Author Topic: What is everyone reading?  (Read 1019207 times)

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Offline FinnJames

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4500 on: May 08, 2015, 01:11:56 AM »
John Behr, Becoming Human: Meditations on Christian Anthropology in Word and Image

A nice book to read once and keep coming back to. The art work, various typefaces and poetic prose invite meditative interaction with the text.

This would be a great gift to a Christian friend who wants to know what makes Orthodoxy different from other denominations.

Offline wgw

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4501 on: May 08, 2015, 06:26:08 AM »
Heirs to Forgotten Kingdoms

This book by a British diplomat is a tour of the critically endangered eeligion's of the Middle East.  The Mamdaeams of Iraq, the Yazidis, the Copts, the Samaritans, and the Zoroastrians.  The Assyrian Christians are covered in a chapter on Detroit amusingly.

I started with the chapter on the Copts and found it thrilling.  I learned several things of use.

The author posited that the cenobitic monastery resembles the old pagan Egyptian temples in being a community of pious men supported by farming, maintaining a temple and visited by pilgrims.  I wonder how true this is.   There was much else of interest.  And now I know the proper name for Coptic beans.  The other chapters look promising.

When finished I might post a review.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4502 on: May 08, 2015, 04:35:09 PM »
Philosophy and Worldview by Mário Ferreira dos Santos
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4503 on: May 10, 2015, 08:58:29 AM »
A. Edward Siecienski  - The Authenticity of Maximus the Confessor's "Letter to Marinus": The Argument from Theological Consistency

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4504 on: May 10, 2015, 09:26:18 AM »
Tom Dykstra's Hallowed Be Thy Name
Seems there was a dust up on Mt. Athos, 1912 or so.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 09:56:24 AM by LenInSebastopol »
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Offline Echa

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4505 on: May 10, 2015, 09:33:23 AM »
The Protestant's dilemma - devin rose
Христос възкресе! Наистина възкресе!

Offline biro

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4506 on: May 10, 2015, 10:31:59 AM »
"The Arc of the Swallow," S.J. Gazan
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4507 on: May 10, 2015, 03:41:18 PM »
PEACEFUL NEIGHBOR: Discovering the Countercultural Mister Rogers by Michael G. Long

From the Introduction:

Although he is one of the most underappreciated peacemakers in U.S. history, Fred Rogers richly deserves a place in the pantheon of pacifists who tried to shake the foundations of society and culture. To the day of his death, he was a radical Christian pacifist - fervently committed to the end of violence and the presence of social justice in its full glory. The time has come for us to pull him out of the shadows so we can celebrate him just as he was - a fierce peacemaker.


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« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 03:41:53 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4508 on: May 10, 2015, 03:42:36 PM »
PEACEFUL NEIGHBOR: Discovering the Countercultural Mister Rogers by Michael G. Long

From the Introduction:

Although he is one of the most underappreciated peacemakers in U.S. history, Fred Rogers richly deserves a place in the pantheon of pacifists who tried to shake the foundations of society and culture. To the day of his death, he was a radical Christian pacifist - fervently committed to the end of violence and the presence of social justice in its full glory. The time has come for us to pull him out of the shadows so we can celebrate him just as he was - a fierce peacemaker.


Selam

Igitur qui desiderat pacem etc.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 03:42:56 PM by Cyrillic »

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4509 on: May 24, 2015, 10:58:52 AM »
Plato's Republic. Reading this at a pretty fast pace over my break from work. I don't think I have laughed this hard from reading in a long time, Socrates rules. He's gotta be the indispensable philosopher.

The only problem I have with reading this text, and from what I've read elsewhere of Plato, is that it's not as engaging as some of the contemporary philosophy I've read precisely because the latter is much more relevant. Someone like a Zizek really demonstrates the immediacy and enthusiasm that goes with thinking about our own lives.

Although of course I think philosophy starts with Socrates' apprisal that the life which is unexamined is not worth living.

Speaking of which, I read the Apology in High School and re-read it again a few weeks ago, amazed how differently it reads to me today from 10 years ago. I actually got a little teary eyed, here is the creation of what it means to be human and that dialogue should be the measure to judge all other succeeding philosophy by.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 11:01:19 AM by nothing »
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4510 on: May 24, 2015, 11:05:48 AM »
Speaking of which, I read the Apology in High School and re-read it again a few weeks ago, amazed how differently it reads to me today from 10 years ago. I actually got a little teary eyed, here is the creation of what it means to be human and that dialogue should be the measure to judge all other succeeding philosophy by.

Really? I can't help but laugh when reading the Apology. Socrates was trolling the Athenians big-time. The Phaedo is much more of a tear-jerker.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 11:07:26 AM by Cyrillic »

Offline wgw

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4511 on: May 24, 2015, 11:06:52 AM »
Having finished Heis to Forgotten Kingdoms, a book on the endangered Minority faiths of the Middle East, I am now working on The Alliance of Divine Office by Hammon L'estrange, a poignant defence of the Anglican Liturgy against Non Conformist detractors.

I also want to push through more of the Philokalia this week, and I want to make more progress on The Typikon Decoded.

I'm also in the market for a good commemorative book on one of my favorite jetliners, the Vickers VC-10, which recently ended a 50 year career with the Royal Airforce.  I would also like to, while I'm at it, get a nice light anthology of classic SF, something along the lines of The Good Old Stuff edited by Gardner Dozois, which is a dazzling collection which introduced me at 14 to writers like Brian Aldiss, Jack Vance, A.E. van Vogt, Cordwainer Smith and James Tiptree Jr. (actually the psychologist Alice Sheldon in real life, who died tragically in a murder-suicide).
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4512 on: May 24, 2015, 11:23:59 AM »
Heirs to Forgotten Kingdoms

This book by a British diplomat is a tour of the critically endangered eeligion's of the Middle East.  The Mamdaeams of Iraq, the Yazidis, the Copts, the Samaritans, and the Zoroastrians.  The Assyrian Christians are covered in a chapter on Detroit amusingly.

I started with the chapter on the Copts and found it thrilling.  I learned several things of use.

The author posited that the cenobitic monastery resembles the old pagan Egyptian temples in being a community of pious men supported by farming, maintaining a temple and visited by pilgrims.  I wonder how true this is.   There was much else of interest.  And now I know the proper name for Coptic beans.  The other chapters look promising.

When finished I might post a review.
Is this a recent publication about the contemporary Middle East or a historical time period?

Offline Volnutt

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4513 on: May 24, 2015, 03:09:17 PM »
Quote
I'm also in the market for a good commemorative book on one of my favorite jetliners, the Vickers VC-10, which recently ended a 50 year career with the Royal Airforce.

Huh. You and Fr. Laurent Cleenewerck. It's making me wonder if there's some connection between an interest in comparative liturgics and being a plane boffin. ;D
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4514 on: May 24, 2015, 03:14:42 PM »
Now that season one of CW's TV Flash series is over, I decided to reread Crisis on Infinite Earths. I think I'm finally getting a handle on that book's plot progression even if it still makes no logical sense lol.

I lost my copy of The Sorrows of Young Werther for about a month. I'll be done with it today.

Still working through the Epistles of St. Ignatius of Antioch.

Also, Stephen King's From a Buick 8.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline wgw

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4515 on: May 24, 2015, 03:25:21 PM »
Heirs to Forgotten Kingdoms

This book by a British diplomat is a tour of the critically endangered eeligion's of the Middle East.  The Mamdaeams of Iraq, the Yazidis, the Copts, the Samaritans, and the Zoroastrians.  The Assyrian Christians are covered in a chapter on Detroit amusingly.

I started with the chapter on the Copts and found it thrilling.  I learned several things of use.

The author posited that the cenobitic monastery resembles the old pagan Egyptian temples in being a community of pious men supported by farming, maintaining a temple and visited by pilgrims.  I wonder how true this is.   There was much else of interest.  And now I know the proper name for Coptic beans.  The other chapters look promising.

When finished I might post a review.
Is this a recent publication about the contemporary Middle East or a historical time period?

Very recent.  It was published last fall by a retired British diplomat.  It discusses the Mandaeans, Yazidis, Druze, Zoroastrians, Samaritans, Copts, a mountain religion in Pakistan, and a variety of displaced persons practicing their faith in Detroit.  It discusses the current plight faced by all of these religions.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline wgw

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4516 on: May 24, 2015, 03:26:38 PM »
Quote
I'm also in the market for a good commemorative book on one of my favorite jetliners, the Vickers VC-10, which recently ended a 50 year career with the Royal Airforce.

Huh. You and Fr. Laurent Cleenewerck. It's making me wonder if there's some connection between an interest in comparative liturgics and being a plane boffin. ;D

Is he also into VC-10s?  I'm specifically an enthusiast of vintage airliners; fighters and General aviation aircraft bore me.  Bombers are kind of cool, but Imprefer airliners as they are better looking and less lethal.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4517 on: May 25, 2015, 10:16:02 AM »
Currently reading Nothing Is True and Everything is Possible: The Surreal Heart of the New Russian by Peter Pomerantsev which is a first hand account of Russia from the 1990s to about 2014.

Enjoyable, easy read too, as this Journalist/TV exec describes a whole economic, civil, social life of a country is piecemealed together after a quantifiable change/upset in it's post-communist structure.
Anecdotal incidents, interviews and observations used to paint a larger picture of "modern" Russia.
Also insightful to see our own country's ways of "influencing" us with our social structures.
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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4518 on: May 25, 2015, 11:07:19 PM »
The Broken Icon: Intuitive Existentialism In Classical Russian Fiction, by Geoffrey Clive

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4519 on: May 26, 2015, 12:25:34 AM »
Quote
I'm also in the market for a good commemorative book on one of my favorite jetliners, the Vickers VC-10, which recently ended a 50 year career with the Royal Airforce.

Huh. You and Fr. Laurent Cleenewerck. It's making me wonder if there's some connection between an interest in comparative liturgics and being a plane boffin. ;D

Is he also into VC-10s?  I'm specifically an enthusiast of vintage airliners; fighters and General aviation aircraft bore me.  Bombers are kind of cool, but Imprefer airliners as they are better looking and less lethal.

I don't know. All I know is his website says he's going to be teaching a class on jetliners at EUCLID for some reason. I guess he really is an interdisciplinary scholar.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline coptic orthodox boy

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4520 on: May 26, 2015, 01:19:35 AM »
Just finished Michael Scheuer's "Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror"

Currently reading Miyamoto Musashi's "Book of Five Rings" and Hannah Pakula's "The Last Empress: Madame Chiang Kai-Shek and the Birth of Modern China"

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4521 on: May 26, 2015, 08:21:24 AM »
Just finished Michael Scheuer's "Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror"

Currently reading Miyamoto Musashi's "Book of Five Rings" and Hannah Pakula's "The Last Empress: Madame Chiang Kai-Shek and the Birth of Modern China"

So do you recommend or find any truthiness in Scheuer's Imperial Hubris....or not much or ???
As it is about 8 years old, did the author correctly assess the situation as it stands today?
I'm lazy and wondering if it is worth the time, as I understand it is kind of a tough read.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 08:25:02 AM by LenInSebastopol »
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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4522 on: May 26, 2015, 10:27:03 AM »
Finished Storm of Steel last night.  It ends with him being awarded the Blue Max...a rather abrupt ending.  The book is very internal, focusing in vivid detail his experiences (as might be expected from a book made from diary entries).  His writing style is enthralling. 

I will probably finish Children of the Mind next, the last book in the Ender series.  It was good when I started, but Storm of Steel came in, I read the first page to get a feel for it and was hooked so Ender had to go on hold for a while!

I am thinking about ordering The Decline of the West by Spengler next.  The ideas sound interesting, but this is going to be a heavy book...it actually comes in two parts.  I read that it is best to read it in German, but I am not that adept with that language and he is supposed to be pretty complex even for native speakers, so just going to stick with English.
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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4523 on: May 26, 2015, 06:13:15 PM »
My good friend's recently published memoir:

"The World's Largest Man"
http://www.amazon.com/The-Worlds-Largest-Man-Memoir/dp/0062351494

Here's a great passage that I just read today:

In my daily life, it appeared that black people and white people got along fine. At school, we ate at the same tables, refreshed ourselves at the same fountains, relieved our bladders in the same troughs, where we enjoyed a special brotherhood experienced only by those whose jets of urine had comingled. We knew instinctively that all of us were alike on the inside, that the only true test of a man's character was the muscular strength of his urethra.

Then I learned what people outside our state thought of us.

"They're making a movie about Mississippi!" somebody would say.

And the movie stars would visit and they'd eat and it'd be great fun until the movie came out and we saw that they believed things about us that couldn't be true, like how all of us talked like Foghorn Leghorn and the state lacked even a single building with effective air conditioning. We'd watch "NBC Nightly News" and get very excited when we heard Tom Brokaw say something about us. Sometimes it'd be a story about how poor we all were, or how dumb we all were, but it usually had something to do with how racist we all were. The message was clear: If anyone was ruining anything, it was the white people.



Selam
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 06:14:18 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
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Offline coptic orthodox boy

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4524 on: May 26, 2015, 09:28:29 PM »
Just finished Michael Scheuer's "Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror"

Currently reading Miyamoto Musashi's "Book of Five Rings" and Hannah Pakula's "The Last Empress: Madame Chiang Kai-Shek and the Birth of Modern China"

So do you recommend or find any truthiness in Scheuer's Imperial Hubris....or not much or ???
As it is about 8 years old, did the author correctly assess the situation as it stands today?
I'm lazy and wondering if it is worth the time, as I understand it is kind of a tough read.


I'd say I agree with a lot of what Mr. Scheuer has to say (not only from this book but also interviews he's given) with regards to the U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East and our relationship with Israel. 
He certainly doesn't demonize Osama bin Laden in the book, if that is what you mean by "tough read."  I found the book relatively easy to follow, and he repeats many of his points again and again throughout the book.  The book is a bit dated (over a decade old), but he correctly predicted a long and winless war against Islamic extremist and unless there was a change in our rules of engagement (militarily speaking) there would be no victory.
I'd like to hear his opinion's regarding bin Laden's death as well as the rise of ISIS in the Middle East. 

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4525 on: May 26, 2015, 09:33:58 PM »
Yeah, the image and perception is stronger than the facts and the truth, Gebre.
 :'(
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 09:35:12 PM by LenInSebastopol »
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4526 on: May 26, 2015, 09:45:40 PM »
Yeah, the image and perception is stronger than the facts and the truth, Gebre.
 :'(

It's really a wonderful book, full of humor and poignancy. I'm really happy for my friend's literary success.


Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
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Offline biro

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4527 on: May 26, 2015, 09:56:22 PM »
"Detective Inspector Huss," Helene Tursten
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline Alxandra

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4528 on: May 28, 2015, 02:21:24 PM »
St Maximus Confessor Selected Writings
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 02:22:30 PM by Alxandra »
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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4529 on: May 28, 2015, 02:47:18 PM »
My Elder Joseph the Hesychast, by Elder Ephraim. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4530 on: May 28, 2015, 02:53:51 PM »
My Elder Joseph the Hesychast, by Elder Ephraim.

I love that book. I wish I could read Elder Ephraim's description of his life on the Holy Mountain with Elder Joseph forever, so peaceful :)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 02:54:16 PM by Alxandra »
"And if the man is the head of the family then the woman is the heart, and this heart is made by God that He may find rest in it”
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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4531 on: May 28, 2015, 04:23:47 PM »
John Behr, Becoming Human: Meditations on Christian Anthropology in Word and Image

St Maximus Confessor Selected Writings

As seen on page 101, in the month of May, in the year 2015, this thread peaked. Let us all give thanks.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 04:23:57 PM by Justin Kissel »

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4532 on: May 28, 2015, 05:55:27 PM »
My Elder Joseph the Hesychast, by Elder Ephraim.

I love that book. I wish I could read Elder Ephraim's description of his life on the Holy Mountain with Elder Joseph forever, so peaceful :)

I'm definitely enjoying parts of this book. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4533 on: May 28, 2015, 08:29:05 PM »
Looking for Alaska by John Green
Howl's Moving Castle by Diana Wynne Jones
The Alexiad by Anna Comnene
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Indocern

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4534 on: May 29, 2015, 10:33:49 AM »
Spiritual directions for repentance and confession by Sliven's Metropolitan Ioanikii.

Offline Echa

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4535 on: May 29, 2015, 08:54:52 PM »
The Holy Bible — st. Luke
Христос възкресе! Наистина възкресе!

Offline biro

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4536 on: May 29, 2015, 09:09:11 PM »
"Believing the Lie," Elizabeth George
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline Theophania

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4537 on: June 02, 2015, 12:49:53 AM »
I finished Kh. Frederica's latest book, "Welcome to the Orthodox Church" last night.

Stuck on a midnight shift tonight and I've started "I am Hutterite" by Mary-Ann Kirby. Yay for having a job where I can be on my laptop, read, or knit.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Online Asteriktos

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4538 on: June 02, 2015, 04:34:55 AM »
Asking for It, by Lilah Pace

Hopefully the word that characterizes it for me after I've finished will be 'thoughtful' rather than 'horrifying.'

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4539 on: June 02, 2015, 11:34:16 PM »
A Letter Showing why our English Bibles differ so much from the Septuagint, by Thomas Brett

1743, representin'

Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4540 on: June 03, 2015, 06:41:48 PM »
Heirs to Forgotten Kingdoms

This book by a British diplomat is a tour of the critically endangered eeligion's of the Middle East.  The Mamdaeams of Iraq, the Yazidis, the Copts, the Samaritans, and the Zoroastrians.  The Assyrian Christians are covered in a chapter on Detroit amusingly.

I started with the chapter on the Copts and found it thrilling.  I learned several things of use.

The author posited that the cenobitic monastery resembles the old pagan Egyptian temples in being a community of pious men supported by farming, maintaining a temple and visited by pilgrims.  I wonder how true this is.   There was much else of interest.  And now I know the proper name for Coptic beans.  The other chapters look promising.

When finished I might post a review.
Is this a recent publication about the contemporary Middle East or a historical time period?

Very recent.  It was published last fall by a retired British diplomat.  It discusses the Mandaeans, Yazidis, Druze, Zoroastrians, Samaritans, Copts, a mountain religion in Pakistan, and a variety of displaced persons practicing their faith in Detroit.  It discusses the current plight faced by all of these religions.
Thank you for replying.  I will check  if my local library has it yet.

Offline coptic orthodox boy

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4541 on: June 05, 2015, 09:36:39 PM »
Some of the books I'll be reading over the next few weeks. Looking to start investing some of my money (outside of my Roth IRA and a collection of bullion gold and silver coins) so I'm taking some advice from the one of the world's richest...

"Warren Buffett Speaks: Wit and Wisdom from the World's Greatest Investor" by Janet Lowe

"Buttettology: the Previously Unexplained Techniques That Have Made Warren Buffett the World's Most Famous Investor" by Mary Buffett and David Clark

"The Warren Buffett Way: Investment Strategies of the World's Greatest Investor" by Robert G Hagstrom Jr.

"Wu: The Chinese Empress Who Schemed, Seduced and Murdered Her Way to Become a Living God" by Jonathan Clements

And slowly making my way through the first "Game of Thrones" book

Offline scamandrius

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4542 on: June 05, 2015, 10:30:54 PM »
Right now:

The Consolation of Philosophy by Boethius.
A Dialogue of Cumfort [sic] against Tribulation by Sir Thomas More.
I, Claudius by Sir Robert Graves.

For the near future:

Aeneid by Vergil.
Game of Thrones by George R.R. Martin (just to see what all the craze is about)
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4543 on: June 05, 2015, 10:39:27 PM »
Game of Thrones by George R.R. Martin (just to see what all the craze is about)

I love the show, but disliked the book (I only tried the first). Hope you have better 'luck' (or whatever term fits)...

Offline biro

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Re: What is everyone reading?
« Reply #4544 on: June 05, 2015, 11:25:40 PM »
"Little Girl Lost," Brian McGilloway
My only weakness is, well, never mind