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Author Topic: Re: How Our Orthodox Brethren In Zambia Commune  (Read 4146 times) Average Rating: 0
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HabteSelassie
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« on: February 25, 2011, 03:46:37 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
What a lovely video!

I loved the Africanization of their hymnal chant, it has the polyrhythmic, multi-tone, style so typically pan-African, which touches the heart of all indigenous African worship.  In Ethiopia, we also have a bit of this, but we have been Orthodox for so long, ours is the ancient chants of the African past, where as these in Zambia sound a bit more contemporary.  Glory be to God! 

This is a good opportunity for the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church to spread the Gospel of Orthodox across Africa.  We are in South Africa, Kenya, Uganda, Sudan, Egypt, Zimbabwe, we are all across Africa, and we should spread further in God's good Grace!  EOTC is a thoroughly and indigenously African, and so most Africans should be able to relate.  It is the perfectly Divine alternative for Africa, to have its own distinctively African Orthodox jurisdiction, and the Greek Patriarchy in Alexandria should ease its claims as the Bishop of All of Africa, these titles should rightfully be held by HH Pope Shenouda III and subsequently through mutual Apostolic authority be transmitted through the Patriarchy in Addis Ababa/Axum to have spiritual authority across Africa, as Africans.

Seeing this kind of video gives me great hope for this Orthodoxification of Africa.  Orthodox is indigenously African, it originates in Egypt, Ethiopia and Sudan BEFORE it spread into Europe and the Caucus regions.  Further, the Levant in many respects is Africa, so even in Asia Minor the early Church was related to Africa.

That being said, Africans today should not seek a foreign Christianity from Pentecostals or Anglicans or even Roman Catholics or Geek Orthodox, but rather these should be afforded the opportunity to join up with the Copts and the Tewahedo Christians, who give Africans an African alternative to the colonial Christianity previously received.

Glory be unto God that Africa is the origination of Orthodox, has been the continuation of Orthodox, as is indeed the great future of Orthodoxy!

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2011, 04:36:41 PM »

and the Greek Patriarchy in Alexandria should ease its claims as the Bishop of All of Africa, these titles should rightfully be held by HH Pope Shenouda III and subsequently through mutual Apostolic authority be transmitted through the Patriarchy in Addis Ababa/Axum to have spiritual authority across Africa, as Africans.

Give authority to schismatics?
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« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2011, 08:41:33 PM »

and the Greek Patriarchy in Alexandria should ease its claims as the Bishop of All of Africa, these titles should rightfully be held by HH Pope Shenouda III and subsequently through mutual Apostolic authority be transmitted through the Patriarchy in Addis Ababa/Axum to have spiritual authority across Africa, as Africans.

Give authority to schismatics?

That being said, Africans today should not seek a foreign Christianity from Pentecostals or Anglicans or even Roman Catholics or Geek Orthodox, but rather these should be afforded the opportunity to join up with the Copts and the Tewahedo Christians, who give Africans an African alternative to the colonial Christianity previously received.

This suggestion is going to be rather strained, given that the see of St. Mark, the Evangelizer of Africa, was founded as a Greek city, and St. Mark came from Cyrene, founded as a Greek city in 630 BC.  The Church's text of the OT was translated in St. Mark's see of Alexandria, into Greek.

The largest African language is Arabic, but Greek precedes Arabic in Africa basically by a millenium.

So selling Greek as "foreign" to Africa is going to be a hard sell.

The Greek Orthodox in Egypt had been using the rite of Alexandria: Constantinople didn't begin to impose its rite until 1194.  There is, however, evidence of earlier borrowing from Constantinople by the extinct  Sad Nubian Orthodox Church.  For the WRO, the Latin Mass originated in Africa, brought to Rome (which hereto had used Greek) by Pope St. Victor, an Africa, near the end of the second century.

There hasn't been any Pan-African culture anymore than there has ever been a pan-Asian culture, nor a pan-North American or pan-South American culture until the arrival of the Europeans.  North Africa and the Horn of Africa (where Ethiopia is located) were fully integrated with the Middle East and Europe (including the Greeks) with no idea, concept, contact or reference to Africa south of the Sahel.  They do not speak the same language

nor share the same ancestry, nor experienced the same history.  What would be the justification for Axum having jurisdiction beyond the Horn of Africa?

Of course, I have no problems with the Copts and Ethiopians evangelizing the continent, and unifying again the preaching of St. Mark.
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« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2011, 11:05:31 PM »

That being said, Africans today should not seek a foreign Christianity from Pentecostals or Anglicans or even Roman Catholics or Geek Orthodox, but rather these should be afforded the opportunity to join up with the Copts and the Tewahedo Christians, who give Africans an African alternative to the colonial Christianity previously received.

In what sense is the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria "colonial"?

Actually many of the Kenyan Orthodox joined the Church of Alexandria because it was not associated with any colonial power.
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« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2011, 11:50:48 PM »

Actually many of the Kenyan Orthodox joined the Church of Alexandria because it was not associated with any colonial power.

That's true, as was briefly discussed in this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,14554.msg208341.html#msg208341
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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2011, 03:57:57 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


This suggestion is going to be rather strained, given that the see of St. Mark, the Evangelizer of Africa, was founded as a Greek city, and St. Mark came from Cyrene, founded as a Greek city in 630 BC.  The Church's text of the OT was translated in St. Mark's see of Alexandria, into Greek.

The rightful successor to the See of Saint Mark is Pope Shenouda III. The Greek Church there in Alexandria is there for the needs of the Greek communities in Africa.  These are even in Ethiopia, and have been for centuries.  The Greek peoples have always been traveling around Africa, and the Greek Church has obliged their needs.  However, in regards to proper jurisdictions, the regions of Africa are under the See of Saint Mark, but rightfully under the Coptic Church, not the Greek Church there.  Further, it has been explained to me on this forum that the Greek Church in Alexandria has no such pretensions to the jurisdictions of Africa, rather those Africans who happen to attend Greek services are welcome, but the proper purpose for the Greek Church in Africa is to address the needs of Greeks in Africa, not Africans.

There are already two fully African jurisdictions in Africa, there is no need for a European group to come into this jurisdiction.  Do the Copts need to go to Greece and evangelize the Greek peoples? Nonsense, and no one on either side would suggest such a thing.  

I have no problem at all with the Greek Church in Africa, so long as it does not come into conflict with the African Orthodox already established and establishing. Its like the Apostle Paul said, "Lest I build upon another man's foundation."
Further, if you can't see why its best for Africans to receive Christianity from other black African faces, with similar black African musics, cultures, foods, etiquettes, understandings, habits, taboos, etc etc etc, then I simply can't explain it to you.  Part of Christianity is that it is real life, you can see yourself in it.  Africans would benefit highly from receiving Orthodox Christianity from other black faces in a familiar setting, that they could rightfully see themselves in the Church.

However, please note my own bias and chip on my shoulder, I take the stance in my ideology the African contributions, specifically to Christianity, are often poorly overlooked, and so I am quite sensitive to these matters.

I did not intend to imply that the Greek Church was not welcome for Africans, rather that it would be better if the Copts and Tewahedo take the lead in spreading Orthodox across Africa, as surely the Afro-centric pulse and rhythm of their Orthodoxy is more relevant to black Africa than the Greeks or the especially the Pentecostals? See pious Africans line up for Communion and to receive it from true foreigners (how are Greeks not doubly foreign as both Europeans and white folks in Zambia?) is a sign of the good Grace of God, that the harvest is vast.  So I would like to pray that the Lord of the harvest eject workers into the fields, but each worker must be properly equipped for their own particular task.  Obviously black Africans have an intuitive understanding about black Africa Wink


rural Ethiopia

rural Zambia

rural Greece

If there is ANY Orthodox jurisdiction in the world properly, cultural, logistically, and historically capable of sending missions into black Africa and its own particular variables and conditions it is the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, which already has spent the past 1500 years evangelizing and bringing Apostolic Orthodox and the Divine Mysteries across black Africa.  Even recently, there are parts of Ethiopia today with people so African they don't even know there is another world outside, let alone any white people or even other Ethiopians! Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church has systematically been including these people for over the past centuries, creeping further south and west bring Orthodox to these places and peoples.  While you are technically right to argue that the Ethiopians are not necessarily ethnically related to other black Africans, you are absolutely wrong in your assumptions that EOTC has not reasonable familiarity or affinity with the cultures and conditions of black Africa.  The Greeks know Europe to its core, they are European core, and let them have Europe, its a big place.  As for Africa, that is properly Ethiopia's interest.

stay blessed,
habte selassie



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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2011, 04:15:19 PM »

Do the Copts need to go to Greece and evangelize the Greek peoples?

Actually, that would be kind of fun to see.   Cheesy Grin   But the Copts are not into that kind of proselytizing.  

The Copts do have missions in some parts of Africa:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11887.0.html#top


They also are doing some wonderful missionary work in the exotic, pagan lands of Western Europe:

http://orthodox-mission.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2011, 04:25:22 PM »

habteSelassie, we are not part of the same Church, so all your talk about cultural and ethnic affinities is a moot point.
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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2011, 04:25:38 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Do the Copts need to go to Greece and evangelize the Greek peoples?

Actually, that would be kind of fun to see.   Cheesy Grin   But the Copts are not into that kind of proselytizing. 

The Copts do have missions in some parts of Africa:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11887.0.html#top


The also are doing some wonderful missionary work in the exotic, pagan lands of Western Europe:

http://orthodox-mission.blogspot.com/
Indeed they do, and not just particular Missions, but Coptic churches across Africa and Europe where ever Copts happen to live, just as the Greek churches are largely in Greek communities in Africa (or at the least a residual effect of previous Greek migrants).  The EOTC initially had this same process when Ethiopians started going in exile across Africa.  Their are Ethiopian exiles living in almost every black African country, and anywhere they are sizeable there is an EOTC parish to serve their needs.

However in evangelical terms of Orthodox, Bishops have particular geographic jurisdictions which are their spiritual responsibilities.  Each jurisdiction respects the other.  The See of Saint Mark, of the Coptic Church, has rightful and historic claims over the African continent.  However, the Tewahedo Church, which today is autocephalous, for the previous 1500 years was legally the same as the See of Saint Mark.  The Metropolitan Bishops sent to Ethiopia through out these centuries were always Egyptian, and the indigenous Ethiopian clergy could only rank to Archbishops.  So the Apostolic authority of Ethiopia has also always been traditionally the See of Saint Mark.  Today, Ethiopia being independent does not erase this historic source of Ethiopian legitimacy, so essentially the Ethiopians maintain the same legal jurisdictions over Africa that the See of Saint Mark enjoys.  Further, Pope Shenouda and HH Abune Paulos are friendly and have mutual relations in these regards, choregraphing their respective moves in the spirit of fellowship.  

Culturally, historically, and even legally then, Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church has the best claims over black Africa in regards to Orthodox evangelization and spreading of priests and churches across Africa. Historically, Ethiopia has also been the only of the churches to consistently do this very thing.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2011, 04:29:26 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
habteSelassie, we are not part of the same Church, so all your talk about cultural and ethnic affinities is a moot point.
In which regards, according to the schizm between Oriental and Eastern/Western Orthodox? Fine and so be it, but if y'all want on the Western/EO side want to be so confrontational about it, you shall see that the points I made about cultural relevancy will explain themselves in time.

I did not necessarily think it was some kind of contest or rivalry but if you feel that way oh well..

Jesus Christ is stronger than you or my own weaknesses.  

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2011, 05:22:36 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
habteSelassie, we are not part of the same Church, so all your talk about cultural and ethnic affinities is a moot point.
In which regards, according to the schizm between Oriental and Eastern/Western Orthodox? Fine and so be it, but if y'all want on the Western/EO side want to be so confrontational about it, you shall see that the points I made about cultural relevancy will explain themselves in time.

You said Pope Shenoudah is the rightful heir of St. Mark, which seems to me to imply that Pope Theodoros II is illegitimate. Please correct me if you believe otherwise.
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« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2011, 05:33:49 PM »

From what I understand, His Beatitude Theodoros is a total sweetheart, and he and His Holiness Pope Shenouda are good friends.

However, I know you know that the EO's and OO's both have the position that one man is legitimate and the other not.  Or perhaps I am mistaken.  Do the EO's consider both to be successors of St. Mark? 
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« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2011, 05:40:37 PM »

From what I understand, His Beatitude Theodoros is a total sweetheart, and he and His Holiness Pope Shenouda are good friends.

However, I know you know that the EO's and OO's both have the position that one man is legitimate and the other not.  Or perhaps I am mistaken.  Do the EO's consider both to be successors of St. Mark? 

I believe Pope Theodoros II to be the legitimate successor, but if we are really one Church, as HabteSelassie seems to think, then one would have to conclude that both are legitimate.
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« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2011, 05:46:57 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
From what I understand, His Beatitude Theodoros is a total sweetheart, and he and His Holiness Pope Shenouda are good friends.

However, I know you know that the EO's and OO's both have the position that one man is legitimate and the other not.  Or perhaps I am mistaken.  Do the EO's consider both to be successors of St. Mark? 

I am Oriental Orthodox and Ethiopian Orthodox at that, I am obliged to honor Pope Shenouda III as the rightful Successor to the See of Saint Mark in Alexandria.  Further, all ideologies aside, the practical history of Egypt, Africa and Orthodoxy agrees with the OO conclusion in regards to the correct Apostolic See of Saint Mark.  

If the Greek Church in Alexandria is attempting to claim supremacy over the Coptic Church in Alexandria in regards to the Succession of the See of Saint Mark, then I am afraid history and reality disagree with such pretensions.  However I do not believe the Greek Church in Egypt and Africa has the same ideas and aspirations as you Iconodude..

Again, it has been explained to me that the Greek Church in Alexandria is responsible for the Greek churches in Africa, specifically for those Greeks in Africa, and is not under evangelical jurisdiction over Africa.  If I am mistaken I apologize.



You said Pope Shenoudah is the rightful heir of St. Mark, which seems to me to imply that Pope Theodoros II is illegitimate. Please correct me if you believe otherwise.
I recognize Theodoros II authority as being legitimate over his own Eastern Orthodox parishes in Africa, but I do not recognize him as sitting on the See of Saint Mark, that is the Coptic inheritance.  Further, we in Tewahedo Church are the sister church to the Copts, we mutually recognize each others' Orthodox jurisdiction and legitimacy across Africa.  However in regards to the Greeks, we let them be, but they should not pretend to have African jurisdiction aside from their own residual Greek parishes which initially were founded for Greeks in Africa, not Africans.  I do not understand the Greek Church do be pretending such in the first place, so this is not in actuality a problem, however if folks in the EO have these aspirations they should pray for more humility in Christ.

Again, "Lest I build upon another man's foundation."

stay blessed,
habte selassie

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« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2011, 05:49:42 PM »

I have a question about the EO Patriarch of Alexandria:  Why is that position always filled by a Greek?  (If I'm wrong about this, someone tell me.)  It's not that I have a problem with Greeks, or anything.   Smiley   It's just that one would think the position would be filled by someone native to the region.  Is there an historical reason for this?  I know Alexandria used to be a Greek speaking city, but that was a long time ago.  I'm just wondering what the reason is for the position today always being filled by someone who is not native to that area.  
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« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2011, 05:55:30 PM »

Question for the EO's:

Is what HabteSelassie saying representative of the EO view of the EO Patriarch of Alexandria?  Do you guys see him as only the pastoral leader of the Greeks who have historically lived in North Africa, rather than the successor to St. Mark?   That would certainly explain why he is Greek.  However, I thought you guys saw him as the successor to St. Mark.
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« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2011, 06:20:54 PM »

Question for the EO's:

Is what HabteSelassie saying representative of the EO view of the EO Patriarch of Alexandria? 

No it's not.

Pope Theodoros mentioned in his Christmas message that the Patriarchate is redoubling efforts to provide spiritual and material assistance to those affected by AIDS (including a campaign to eliminate the stigma associated with the disease).  He's very much in touch with the African people and not just the Greeks residing in Africa.
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« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2011, 07:22:46 PM »

I recognize Theodoros II authority as being legitimate over his own Eastern Orthodox parishes in Africa, but I do not recognize him as sitting on the See of Saint Mark, that is the Coptic inheritance.  Further, we in Tewahedo Church are the sister church to the Copts, we mutually recognize each others' Orthodox jurisdiction and legitimacy across Africa.  However in regards to the Greeks, we let them be, but they should not pretend to have African jurisdiction aside from their own residual Greek parishes which initially were founded for Greeks in Africa, not Africans.  I do not understand the Greek Church do be pretending such in the first place, so this is not in actuality a problem, however if folks in the EO have these aspirations they should pray for more humility in Christ.

Again, "Lest I build upon another man's foundation."


I'm sorry, but you seem to be saying that the Greek Orthodox should not establish missions in Kenya, Uganda, Zambia, etc. These countries, I imagine, are less than 1% Orthodox as it is. In what way is the Greek Orthodox Church "building on another man's foundation"? If the OO churches have missions in these countries as well, I highly doubt there is any overlap or competition for flock. There is nothing stopping the OO from establishing their own missions in other places- Africa is a huge continent and the vast majority of the people are neither EO nor OO. If the EO make some tiny headway, I don't see the point of poo-pooing the effort.

Further, you seem to be pretending as if the Greeks are acting like a colonial power here. Actually the Church often spread in these countries  because people in them expressed interest first, so a mission was sent. As far as your fixation on skin color goes- notice that the priest and everyone else in the video is black. The Greek Orthodox Church has many black clergy as well as several black bishops. What's more, the Greek Orthodox Church in Egypt itself has had many Arab members for a long time, so your assumption that the Greek Orthodox Church is an ethnic enclave is nonsense.
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« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2011, 07:33:57 PM »

Question for the EO's:

Is what HabteSelassie saying representative of the EO view of the EO Patriarch of Alexandria?  Do you guys see him as only the pastoral leader of the Greeks who have historically lived in North Africa, rather than the successor to St. Mark?   That would certainly explain why he is Greek.  However, I thought you guys saw him as the successor to St. Mark.

HabteSelassie is wrong in this. The official title of Patriarch Theodore II is : His Divine Beatitude the Pope and Patriarch of the Great City of Alexandria, Libya, Pentapolis, Ethiopia, All Egypt and All Africa, Father of Fathers, Pastor of Pastors, Prelate of Prelates, the Thirteenth of the Apostles and Judge of the Ecumene.
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« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2011, 07:52:22 PM »

Question for the EO's:

Is what HabteSelassie saying representative of the EO view of the EO Patriarch of Alexandria?  Do you guys see him as only the pastoral leader of the Greeks who have historically lived in North Africa, rather than the successor to St. Mark?   That would certainly explain why he is Greek.  However, I thought you guys saw him as the successor to St. Mark.

HabteSelassie is wrong in this. The official title of Patriarch Theodore II is : His Divine Beatitude the Pope and Patriarch of the Great City of Alexandria, Libya, Pentapolis, Ethiopia, All Egypt and All Africa, Father of Fathers, Pastor of Pastors, Prelate of Prelates, the Thirteenth of the Apostles and Judge of the Ecumene.

Then why is the position never filled by an Ethiopian, Egyptian, or other African? 
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« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2011, 08:15:35 PM »

Patriarch Eutychius?
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« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2011, 08:38:50 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


This suggestion is going to be rather strained, given that the see of St. Mark, the Evangelizer of Africa, was founded as a Greek city, and St. Mark came from Cyrene, founded as a Greek city in 630 BC.  The Church's text of the OT was translated in St. Mark's see of Alexandria, into Greek.

The rightful successor to the See of Saint Mark is Pope Shenouda III. The Greek Church there in Alexandria is there for the needs of the Greek communities in Africa.
 
Pope Theodore II has Greeks, and Arabs (like yours truly  Cheesy) and Russians, as well as Kenyans, and Ugandans, and Ghanians etc.

These are even in Ethiopia, and have been for centuries.
 
Yes, ever since St. Frumentius.

The Greek peoples have always been traveling around Africa, and the Greek Church has obliged their needs.
That is how St. Frumentius ended up in Ethiopia, and was consecrated him as bishop for Axum and the Ethiopians' needs.

However, in regards to proper jurisdictions, the regions of Africa are under the See of Saint Mark, but rightfully under the Coptic Church, not the Greek Church there.
No.
Further, it has been explained to me on this forum that the Greek Church in Alexandria has no such pretensions to the jurisdictions of Africa, rather those Africans who happen to attend Greek services are welcome, but the proper purpose for the Greek Church in Africa is to address the needs of Greeks in Africa, not Africans.
Whoever so "explained" this  to you doesn't know what he was talking about.  We have several African Churches where there is no Greek anywhere near.

There are already two fully African jurisdictions in Africa, there is no need for a European group to come into this jurisdiction.  Do the Copts need to go to Greece and evangelize the Greek peoples? Nonsense, and no one on either side would suggest such a thing.
 
If the Greeks and Hellenist Hebrews never evangelized Africa, there would no Church.  If there were no Greeks, there would be no African jursidiction.

I have no problem at all with the Greek Church in Africa, so long as it does not come into conflict with the African Orthodox already established and establishing. Its like the Apostle Paul said, "Lest I build upon another man's foundation."
In Africa, it was the Greeks who laid that foundation, which can not only be seen in the numberous Greek loans in Coptic and Ge'ez, but also in the fact that Coptic is written in the Greek alphabet.

Further, if you can't see why its best for Africans to receive Christianity from other black African faces, with similar black African musics, cultures, foods, etiquettes, understandings, habits, taboos, etc etc etc, then I simply can't explain it to you.
 
First explain it to me how black Africa is the only Africa, especially as the original Africa (now Tunisia) isn't black.

Second, make a case that all the cultures unrelated to either Ethiopia or Egypt (both of which are Mediterranean cultures) have as much in common as you are asserting.

Part of Christianity is that it is real life, you can see yourself in it.  Africans would benefit highly from receiving Orthodox Christianity from other black faces in a familiar setting, that they could rightfully see themselves in the Church.
Black faces can preach the Gospel as well to white faces.

However, please note my own bias and chip on my shoulder, I take the stance in my ideology the African contributions, specifically to Christianity, are often poorly overlooked, and so I am quite sensitive to these matters.
Define "African." It seems narrow, and without reason.

I did not intend to imply that the Greek Church was not welcome for Africans, rather that it would be better if the Copts and Tewahedo take the lead in spreading Orthodox across Africa,

The "Greek" Church went from Cairo to Cape, from coast to coast and to other continents (the Pope of Alexandria had a hand in the re-establishment of Orthodoxy in the British Isles, and had a mission in the New World) before either the Copts or Ethiopians resumed evangelization.

as surely the Afro-centric pulse and rhythm of their Orthodoxy is more relevant to black Africa than the Greeks or the especially the Pentecostals? See pious Africans line up for Communion and to receive it from true foreigners (how are Greeks not doubly foreign as both Europeans and white folks in Zambia?) is a sign of the good Grace of God, that the harvest is vast.  So I would like to pray that the Lord of the harvest eject workers into the fields, but each worker must be properly equipped for their own particular task.  Obviously black Africans have an intuitive understanding about black Africa Wink
I'm part European background, and having married a European, I have grave doubts about taking any such "intuitive understanding" for granted.


rural Ethiopia

rural Zambia

rural Greece

rural Greece.

If there is ANY Orthodox jurisdiction in the world properly, cultural, logistically, and historically capable of sending missions into black Africa and its own particular variables and conditions it is the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, which already has spent the past 1500 years evangelizing and bringing Apostolic Orthodox and the Divine Mysteries across black Africa. 
1500 years?  Can you offer some proof outside of the Horn of Africa?

Even recently, there are parts of Ethiopia today with people so African they don't even know there is another world outside, let alone any white people or even other Ethiopians! Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church has systematically been including these people for over the past centuries, creeping further south and west bring Orthodox to these places and peoples.  While you are technically right to argue that the Ethiopians are not necessarily ethnically related to other black Africans, you are absolutely wrong in your assumptions that EOTC has not reasonable familiarity or affinity with the cultures and conditions of black Africa.
 
I don't make assumptions. I look at proof and evidence.

The Greeks know Europe to its core, they are European core, and let them have Europe, its a big place.  As for Africa, that is properly Ethiopia's interest.
As the history of Alexandria shows, the Greeks know Africa as well, having been in Africa nearly as long as the Chosen People were in the Promised Land.

As for Ethiopia, you haven't established how it is properly Ethiopia's interest.  Needless to say, that doesn't prevent Ethiopia from taking an interest in it.
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« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2011, 08:44:40 PM »

Question for the EO's:

Is what HabteSelassie saying representative of the EO view of the EO Patriarch of Alexandria?  Do you guys see him as only the pastoral leader of the Greeks who have historically lived in North Africa, rather than the successor to St. Mark?   That would certainly explain why he is Greek.  However, I thought you guys saw him as the successor to St. Mark.

HabteSelassie is wrong in this. The official title of Patriarch Theodore II is : His Divine Beatitude the Pope and Patriarch of the Great City of Alexandria, Libya, Pentapolis, Ethiopia, All Egypt and All Africa, Father of Fathers, Pastor of Pastors, Prelate of Prelates, the Thirteenth of the Apostles and Judge of the Ecumene.

Then why is the position never filled by an Ethiopian, Egyptian, or other African? 
Thank the Ottomans: they gave all the offices to Phanariots.  But before 1517, and even thereafter, there were many Egyptian/African EO Popes.  The last Pope talked a lot about the day coming when a black African would be become pope.  Right now a lot are Greeks due to the dependence on the Greek state for finances. I expect things to change now that we will be thrown on our own resources due to the collapse of Greece.
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« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2011, 09:01:35 PM »

Question for the EO's:

Is what HabteSelassie saying representative of the EO view of the EO Patriarch of Alexandria?  Do you guys see him as only the pastoral leader of the Greeks who have historically lived in North Africa, rather than the successor to St. Mark?   That would certainly explain why he is Greek.  However, I thought you guys saw him as the successor to St. Mark.
LOL. I know that it will come as a shock to many here, but I'm not Greek. Tongue And I pray for Pope Theodore (as I did for his predecessors Popes Peter, Parthenios and Nicholas) every day (as I do Pope Shenoudah, btw). 
And yes, he is the successor of St. Mark


if you look on the official site
http://www.patriarchateofalexandria.com/index.php?module=content&cid=003002
http://www.patriarchateofalexandria.com/index.php?module=content&cid=004001

there are a couple native Africans in the Holy Synod.

here's a site for the Arabs of the Patriarchate
http://www.goac-pa-eg.com/
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« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2011, 09:02:40 PM »

Patriarch Eutychius?
Who?
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« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2011, 09:06:40 PM »

Amazing. A thread about a beautiful local liturgical custom in the Church Where there is supposed to be "neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free" becomes yet another racial discussion.
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« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2011, 09:34:28 PM »

Question for the EO's:

Is what HabteSelassie saying representative of the EO view of the EO Patriarch of Alexandria?  Do you guys see him as only the pastoral leader of the Greeks who have historically lived in North Africa, rather than the successor to St. Mark?   That would certainly explain why he is Greek.  However, I thought you guys saw him as the successor to St. Mark.

HabteSelassie is wrong in this. The official title of Patriarch Theodore II is : His Divine Beatitude the Pope and Patriarch of the Great City of Alexandria, Libya, Pentapolis, Ethiopia, All Egypt and All Africa, Father of Fathers, Pastor of Pastors, Prelate of Prelates, the Thirteenth of the Apostles and Judge of the Ecumene.

Then why is the position never filled by an Ethiopian, Egyptian, or other African? 
Thank the Ottomans: they gave all the offices to Phanariots.  But before 1517, and even thereafter, there were many Egyptian/African EO Popes.  The last Pope talked a lot about the day coming when a black African would be become pope.  Right now a lot are Greeks due to the dependence on the Greek state for finances. I expect things to change now that we will be thrown on our own resources due to the collapse of Greece.

Thank you for answering my question.  Historically, the way the Turks wanted to control things from Istanbul, what you said makes sense.
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« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2011, 10:13:38 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I am done arguing here, there is way too much historical inaccuracies and Euro-centric philosophies being expressed here that my point of the potential for a mutual indigenous and Orthodox rise in Africa.  I never intended to nay say or discredit the EO or the Greeks in Africa, rather to emphasize that the ground is fertile also for the Tewahedo and Coptic evangelical efforts.

Africa has traditionally been the evangelical realm of the Copts and the Ethiopians, as indigenous Africans, and again, it is obviously pointless for me to have to argue this fact.  If it is not obvious to anyone how indigenously African Orthodox Christianity is relative for black Africans then there is nothing I can say.  
Again, God bless the Greeks, the EO, even the Roman Catholics in Africa, but as an Oriental Orthodox, and further as an Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Christian, I am duty bound to give preference to the Tewahedo evangelicals in Africa.  Further, as an Afro-centric Rastafari brother, I must doubly respect African supremacy in this regard.  I have no apologies for this, it is fair and reasonable to assume that as Bro Marcus Mosiah Garvey taught is just, "Africa for the Africans, Europe for the Europeans."

Further I never suggested the Greeks were colonial, but indeed it is foreign to Africa. The colonial was a mention to the other Christianities spread in Africa from the Pentecostal, Protestant, and Anglican histories. Africa is very sensitive to these matters, and it is beneficial for African dignity to stand on its own feet, especially for religion.  In this regard, I believe then it is better for black Africa to receive an indigenous Orthodoxy, which only the Ethiopians maintain in all of Africa, and this is beneficial and relevant for Africa.  It is not a racial thing, or racists against white folks in Africa, rather it is a matter of Pan-African nationalism and cultural unity. Through its history, Ethiopia has very much been a source of Pan-Africanism, not just in the modern era, and it is only logical that this trend would continue into the future.  Europe has been largely united by a common background of a relatively common Christian experience, from a relatively domestic and indigenous source.  Africa in her era of receiving the Apostolic Age, would equally benefit from a similarly domestic and indigenous Christianity.  



Again, enough respect and reverence to all Orthodox in Africa, but I must confess it seems obvious to me that black Africa would benefit in the long term from the spread of indigenous, black African Christianity.

stay blessed,
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« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2011, 10:54:12 PM »

I am done arguing here, there is way too much historical inaccuracies and Euro-centric philosophies being expressed here that my point of the potential for a mutual indigenous and Orthodox rise in Africa.

The only Eurocentrism I see is your insistence that the Greek Orthodox Church is some kind of outside influence imposing itself on Africans, when in fact Africans themselves are usually the ones expressing interest in Orthodoxy and encouraging the Church to branch out through the continent. Read the history of the Kenyan Orthodox, for instance, and you'll see that your narrative falls apart Your talk of Africa and Africans as if it's all the same, a monolith, smacks of Orientalism, another Eurocentric philosophy, and I think Isa has already dispensed with that nonsense quite well. The Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria is an African Church and always has been.

Quote
Africa has traditionally been the evangelical realm of the Copts and the Ethiopians, as indigenous Africans, and again, it is obviously pointless for me to have to argue this fact.


The EO's in Africa are largely indigenous Africans too, so you have no point to argue. You continue to hold to the mistaken notion that the Eastern Orthodox are all ethnic Greeks.

Quote
 I have no apologies for this, it is fair and reasonable to assume that as Bro Marcus Mosiah Garvey taught is just, "Africa for the Africans, Europe for the Europeans."



Perhaps you can explain to me why His Eminence Jonah, Archbishop of Kampala and All Uganda, is not African or indigenous enough for you. 

Quote
Further I never suggested the Greeks were colonial, but indeed it is foreign to Africa.

Not for over 2000 years have Greeks been foreign to Africa. But again you miss the point. The Greek Orthodox Church is not just Greek.

Quote
Again, enough respect and reverence to all Orthodox in Africa, but I must confess it seems obvious to me that black Africa would benefit in the long term from the spread of indigenous, black African Christianity

Indeed. Thank God for the indigenous, black African Eastern Orthodox Christians in Kenya, Uganda, Zambia, and all over Africa.
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« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2011, 12:34:36 AM »

I am done arguing here, there is way too much historical inaccuracies and Euro-centric philosophies being expressed here that my point of the potential for a mutual indigenous and Orthodox rise in Africa.

The only Eurocentrism I see is your insistence that the Greek Orthodox Church is some kind of outside influence imposing itself on Africans, when in fact Africans themselves are usually the ones expressing interest in Orthodoxy and encouraging the Church to branch out through the continent. Read the history of the Kenyan Orthodox, for instance, and you'll see that your narrative falls apart Your talk of Africa and Africans as if it's all the same, a monolith, smacks of Orientalism, another Eurocentric philosophy, and I think Isa has already dispensed with that nonsense quite well. The Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria is an African Church and always has been.

Quote
Africa has traditionally been the evangelical realm of the Copts and the Ethiopians, as indigenous Africans, and again, it is obviously pointless for me to have to argue this fact.


The EO's in Africa are largely indigenous Africans too, so you have no point to argue. You continue to hold to the mistaken notion that the Eastern Orthodox are all ethnic Greeks.

Quote
 I have no apologies for this, it is fair and reasonable to assume that as Bro Marcus Mosiah Garvey taught is just, "Africa for the Africans, Europe for the Europeans."



Perhaps you can explain to me why His Eminence Jonah, Archbishop of Kampala and All Uganda, is not African or indigenous enough for you. 

Quote
Further I never suggested the Greeks were colonial, but indeed it is foreign to Africa.

Not for over 2000 years have Greeks been foreign to Africa. But again you miss the point. The Greek Orthodox Church is not just Greek.

Quote
Again, enough respect and reverence to all Orthodox in Africa, but I must confess it seems obvious to me that black Africa would benefit in the long term from the spread of indigenous, black African Christianity

Indeed. Thank God for the indigenous, black African Eastern Orthodox Christians in Kenya, Uganda, Zambia, and all over Africa.


There are also indigenous, black African Catholics and Protestants in Africa:




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Njue




http://www.pceaheadoffice.or.ke/


That doesn't make the Roman Catholic Church or the Presbyterian Church African in the sense that the Ethiopian and Coptic Churches are.

The point that Habte was making was that even though there are Africans who are Greek Orthodox and even though there have been Greeks living in Alexandria since pagan times, the Greek Church is just not rooted in Africa the way that the Coptic and Ethiopian Churches are. 

(By the way, don't the Romans have an ancient presence in Tunisia?  Maybe the Roman Catholic Church really is African.)

And I know that His Beatitude is considered the successor of St. Mark by the EO's, but the vast majority of native Egyptian Copts just don't see him that way.



That being said, I'm siding with you guys   Shocked  on the point that there is nothing wrong with the EO's going into places where the Ethiopians and Copts don't already have a significant presence, and evangelizing there.  There are so many millions who have not been reached by any sort of Orthodoxy, OO or EO, that I think it would be wrong for us to squabble over who should be where. (Of course, I would strongly object to any attempts at sheep stealing from one Church to the other, but I don't see where that is happening there.) 

Also, like I said above, the Copts themselves are evangelizing Great Britain through the British Orthodox Church, and it would be hypocritical to support that while opposing the EO's in Africa. 

Whatever.  As Ozgeorge indicated, this is getting to be a petty discussion.  I suggest we all just pray for Orthodox missionaries everywhere.

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« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2011, 12:44:55 AM »

My two cents: I'm just glad to see that these people and the rest of the Africans are increasingly having the opportunity and blessing to join and become part of the True Church, Orthodoxy, regardless of branch, jurisdiction, or rites. Call me an ecumenist, heretic, what have ye, but I highly doubt these people will be judged on their understanding of EO/OO differences concerning Natures, Wills, and Energies, but rather on how they live the Orthodox faith. I would honestly rather see a plethora of different Orthodox (EO and OO) jurisdictions in a single land proclaiming the Orthodox Faith, rather than a few churches fighting over authority in a land which does not even know they exist.
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« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2011, 02:16:32 AM »

My two cents: I'm just glad to see that these people and the rest of the Africans are increasingly having the opportunity and blessing to join and become part of the True Church, Orthodoxy, regardless of branch, jurisdiction, or rites. Call me an ecumenist, heretic, what have ye, but I highly doubt these people will be judged on their understanding of EO/OO differences concerning Natures, Wills, and Energies, but rather on how they live the Orthodox faith. I would honestly rather see a plethora of different Orthodox (EO and OO) jurisdictions in a single land proclaiming the Orthodox Faith, rather than a few churches fighting over authority in a land which does not even know they exist.
Hear! Hear! I pray for the day when we are just talking about the rites of Alexandria, Axum and Constantinople in a united Church which spans the continent with full communion of one Pope of Alexandria with the Patriarchs of Ethiopia and Eritrea, laying the foundation for new Patriarchs across Africa.
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« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2011, 03:24:58 AM »

There are also indigenous, black African Catholics and Protestants in Africa:

That doesn't make the Roman Catholic Church or the Presbyterian Church African in the sense that the Ethiopian and Coptic Churches are.
I'll get to the "Roman Catholic Church" in a moment, but this is comparing apples and oranges, because these churches come prepackaged to Africa, whereas African Greeks packaged the Church in Africa in Greek.

This of course predates the Church's founding: the OT was translated into Greek at Alexandria, and all us Orthodox, EO and OO, use that as our text. St. Mark was a Hellenist Africa, born in a Greek city of Africa, and wrote his Gospel in Greek.

St. Pantaenus, a Sicillian Greek, came to Alexandria and founded the Catechetical School of Alexandria to reconcile Greek philosophy with the Gospel (and who went on mission to India btw), and pasted it on to his prize pupil, St. Clement of Alexandria, who came from Athens. The School was revived by his student Origen who seems to have been a native Egyptian (perhaps even Copt).  This School became a distinctive constituent part of the Alexandrian Church.

Like the above, the Coptic Father Popes. SS. Athanasius and Cyril and the others wrote in Greek although they were Copts (arguing with a Greek once about their nationality, I pointed out that no doubt like all Copts and unlikeall Greeks, they were circumcized, which is a pan-African practice btw).  Even Coptic is written with the Greek alphabet, has a large Greek vocabulary (especially in Church related ideas, e.g. the native Coptic words for priest and soul, for instance, are not used for Christians: instead the Greek loan-words are used).  Huge parts of the "Coptic" Divine Liturgy and other services are said in Greek even today.  The Ethiopians do not use the Greek alphabet (they use an abuga which comes from South Arabia, itself from the North Semitic alphabet and thus also not from Africa), but they too have a huge number of Greek loans (whether any of their service is in Greek, I do not know).

IOW, if the Greek element was taken out of the Coptic and Ethiopian Churches, there would be a huge hole there.  The same cannot be said of the European churches.

The point that Habte was making was that even though there are Africans who are Greek Orthodox and even though there have been Greeks living in Alexandria since pagan times, the Greek Church is just not rooted in Africa the way that the Coptic and Ethiopian Churches are.
We are just saying that is a hard point to argue.  Just because the Greeks have flourished elsewhere doesn't make them less rooted in Africa.  In fact, much of what we call Greek culture was in fact formed in Alexandria, so in many was it is not a European culture exported to Africa, but an African culture exported to Europe.

(By the way, don't the Romans have an ancient presence in Tunisia?  Maybe the Roman Catholic Church really is African.)
The Father of the Latin Fathes, Tertullian, was an African, as was the Latin Father that the Vatican claims to follow above all others, St. Augustine.  The Latin mass was brought to Rome by Pope St. Victor, an African, and much of the discipline of the Latin Church came out of Carthage in Africa (much of the canons of Carthage were accepted by Ecumenical Councils).  A Romance language was spoken in North Africa at least until the 13th century, and maybe until the 16th century.

And I know that His Beatitude is considered the successor of St. Mark by the EO's, but the vast majority of native Egyptian Copts just don't see him that way.
No, but the native Egyptian EOs, both Greek and Arab, see him that way.

That being said, I'm siding with you guys   Shocked  on the point that there is nothing wrong with the EO's going into places where the Ethiopians and Copts don't already have a significant presence, and evangelizing there.  There are so many millions who have not been reached by any sort of Orthodoxy, OO or EO, that I think it would be wrong for us to squabble over who should be where. (Of course, I would strongly object to any attempts at sheep stealing from one Church to the other, but I don't see where that is happening there.)
I've never heard of any problems:both EO and OO get along well in Egypt, and the rest of the continent is rather big.  Both Popes signed agreements recognizing each others Holy Mysteries (something neither Copts nor EOs have done with anyone else), and I've been to several Churches given by departing  Greeks (during the nationalisms of Nasser, many fled) to their Coptic neighbors in Egypt.

Also, like I said above, the Copts themselves are evangelizing Great Britain through the British Orthodox Church, and it would be hypocritical to support that while opposing the EO's in Africa.

I've heard of no conflict between EO and OO there either.

Whatever.  As Ozgeorge indicated, this is getting to be a petty discussion.
Given history, especially history in Africa, they were valid questions.


 
I suggest we all just pray for Orthodox missionaries everywhere.
Amen!  There is soon, Lord willing, going to be freedom to evangelize South Sudan soon.  Let's get to it!
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« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2011, 03:41:44 AM »

Oh goodness gracious, Isa.  You sound like the father in the Big Fat Greek Wedding movie.  Perhaps you can explain to us again how the word "kimono" is Greek.   Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2011, 04:21:28 AM »

Oh goodness gracious, Isa.  You sound like the father in the Big Fat Greek Wedding movie.  Perhaps you can explain to us again how the word "kimono" is Greek.   Smiley
No, but I can tell you how tempura is Portuguese  Grin.

I'm sure many are dropping dead seeing me defend the Greeks.

Btw, just so everyone else knows, we have a lot of Armenians in Egypt, and they have been important there for a thousand years.  Our first modern Christian Prime Minister, IIRC, was an Armenian.

And while I'm at it, a lot of them were brought in with Muhammad Ali, the founder of the Egyptian Royal Family, whose family came from, and who was born in GREECE (although he was Albanian, like Ataturk, also born in Greece).
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« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2011, 08:49:55 AM »


Him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutychius_of_Alexandria
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« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2011, 11:10:54 AM »

LOL. Just checking that you were not confusing him with Eutyches of Constantinople (I trusted you didn't, but yes, many do).
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                           and both come out of your mouth
Salpy
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Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2011, 06:21:49 PM »

OK, here we go:  How kimono comes from Greek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL9whwwTK6I&feature=related
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HabteSelassie
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« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2011, 06:32:16 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Hear! Hear! I pray for the day when we are just talking about the rites of Alexandria, Axum and Constantinople in a united Church which spans the continent with full communion of one Pope of Alexandria with the Patriarchs of Ethiopia and Eritrea, laying the foundation for new Patriarchs across Africa.

^^ Amen Amen.

Blessed and Let it Be Blessed!

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
deusveritasest
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« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2011, 07:22:42 AM »

and the Greek Patriarchy in Alexandria should ease its claims as the Bishop of All of Africa, these titles should rightfully be held by HH Pope Shenouda III and subsequently through mutual Apostolic authority be transmitted through the Patriarchy in Addis Ababa/Axum to have spiritual authority across Africa, as Africans.

Give authority to schismatics?

Uh....

How can the OO be attacked as schismatics in their own forum?
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ialmisry
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« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2011, 08:23:40 AM »

and the Greek Patriarchy in Alexandria should ease its claims as the Bishop of All of Africa, these titles should rightfully be held by HH Pope Shenouda III and subsequently through mutual Apostolic authority be transmitted through the Patriarchy in Addis Ababa/Axum to have spiritual authority across Africa, as Africans.

Give authority to schismatics?

Uh....

How can the OO be attacked as schismatics in their own forum?
The post has been moved here. Originally it was in Faith issues or some such forum.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2011, 09:10:33 AM »

and the Greek Patriarchy in Alexandria should ease its claims as the Bishop of All of Africa, these titles should rightfully be held by HH Pope Shenouda III and subsequently through mutual Apostolic authority be transmitted through the Patriarchy in Addis Ababa/Axum to have spiritual authority across Africa, as Africans.

Give authority to schismatics?

Uh....

How can the OO be attacked as schismatics in their own forum?

How could it be an attack. We are schismatics for the OOs, the OOs are schismatics for us.
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Byzantinism
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« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2011, 04:36:58 PM »

and the Greek Patriarchy in Alexandria should ease its claims as the Bishop of All of Africa, these titles should rightfully be held by HH Pope Shenouda III and subsequently through mutual Apostolic authority be transmitted through the Patriarchy in Addis Ababa/Axum to have spiritual authority across Africa, as Africans.

Give authority to schismatics?

Uh....

How can the OO be attacked as schismatics in their own forum?
The post has been moved here. Originally it was in Faith issues or some such forum.

Oh. That makes more sense.
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I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
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« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2011, 04:39:02 PM »

and the Greek Patriarchy in Alexandria should ease its claims as the Bishop of All of Africa, these titles should rightfully be held by HH Pope Shenouda III and subsequently through mutual Apostolic authority be transmitted through the Patriarchy in Addis Ababa/Axum to have spiritual authority across Africa, as Africans.

Give authority to schismatics?

Uh....

How can the OO be attacked as schismatics in their own forum?

How could it be an attack. We are schismatics for the OOs, the OOs are schismatics for us.

True enough. But in the context of the OO forum, it would be like a Romanist calling the EO schismatics on Faith Issues, which I'm pretty sure would not be tolerated.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 04:39:48 PM by deusveritasest » Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
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