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Author Topic: Augustine and the Eucharist  (Read 977 times) Average Rating: 0
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sprtslvr1973
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« on: February 26, 2011, 07:41:55 PM »

Can anyone share with me proof of Augustine's belief or disbelief in the Real Presence of the Eucharist? I am really curious.
Thanks
Ian
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« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2011, 07:43:33 PM »

Quote
"That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, IS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. Through that bread and wine the Lord Christ willed to commend HIS BODY AND BLOOD, WHICH HE POURED OUT FOR US UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS." (Sermons 227)

"The Lord Jesus wanted those whose eyes were held lest they should recognize him, to recognize Him in the breaking of the bread [Luke 24:16,30-35]. The faithful know what I am saying. They know Christ in the breaking of the bread. For not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, BECOMES CHRIST'S BODY." (Sermons 234:2)

"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that THE BREAD IS THE BODY OF CHRIST AND THE CHALICE [WINE] THE BLOOD OF CHRIST." (Sermons 272)

"How this ['And he was carried in his own hands'] should be understood literally of David, we cannot discover; but we can discover how it is meant of Christ. FOR CHRIST WAS CARRIED IN HIS OWN HANDS, WHEN, REFERRING TO HIS OWN BODY, HE SAID: 'THIS IS MY BODY.' FOR HE CARRIED THAT BODY IN HIS HANDS." (Psalms 33:1:10)

"Was not Christ IMMOLATED only once in His very Person? In the Sacrament, nevertheless, He is IMMOLATED for the people not only on every Easter Solemnity but on every day; and a man would not be lying if, when asked, he were to reply that Christ is being IMMOLATED." (Letters 98:9)

"Christ is both the Priest, OFFERING Himself, and Himself the Victim. He willed that the SACRAMENTAL SIGN of this should be the daily Sacrifice of the Church, who, since the Church is His body and He the Head, learns to OFFER herself through Him." (City of God 10:20)

"By those sacrifices of the Old Law, this one Sacrifice is signified, in which there is a true remission of sins; but not only is no one forbidden to take as food the Blood of this Sacrifice, rather, all who wish to possess life are exhorted to drink thereof." (Questions on the Heptateuch 3:57)

"Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead find relief through the piety of their friends and relatives who are still alive, when the Sacrifice of the Mediator is OFFERED for them, or when alms are given in the church." (Ench Faith, Hope, Love 29:110)

"But by the prayers of the Holy Church, and by the SALVIFIC SACRIFICE, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. FOR THE WHOLE CHURCH OBSERVES THIS PRACTICE WHICH WAS HANDED DOWN BY THE FATHERS that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the Sacrifice itself; and the Sacrifice is OFFERED also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, the works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death." (Sermons 172:2)

"...I turn to Christ, because it is He whom I seek here; and I discover how the earth is adored without impiety, how without impiety the footstool of His feet is adored. For He received earth from earth; because flesh is from the earth, and He took flesh from the flesh of Mary. He walked here in the same flesh, AND GAVE US THE SAME FLESH TO BE EATEN UNTO SALVATION. BUT NO ONE EATS THAT FLESH UNLESS FIRST HE ADORES IT; and thus it is discovered how such a footstool of the Lord's feet is adored; AND NOT ONLY DO WE NOT SIN BY ADORING, WE DO SIN BY NOT ADORING." (Psalms 98:9)"
http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/num30.htm
« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 07:43:52 PM by Aposphet » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2011, 08:23:08 PM »

Oh, snap! Augustine!
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sprtslvr1973
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« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2011, 10:53:09 PM »

Oh, snap! Augustine!
I was not slamming him. I was just curious as he seems to be someone that both Roman Catholics and Calvinists claim
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« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2011, 11:53:29 PM »

Oh, snap! Augustine!
I was not slamming him. I was just curious as he seems to be someone that both Roman Catholics and Calvinists claim

Oh, no. I was just being... silly. I had said that in a previous thread, and when I saw your post, I felt inclined to joke again.
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« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2011, 12:22:12 AM »

St. Augustine is like the last kid to be picked in theological dodgeball and always the first to be out. Maybe it happens because of the guilt of original sin *shrugs*
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 12:22:28 AM by Aposphet » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2011, 07:36:57 AM »

St. Augustine is like the last kid to be picked in theological dodgeball and always the first to be out. Maybe it happens because of the guilt of original sin *shrugs*
Maybe in Orthodox circles. In Western circles he seems more like the kid who everyone wanted be like yet no one was really sure why
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« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2011, 10:54:28 PM »

In Western circles he seems more like the kid who everyone wanted be like yet no one was really sure why

Very nice description.  Wink
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« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2011, 11:02:46 PM »

St. Augustine was a genius, no doubt about it, but when it comes to Orthodox theology he's probably on the bottom of the list from my experience on viewing the Orthodox opinion of him.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 11:03:09 PM by Aposphet » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2011, 11:20:59 PM »

St. Augustine was a genius, no doubt about it, but when it comes to Orthodox theology he's probably on the bottom of the list from my experience on viewing the Orthodox opinion of him.

Bottom of the list of what group of people? Are Pelagius, Diodore, and Origen, for instance, not within that group?
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« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2011, 06:46:58 AM »

Bottom of the list in terms of those who are still, at least marginally, accepted.

He's a really tough case for me; my reading of the Confessions in a classroom setting, actually, was one of 2 or 3 major factors that brought me to the RC church, and Augustine was my confirmation name. That said, even before I came to Orthodoxy, and as I explored his other ideas further, I really wasnt sure what to think. Of course, as I'm on my way to Orthodoxy, this has only been compounded.

My view is this: that he was a genius, that his story of conversion, especially considering the course of his life, is inspiring and miraculous, that his mother is a Saint no doubt, that he contributed some very important ideas, but that also, in his zeal, and perhaps in a state of deep shame and desire to repent, he went a bit off the deep end in some of his theology.
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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2011, 07:08:59 AM »

Good posts by everyone. But as the originator of this topic, let me remind people that the subject is not how 'smart' or 'good' Augustine was, but rather his understanding of the Eucharist, namely the Real Presence.
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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2011, 07:26:32 AM »

I realized that after I posted it. Sorry!

Out of curiousity, what caused there to be confusion regarding St. Augustine and the Eucharist? I've never seen anything to suggest that he did not believe inthe Real Presence, I've only seen him affirm it...
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« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2011, 07:33:06 AM »

I realized that after I posted it. Sorry!

Out of curiousity, what caused there to be confusion regarding St. Augustine and the Eucharist? I've never seen anything to suggest that he did not believe inthe Real Presence, I've only seen him affirm it...

I think for me it was two issues: 1) many staunch opponents of the RP claim Augistine as one of their original voices. I am speaking namely of Calvinists and 2) When I tried to do my own research, it was hard to find definitive answers either way
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« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2011, 09:18:15 AM »

...and Augustine was my confirmation name...

That could be your Chrismation name too. Maybe it was St. Augustine's intercession which sparked your interest in Orthodoxy. Wink
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