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Author Topic: New Book: Metropolitan Petros of Astoria  (Read 1345 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 01, 2014, 11:11:40 PM »

Please note: advertising one's own book requires prior approval from a Global Moderator or Administrator. In this case, I approve of myself posting a link to my book Wink  --Anastasios

Dear Friends,

It is with great pleasure that I announce the availability of my book, "Metropolitan Petros of Astoria: A Microcosm of the Old Calendar Movement in America." This work examines the ecclesiastical life of Metropolitan Petros (Astyfides), the founder of St. Markella's Cathedral in Astoria, New York.

Amazon Kindle

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Please consider purchasing a copy and supporting my nascent writing career.

In Christ,
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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2014, 11:12:33 PM »

Nook, iBookstore, and Kobo coming soon (as soon as those companies approve the work).
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« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2014, 02:29:19 PM »

A post with excerpts and direct links to where the book is currently available. The Nook store just approved it, and it will be up in the next 72 hours. iBookstore is still pending. Please buy my book--your support will help me and my family directly!

Metropolitan Petros of Astoria: A Microcosm of the Old Calendar Movement in America
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« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2014, 06:32:47 PM »

we sometimes used to go to St. Markella’s when i was a kid and lived in Astoria, it was one of my favorite churches, beautiful. mostly we used to go to st. Demetrius, around the corner, i also went to Greek school there. how did this book come about, has Metropolitan Petros left us? someone told me that the church is now with the newcalender, is that true?
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« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2014, 06:39:47 PM »

we sometimes used to go to St. Markella’s when i was a kid and lived in Astoria, it was one of my favorite churches, beautiful. mostly we used to go to st. Demetrius, around the corner, i also went to Greek school there. how did this book come about, has Metropolitan Petros left us? someone told me that the church is now with the newcalender, is that true?
St. Markella is still old calendar. The nearby St. Irene Chrysovalantou is now a canonical Orthodox Church directly under HH Bartholomew of Constantinople, but has special permission to retain its usage of the old calendar.  Perhaps you are confusing the two? If you are talking about an exceptionally beautiful church, it's probably St. Irene.  Wink
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« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2014, 06:53:06 PM »

we sometimes used to go to St. Markella’s when i was a kid and lived in Astoria, it was one of my favorite churches, beautiful. mostly we used to go to st. Demetrius, around the corner, i also went to Greek school there. how did this book come about, has Metropolitan Petros left us? someone told me that the church is now with the newcalender, is that true?
St. Markella is still old calendar. The nearby St. Irene Chrysovalantou is now a canonical Orthodox Church directly under HH Bartholomew of Constantinople, but has special permission to retain its usage of the old calendar.  Perhaps you are confusing the two? If you are talking about an exceptionally beautiful church, it's probably St. Irene.  Wink

hugh, i think you are right, it is st. Irine i was thinking abt! i gota look up st. Markella now. I wonder how long i have been interchangably mixing up the two?!Though i know abt Met. Petros, he had sufferd a stroke, and has a monastary in upstate NY? he was in the process of building a replica of agia, Sophia in NY. is he still with us? thx for the clarification.
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« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2014, 12:47:13 AM »

we sometimes used to go to St. Markella’s when i was a kid and lived in Astoria, it was one of my favorite churches, beautiful. mostly we used to go to st. Demetrius, around the corner, i also went to Greek school there. how did this book come about, has Metropolitan Petros left us? someone told me that the church is now with the newcalender, is that true?
St. Markella is still old calendar. The nearby St. Irene Chrysovalantou is now a canonical Orthodox Church directly under HH Bartholomew of Constantinople, but has special permission to retain its usage of the old calendar.

Not anymore.  Not for several years. 

Quote
Perhaps you are confusing the two? If you are talking about an exceptionally beautiful church, it's probably St. Irene.  Wink

They are both beautiful.  I can't make up my mind which I think is more beautiful, as my standards are not typical.  But if I'm in the area and can only visit one, I usually go to St Markella's because the people are more welcoming.  I try and go to both, though, since they are not that far from each other at all.
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« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2014, 12:49:08 AM »

we sometimes used to go to St. Markella’s when i was a kid and lived in Astoria, it was one of my favorite churches, beautiful. mostly we used to go to st. Demetrius, around the corner, i also went to Greek school there. how did this book come about, has Metropolitan Petros left us? someone told me that the church is now with the newcalender, is that true?
St. Markella is still old calendar. The nearby St. Irene Chrysovalantou is now a canonical Orthodox Church directly under HH Bartholomew of Constantinople, but has special permission to retain its usage of the old calendar.  Perhaps you are confusing the two? If you are talking about an exceptionally beautiful church, it's probably St. Irene.  Wink

hugh, i think you are right, it is st. Irine i was thinking abt! i gota look up st. Markella now. I wonder how long i have been interchangably mixing up the two?!Though i know abt Met. Petros, he had sufferd a stroke, and has a monastary in upstate NY? he was in the process of building a replica of agia, Sophia in NY. is he still with us? thx for the clarification.

You're thinking of Metropolitan Pavlos, the nephew (?) of Metropolitan Petros.  I just saw Met Pavlos on Sunday, so yes, he is still very much alive, serving, preaching, etc. 
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« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2014, 12:52:43 AM »

we sometimes used to go to St. Markella’s when i was a kid and lived in Astoria, it was one of my favorite churches, beautiful. mostly we used to go to st. Demetrius, around the corner, i also went to Greek school there. how did this book come about, has Metropolitan Petros left us? someone told me that the church is now with the newcalender, is that true?
St. Markella is still old calendar. The nearby St. Irene Chrysovalantou is now a canonical Orthodox Church directly under HH Bartholomew of Constantinople, but has special permission to retain its usage of the old calendar.

Not anymore.  Not for several years.  

Quote
Perhaps you are confusing the two? If you are talking about an exceptionally beautiful church, it's probably St. Irene.  Wink

They are both beautiful.  I can't make up my mind which I think is more beautiful, as my standards are not typical.  But if I'm in the area and can only visit one, I usually go to St Markella's because the people are more welcoming.  I try and go to both, though, since they are not that far from each other at all.
Really? I stood in the doorway of St Markella's and it gave me the heebie jeebies. Probably my ecumenical demons.  Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2014, 12:56:54 AM »

Really? I stood in the doorway of St Markella's and it gave me the heebie jeebies. Probably my ecumenical demons.  Smiley

From their ecclesiastical POV, I'm worse off than you, yet I've always felt welcome at St Markella's. 
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« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2014, 12:58:42 AM »

Really? I stood in the doorway of St Markella's and it gave me the heebie jeebies. Probably my ecumenical demons.  Smiley

From their ecclesiastical POV, I'm worse off than you, yet I've always felt welcome at St Markella's.  
Oh, it definitely wasn't the people. One of the first things I noticed was a nun smiling at me.
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« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2014, 02:53:31 PM »

Really? I stood in the doorway of St Markella's and it gave me the heebie jeebies. Probably my ecumenical demons.  Smiley

From their ecclesiastical POV, I'm worse off than you, yet I've always felt welcome at St Markella's.  
Oh, it definitely wasn't the people. One of the first things I noticed was a nun smiling at me.

Was she really tiny? That's probably Sister Irene Chrysovalantou (ironic name, I know). She is amazing; I have never known anyone as hard-working. The other nuns are awesome, too, though.
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« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2014, 03:07:06 PM »

Really? I stood in the doorway of St Markella's and it gave me the heebie jeebies. Probably my ecumenical demons.  Smiley

From their ecclesiastical POV, I'm worse off than you, yet I've always felt welcome at St Markella's.  
Oh, it definitely wasn't the people. One of the first things I noticed was a nun smiling at me.

Was she really tiny? That's probably Sister Irene Chrysovalantou (ironic name, I know). She is amazing; I have never known anyone as hard-working. The other nuns are awesome, too, though.

I like her.  Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2014, 10:03:15 PM »

I'm really sorry that I missed the replies to this thread.

St. Irene Chrysovalantou Cathedral left the canonical Orthodox Church in 1995, and in 1998, its deposed bishops went so far as to be reordained deacons, priests, and bishops of the New Calendar Church, after reportedly paying over $100,000 to the Ecumenical Patriarchate for the "honor."

In fact, they celebrated one Sunday as bishops of the Old Calendar Church, hopped on planes, went to Constantinople, and went through these blasphemous pseudo-reordinations during the week, after which they returned to St. Irene's, now redubbed a monastery, the following Sunday and served as bishops.

In 2010, the sins of these evil charlatans (Monks Paisios and Vikentios) were revealed, as they turned on each other in public.

The Blessed Metropolitan Petros, of St. Markella's, who reposed in 1997, is the subject of this book. His nephew, Metropolitan Pavlos, succeeded him from 1997-2013, when he retired for health reasons.

This book is of interest to everyone, even those who are opposed to the Old Calendar Church (i.e., the canonical Orthodox Church), because it offers historical data without bias.

I am obviously throwing out the word canonical here in opposition to another poster, because I find it quite ironic that St. Irene's is lauded as "canonical" when in fact, its "bishops" were quite UNcanonical, and we warned the Ecumenical Patriarchate about them (to no avail), and they later on were censured even by the EP for their evil...po po po, as the Greeks say....

So please everyone, Old or New Calendar alike, buy my book Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2014, 10:04:59 PM »

90 copies sold so far...if I sell 910 more, I can pay off my car!!!!
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« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2014, 10:39:32 PM »

Really? I stood in the doorway of St Markella's and it gave me the heebie jeebies. Probably my ecumenical demons.  Smiley

From their ecclesiastical POV, I'm worse off than you, yet I've always felt welcome at St Markella's.  
Oh, it definitely wasn't the people. One of the first things I noticed was a nun smiling at me.

Was she really tiny? That's probably Sister Irene Chrysovalantou (ironic name, I know). She is amazing; I have never known anyone as hard-working. The other nuns are awesome, too, though.

She stayed with Paisios after he joined the Ecumenical Patriarchate and became, err, "canonical."

After joining the EP, he stayed on the Old Calendar for 5 years...but when he switched to the New Calendar, she started to wonder why she fought for the Old Calendar and ended up abandoned by her husband (the reason she became a nun) and had doubts.

When the now "canonical" Metropolitan Paisios liturgized and instead of his human head, she saw a goat head on him, she packed her bags, walked down the street to St. Markella's, and lived happily ever after.

She was interviewed by the EP commission about what happened to her daughter (one of the victims of the satanic Paisios), after Metropolitan Paisios fled the country.

I'm only referring to him as "Metropolitan" to abide by forum rules. The GOC deposed him in 1995. We warned the EP. No one listened (or cared). It all came out eventually.
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« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2014, 11:44:44 PM »

Metropolitan Paisios, wasnt there some kind of controversy with him abusing childeren and stealing money. somethig to do with a nun finding a bag full of money, 100k or more and a pistol belinging to him and she turned it into the fbi or police? i hope im not wrong and its paisis. i know that church and have gone there and stile have relatives in NY who go there.
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« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2014, 12:11:21 AM »

Metropolitan Paisios, wasnt there some kind of controversy with him abusing childeren and stealing money. somethig to do with a nun finding a bag full of money, 100k or more and a pistol belinging to him and she turned it into the fbi or police? i hope im not wrong and its paisis. i know that church and have gone there and stile have relatives in NY who go there.

That is what I read a while back.
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« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2014, 12:12:43 AM »

Really? I stood in the doorway of St Markella's and it gave me the heebie jeebies. Probably my ecumenical demons.  Smiley

From their ecclesiastical POV, I'm worse off than you, yet I've always felt welcome at St Markella's.  
Oh, it definitely wasn't the people. One of the first things I noticed was a nun smiling at me.

Was she really tiny? That's probably Sister Irene Chrysovalantou (ironic name, I know). She is amazing; I have never known anyone as hard-working. The other nuns are awesome, too, though.

She stayed with Paisios after he joined the Ecumenical Patriarchate and became, err, "canonical."

After joining the EP, he stayed on the Old Calendar for 5 years...but when he switched to the New Calendar, she started to wonder why she fought for the Old Calendar and ended up abandoned by her husband (the reason she became a nun) and had doubts.

When the now "canonical" Metropolitan Paisios liturgized and instead of his human head, she saw a goat head on him, she packed her bags, walked down the street to St. Markella's, and lived happily ever after.

She was interviewed by the EP commission about what happened to her daughter (one of the victims of the satanic Paisios), after Metropolitan Paisios fled the country.

I'm only referring to him as "Metropolitan" to abide by forum rules. The GOC deposed him in 1995. We warned the EP. No one listened (or cared). It all came out eventually.

Are you saying the GOC knew about his way of life as it was reported some time ago?
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« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2014, 01:06:58 AM »

Really? I stood in the doorway of St Markella's and it gave me the heebie jeebies. Probably my ecumenical demons.  Smiley

From their ecclesiastical POV, I'm worse off than you, yet I've always felt welcome at St Markella's.  
Oh, it definitely wasn't the people. One of the first things I noticed was a nun smiling at me.

Was she really tiny? That's probably Sister Irene Chrysovalantou (ironic name, I know). She is amazing; I have never known anyone as hard-working. The other nuns are awesome, too, though.

She stayed with Paisios after he joined the Ecumenical Patriarchate and became, err, "canonical."

After joining the EP, he stayed on the Old Calendar for 5 years...but when he switched to the New Calendar, she started to wonder why she fought for the Old Calendar and ended up abandoned by her husband (the reason she became a nun) and had doubts.

When the now "canonical" Metropolitan Paisios liturgized and instead of his human head, she saw a goat head on him, she packed her bags, walked down the street to St. Markella's, and lived happily ever after.

She was interviewed by the EP commission about what happened to her daughter (one of the victims of the satanic Paisios), after Metropolitan Paisios fled the country.

I'm only referring to him as "Metropolitan" to abide by forum rules. The GOC deposed him in 1995. We warned the EP. No one listened (or cared). It all came out eventually.

A man's head turning into a Goat head? Sounds more like the Spanish novels I read when I was a Spanish major in college. [Shivers!]
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« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2014, 10:30:44 AM »



Are you saying the GOC knew about his way of life as it was reported some time ago?


When Fr. Paisios came to the USA in 1971, he was assigned as the chancellor to Bishop Petros at St. Markella's. Bishop Petros found a letter that Paisios received from Greece indicating that Paisios had a daughter outside of wedlock. Technically, someone who has relations outside marriage cannot be ordained a priest, although economia is used all the time on this one in our modern age. Given that he was tonsured a monk, that tends to be a "reset" in the minds of many church authorities as well. However, Bishop Petros did not trust him, so he asked him to go back to Greece.

Fr. Paisios did not take too kindly to that, and started ministering as a "freelancer" to raise money. He then built St. Irene's about 3/4 of a mile from St. Markella's.  You can literally walk from St. Markella's to St. Irene's in 7-8 minutes. He took advantage of Bishop Petros's split from the GOC Synod in 1974 (see my book for more on that) and was able to be under the archbishop, since Bishop Petros was suspended from the Synod (for not signing the Encylical of 1974).

I do not know much about how his evil ways developed, but it seems that Fr. Paisios progressed in his sin, and gained connections with a well known group of Italian businessmen engaged in territorial enterprises (I'm not going to talk about that for obvious reasons), and began at some point to increase the wantonness of his sexual proclivities. The GOC heard things, but no one ever stepped forward to make a case against him.

In 1985, the former Archbishop Auxentios was deposed for canonical wackiness and replaced with the blessed Archbishop Chrysostomos II (+2010) who cleaned up shop. He tolerated the presence of by-then Metropolitan Paisios on the Synod for reasons of unity, but they were always looking for a way to keep him in check. Metropolitan Petros of Astoria concelebrated with Metropolitan Paisios two times after his reunion with the GOC Synod in 1985...once at each cathedral...but that was it.

In 1995, Met. Paisios was one of six bishops who left the GOC over property disputes, and for no good theological reasons. 2 immediately repented and returned, 2 stayed separate, and then Paisios and Vikentios formed an independent American Synod. It fell apart, and they approached the Ecumenical Patriarchate. I was told by more than one individual that they paid the EP $100,000 to be received as bishops...that figure may account for the value of the property they handed over to the EP or it may have been a cash payment. I cannot substantiate this charge publicly, which may lead to the charge that I am posting unsubstantiated rumors, a violation of forum rules, but I will make the argument that in my capacity as a researcher/journalist, two priest sources (one in the GOC, and one in the OCA) confirmed this to me and I believe them, so I am protected from revealing my sources due to the context in which I obtained the information.

To cut to the chase, we did in fact warn the EP numerous times not to do what they were doing. No one cared. They wanted that property and they wanted to claim that they had "healed" the Old Calendar schism. That is the propaganda that was passed around. People started showing up at St. Markella's on the new calendar feast day after Met. Paisios told everyone in Astoria that there were no longer any Old Calendarists in America!

When Bishop Vikentios got mad at Met. Paisios and revealed all the dirty details he could in a public fight reminiscent of a breakup, it led to everything unraveling and the nun (a different nun) going to the police with the suitcase full of gold coins and cash totaling $500,000. People came forth and reported that Met. Paisios had done horrible sexual things. They tried to punish Bp. Vikentios by making him Metropolitan of Imbros and Tenedos (which if anyone knows anything about that island, is one where the Turks routinely firebomb cemeteries and attack the churches on the island--sounds like the EP was hoping he would get "taken care of" if sent there...)  All of this is so disgusting and sickening. And it could have ALL been avoided.
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« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2014, 12:08:43 PM »



Are you saying the GOC knew about his way of life as it was reported some time ago?


When Fr. Paisios came to the USA in 1971, he was assigned as the chancellor to Bishop Petros at St. Markella's. Bishop Petros found a letter that Paisios received from Greece indicating that Paisios had a daughter outside of wedlock. Technically, someone who has relations outside marriage cannot be ordained a priest, although economia is used all the time on this one in our modern age. Given that he was tonsured a monk, that tends to be a "reset" in the minds of many church authorities as well. However, Bishop Petros did not trust him, so he asked him to go back to Greece.

Fr. Paisios did not take too kindly to that, and started ministering as a "freelancer" to raise money. He then built St. Irene's about 3/4 of a mile from St. Markella's.  You can literally walk from St. Markella's to St. Irene's in 7-8 minutes. He took advantage of Bishop Petros's split from the GOC Synod in 1974 (see my book for more on that) and was able to be under the archbishop, since Bishop Petros was suspended from the Synod (for not signing the Encylical of 1974).

I do not know much about how his evil ways developed, but it seems that Fr. Paisios progressed in his sin, and gained connections with a well known group of Italian businessmen engaged in territorial enterprises (I'm not going to talk about that for obvious reasons), and began at some point to increase the wantonness of his sexual proclivities. The GOC heard things, but no one ever stepped forward to make a case against him.

In 1985, the former Archbishop Auxentios was deposed for canonical wackiness and replaced with the blessed Archbishop Chrysostomos II (+2010) who cleaned up shop. He tolerated the presence of by-then Metropolitan Paisios on the Synod for reasons of unity, but they were always looking for a way to keep him in check. Metropolitan Petros of Astoria concelebrated with Metropolitan Paisios two times after his reunion with the GOC Synod in 1985...once at each cathedral...but that was it.

In 1995, Met. Paisios was one of six bishops who left the GOC over property disputes, and for no good theological reasons. 2 immediately repented and returned, 2 stayed separate, and then Paisios and Vikentios formed an independent American Synod. It fell apart, and they approached the Ecumenical Patriarchate. I was told by more than one individual that they paid the EP $100,000 to be received as bishops...that figure may account for the value of the property they handed over to the EP or it may have been a cash payment. I cannot substantiate this charge publicly, which may lead to the charge that I am posting unsubstantiated rumors, a violation of forum rules, but I will make the argument that in my capacity as a researcher/journalist, two priest sources (one in the GOC, and one in the OCA) confirmed this to me and I believe them, so I am protected from revealing my sources due to the context in which I obtained the information.

To cut to the chase, we did in fact warn the EP numerous times not to do what they were doing. No one cared. They wanted that property and they wanted to claim that they had "healed" the Old Calendar schism. That is the propaganda that was passed around. People started showing up at St. Markella's on the new calendar feast day after Met. Paisios told everyone in Astoria that there were no longer any Old Calendarists in America!

When Bishop Vikentios got mad at Met. Paisios and revealed all the dirty details he could in a public fight reminiscent of a breakup, it led to everything unraveling and the nun (a different nun) going to the police with the suitcase full of gold coins and cash totaling $500,000. People came forth and reported that Met. Paisios had done horrible sexual things. They tried to punish Bp. Vikentios by making him Metropolitan of Imbros and Tenedos (which if anyone knows anything about that island, is one where the Turks routinely firebomb cemeteries and attack the churches on the island--sounds like the EP was hoping he would get "taken care of" if sent there...)  All of this is so disgusting and sickening. And it could have ALL been avoided.

Met Paisios was a bishop of your synod for sixteen years, and a priest for many years before that, yet nothing was ever done about him.  Were there no formal accusations against him while he was with your Synod?  Did Met Petros not know or report anything to the Synod?  Or, were formal accusations made but ignored by your Synod? 

You mentioned about Met Paisios and Vikentios' reception by the EP that "we did in fact warn the EP numerous times".  Who is "we" and what exactly was the nature of the warning?  It seems that if something serious was known at that time then why wasn't this same information given to your Synod before their departure so that they could be tried and properly disciplined?  If your Synod did not see fit to discipline them in the entire time they were with your Synod, and Met Paisios and Vikentios left your Synod of their own free will without being deposed, I'm not sure why the EP would take seriously any warnings from your Synod about them, unless very serious information all of a sudden came out in the interval between their departure from your Synod and reception by the EP.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 12:20:43 PM by jah777 » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2014, 12:28:44 PM »



Are you saying the GOC knew about his way of life as it was reported some time ago?


When Fr. Paisios came to the USA in 1971, he was assigned as the chancellor to Bishop Petros at St. Markella's. Bishop Petros found a letter that Paisios received from Greece indicating that Paisios had a daughter outside of wedlock. Technically, someone who has relations outside marriage cannot be ordained a priest, although economia is used all the time on this one in our modern age. Given that he was tonsured a monk, that tends to be a "reset" in the minds of many church authorities as well. However, Bishop Petros did not trust him, so he asked him to go back to Greece.

Fr. Paisios did not take too kindly to that, and started ministering as a "freelancer" to raise money. He then built St. Irene's about 3/4 of a mile from St. Markella's.  You can literally walk from St. Markella's to St. Irene's in 7-8 minutes. He took advantage of Bishop Petros's split from the GOC Synod in 1974 (see my book for more on that) and was able to be under the archbishop, since Bishop Petros was suspended from the Synod (for not signing the Encylical of 1974).

I do not know much about how his evil ways developed, but it seems that Fr. Paisios progressed in his sin, and gained connections with a well known group of Italian businessmen engaged in territorial enterprises (I'm not going to talk about that for obvious reasons), and began at some point to increase the wantonness of his sexual proclivities. The GOC heard things, but no one ever stepped forward to make a case against him.

In 1985, the former Archbishop Auxentios was deposed for canonical wackiness and replaced with the blessed Archbishop Chrysostomos II (+2010) who cleaned up shop. He tolerated the presence of by-then Metropolitan Paisios on the Synod for reasons of unity, but they were always looking for a way to keep him in check. Metropolitan Petros of Astoria concelebrated with Metropolitan Paisios two times after his reunion with the GOC Synod in 1985...once at each cathedral...but that was it.

In 1995, Met. Paisios was one of six bishops who left the GOC over property disputes, and for no good theological reasons. 2 immediately repented and returned, 2 stayed separate, and then Paisios and Vikentios formed an independent American Synod. It fell apart, and they approached the Ecumenical Patriarchate. I was told by more than one individual that they paid the EP $100,000 to be received as bishops...that figure may account for the value of the property they handed over to the EP or it may have been a cash payment. I cannot substantiate this charge publicly, which may lead to the charge that I am posting unsubstantiated rumors, a violation of forum rules, but I will make the argument that in my capacity as a researcher/journalist, two priest sources (one in the GOC, and one in the OCA) confirmed this to me and I believe them, so I am protected from revealing my sources due to the context in which I obtained the information.

To cut to the chase, we did in fact warn the EP numerous times not to do what they were doing. No one cared. They wanted that property and they wanted to claim that they had "healed" the Old Calendar schism. That is the propaganda that was passed around. People started showing up at St. Markella's on the new calendar feast day after Met. Paisios told everyone in Astoria that there were no longer any Old Calendarists in America!

When Bishop Vikentios got mad at Met. Paisios and revealed all the dirty details he could in a public fight reminiscent of a breakup, it led to everything unraveling and the nun (a different nun) going to the police with the suitcase full of gold coins and cash totaling $500,000. People came forth and reported that Met. Paisios had done horrible sexual things. They tried to punish Bp. Vikentios by making him Metropolitan of Imbros and Tenedos (which if anyone knows anything about that island, is one where the Turks routinely firebomb cemeteries and attack the churches on the island--sounds like the EP was hoping he would get "taken care of" if sent there...)  All of this is so disgusting and sickening. And it could have ALL been avoided.

Met Paisios was a bishop of your synod for sixteen years, and a priest for many years before that, yet nothing was ever done about him.  Were there no formal accusations against him while he was with your Synod?  Did Met Petros not know or report anything to the Synod?  Or, were formal accusations made but ignored by your Synod? 

You mentioned about Met Paisios and Vikentios' reception by the EP that "we did in fact warn the EP numerous times".  Who is "we" and what exactly was the nature of the warning?  It seems that if something serious was known at that time then why wasn't this same information given to your Synod before their departure so that they could be tried and properly disciplined?  If your Synod did not see fit to discipline them in the entire time they were with your Synod, and Met Paisios and Vikentios left your Synod of their own free will without being deposed, I'm not sure why the EP would take seriously any warnings from your Synod about them, unless very serious information all of a sudden came out in the interval between their departure from your Synod and reception by the EP.

Read the book and you'll find many of your questions answered.
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jah777
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« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2014, 12:33:40 PM »



Are you saying the GOC knew about his way of life as it was reported some time ago?


When Fr. Paisios came to the USA in 1971, he was assigned as the chancellor to Bishop Petros at St. Markella's. Bishop Petros found a letter that Paisios received from Greece indicating that Paisios had a daughter outside of wedlock. Technically, someone who has relations outside marriage cannot be ordained a priest, although economia is used all the time on this one in our modern age. Given that he was tonsured a monk, that tends to be a "reset" in the minds of many church authorities as well. However, Bishop Petros did not trust him, so he asked him to go back to Greece.

Fr. Paisios did not take too kindly to that, and started ministering as a "freelancer" to raise money. He then built St. Irene's about 3/4 of a mile from St. Markella's.  You can literally walk from St. Markella's to St. Irene's in 7-8 minutes. He took advantage of Bishop Petros's split from the GOC Synod in 1974 (see my book for more on that) and was able to be under the archbishop, since Bishop Petros was suspended from the Synod (for not signing the Encylical of 1974).

I do not know much about how his evil ways developed, but it seems that Fr. Paisios progressed in his sin, and gained connections with a well known group of Italian businessmen engaged in territorial enterprises (I'm not going to talk about that for obvious reasons), and began at some point to increase the wantonness of his sexual proclivities. The GOC heard things, but no one ever stepped forward to make a case against him.

In 1985, the former Archbishop Auxentios was deposed for canonical wackiness and replaced with the blessed Archbishop Chrysostomos II (+2010) who cleaned up shop. He tolerated the presence of by-then Metropolitan Paisios on the Synod for reasons of unity, but they were always looking for a way to keep him in check. Metropolitan Petros of Astoria concelebrated with Metropolitan Paisios two times after his reunion with the GOC Synod in 1985...once at each cathedral...but that was it.

In 1995, Met. Paisios was one of six bishops who left the GOC over property disputes, and for no good theological reasons. 2 immediately repented and returned, 2 stayed separate, and then Paisios and Vikentios formed an independent American Synod. It fell apart, and they approached the Ecumenical Patriarchate. I was told by more than one individual that they paid the EP $100,000 to be received as bishops...that figure may account for the value of the property they handed over to the EP or it may have been a cash payment. I cannot substantiate this charge publicly, which may lead to the charge that I am posting unsubstantiated rumors, a violation of forum rules, but I will make the argument that in my capacity as a researcher/journalist, two priest sources (one in the GOC, and one in the OCA) confirmed this to me and I believe them, so I am protected from revealing my sources due to the context in which I obtained the information.

To cut to the chase, we did in fact warn the EP numerous times not to do what they were doing. No one cared. They wanted that property and they wanted to claim that they had "healed" the Old Calendar schism. That is the propaganda that was passed around. People started showing up at St. Markella's on the new calendar feast day after Met. Paisios told everyone in Astoria that there were no longer any Old Calendarists in America!

When Bishop Vikentios got mad at Met. Paisios and revealed all the dirty details he could in a public fight reminiscent of a breakup, it led to everything unraveling and the nun (a different nun) going to the police with the suitcase full of gold coins and cash totaling $500,000. People came forth and reported that Met. Paisios had done horrible sexual things. They tried to punish Bp. Vikentios by making him Metropolitan of Imbros and Tenedos (which if anyone knows anything about that island, is one where the Turks routinely firebomb cemeteries and attack the churches on the island--sounds like the EP was hoping he would get "taken care of" if sent there...)  All of this is so disgusting and sickening. And it could have ALL been avoided.

Met Paisios was a bishop of your synod for sixteen years, and a priest for many years before that, yet nothing was ever done about him.  Were there no formal accusations against him while he was with your Synod?  Did Met Petros not know or report anything to the Synod?  Or, were formal accusations made but ignored by your Synod? 

You mentioned about Met Paisios and Vikentios' reception by the EP that "we did in fact warn the EP numerous times".  Who is "we" and what exactly was the nature of the warning?  It seems that if something serious was known at that time then why wasn't this same information given to your Synod before their departure so that they could be tried and properly disciplined?  If your Synod did not see fit to discipline them in the entire time they were with your Synod, and Met Paisios and Vikentios left your Synod of their own free will without being deposed, I'm not sure why the EP would take seriously any warnings from your Synod about them, unless very serious information all of a sudden came out in the interval between their departure from your Synod and reception by the EP.

Read the book and you'll find many of your questions answered.

Are these questions that I have asked answered in the book?  Also, how it makes sense for the only three bishops of your synod in the US to be all located a few blocks from one another?  Is this also addressed?
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« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2014, 12:39:27 PM »



Are you saying the GOC knew about his way of life as it was reported some time ago?


When Fr. Paisios came to the USA in 1971, he was assigned as the chancellor to Bishop Petros at St. Markella's. Bishop Petros found a letter that Paisios received from Greece indicating that Paisios had a daughter outside of wedlock. Technically, someone who has relations outside marriage cannot be ordained a priest, although economia is used all the time on this one in our modern age. Given that he was tonsured a monk, that tends to be a "reset" in the minds of many church authorities as well. However, Bishop Petros did not trust him, so he asked him to go back to Greece.

Fr. Paisios did not take too kindly to that, and started ministering as a "freelancer" to raise money. He then built St. Irene's about 3/4 of a mile from St. Markella's.  You can literally walk from St. Markella's to St. Irene's in 7-8 minutes. He took advantage of Bishop Petros's split from the GOC Synod in 1974 (see my book for more on that) and was able to be under the archbishop, since Bishop Petros was suspended from the Synod (for not signing the Encylical of 1974).

I do not know much about how his evil ways developed, but it seems that Fr. Paisios progressed in his sin, and gained connections with a well known group of Italian businessmen engaged in territorial enterprises (I'm not going to talk about that for obvious reasons), and began at some point to increase the wantonness of his sexual proclivities. The GOC heard things, but no one ever stepped forward to make a case against him.

In 1985, the former Archbishop Auxentios was deposed for canonical wackiness and replaced with the blessed Archbishop Chrysostomos II (+2010) who cleaned up shop. He tolerated the presence of by-then Metropolitan Paisios on the Synod for reasons of unity, but they were always looking for a way to keep him in check. Metropolitan Petros of Astoria concelebrated with Metropolitan Paisios two times after his reunion with the GOC Synod in 1985...once at each cathedral...but that was it.

In 1995, Met. Paisios was one of six bishops who left the GOC over property disputes, and for no good theological reasons. 2 immediately repented and returned, 2 stayed separate, and then Paisios and Vikentios formed an independent American Synod. It fell apart, and they approached the Ecumenical Patriarchate. I was told by more than one individual that they paid the EP $100,000 to be received as bishops...that figure may account for the value of the property they handed over to the EP or it may have been a cash payment. I cannot substantiate this charge publicly, which may lead to the charge that I am posting unsubstantiated rumors, a violation of forum rules, but I will make the argument that in my capacity as a researcher/journalist, two priest sources (one in the GOC, and one in the OCA) confirmed this to me and I believe them, so I am protected from revealing my sources due to the context in which I obtained the information.

To cut to the chase, we did in fact warn the EP numerous times not to do what they were doing. No one cared. They wanted that property and they wanted to claim that they had "healed" the Old Calendar schism. That is the propaganda that was passed around. People started showing up at St. Markella's on the new calendar feast day after Met. Paisios told everyone in Astoria that there were no longer any Old Calendarists in America!

When Bishop Vikentios got mad at Met. Paisios and revealed all the dirty details he could in a public fight reminiscent of a breakup, it led to everything unraveling and the nun (a different nun) going to the police with the suitcase full of gold coins and cash totaling $500,000. People came forth and reported that Met. Paisios had done horrible sexual things. They tried to punish Bp. Vikentios by making him Metropolitan of Imbros and Tenedos (which if anyone knows anything about that island, is one where the Turks routinely firebomb cemeteries and attack the churches on the island--sounds like the EP was hoping he would get "taken care of" if sent there...)  All of this is so disgusting and sickening. And it could have ALL been avoided.

Met Paisios was a bishop of your synod for sixteen years, and a priest for many years before that, yet nothing was ever done about him.  Were there no formal accusations against him while he was with your Synod?  Did Met Petros not know or report anything to the Synod?  Or, were formal accusations made but ignored by your Synod? 

You mentioned about Met Paisios and Vikentios' reception by the EP that "we did in fact warn the EP numerous times".  Who is "we" and what exactly was the nature of the warning?  It seems that if something serious was known at that time then why wasn't this same information given to your Synod before their departure so that they could be tried and properly disciplined?  If your Synod did not see fit to discipline them in the entire time they were with your Synod, and Met Paisios and Vikentios left your Synod of their own free will without being deposed, I'm not sure why the EP would take seriously any warnings from your Synod about them, unless very serious information all of a sudden came out in the interval between their departure from your Synod and reception by the EP.

Read the book and you'll find many of your questions answered.

Are these questions that I have asked answered in the book?  Also, how it makes sense for the only three bishops of your synod in the US to be all located a few blocks from one another?  Is this also addressed?

Yes, it doesn't, yes
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« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2014, 12:40:50 PM »

Met Petros was not in the GOC synod at the time that Met Paisios was in it, for reasons that are discussed in the book.
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jah777
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« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2014, 12:41:45 PM »



Are you saying the GOC knew about his way of life as it was reported some time ago?


When Fr. Paisios came to the USA in 1971, he was assigned as the chancellor to Bishop Petros at St. Markella's. Bishop Petros found a letter that Paisios received from Greece indicating that Paisios had a daughter outside of wedlock. Technically, someone who has relations outside marriage cannot be ordained a priest, although economia is used all the time on this one in our modern age. Given that he was tonsured a monk, that tends to be a "reset" in the minds of many church authorities as well. However, Bishop Petros did not trust him, so he asked him to go back to Greece.

Fr. Paisios did not take too kindly to that, and started ministering as a "freelancer" to raise money. He then built St. Irene's about 3/4 of a mile from St. Markella's.  You can literally walk from St. Markella's to St. Irene's in 7-8 minutes. He took advantage of Bishop Petros's split from the GOC Synod in 1974 (see my book for more on that) and was able to be under the archbishop, since Bishop Petros was suspended from the Synod (for not signing the Encylical of 1974).

I do not know much about how his evil ways developed, but it seems that Fr. Paisios progressed in his sin, and gained connections with a well known group of Italian businessmen engaged in territorial enterprises (I'm not going to talk about that for obvious reasons), and began at some point to increase the wantonness of his sexual proclivities. The GOC heard things, but no one ever stepped forward to make a case against him.

In 1985, the former Archbishop Auxentios was deposed for canonical wackiness and replaced with the blessed Archbishop Chrysostomos II (+2010) who cleaned up shop. He tolerated the presence of by-then Metropolitan Paisios on the Synod for reasons of unity, but they were always looking for a way to keep him in check. Metropolitan Petros of Astoria concelebrated with Metropolitan Paisios two times after his reunion with the GOC Synod in 1985...once at each cathedral...but that was it.

In 1995, Met. Paisios was one of six bishops who left the GOC over property disputes, and for no good theological reasons. 2 immediately repented and returned, 2 stayed separate, and then Paisios and Vikentios formed an independent American Synod. It fell apart, and they approached the Ecumenical Patriarchate. I was told by more than one individual that they paid the EP $100,000 to be received as bishops...that figure may account for the value of the property they handed over to the EP or it may have been a cash payment. I cannot substantiate this charge publicly, which may lead to the charge that I am posting unsubstantiated rumors, a violation of forum rules, but I will make the argument that in my capacity as a researcher/journalist, two priest sources (one in the GOC, and one in the OCA) confirmed this to me and I believe them, so I am protected from revealing my sources due to the context in which I obtained the information.

To cut to the chase, we did in fact warn the EP numerous times not to do what they were doing. No one cared. They wanted that property and they wanted to claim that they had "healed" the Old Calendar schism. That is the propaganda that was passed around. People started showing up at St. Markella's on the new calendar feast day after Met. Paisios told everyone in Astoria that there were no longer any Old Calendarists in America!

When Bishop Vikentios got mad at Met. Paisios and revealed all the dirty details he could in a public fight reminiscent of a breakup, it led to everything unraveling and the nun (a different nun) going to the police with the suitcase full of gold coins and cash totaling $500,000. People came forth and reported that Met. Paisios had done horrible sexual things. They tried to punish Bp. Vikentios by making him Metropolitan of Imbros and Tenedos (which if anyone knows anything about that island, is one where the Turks routinely firebomb cemeteries and attack the churches on the island--sounds like the EP was hoping he would get "taken care of" if sent there...)  All of this is so disgusting and sickening. And it could have ALL been avoided.

Met Paisios was a bishop of your synod for sixteen years, and a priest for many years before that, yet nothing was ever done about him.  Were there no formal accusations against him while he was with your Synod?  Did Met Petros not know or report anything to the Synod?  Or, were formal accusations made but ignored by your Synod? 

You mentioned about Met Paisios and Vikentios' reception by the EP that "we did in fact warn the EP numerous times".  Who is "we" and what exactly was the nature of the warning?  It seems that if something serious was known at that time then why wasn't this same information given to your Synod before their departure so that they could be tried and properly disciplined?  If your Synod did not see fit to discipline them in the entire time they were with your Synod, and Met Paisios and Vikentios left your Synod of their own free will without being deposed, I'm not sure why the EP would take seriously any warnings from your Synod about them, unless very serious information all of a sudden came out in the interval between their departure from your Synod and reception by the EP.

Read the book and you'll find many of your questions answered.

Are these questions that I have asked answered in the book?  Also, how it makes sense for the only three bishops of your synod in the US to be all located a few blocks from one another?  Is this also addressed?

Yes, it doesn't, yes

Did you mean "yes, it does"?
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« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2014, 12:42:24 PM »



Are you saying the GOC knew about his way of life as it was reported some time ago?


When Fr. Paisios came to the USA in 1971, he was assigned as the chancellor to Bishop Petros at St. Markella's. Bishop Petros found a letter that Paisios received from Greece indicating that Paisios had a daughter outside of wedlock. Technically, someone who has relations outside marriage cannot be ordained a priest, although economia is used all the time on this one in our modern age. Given that he was tonsured a monk, that tends to be a "reset" in the minds of many church authorities as well. However, Bishop Petros did not trust him, so he asked him to go back to Greece.

Fr. Paisios did not take too kindly to that, and started ministering as a "freelancer" to raise money. He then built St. Irene's about 3/4 of a mile from St. Markella's.  You can literally walk from St. Markella's to St. Irene's in 7-8 minutes. He took advantage of Bishop Petros's split from the GOC Synod in 1974 (see my book for more on that) and was able to be under the archbishop, since Bishop Petros was suspended from the Synod (for not signing the Encylical of 1974).

I do not know much about how his evil ways developed, but it seems that Fr. Paisios progressed in his sin, and gained connections with a well known group of Italian businessmen engaged in territorial enterprises (I'm not going to talk about that for obvious reasons), and began at some point to increase the wantonness of his sexual proclivities. The GOC heard things, but no one ever stepped forward to make a case against him.

In 1985, the former Archbishop Auxentios was deposed for canonical wackiness and replaced with the blessed Archbishop Chrysostomos II (+2010) who cleaned up shop. He tolerated the presence of by-then Metropolitan Paisios on the Synod for reasons of unity, but they were always looking for a way to keep him in check. Metropolitan Petros of Astoria concelebrated with Metropolitan Paisios two times after his reunion with the GOC Synod in 1985...once at each cathedral...but that was it.

In 1995, Met. Paisios was one of six bishops who left the GOC over property disputes, and for no good theological reasons. 2 immediately repented and returned, 2 stayed separate, and then Paisios and Vikentios formed an independent American Synod. It fell apart, and they approached the Ecumenical Patriarchate. I was told by more than one individual that they paid the EP $100,000 to be received as bishops...that figure may account for the value of the property they handed over to the EP or it may have been a cash payment. I cannot substantiate this charge publicly, which may lead to the charge that I am posting unsubstantiated rumors, a violation of forum rules, but I will make the argument that in my capacity as a researcher/journalist, two priest sources (one in the GOC, and one in the OCA) confirmed this to me and I believe them, so I am protected from revealing my sources due to the context in which I obtained the information.

To cut to the chase, we did in fact warn the EP numerous times not to do what they were doing. No one cared. They wanted that property and they wanted to claim that they had "healed" the Old Calendar schism. That is the propaganda that was passed around. People started showing up at St. Markella's on the new calendar feast day after Met. Paisios told everyone in Astoria that there were no longer any Old Calendarists in America!

When Bishop Vikentios got mad at Met. Paisios and revealed all the dirty details he could in a public fight reminiscent of a breakup, it led to everything unraveling and the nun (a different nun) going to the police with the suitcase full of gold coins and cash totaling $500,000. People came forth and reported that Met. Paisios had done horrible sexual things. They tried to punish Bp. Vikentios by making him Metropolitan of Imbros and Tenedos (which if anyone knows anything about that island, is one where the Turks routinely firebomb cemeteries and attack the churches on the island--sounds like the EP was hoping he would get "taken care of" if sent there...)  All of this is so disgusting and sickening. And it could have ALL been avoided.

Met Paisios was a bishop of your synod for sixteen years, and a priest for many years before that, yet nothing was ever done about him.  Were there no formal accusations against him while he was with your Synod?  Did Met Petros not know or report anything to the Synod?  Or, were formal accusations made but ignored by your Synod? 

You mentioned about Met Paisios and Vikentios' reception by the EP that "we did in fact warn the EP numerous times".  Who is "we" and what exactly was the nature of the warning?  It seems that if something serious was known at that time then why wasn't this same information given to your Synod before their departure so that they could be tried and properly disciplined?  If your Synod did not see fit to discipline them in the entire time they were with your Synod, and Met Paisios and Vikentios left your Synod of their own free will without being deposed, I'm not sure why the EP would take seriously any warnings from your Synod about them, unless very serious information all of a sudden came out in the interval between their departure from your Synod and reception by the EP.

Read the book and you'll find many of your questions answered.

Are these questions that I have asked answered in the book?  Also, how it makes sense for the only three bishops of your synod in the US to be all located a few blocks from one another?  Is this also addressed?

Yes, it doesn't, yes

Did you mean "yes, it does"?

No.

Look, just read the book.
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jah777
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« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2014, 12:51:43 PM »



Are you saying the GOC knew about his way of life as it was reported some time ago?


When Fr. Paisios came to the USA in 1971, he was assigned as the chancellor to Bishop Petros at St. Markella's. Bishop Petros found a letter that Paisios received from Greece indicating that Paisios had a daughter outside of wedlock. Technically, someone who has relations outside marriage cannot be ordained a priest, although economia is used all the time on this one in our modern age. Given that he was tonsured a monk, that tends to be a "reset" in the minds of many church authorities as well. However, Bishop Petros did not trust him, so he asked him to go back to Greece.

Fr. Paisios did not take too kindly to that, and started ministering as a "freelancer" to raise money. He then built St. Irene's about 3/4 of a mile from St. Markella's.  You can literally walk from St. Markella's to St. Irene's in 7-8 minutes. He took advantage of Bishop Petros's split from the GOC Synod in 1974 (see my book for more on that) and was able to be under the archbishop, since Bishop Petros was suspended from the Synod (for not signing the Encylical of 1974).

I do not know much about how his evil ways developed, but it seems that Fr. Paisios progressed in his sin, and gained connections with a well known group of Italian businessmen engaged in territorial enterprises (I'm not going to talk about that for obvious reasons), and began at some point to increase the wantonness of his sexual proclivities. The GOC heard things, but no one ever stepped forward to make a case against him.

In 1985, the former Archbishop Auxentios was deposed for canonical wackiness and replaced with the blessed Archbishop Chrysostomos II (+2010) who cleaned up shop. He tolerated the presence of by-then Metropolitan Paisios on the Synod for reasons of unity, but they were always looking for a way to keep him in check. Metropolitan Petros of Astoria concelebrated with Metropolitan Paisios two times after his reunion with the GOC Synod in 1985...once at each cathedral...but that was it.

In 1995, Met. Paisios was one of six bishops who left the GOC over property disputes, and for no good theological reasons. 2 immediately repented and returned, 2 stayed separate, and then Paisios and Vikentios formed an independent American Synod. It fell apart, and they approached the Ecumenical Patriarchate. I was told by more than one individual that they paid the EP $100,000 to be received as bishops...that figure may account for the value of the property they handed over to the EP or it may have been a cash payment. I cannot substantiate this charge publicly, which may lead to the charge that I am posting unsubstantiated rumors, a violation of forum rules, but I will make the argument that in my capacity as a researcher/journalist, two priest sources (one in the GOC, and one in the OCA) confirmed this to me and I believe them, so I am protected from revealing my sources due to the context in which I obtained the information.

To cut to the chase, we did in fact warn the EP numerous times not to do what they were doing. No one cared. They wanted that property and they wanted to claim that they had "healed" the Old Calendar schism. That is the propaganda that was passed around. People started showing up at St. Markella's on the new calendar feast day after Met. Paisios told everyone in Astoria that there were no longer any Old Calendarists in America!

When Bishop Vikentios got mad at Met. Paisios and revealed all the dirty details he could in a public fight reminiscent of a breakup, it led to everything unraveling and the nun (a different nun) going to the police with the suitcase full of gold coins and cash totaling $500,000. People came forth and reported that Met. Paisios had done horrible sexual things. They tried to punish Bp. Vikentios by making him Metropolitan of Imbros and Tenedos (which if anyone knows anything about that island, is one where the Turks routinely firebomb cemeteries and attack the churches on the island--sounds like the EP was hoping he would get "taken care of" if sent there...)  All of this is so disgusting and sickening. And it could have ALL been avoided.

Met Paisios was a bishop of your synod for sixteen years, and a priest for many years before that, yet nothing was ever done about him.  Were there no formal accusations against him while he was with your Synod?  Did Met Petros not know or report anything to the Synod?  Or, were formal accusations made but ignored by your Synod? 

You mentioned about Met Paisios and Vikentios' reception by the EP that "we did in fact warn the EP numerous times".  Who is "we" and what exactly was the nature of the warning?  It seems that if something serious was known at that time then why wasn't this same information given to your Synod before their departure so that they could be tried and properly disciplined?  If your Synod did not see fit to discipline them in the entire time they were with your Synod, and Met Paisios and Vikentios left your Synod of their own free will without being deposed, I'm not sure why the EP would take seriously any warnings from your Synod about them, unless very serious information all of a sudden came out in the interval between their departure from your Synod and reception by the EP.

Read the book and you'll find many of your questions answered.

Are these questions that I have asked answered in the book?  Also, how it makes sense for the only three bishops of your synod in the US to be all located a few blocks from one another?  Is this also addressed?

Yes, it doesn't, yes

Did you mean "yes, it does"?

No.

Look, just read the book.

I plan to read it, I just haven't purchased it yet.  Since Anastasios was seemingly trying to clarify some things about Met Paisios and Vikentios in this thread, I thought it might be okay for me to follow up with a few questions for further clarity.  If all of my questions are answered in the book then that's great. 

Met Petros was not in the GOC synod at the time that Met Paisios was in it, for reasons that are discussed in the book.

I thought Met Paisios and Met Petros were part of the same Synod at least from 1985 - 1995.  If this isn't correct, I will read the book to learn more if you and Anastasios do not want to answer these questions in this thread.
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« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2014, 11:37:13 PM »


Met Paisios was a bishop of your synod for sixteen years, and a priest for many years before that, yet nothing was ever done about him.  Were there no formal accusations against him while he was with your Synod?  Did Met Petros not know or report anything to the Synod?  Or, were formal accusations made but ignored by your Synod? 

Correct--no one ever stepped forward to make a formal complaint. There was no one willing to make a testimony against him in an ecclesiastical court. Probably because of his "Italian businessmen" connections. When the icon was allegedly stolen in 1990-1991, John Gotti himself went on TV and demanded that it be returned to St. Irene's. P and V were very dangerous people.

Quote
You mentioned about Met Paisios and Vikentios' reception by the EP that "we did in fact warn the EP numerous times".  Who is "we" and what exactly was the nature of the warning?  It seems that if something serious was known at that time then why wasn't this same information given to your Synod before their departure so that they could be tried and properly disciplined?  If your Synod did not see fit to discipline them in the entire time they were with your Synod, and Met Paisios and Vikentios left your Synod of their own free will without being deposed, I'm not sure why the EP would take seriously any warnings from your Synod about them, unless very serious information all of a sudden came out in the interval between their departure from your Synod and reception by the EP.

They were deposed in 1995 by our Synod. They joined the EP in 1998. "we" refers to the GOC in general. There are multiple levels of contact between our bishops and the EP bishops. Our suspicions were passed along. The EP knew about it. These people had a bad reputation--including public court testimony where they claimed the stolen icon was worth 1 billion dollars and thrown out of court by the judge (you can find that online if you look hard enough). In the Orthodox Church, SUSPICION of evil is reason enough not to ordain someone. You don't need hard proof. Our suspicions were forwarded on to the EP, to no avail.
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« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2014, 11:56:27 PM »


Met Paisios was a bishop of your synod for sixteen years, and a priest for many years before that, yet nothing was ever done about him.  Were there no formal accusations against him while he was with your Synod?  Did Met Petros not know or report anything to the Synod?  Or, were formal accusations made but ignored by your Synod? 

Correct--no one ever stepped forward to make a formal complaint. There was no one willing to make a testimony against him in an ecclesiastical court. Probably because of his "Italian businessmen" connections. When the icon was allegedly stolen in 1990-1991, John Gotti himself went on TV and demanded that it be returned to St. Irene's. P and V were very dangerous people.

Quote
You mentioned about Met Paisios and Vikentios' reception by the EP that "we did in fact warn the EP numerous times".  Who is "we" and what exactly was the nature of the warning?  It seems that if something serious was known at that time then why wasn't this same information given to your Synod before their departure so that they could be tried and properly disciplined?  If your Synod did not see fit to discipline them in the entire time they were with your Synod, and Met Paisios and Vikentios left your Synod of their own free will without being deposed, I'm not sure why the EP would take seriously any warnings from your Synod about them, unless very serious information all of a sudden came out in the interval between their departure from your Synod and reception by the EP.

They were deposed in 1995 by our Synod. They joined the EP in 1998. "we" refers to the GOC in general. There are multiple levels of contact between our bishops and the EP bishops. Our suspicions were passed along. The EP knew about it. These people had a bad reputation--including public court testimony where they claimed the stolen icon was worth 1 billion dollars and thrown out of court by the judge (you can find that online if you look hard enough). In the Orthodox Church, SUSPICION of evil is reason enough not to ordain someone. You don't need hard proof. Our suspicions were forwarded on to the EP, to no avail.

Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2014, 08:05:49 AM »

Met Paisios was a bishop of your synod for sixteen years, and a priest for many years before that, yet nothing was ever done about him.  Were there no formal accusations against him while he was with your Synod?  Did Met Petros not know or report anything to the Synod?  Or, were formal accusations made but ignored by your Synod? 

Correct--no one ever stepped forward to make a formal complaint. There was no one willing to make a testimony against him in an ecclesiastical court. Probably because of his "Italian businessmen" connections. When the icon was allegedly stolen in 1990-1991, John Gotti himself went on TV and demanded that it be returned to St. Irene's. P and V were very dangerous people.

But if this were the kind of information communicated to the EP, that they were "dangerous people" and that John Gotti publicly called for the return of the icon (and the church supposedly rejected his offer of help - http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1901&dat=19920328&id=WYwfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=E9MEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2726,7181193), again without "proof" that they were "dangerous" it is not too surprising that the EP would fail to act in the absence of any kind of proof.

Quote
You mentioned about Met Paisios and Vikentios' reception by the EP that "we did in fact warn the EP numerous times".  Who is "we" and what exactly was the nature of the warning?  It seems that if something serious was known at that time then why wasn't this same information given to your Synod before their departure so that they could be tried and properly disciplined?  If your Synod did not see fit to discipline them in the entire time they were with your Synod, and Met Paisios and Vikentios left your Synod of their own free will without being deposed, I'm not sure why the EP would take seriously any warnings from your Synod about them, unless very serious information all of a sudden came out in the interval between their departure from your Synod and reception by the EP.

They were deposed in 1995 by our Synod.

Were they deposed before or after they left your Synod and for what reason were they deposed?  It is one thing if they were deposed for sexual immorality, in which case the EP would be all the more blameworthy for receiving them, and quite another if they were only deposed for having left your Synod.

They joined the EP in 1998. "we" refers to the GOC in general. There are multiple levels of contact between our bishops and the EP bishops. Our suspicions were passed along. The EP knew about it.

Suspicions of what?  What did the EP know exactly? 

These people had a bad reputation--including public court testimony where they claimed the stolen icon was worth 1 billion dollars and thrown out of court by the judge (you can find that online if you look hard enough). In the Orthodox Church, SUSPICION of evil is reason enough not to ordain someone. You don't need hard proof. Our suspicions were forwarded on to the EP, to no avail.

If mere suspicions (of what?) were communicated to the EP and not substantive proof of anything, the EP may not have found reason to factor these "suspicions" into the decision to receive them.  Also, there is the issue of the source of the claims.  Since the GOC is not in communion with the EP and is quite anti-EP, it would be surprising if the EP would give very much credence to "suspicions" passed along by the GOC.  Whatever the suspicions were, there is also the possibility that the EP did investigate and failed to find convincing proof to support such suspicions. 

Without knowing anything more specific than what you have provided, it is hard to know to what extent the EP should have known better than to receive the two bishops. 

Canon 6 of the Second Ecumenical Council distinguishes between the hearing of complaints against bishops over private matters and the hearing of complaints against bishops regarding offenses of an ecclesiastical nature.  A synod is required to hear complaints from people who have been personally offended, cheated, etc. by the accused bishop regardless of the accuser's reputation or religion if those accusations are not of an "ecclesiastical nature".  However, if the accusation is of an "ecclesiastical nature", the accuser will only be heard if the accuser is a member of the Church (not in schism or heresy) with a good reputation.  Then, the accuser must agree to receive the punishment that the canons require for the bishop's alleged offense if the accusation is shown to be false. 

So, it is not enough for the GOC to communicate "suspicions".  The EP would have to be convinced that these "suspicions" are credible, and depending on the nature of the accusations or insinuations, the GOC's communication to the EP may have been disregarded altogether since they are not in communion.
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« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2014, 09:22:14 AM »

Jason, your approach here seems to be to dismiss accounts of how things actually function in the Church (because they do not follow a tight, logical, process-oriented approach?) by constructing elaborate theoretical arguments which ultimately remain just that: theoretical.

The fact that the EP and the GOC are not in communion has little to do with anything here. Like I said, there is frequent communication behind the scenes between bishops and clergy of the different jurisdictions, especially surrounding issues of reception of clergy from one to the other group.

Let me make an analogy here. It was pretty obvious that the reception of the Bondi group by ROCOR was going to blow up pretty fast to anyone who knows anything about Old Catholics and Bondi's ecclesiastical career. But there is this magic thinking that if we get the people "in" the Church, that they are going to be "fixed" or at least respect us now. So ROCOR (well, Bishop Jerome) goes into full steam ahead mode and receives all these people, it gets out of hand, and implodes. Some of those folks went right back to being Old Catholics now. It tarnished ROCOR's reputation. You don't need a formal process inquiry or a canonical hearing--you need common sense and some good judgment.

The EP showed some remarkably bad judgment in the reception of Paisios and Vikentios.
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« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2014, 11:48:54 AM »

Jason, your approach here seems to be to dismiss accounts of how things actually function in the Church (because they do not follow a tight, logical, process-oriented approach?) by constructing elaborate theoretical arguments which ultimately remain just that: theoretical.

The fact that the EP and the GOC are not in communion has little to do with anything here. Like I said, there is frequent communication behind the scenes between bishops and clergy of the different jurisdictions, especially surrounding issues of reception of clergy from one to the other group.

Let me make an analogy here. It was pretty obvious that the reception of the Bondi group by ROCOR was going to blow up pretty fast to anyone who knows anything about Old Catholics and Bondi's ecclesiastical career. But there is this magic thinking that if we get the people "in" the Church, that they are going to be "fixed" or at least respect us now. So ROCOR (well, Bishop Jerome) goes into full steam ahead mode and receives all these people, it gets out of hand, and implodes. Some of those folks went right back to being Old Catholics now. It tarnished ROCOR's reputation. You don't need a formal process inquiry or a canonical hearing--you need common sense and some good judgment.

The EP showed some remarkably bad judgment in the reception of Paisios and Vikentios.

I understand that canon 6 of the Second Ecumenical Council may not be applicable to the GOC sharing "suspicions" with the EP about the two bishops, but regarding whether and to what extent the EP should have known better than to receive Met Paisios and Vikentios, it is still unclear from the information you have provided what the EP would or should have known when receiving them, the nature of the "suspicions" that the GOC shared with the EP, what evidence the EP had to confirm or deny these suspicions, and why the EP chose to receive them despite whatever "suspicions" or rumors may have been received.  What information do you have concerning these things?     
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« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2014, 01:01:35 PM »

Jason, your approach here seems to be to dismiss accounts of how things actually function in the Church (because they do not follow a tight, logical, process-oriented approach?) by constructing elaborate theoretical arguments which ultimately remain just that: theoretical.

The fact that the EP and the GOC are not in communion has little to do with anything here. Like I said, there is frequent communication behind the scenes between bishops and clergy of the different jurisdictions, especially surrounding issues of reception of clergy from one to the other group.

Let me make an analogy here. It was pretty obvious that the reception of the Bondi group by ROCOR was going to blow up pretty fast to anyone who knows anything about Old Catholics and Bondi's ecclesiastical career. But there is this magic thinking that if we get the people "in" the Church, that they are going to be "fixed" or at least respect us now. So ROCOR (well, Bishop Jerome) goes into full steam ahead mode and receives all these people, it gets out of hand, and implodes. Some of those folks went right back to being Old Catholics now. It tarnished ROCOR's reputation. You don't need a formal process inquiry or a canonical hearing--you need common sense and some good judgment.

The EP showed some remarkably bad judgment in the reception of Paisios and Vikentios.

I understand that canon 6 of the Second Ecumenical Council may not be applicable to the GOC sharing "suspicions" with the EP about the two bishops, but regarding whether and to what extent the EP should have known better than to receive Met Paisios and Vikentios, it is still unclear from the information you have provided what the EP would or should have known when receiving them, the nature of the "suspicions" that the GOC shared with the EP, what evidence the EP had to confirm or deny these suspicions, and why the EP chose to receive them despite whatever "suspicions" or rumors may have been received.  What information do you have concerning these things?     

If "suspicion" is reason enough not to ordain, then the EP only needed the suspicion, not the proof, in order not to ordain. I thought this was straightforward enough from Anastasios' post. Yet you continue to insist that the EP should have been able to "confirm" the suspicions, i.e. prove them. Proof is only needed after ordination, when you want to depose someone.
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« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2014, 01:54:12 PM »

Jason, your approach here seems to be to dismiss accounts of how things actually function in the Church (because they do not follow a tight, logical, process-oriented approach?) by constructing elaborate theoretical arguments which ultimately remain just that: theoretical.

The fact that the EP and the GOC are not in communion has little to do with anything here. Like I said, there is frequent communication behind the scenes between bishops and clergy of the different jurisdictions, especially surrounding issues of reception of clergy from one to the other group.

Let me make an analogy here. It was pretty obvious that the reception of the Bondi group by ROCOR was going to blow up pretty fast to anyone who knows anything about Old Catholics and Bondi's ecclesiastical career. But there is this magic thinking that if we get the people "in" the Church, that they are going to be "fixed" or at least respect us now. So ROCOR (well, Bishop Jerome) goes into full steam ahead mode and receives all these people, it gets out of hand, and implodes. Some of those folks went right back to being Old Catholics now. It tarnished ROCOR's reputation. You don't need a formal process inquiry or a canonical hearing--you need common sense and some good judgment.

The EP showed some remarkably bad judgment in the reception of Paisios and Vikentios.

I understand that canon 6 of the Second Ecumenical Council may not be applicable to the GOC sharing "suspicions" with the EP about the two bishops, but regarding whether and to what extent the EP should have known better than to receive Met Paisios and Vikentios, it is still unclear from the information you have provided what the EP would or should have known when receiving them, the nature of the "suspicions" that the GOC shared with the EP, what evidence the EP had to confirm or deny these suspicions, and why the EP chose to receive them despite whatever "suspicions" or rumors may have been received.  What information do you have concerning these things?     

If "suspicion" is reason enough not to ordain, then the EP only needed the suspicion, not the proof, in order not to ordain. I thought this was straightforward enough from Anastasios' post. Yet you continue to insist that the EP should have been able to "confirm" the suspicions, i.e. prove them. Proof is only needed after ordination, when you want to depose someone.

Anastasios said:
Quote
Our suspicions were passed along. The EP knew about it.

Without saying what suspicions were passed on exactly, or what was communicated to the EP, we do not know what the EP knew when the decision was made to receive Met Paisios and Vikentios.  The EP did not have to receive these bishops.  To do so was the decision of the EP.  If a synod is suspicious of an episcopal candidate, they can decide not to receive or consecrate that candidate.  If an external party, like the GOC in this case, says to the EP that "I think this guy is bad news" or "he seems sketchy" or "I think he has ties with Italian businessmen" or "I wouldn't receive him if I were you", then the EP should have looked into these things to decide whether or not the suspicion was warranted.  I don't know what kind of investigation, if any, was done by the EP so I cannot comment on whether or not the EP  should have known better.  If the GOC did not communicate anything more to the EP than what Anastasios has expressed here, then I too would not see much of a solid basis for not receiving them, but I would want to make a careful examination first.

Since Anastasios has done the research on these subjects, he is probably the best one to explain these things.  Since he has not, I assume that much of the specifics are just not known. 

When Anastasios says:
Quote
All of this is so disgusting and sickening. And it could have ALL been avoided.

I wonder how this could have been avoided.  The answer to this depends on who knew what when.  If the GOC didn't know enough about the sexual immorality to depose Met Paisios when he was with them, how can it be assumed that the GOC communicated anything of substance to the EP on the subject? 
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« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2014, 11:12:17 PM »

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« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2014, 01:54:13 PM »

I'll pass. I'll stick to reading about Slavic church squabbles, I don't need to add Greek ones to my reading lists.  Wink
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« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2014, 10:33:18 AM »

I'll pass. I'll stick to reading about Slavic church squabbles, I don't need to add Greek ones to my reading lists.  Wink

Oh this book is full of info on the relations of Metropolitan Petros with the ROCOR and Metropolia (proto-OCA)! So please do buy the book and enjoy the Slavic angle Wink
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