because he has come to help and has redeemed his people.

For he has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David,

as he spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets from long ago,

that we should be saved from our enemies,

and from the hand of all who hate us
.

He has done this to show mercy to our ancestors,

and to remember his holy covenant –

the oath that he swore to our ancestor Abraham.

This oath grants that we, being rescued from the hand of our enemies,

may serve him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before him for as long as we live.

However, it is also possible to say that Israel rejected the Messiah and lost her chance for liberation from the hands of her enemies until the Second Coming.

As far as the Lineage going through Joseph, how does this work within Judaism? Would this be seen as adoption? Or would it be totally rejected outright? To actually be of Davidic decent, wouldn't he have to have a literal physical father?

I do not know how Judaism would react to this. Are God's promises bound by the way Jews consider and evaluate them? The Old Testament designates the promised Messiah as the son of Abraham and David. Does this mean Abraham and David were Messiah's physical fathers?

Also, the OT talks a lot about different laws being eternal. I know of the language regarding a new covenant being made, but how does the new covenant negate the eternality of the Old?

Then why was there a need for a new covenant ?
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2011, 05:43:18 PM »

If Christianity was false, why would God let it spread to 2.2 billion people worldwide?

And I thought Christ's Church was the new Israel.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2011, 05:50:48 PM »

If Christianity was false, why would God let it spread to 2.2 billion people worldwide?

And I thought Christ's Church was the new Israel.
We should all convert to Islam based on that logic...
Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2011, 05:53:21 PM »

If Christianity was false, why would God let it spread to 2.2 billion people worldwide?

And I thought Christ's Church was the new Israel.
We should all convert to Islam based on that logic...

If Christ was the false messiah and savior, why would He let it spread? Because none of us would convert to the real messiah if he showed up.

BTW Islam isn't as big as Christianity is.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2011, 05:59:07 PM »

Quote
I do not know how Judaism would react to this. Are God's promises bound by the way Jews consider and evaluate them? The Old Testament designates the promised Messiah as the son of Abraham and David. Does this mean Abraham and David were Messiah's physical fathers?
This is the Protestant logic when it comes to the Orthodox Church. What's it matter what the Orthodox Church teaches etc.
I think you are playing with me concerning genealogy. If it weren't so important that Christ was son of David, why have the genealogies? And most of what I have heard about the geneology, even Fr. Hopko, suggests that they contradict, and are not in harmony.
Logged
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2011, 06:13:24 PM »

This is the Protestant logic when it comes to the Orthodox Church. What's it matter what the Orthodox Church teaches etc.

Do you consider the Jewish traditions and interpretations of the Torah sacred and infallible? I do not.

I think you are playing with me concerning genealogy.

Pardon me?  Huh

If it weren't so important that Christ was son of David, why have the genealogies?

This is a straw-man since I did not say that the geneaologies were not important.

And most of what I have heard about the geneology, even Fr. Hopko, suggests that they contradict, and are not in harmony.

Fr. Hopko is free to believe it that way. However, I do not have to agree with him on this issue.  Wink
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2011, 07:02:11 PM »

Quote
Do you consider the Jewish traditions and interpretations of the Torah sacred and infallible? I do not.
No I don't think that they are infallible. But if we are seeing interpretations that are totally foreign to the Torah being used by Christians, shouldn't we be a little concerned?
Logged
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #60 on: March 05, 2011, 07:50:11 PM »

Quote
The Tanakh gives several specifications as to who the messiah will be. He will be a descendent of King David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Jeremiah 23:5), observant of Jewish law (Isaiah 11:2-5), a righteous judge (Jeremiah 33:15), and a great military leader. From: religiousfacts.com/Judaism

It seems that two of the requirements for being Messiah are not/have not been fulfilled by Jesus. Please correct me, and provide links if possible, but if Jesus had no earthly father, how could he be a decendant of David? He wouldn't even have Davidic blood in him.
Also, he was not a military leader. Can we really say that he will be when he returns? I know we have some military imagery with the Apocalypse, but that could definitely be taken as symbolic.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 07:51:32 PM by PoorFoolNicholas » Logged
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2011, 10:18:22 AM »

Quote
Do you consider the Jewish traditions and interpretations of the Torah sacred and infallible? I do not.
No I don't think that they are infallible. But if we are seeing interpretations that are totally foreign to the Torah being used by Christians, shouldn't we be a little concerned?

You are speaking as if we Christians fabricated our own interpretation of the Old Testament and put it in the place of its original interpretation. All of Jesus' apostles were of Hebrew origin, and they all said that they could understand the scriptures in the power of the Holy Spirit.
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2011, 10:57:46 AM »

Quote
The Tanakh gives several specifications as to who the messiah will be. He will be a descendent of King David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Jeremiah 23:5), observant of Jewish law (Isaiah 11:2-5), a righteous judge (Jeremiah 33:15), and a great military leader. From: religiousfacts.com/Judaism

It seems that two of the requirements for being Messiah are not/have not been fulfilled by Jesus. Please correct me, and provide links if possible, but if Jesus had no earthly father, how could he be a decendant of David? He wouldn't even have Davidic blood in him.
Also, he was not a military leader. Can we really say that he will be when he returns? I know we have some military imagery with the Apocalypse, but that could definitely be taken as symbolic.

In your quote I cannot see a Biblical reference to the assertion that the Messiah would be a military leader.

Jesus' mother descended from David's line too.

http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/mt1-1.html

Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2011, 12:59:44 PM »

I very much appreciate the link provided concerning genealogy. I have tried to reconcile this issue in the past, and still have the same feelings. There are SO many assumptions present within all of the "theories" of Christ's lineage. And I refer to them as theories, because no one really knows for sure, do they? Which brings up more issues. One of the major ways of proving Christ as the son of David has multiple theories as to how that supposedly works. A big problem for me.
Logged
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #64 on: March 08, 2011, 05:41:48 AM »

I very much appreciate the link provided concerning genealogy. I have tried to reconcile this issue in the past, and still have the same feelings. There are SO many assumptions present within all of the "theories" of Christ's lineage. And I refer to them as theories, because no one really knows for sure, do they? Which brings up more issues. One of the major ways of proving Christ as the son of David has multiple theories as to how that supposedly works. A big problem for me.

Here is another article on the theme of genealogies: http://elvis.rowan.edu/~kilroy/CHRISTIA/library/infancy3.html
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #65 on: March 08, 2011, 03:42:28 PM »

I read the last link that you provided, and it still presents 4 theories of Christ's ancestry. I am really starting to lose my faith, and I'm not joking. I have looked at all of the verses in the OT that supposedly prove that Jesus is Messiah, and ALL of them are ripped out of context by the early Church. When read chapter by chapter, instead of verse by verse, these proof texts fall apart completely. Can anyone help me? Am I missing something?
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #66 on: March 08, 2011, 04:12:13 PM »

I read the last link that you provided, and it still presents 4 theories of Christ's ancestry. I am really starting to lose my faith, and I'm not joking. I have looked at all of the verses in the OT that supposedly prove that Jesus is Messiah, and ALL of them are ripped out of context by the early Church. When read chapter by chapter, instead of verse by verse, these proof texts fall apart completely. Can anyone help me? Am I missing something?

Maybe what you are missing is the witness of the entire Church--from Christ and His Apostles until today, which witnesses that the Gospel is true.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #67 on: March 08, 2011, 04:13:46 PM »

The same could be said of any religion though.
Logged
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #68 on: March 08, 2011, 05:40:57 PM »

I read the last link that you provided, and it still presents 4 theories of Christ's ancestry. I am really starting to lose my faith, and I'm not joking.

Are you losing your faith because we have different theories about the origin of the genealogies?  Huh


I have looked at all of the verses in the OT that supposedly prove that Jesus is Messiah, and ALL of them are ripped out of context by the early Church.

Not ripped out of context, but reinterpreted from a Messianic perspective. Those predictions were mostly implicit and subtle, and even the apostles could not find any relation between them and Jesus prior to their receiving the Spirit of God.

When read chapter by chapter, instead of verse by verse, these proof texts fall apart completely. Can anyone help me? Am I missing something?

The prophecies find meaning in and through Christ. You mistakenly presume that Jesus lived His life and carried out His ministry on earth to fulfill the Old Testament prophecies in the form of a to-do list. What determines the fulfillment is not the prophecies, but Christ. This is why you should not evaluate Christ in the light of the prophecies, but the prophecies in the light of Christ's factual words and actions.
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2011, 12:54:14 AM »

I understand where you are coming from, but the Church sought it's legitimacy not as a new religion, but as the New and Completed Israel. So what did they do? They sought to legitimize themselves using the Torah, and the Prophets. The problem is this, it appears that they just used a bunch of verses way out of context, and contrived a couple genealogies, which completely contradict each other, and no one seems to know why, or even how, Jesus is a son of David based on the ancestry given. To say that the verses in the Torah, or the Prophets must be interpreted in a "messianic" manner just means that we must look for Christ in every nook and craney, even when it demolishes the context of the entire chapter, or book, to do so. Which, I'm sorry, is completely unacceptable. The verses have a meaning, not just to the Jews, but a meaning in, and of, themselves.

Please give me some Scriptural proof that Christ is Messiah. I ask this not to mock, or ridicule any of you. I really want to believe. At this point, I am finding it very difficult to do so.
Logged
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #70 on: March 09, 2011, 04:13:13 AM »

I understand where you are coming from, but the Church sought it's legitimacy not as a new religion, but as the New and Completed Israel. So what did they do? They sought to legitimize themselves using the Torah, and the Prophets.

Using in the sense of abusing?  Wink

The problem is this, it appears that they just used a bunch of verses way out of context, and contrived a couple genealogies, which completely contradict each other, and no one seems to know why, or even how, Jesus is a son of David based on the ancestry given.

No one denies the immediate context of the Old Testament scriptures. As I said before, the apostles did not take the Old Testament into their hands and then fabricated a story to prove that Jesus was the promised Messiah. They did not bother to adapt Jesus' actions to the Old Testament.

The number of theories does not prove that the genealogies contradict each other or were later invented. They exist in different Gospels, in different locations, with many differences in form and content. They are not one and same.

To say that the verses in the Torah, or the Prophets must be interpreted in a "messianic" manner just means that we must look for Christ in every nook and craney, even when it demolishes the context of the entire chapter, or book, to do so. Which, I'm sorry, is completely unacceptable. The verses have a meaning, not just to the Jews, but a meaning in, and of, themselves.

Not every nook and craney... We do not have to and cannot find predictions by our efforts.

Please give me some Scriptural proof that Christ is Messiah. I ask this not to mock, or ridicule any of you. I really want to believe. At this point, I am finding it very difficult to do so.

Read from some patristic texts on this issue. I could also suggest talking to a Jewish convert to Christianity or a Messianic Jew. Ask them how they view the apostolic interpretation of the Old Testament prophecies.
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2011, 09:29:20 AM »

Quote
No one denies the immediate context of the Old Testament scriptures. As I said before, the apostles did not take the Old Testament into their hands and then fabricated a story to prove that Jesus was the promised Messiah. They did not bother to adapt Jesus' actions to the Old Testament.
I'm sorry but I must respectfully disagree. That is the whole point of the Gospel writers, Paul, Peter, etc. Jesus is Messiah, and we will show you, because he is all over the Old Testament. Except, we must do an interpretive headstand to make that the case...
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 09:30:27 AM by PoorFoolNicholas » Logged
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2011, 05:18:23 PM »

Have you read St Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho?
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2011, 05:29:13 PM »

PoorFoolNicholas,

Am I allowed to ask you a personal question related to our discussion?

I see that you have modified some of your profile information and laid emphasis on Old Testament figures and references. Why is that? You previously said you were losing your Christian faith? Have you decided to leave Christianity and be a Jew now? If so, why have you decided to be Jewish? A person who loses one's Christian faith does not automatically and inevitably become a follower of Judaism.  Huh
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #74 on: March 09, 2011, 05:36:41 PM »

Absolutely fine to ask brother. I guess it is something that I've struggled with for a while now. And no I would not classify myself as Jewish, but if I have followed the Judeo-Christian God my entire life, and am losing faith in the Christian part, where else could I go? Certainly not Islam. Outreachjudaism.org is a site that I think all should take a look at. It seems to refute almost all of the Christian Messianic claims. Look for the question and answer section.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 05:39:14 PM by PoorFoolNicholas » Logged
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #75 on: March 09, 2011, 06:42:35 PM »

Have you read St Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho?
If you think that it will be helpful to me I'll read it tonight, after I put the kids to bed.  Wink Thank you Melodist!
Logged
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #76 on: March 09, 2011, 06:58:31 PM »

Have you read St Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho?
If you think that it will be helpful to me I'll read it tonight, after I put the kids to bed.  Wink Thank you Melodist!

It's kind of long, but discusses some of the issues of division between Christianity and Judaism.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #77 on: March 12, 2011, 05:16:30 PM »

Another thing that I was wondering about is this: what's with the verses in the Gospels that are clearly made up, as in they are not in the Torah/Prophets? An example would be, And he shall be called a Nazarene.
Logged
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #78 on: March 12, 2011, 06:58:21 PM »

Another thing that I was wondering about is this: what's with the verses in the Gospels that are clearly made up, as in they are not in the Torah/Prophets? An example would be, And he shall be called a Nazarene.

The hebrew word used in the Torah for describing the "branch" that will grow out of the stem of Jesse in Is 11:1 is "netzer". I believe this was meant to be a play on words.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #79 on: March 12, 2011, 07:04:34 PM »

I have never heard that interpretation before. Another issue which is strange to me: Out of Egypt I have called my son. Now when read within it's context, this verse has absolutely nothing to do with Christ in Egypt. What about these and other verses that appear to be wrenched from their normal context?
Logged
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #80 on: March 12, 2011, 07:25:55 PM »

Another thing that I was wondering about is this: what's with the verses in the Gospels that are clearly made up, as in they are not in the Torah/Prophets? An example would be, And he shall be called a Nazarene.

Note that Matthew used the word "prophet" with a plural marker in his Gospel only while referring to this prophecy.

Being called/identified as a Nazarene had negative implications in Israel in Jesus' time:

Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the law, and the prophets also wrote about – Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” Nathanael replied, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” (John 1:45-46)

When Jesus was known as a Nazarene, He was despised by His people. The Old Testament has a few prophecies which say that the Messiah will be disparaged and rejected.
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #81 on: March 12, 2011, 07:30:08 PM »

I have never heard that interpretation before. Another issue which is strange to me: Out of Egypt I have called my son. Now when read within it's context, this verse has absolutely nothing to do with Christ in Egypt. What about these and other verses that appear to be wrenched from their normal context?

It is natural because the statement "Out of Egypt I have called my son" gained a new sense through Christ. Matthew's reference to that verse shows that Christ is the new Israel and the Son of God, who went to Egypt and spent some time there in accordance with God's plan.
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #82 on: March 12, 2011, 09:08:05 PM »

Quote
It is natural because the statement "Out of Egypt I have called my son" gained a new sense through Christ. Matthew's reference to that verse shows that Christ is the new Israel and the Son of God, who went to Egypt and spent some time there in accordance with God's plan.
I appreciate you replying in such helpful ways. But this is my point, you are arguing that a verse with absolutely no Christological, or Messianic allusions whatsoever, suddenly takes on a completely Messianic meaning beginning with the incarnation. This logic is strained indeed. And I do not say so to belittle you personally, but the Church's hermeneutic is awful IMO.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 09:09:35 PM by PoorFoolNicholas » Logged
LBK
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,237


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #83 on: March 12, 2011, 09:13:39 PM »

Quote
Out of Egypt I have called my son. Now when read within it's context, this verse has absolutely nothing to do with Christ in Egypt. What about these and other verses that appear to be wrenched from their normal context?

Joseph the All-Comely, son of Jacob the Patriarch, is frequently referred to liturgically as a type (analogy) of Christ. This is but one Orthodox explanation of the phrase "Out of Egypt I have called my son". Have a look at the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete, for starters.

Another is the Exodus, where the Israelites (spiritual sons of Jacob, father of Joseph the All-Comely), under the leadership of Moses, were called out of Egypt, and Pharaoh's slavery. It is no accident that Exodus is one of the OT books read daily during Great Lent.


Logged
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #84 on: March 12, 2011, 10:45:43 PM »

Here is the entire chapter that contains the verse:
Quote
Hosea 11

The LORD’s Love for Israel

 1(A) When Israel was a child,(B) I loved him,
   and out of Egypt I(C) called(D) my son.
2(E) The more they were called,
   the more they went away;
(F) they kept sacrificing to the Baals
   and burning offerings to idols.
 3Yet it was(G) I who taught Ephraim to walk;
   I took them up by their arms,
   but they did not know that(H) I healed them.
4(I) I led them with cords of kindness,[a]
   with the bands of love,
and(J) I became to them as one who eases the yoke on their jaws,
   and(K) I bent down to them and fed them.

 5(L) They shall not return to the land of Egypt,
   but(M) Assyria shall be their king,
   (N) because(O) they have refused to return to me.
6(P) The sword shall rage against their cities,
   consume the bars of their gates,
   and devour them(Q) because of their own counsels.
7My people are bent(R) on turning away from me,
   and though(S) they call out to the Most High,
   he shall not raise them up at all.

 8How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
   How can I hand you over, O Israel?
(T) How can I make you(U) like Admah?
   How can I treat you(V) like Zeboiim?
My heart recoils within me;
   my compassion grows warm and tender.
9I will not execute my burning anger;
   I will not again destroy Ephraim;
(W) for I am God and not a man,
   (X) the Holy One in your midst,
   and I will not come in wrath.[c]

 10(Y) They shall go after the LORD;
   (Z) he will roar like a lion;
when he roars,
   his children shall come trembling(AA) from the west;
11they shall come trembling like birds(AB) from Egypt,
   and(AC) like doves(AD) from the land of Assyria,
   and I will return them to their homes, declares the LORD.
12[d] Ephraim(AE) has surrounded me with lies,
   and the house of Israel with deceit,
but Judah still walks with God
   and is faithful to the Holy One.

Here is my issue: it seems that we are arguing that only 1 verse is to be applied to Jesus. I am assuming that we do not think that Christ ever bowed the knee to Baal. But this is strange. How can only this verse apply, when clearly being used out of context? I have a feeling that many of the Fathers used an allegorical method to interpret the OT for a reason. Because, at the end of the day, the verses have to be interpreted that way or they won't work at all. I'm also starting to see the reason why many in the early church disliked the Jews so much. They had some reasonable, and valid points regarding OT interpretation.

Logged
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #85 on: March 13, 2011, 07:46:07 AM »

Here is the entire chapter that contains the verse:
Quote
Hosea 11

The LORD’s Love for Israel

 1(A) When Israel was a child,(B) I loved him,
   and out of Egypt I(C) called(D) my son.
2(E) The more they were called,
   the more they went away;
(F) they kept sacrificing to the Baals
   and burning offerings to idols.
 3Yet it was(G) I who taught Ephraim to walk;
   I took them up by their arms,
   but they did not know that(H) I healed them.
4(I) I led them with cords of kindness,[a]
   with the bands of love,
and(J) I became to them as one who eases the yoke on their jaws,
   and(K) I bent down to them and fed them.

 5(L) They shall not return to the land of Egypt,
   but(M) Assyria shall be their king,
   (N) because(O) they have refused to return to me.
6(P) The sword shall rage against their cities,
   consume the bars of their gates,
   and devour them(Q) because of their own counsels.
7My people are bent(R) on turning away from me,
   and though(S) they call out to the Most High,
   he shall not raise them up at all.

 8How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
   How can I hand you over, O Israel?
(T) How can I make you(U) like Admah?
   How can I treat you(V) like Zeboiim?
My heart recoils within me;
   my compassion grows warm and tender.
9I will not execute my burning anger;
   I will not again destroy Ephraim;
(W) for I am God and not a man,
   (X) the Holy One in your midst,
   and I will not come in wrath.[c]

 10(Y) They shall go after the LORD;
   (Z) he will roar like a lion;
when he roars,
   his children shall come trembling(AA) from the west;
11they shall come trembling like birds(AB) from Egypt,
   and(AC) like doves(AD) from the land of Assyria,
   and I will return them to their homes, declares the LORD.
12[d] Ephraim(AE) has surrounded me with lies,
   and the house of Israel with deceit,
but Judah still walks with God
   and is faithful to the Holy One.

Here is my issue: it seems that we are arguing that only 1 verse is to be applied to Jesus. I am assuming that we do not think that Christ ever bowed the knee to Baal. But this is strange. How can only this verse apply, when clearly being used out of context?

The introductory verse refers to the Children of Israel at the time of the Exodus, thus a past event and a past community, but connects these to the Children of Israel living under occupation at the time of the prophets. If I follow your reasoning, I must conclude that the first verse in this chapter makes no sense because the Children of Israel did not keep sacrificing to Baal at the time of the Exodus.
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #86 on: March 13, 2011, 11:29:19 AM »

Quote
If I follow your reasoning, I must conclude that the first verse in this chapter makes no sense because the Children of Israel did not keep sacrificing to Baal at the time of the Exodus.
I don't think I follow your reasoning to be perfectly honest. The first verse in chapter eleven can only apply to Messiah if it is used allegorically. I am not saying there is anything wrong with an allegorical method, but it shouldn't completely abuse the context of said verse(s).
Logged
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #87 on: March 13, 2011, 08:07:47 PM »

Quote
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners;
This is from Isaiah 61:1

Quote
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,

This quote is from Luke 4:18. What is interesting is that the author of Luke adds to the verse in Isaiah. He adds recovery from blindness, to more fully show that the verse pertains to Jesus Christ. This seems, at least on the surface, to be very misleading.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2011, 08:09:48 PM by PoorFoolNicholas » Logged
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #88 on: March 14, 2011, 03:31:40 AM »

Quote
If I follow your reasoning, I must conclude that the first verse in this chapter makes no sense because the Children of Israel did not keep sacrificing to Baal at the time of the Exodus.
I don't think I follow your reasoning to be perfectly honest. The first verse in chapter eleven can only apply to Messiah if it is used allegorically. I am not saying there is anything wrong with an allegorical method, but it shouldn't completely abuse the context of said verse(s).

This is the second time you are accusing me of dishonesty (Last time you said I was playing a game with you about the genealogies).

What is so dishonest about showing that Hosea 11:1 is not actually about the past community of the Children of Israel and their Exodus from Egypt under Moses' leadership?
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #89 on: March 14, 2011, 03:51:16 AM »

Quote
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners;
This is from Isaiah 61:1

Quote
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,

This quote is from Luke 4:18. What is interesting is that the author of Luke adds to the verse in Isaiah. He adds recovery from blindness, to more fully show that the verse pertains to Jesus Christ. This seems, at least on the surface, to be very misleading.

I can see the reference to the blind in Isaiah 61:

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me; he has sent me to preach glad tidings to the poor, to heal the broken in heart, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind...

ΠΝΕΥΜΑ Κυρίου ἐπ᾿ ἐμέ, οὗ εἵνεκεν ἔχρισέ με· εὐαγγελίσασθαι πτωχοῖς ἀπέσταλκέ με, ἰάσασθαι τοὺς συντετριμένους τὴν καρδίαν, κηρύξαι αἰχμαλώτοις ἄφεσιν καὶ τυφλοῖς ἀνάβλεψιν

http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=43&page=61

Jesus quoted from the Septuagint version of Isaiah. Blaming Luke for textual addition by disregarding the Septuagint and focusing on the late-dated Masoretic text is quite misleading indeed.  Roll Eyes
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.142 seconds with 72 queries.