Author Topic: GOA Laity in Chicago  (Read 16778 times)

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Offline TomS

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GOA Laity in Chicago
« on: May 10, 2004, 10:06:35 AM »

Power battle roils Greek Orthodox church

May 9, 2004

BY NATASHA KORECKI Staff Reporter Advertisement

If Greek Orthodox Christians hope to retain power within their church, they need to band together and demand it, church leaders said Saturday at an Oak Brook forum.

About 100 Chicago area Greek Christians met to discuss an ongoing battle over the balance of power in their church.

One of their resounding cries: Let's not let what happened to the Roman Catholics happen to us.

At the heart of the debate is whether a new charter issued in 2003 by the Greek Orthodox hierarchy could erode laity power. Unlike in previous years, the new charter was issued without the approval or feedback of lay church members in the United States and elsewhere.

Greek Orthodox Christians pride their church on the power of its lay membership.

Giving too much power to the Patriarchate in Istanbul, Turkey, is like Catholics giving too much power to Rome, they said.

Greek Christians fear they would lose checks they have on the power structure.

"It's moving to a papist, Roman Catholic model, not an Orthodox model," said Peter Marudas, an Orthodox Christian Laity council member.

Marudas said the laity wants a model "centered on tradition -- and that's local autonomy."

In February, 35 church members from 17 states filed a lawsuit in New York, where the church's archbishop is based, saying the charter approval without laity consent went against church rules.

One of the plaintiffs, George D. Karcazes of Wilmette, said he hoped those who attended Saturday's forum would urge their churches to pass resolutions that challenge the new charter.

"There are people who are probably not aware of what's going on because priests don't bring it up," Karcazes said. "We want to get parish councils to bring it up."

The Oak Brook meeting was one in a series of forums around the country aimed at empowering laity to speak out against the charter. The event drew state Sen. Adeline Geo-Karis, a Greek Orthodox Christian.

"The Orthodox church in America is very important," the Zion Republican said. "It should not be ignored by the Patriarchate."

Sam Tzakis of Vernon Hills said the church has no right to impose a charter without the approval of lay people.

"Our parents built the churches themselves, not the bishop in Turkey," Tzakis said

Offline Tikhon29605

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2004, 12:49:13 PM »
I thought we had a hierarchcial government in the Orthodox Church with rule by the "Despota", the Bishop.  I thought the idea of "local autonomy" was a Baptist notion, not an Orthodox one.  I know in the OCA (my jurisdiction) the parishes have no local autonomy whatsoever.  In fact, in my parish we don't even debate what the Bishop says, we simply OBEY him.  Our bishop has to approve of people elected to the parish council, and the very idea of a parish council exists at the pleasure of our bishop.  If His Eminence wanted to, he could simply dismiss the parish council and have the parish ruled by the priest alone.  I know Metropolitan Philip of the Antiochian Archdiocese has done that on occassion when parish councils got "uppity" and controlling and tried to put the priest and the bishop on a leash.  Just some food for thought.

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Offline Father Peter

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2004, 12:52:09 PM »
That is the same situation in my own Coptic Orthodox Church.

The bishop is the Father of the people in his care, and like an old time father he is to be obeyed, and loved and supported. Not necessarily blindly obeyed but certainly not subjected to modern notions of democracy at every step.

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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2004, 01:04:17 PM »
I thought we had a hierarchcial government in the Orthodox Church with rule by the "Despota", the Bishop.  I thought the idea of "local autonomy" was a Baptist notion, not an Orthodox one. ...

Tikhon

Fear not, my friend. You are correct in your understanding. It's amazing that a few (OCL) malcontents can get 'press'. Not that I've closely followed the matter, but I think only 5 parishes out of about 550 are agitating this tomfoolery. And, yes, I would imagine some parish councils could very well be removed -even excommunicated.
Perhaps, a few monk/priests should be assigned to these parishes for...ah, attitude adjustment. ;)

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Offline Fr. David

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2004, 05:08:04 PM »
Perhaps, a few monk/priests should be assigned to these parishes for...ah, attitude adjustment. ;)

Careful, though; a Gk parish in a town I used to live in wound up driving away said Monk Priest -- to Mt. Athos to recuperate!

Love the comment about the Baptist concept.  It's so wonderful[/i] to be in a place where you don't have to go through 17 subcommittees to get something decided!
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Offline gregory2

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2004, 05:53:59 PM »
"Greek Orthodox Christians pride their church on the power of its lay membership."

But pride is probably the worst of all sins!  They need to learn to ask God for humility and repentance, along with obedience, as is mentioned above.  At the heart of this matter is the very inception of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, created on the grounds of "national pride" and wanting Greek bishops instead of the original Orthodox Bishops who existed in the Americas.  Now we're seeing the normal repercussions of this.  

I'm also not some casual outside observer: I'm half Greek and grew up in the GOAA.  The best decision I made for my spiritual life was transferring my worship to the local territorial Church and the original Orthodox church in the Americas, the OCA.  The Greek part needs to take a definite second to the Orthodox part.  It amazes me how so many fail to realize this.  

Concerning the EP, they need to treat her, their mother church, with love and respect, not like some wicked step-mother.  Moving her out of her current living conditions and bringing her to the beautiful GOAA Headquarters in NYC would be a good first step.  The Antiochian Patriarchate is no longer in Antioch.  How long does the Ecumenical Patriarchate need to stay in "Constantinople," a city that doesn't even exist anymore?  Jesus calls us to deal with reality, not to live in some romanticized fantasy-land of the past.
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Offline katherine 2001

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2004, 05:59:55 PM »
Fear not, my friend. You are correct in your understanding. It's amazing that a few (OCL) malcontents can get 'press'. Not that I've closely followed the matter, but I think only 5 parishes out of about 550 are agitating this tomfoolery. And, yes, I would imagine some parish councils could very well be removed -even excommunicated.
Perhaps, a few monk/priests should be assigned to these parishes for...ah, attitude adjustment. ;)

Demetri, maybe a priest who is an ex-marine, preferably a former drill sargeant would be in order :o  Of course, he should *lovingly* assert himself.  Of course, they could make the priest the president of the Parish Council as is done in the Russian tradition.  My first priest always held council meetings in the Church itself rather than in the fellowhip hall to help people remember where they were also.  The references to the Baptists are quite good, having come from that tradition myself and seen churches split by a minority wanting to get rid of a pastor or causing trouble on some other issue.  It's not pretty.  Of course, Paul himself also made it quite clear that we are to be obedient to our hierarchs and priests (though, as Peter pointed out, not blindly).  Personally, I had more than enough of being my own hierarch and priest in my 20 years as a Baptist.  

Demetri, just another crazy Greek

Offline katherine 2001

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2004, 11:02:58 PM »
If I offended anyone by my post, especially the first part, please forgive me.


Offline Ben

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2004, 11:14:27 PM »
As Vladimir Soloviev said, "......mankind cannot enter into relation with God by the way of popular opinion; the Church of Christ can not be found on democracy."

I'm sure I pissed somebody off by just mentioning Vladimir Soloviev... ;D
« Last Edit: May 10, 2004, 11:15:37 PM by Ben »
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2004, 11:39:37 PM »
I'm NOT offended Katherine, and I am in the GOA....the GOA needs a lot of shapping up!

Offline ania

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2004, 10:45:52 AM »
Perhaps the Greeks need a bit of a set-down, but I won't follow a bishop blindly, and most (at least level-headed) ROCOR layity won't either.  Not that I'm for outright disregard for a bishop.  If a parish is upset with a priest or a bishop, they go to either their bishop or the synod, where their case is heard.  (I know of one ROCOR diocese who's bishop is in name only, after his assignment there was protested by several of the priests.  The priests in that diocese report now directly to their blagochiniy & Met. Lavr, and that bishop has not stepped foot in a parish of his diocese since his assignment.)
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Offline katherine 2001

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2004, 05:15:40 PM »
Ania, I don't have a problem with what you say.  What I have problems with is people *suing* the Church.  Paul was quite clear about Christians suing each other and I think we all know what he would have said about Christians suing the Church itself and causing a division in Christ's body.  

It's just so sad to see this happen, and we need to keep the GOA in our prayers that this will be resolved.

Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2004, 11:58:31 AM »


One of their resounding cries: Let's not let what happened to the Roman Catholics happen to us.



What is he talking about?

Offline TomS

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2004, 12:12:25 PM »
What is he talking about?

Part of the reason WHY priests were able to abuse chilldren was because ALL power rested at a level where concealment and denial could take place  - the laity did not have the power to FORCE issues be dealt with by the corrupt, power hungry, and pridefull  bishops of the RC church.

Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2004, 03:13:13 PM »

Power battle roils Greek Orthodox church

May 9, 2004

BY NATASHA KORECKI Staff Reporter Advertisement

If Greek Orthodox Christians hope to retain power within their church, they need to band together and demand it, church leaders said Saturday at an Oak Brook forum.

About 100 Chicago area Greek Christians met to discuss an ongoing battle over the balance of power in their church.

One of their resounding cries: Let's not let what happened to the Roman Catholics happen to us.

At the heart of the debate is whether a new charter issued in 2003 by the Greek Orthodox hierarchy could erode laity power. Unlike in previous years, the new charter was issued without the approval or feedback of lay church members in the United States and elsewhere.

Greek Orthodox Christians pride their church on the power of its lay membership.

Giving too much power to the Patriarchate in Istanbul, Turkey, is like Catholics giving too much power to Rome, they said.

Greek Christians fear they would lose checks they have on the power structure.

"It's moving to a papist, Roman Catholic model, not an Orthodox model," said Peter Marudas, an Orthodox Christian Laity council member.

Marudas said the laity wants a model "centered on tradition -- and that's local autonomy."

In February, 35 church members from 17 states filed a lawsuit in New York, where the church's archbishop is based, saying the charter approval without laity consent went against church rules.

One of the plaintiffs, George D. Karcazes of Wilmette, said he hoped those who attended Saturday's forum would urge their churches to pass resolutions that challenge the new charter.

"There are people who are probably not aware of what's going on because priests don't bring it up," Karcazes said. "We want to get parish councils to bring it up."

The Oak Brook meeting was one in a series of forums around the country aimed at empowering laity to speak out against the charter. The event drew state Sen. Adeline Geo-Karis, a Greek Orthodox Christian.

"The Orthodox church in America is very important," the Zion Republican said. "It should not be ignored by the Patriarchate."

Sam Tzakis of Vernon Hills said the church has no right to impose a charter without the approval of lay people.

"Our parents built the churches themselves, not the bishop in Turkey," Tzakis said


Sounds like a protestant squable to me. soon enough they will have a board of directors/elders.

Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2004, 03:17:03 PM »
Part of the reason WHY priests were able to abuse chilldren was because ALL power rested at a level where concealment and denial could take place  - the laity did not have the power to FORCE issues be dealt with by the corrupt, power hungry, and pridefull  bishops of the RC church.

Please.. that had nothing to do with it and you know it. These were homosexuals  had no business in the church. The church doesn't have a test to determine if on is a homoasexual or not. I am sure that they are not going to ask for proof. ;)

and if yuo want to talk about corrupt power hungry bishops, then look no further than your church. There is plenty.

Offline Schultz

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2004, 03:32:10 PM »
Quote
Please.. that had nothing to do with it and you know it. These were homosexuals  had no business in the church.

How do you explain the priests who molested young girls, then?  They certainlyl weren't homosexuals.
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Offline Schultz

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2004, 03:33:03 PM »
Quote
the laity did not have the power to FORCE issues be dealt with by the corrupt, power hungry, and pridefull  bishops of the RC church.

Oh but the laity does, it just didn't realize it until it was too late.

The laity have the power of the checkbook.
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Offline TomS

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2004, 03:46:01 PM »
Please.. that had nothing to do with it and you know it. These were homosexuals  had no business in the church. The church doesn't have a test to determine if on is a homoasexual or not. I am sure that they are not going to ask for proof. ;)

and if yuo want to talk about corrupt power hungry bishops, then look no further than your church. There is plenty.

It's not an issue of whether they did it or not -- it's the issue that they were PROTECTED by the POWER and exclusivity of the church heirarchy.

Geez... THINK!

Offline Brendan03

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2004, 03:48:54 PM »
Sounds like a protestant squable to me. soon enough they will have a board of directors/elders.

No, I don't think so.  We have a territorial principle of church organization in Orthodoxy, as we have had from the outset, and that principle is being violated in numerous places in North America.  That creates a tension.  Until we fix it by having a truly territorially-based church in North America for all North American Orthodox, we will have this tension.  The Antiochians have similar tensions with their Synod in Damascus as the Greeks do with Istanbul.  These tensions will continue until we have our own ecclesiastical house in order in North America, I think.
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Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2004, 04:16:57 PM »
It's not an issue of whether they did it or not -- it's the issue that they were PROTECTED by the POWER and exclusivity of the church heirarchy.

Geez... THINK!


Have you ever heard of the confessional. What ever is confessed in the confessional can't never be divulged. Do orthodox priest go around telling people sins confessed in the confessional?

GEE... WHY DO YOU THINK!
« Last Edit: May 19, 2004, 04:17:25 PM by romanbyzantium »

Offline TomS

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2004, 04:26:46 PM »
Have you ever heard of the confessional. What ever is confessed in the confessional can't never be divulged. Do orthodox priest go around telling people sins confessed in the confessional?

GEE... WHY DO YOU THINK!

Nonsense. Excuses. Excuses

Seems to me that the confessional has been used by your church to enable the ungodlike acts that have occurred.

Offline Schultz

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2004, 04:30:07 PM »
Quote
Nonsense. Excuses. Excuses

That's exactly what it is.  

The simple fact remains, romanbyzantium, that bishops knew that priests were buggering children.  And instead of removing them from active ministry and shutting them up in either a monastery or (better yet) in an institution where they could do no one anymore harm, they simply reassigned them to other parishes.

Don't go bringing the confessional into this, it has nothing to do with the failure of our bishops, yours and mine, to do their God appointed jobs.

The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops and priests.
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Offline Elisha

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2004, 04:37:39 PM »
That's exactly what it is.  

The simple fact remains, romanbyzantium, that bishops knew that priests were buggering children.  And instead of removing them from active ministry and shutting them up in either a monastery or (better yet) in an institution where they could do no one anymore harm, they simply reassigned them to other parishes.

Don't go bringing the confessional into this, it has nothing to do with the failure of our bishops, yours and mine, to do their God appointed jobs.

The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops and priests.

Well said - and aren't you RC?  I think that quote was form St. Basil, although the way I heard it was that the road is paved with the skeletons of priests and bishop's skulls as lampposts.

Offline Schultz

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2004, 04:41:19 PM »
Quote
Well said - and aren't you RC?  I think that quote was form St. Basil, although the way I heard it was that the road is paved with the skeletons of priests and bishop's skulls as lampposts.

Raised RC, now living as a ByzCath.  

I've heard it attributed to any number of Father, usually St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil.
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Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2004, 05:27:43 PM »
That's exactly what it is.  

The simple fact remains, romanbyzantium, that bishops knew that priests were buggering children.  And instead of removing them from active ministry and shutting them up in either a monastery or (better yet) in an institution where they could do no one anymore harm, they simply reassigned them to other parishes.

Don't go bringing the confessional into this, it has nothing to do with the failure of our bishops, yours and mine, to do their God appointed jobs.

The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops and priests.

Tell me. what should have the bishops done? when they were being told that they were cured and that they would never do that again. and the confessional has alot to do with it. because sins confessed can't never be used againts them. They are forgotten and forgiven by christ. What do you expect them to do when these priest ask forgiveness and they get absolved of their sins?

why do you think that there are laws in the books protcting the clergy from testifing in court in criminal cases?

These bishops where in a very diffucult situation.


Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2004, 05:28:58 PM »
Well said - and aren't you RC?  I think that quote was form St. Basil, although the way I heard it was that the road is paved with the skeletons of priests and bishop's skulls as lampposts.

Tell me alisha, what would happen to a priest in an orthodox church that went to confessiona and confessed to raping a young girl?  what would the bishop do to that priest?

Offline Schultz

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2004, 05:37:15 PM »
You are missing the point.  This has NOTHING to do with a confessional.  The bishops knew that at the very least inappropriate activity was going on.  Cardinal Law knew from independent sources that John Geoghan was raping little boys, sources that had NOTHING to do with the Sacrament of Confession, and he still didn't pull him from active ministry, but just re-assigned him.

Part of forgiveness is PENANCE, my good troll.  Five Our Fathers and five Hail Marys isn't cutting it.  If you think that it is, you're more of an idiot than I previously thought.

The bishops FAILED us.  Open your eyes, get your head out of the sand, and accept the truth.  

As a European, you have very little of an idea of what is going on in my country.  The clerical abuse scandal is something we should be lamenting, not making excuses for.  People are leaving the Church because our bishops failed to live up to their vows, to protect their flock.  Instead of removing the wolf by at the VERY least shutting them away in a monastery, they moved the wolf to another parish where he continued to use and abuse God's children.

I think Christ was speaking to these pederasts directly through the ages when He said, "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea."  (Matthew 18:6)

« Last Edit: May 19, 2004, 05:40:27 PM by Schultz »
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Offline Schultz

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2004, 05:39:53 PM »
Quote
what would happen to a priest in an orthodox church that went to confessiona and confessed to raping a young girl?  what would the bishop do to that priest?

From what I know, absolution would not be given unless the penitent turned himself in.  A bit harsh?  Maybe.  But true forgiveness only happens when there is true repentance.
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline Jakub

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2004, 05:45:03 PM »
The Bishop in a difficult position ?

If you conceal a crime, you are as guilty as the one who commits it.

All with knowledge of said crime & concealment should be punished .

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Offline TomS

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2004, 05:46:49 PM »
Tell me alisha, what would happen to a priest in an orthodox church that went to confessiona and confessed to raping a young girl?  what would the bishop do to that priest?  

He would be immediately removed and face charges. If NOT, then the Church has failed its flock.
 
Although, unfortunately,  these things do occur in all churches, the RC Church, due to its requirement of celibacy, specifically attracts men to the clergy who are sexually dysfunctional.

Only a very very very very very few number of men are celibate and not sexually dysfunctional.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2004, 05:48:33 PM by Tom+ú »

Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2004, 05:48:27 PM »
You are missing the point.  This has NOTHING to do with a confessional.  The bishops knew that at the very least inappropriate activity was going on.  Cardinal Law knew from independent sources that John Geoghan was raping little boys, sources that had NOTHING to do with the Sacrament of Confession, and he still didn't pull him from active ministry, but just re-assigned him.

Part of forgiveness is PENANCE, my good troll.  Five Our Fathers and five Hail Marys isn't cutting it.  If you think that it is, you're more of an idiot than I previously thought.

The bishops FAILED us.  Open your eyes, get your head out of the sand, and accept the truth.  

As a European, you have very little of an idea of what is going on in my country.  The clerical abuse scandal is something we should be lamenting, not making excuses for.  People are leaving the Church because our bishops failed to live up to their vows, to protect their flock.  Instead of removing the wolf by at the VERY least shutting them away in a monastery, they moved the wolf to another parish where he continued to use and abuse God's children.

I think Christ was speaking to these pederasts directly through the ages when He said, "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea."  (Matthew 18:6)



Oh now I am an idiot.  :-*

I told you that flaterry won't cut it with me.

and the church has its enemies from within and without. ;)

Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2004, 05:50:53 PM »
He would be immediately removed and face charges. If NOT, then the Church has failed its flock.
 
Although, unfortunately,  these things do occur in all churches, the RC Church, due to its requirement of celibacy, specifically attracts men to the clergy who are sexually dysfunctional.

Only a very very very very very few number of men are celibate and not sexually dysfunctional.



So you are saying that anyone who is celibate is a pedophile?  wow I feel sorry for those celibate orthodox bishops? are they pedophile too? according to you celibacy leads to pedophilia.

Lets see how you get out of this one. ;)

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2004, 05:51:12 PM »
Nice way to not address anything I said.
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Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2004, 05:54:54 PM »
Nice way to not address anything I said.


I disagree with you and then I said " and the church has its enemies from within and without".

what else do you want?

Offline TomS

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2004, 05:57:35 PM »
So you are saying that anyone who is celibate is a pedophile?


No. Most are Gay. Sexual dysfunction is not just about pedophilia.

And you are right -- most Orthodox bishops and monks are probably gay (but hopefully no practicing)

It is totally AGAINST NATURE to be celibate. And there have been only a very small number of godly men who were able to live this life.

Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2004, 06:14:20 PM »
No. Most are Gay. Sexual dysfunction is not just about pedophilia.

And you are right -- most Orthodox bishops and monks are probably gay (but hopefully no practicing)

It is totally AGAINST NATURE to be celibate. And there have been only a very small number of godly men who were able to live this life.

I totally disagree with you in your assessment that if one is celibate then one is gay.  I believe that these people could not come to term that they were GAY but believed that somehow they could be changed if they were closer to God and many went to the seminaries to escape. What other place are you closer to God than serving in his church.

Celibacy is not against nature. Christ was a celibate and Paul too.

Offline TomS

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2004, 06:15:51 PM »
Celibacy is not against nature. Christ was a celibate and Paul too.

Yeah. Good examples of normal men.

And I did use the word "most". Your church admits having a problem of a "gay priesthood".
« Last Edit: May 19, 2004, 06:17:22 PM by Tom+ú »

Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2004, 06:18:04 PM »
Yeah. Good examples of normal men.

And I did use the word "most". Your church admits having a problem of a "gay priesthood".

In my opinion, I think that celibacy should be an option.

Offline TomS

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2004, 06:25:27 PM »
In my opinion, I think that celibacy should be an option.

Absolutely. Good call!  :D

Offline Elisha

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2004, 06:49:45 PM »
No. Most are Gay. Sexual dysfunction is not just about pedophilia.

And you are right -- most Orthodox bishops and monks are probably gay (but hopefully no practicing)

It is totally AGAINST NATURE to be celibate. And there have been only a very small number of godly men who were able to live this life.

Actually, I moderately disagree.   ;D  But yes, I'm sure a fair amount are (gay).

Offline David

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2004, 12:42:24 PM »
No. Most are Gay. Sexual dysfunction is not just about pedophilia.

And you are right -- most Orthodox bishops and monks are probably gay (but hopefully no practicing)

It is totally AGAINST NATURE to be celibate. And there have been only a very small number of godly men who were able to live this life.

I very much disagree with this.  While I am sure there are some celibates who may or may not be homosexual, to make the claim that you are making goes is a slap in the face of centuries of pious men and women who have led far holier lives than we in ages that have not focused as much on sexual depravity as our own.  

EVERYTHING in Christianity is against nature.  To deny yourself, forgive others when they have wronged you, etc all of this flies in the face of "nature" and "morality" of the modern secular world.  When someone has given up so much already, giving up sexual activity is not the impossible act that many in our modern world believe it to be.
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Offline Fotina02

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2004, 01:06:13 PM »
I very much disagree with this.  While I am sure there are some celibates who may or may not be homosexual, to make the claim that you are making goes is a slap in the face of centuries of pious men and women who have led far holier lives than we in ages that have not focused as much on sexual depravity as our own.  

EVERYTHING in Christianity is against nature.  To deny yourself, forgive others when they have wronged you, etc all of this flies in the face of "nature" and "morality" of the modern secular world.  When someone has given up so much already, giving up sexual activity is not the impossible act that many in our modern world believe it to be.  

I agree with you David. If Christ has no power to change "nature", then we deny Christ and Orthodoxy.  Today is Ascension Day, but still we proclaim, Christ Is Risen!

Offline Brendan03

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2004, 01:38:11 PM »
So you are saying that anyone who is celibate is a pedophile?  wow I feel sorry for those celibate orthodox bishops? are they pedophile too? according to you celibacy leads to pedophilia.

Lets see how you get out of this one. ;)

No I think Tom was saying that the number of normally sexually healthy people who are called to celibacy is small, so that celibacy should not be mandatory for the priesthood because if it is you are going to have a lot of sexually dysfunctional people in the clergy, a disproprtionate number of them.  I'm not sure whether they are all gay, I suspect that many of them are, but there are also likely a good number who are not gay, but have other sexual dysfunctions.

I feel badly for what has happened in the RCC in North America, mostly because of the absolutely horrific things that happened to these children, all over the place.  And the defensiveness which was the response of the RC episcopate here, and even in Rome, was really crazy, offensive, and sad.  It highlights the gaping chasm that exists between the episcopate and the laity in the RCC, in my opinion ... the Bishops really just don't get it, and that is sad.

Brendan
B

Offline Ben

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2004, 01:49:52 PM »
Wow think of all of those Orthodox monks......all gay...eh? Tom how do you feel about your Church being run by mostly homosexuals?
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2004, 02:03:57 PM »
Ben,

Ouch!

{This is one weird thread}

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Offline TomS

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2004, 03:02:26 PM »
Wow think of all of those Orthodox monks......all gay...eh? Tom how do you feel about your Church being run by mostly homosexuals?

I think it is pathetic. But my Church is run by 2 married Priests.

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2004, 05:36:02 PM »
Tom, have you ever been to an Orthodox monastery?

Offline TomS

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #48 on: May 20, 2004, 05:39:57 PM »
I have not stayed overnight at one -- but I have been to those in Meteora, Greece. I hope to stay at one this summer in the US and at one somewhere in Greece in the fall.

I need to learn more about this type of service to God before I shoot off my opinions.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2004, 05:51:05 PM by Tom+ú »

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2004, 05:53:06 PM »
Meteora is a tourist site.  Try to find one more off the beaten path, or that is visited mostly by pilgrims and less tourists to get a real feel of monasticism.  Once you get to know some monastics, you'll realize that they aren't freaks....just fellow Christians working out thier salvation.

Offline katherine 2001

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #50 on: May 20, 2004, 06:32:45 PM »
Christ never engaged in sex--he was celibate--are we now saying that He was gay and sexually dysfunctional?  It is entirely possible to be celibate and not be either gay or sexually dysfunctional.  It is entirely possible to be sexually active and be both.  

Has it occurred to people that we are making judgment calls and that we know nothing about these people, as we are not their spiritual fathers nor hear their confessions?


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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #51 on: May 20, 2004, 07:21:15 PM »
The whole "celibate = gay (most of the time)" notion is by far one of the dumbest things I've ever heard of.  The only saving grace is that there are many people who sincerely believe this, but that's really not saying much.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Offline TomS

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2004, 12:10:13 AM »
The whole "celibate = gay (most of the time)" notion is by far one of the dumbest things I've ever heard of.  The only saving grace is that there are many people who sincerely believe this, but that's really not saying much.  

Or maybe ignorance is bliss?

It is simple common sense. If you have an organization that requires celibacy, you are going to attract gays. Do you think it is just a coincidence that the catholic church has a problem of a gay priesthood?



Offline Ben

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2004, 12:34:20 AM »
I think homosexuals in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches who do not want to be apart of the anti-God gay lifestyle, become priests and/or monks. Many of them have callings and wish to be faithful to God and the Church, and as a result they feel that the priesthood or the monastic life is their only option.
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Offline TomS

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2004, 09:15:23 AM »
I think homosexuals in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches who do not want to be apart of the anti-God gay lifestyle, become priests and/or monks. Many of them have callings and wish to be faithful to God and the Church, and as a result they feel that the priesthood or the monastic life is their only option.

EXACTLY my viewpoint, Ben.

That is what I meant when I said that they are "Gay". I am NOT saying that they are "practicing" homosexuals.

I should have stressed that point. My fault.




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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2004, 09:18:27 AM »
While that is true for some, there are also many to whom lust is not the most powerful temptation in life.  We like to think otherwise because of the virtual Sodom and Gomorrah we believe ourselves to reside in, but lust is not the most powerful sin for many of us.  Pride manifested through lust is often much more deadly.
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Offline Ben

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2004, 01:43:18 PM »
Sorry Tom...I thought you meant practicing homosexuals...my fault
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Offline TomS

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Re:GOA Laity in Chicago
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2004, 02:30:01 PM »
Sorry Tom...I thought you meant practicing homosexuals...my fault

Not your fault at all.

It is apparent by the reactions of other posters that that I did not express myself clearly.  :-[