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Author Topic: Met. Jonah to be put on leave  (Read 24773 times) Average Rating: 0
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88Devin12
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« Reply #225 on: May 01, 2011, 12:45:53 PM »

Mr. Dreher was outed as the man behind "OCATruth". What a ridiculous character he is!

So what? Big freakin' deal? Both OCATruth and OCANews.org are stupid, simply slinging mud at one another and taking pot-shots at one another... The behavior of Mark Stokoe, Jesse Cone, Rod Dreher, and Jason Folsom is certainly not commendable, and in my opinion, none of the behavior exhibited on either site is becoming of an Orthodox Christian.

Just because Lent has ended didn't mean they had to start their mud-slinging again. They all really need to grow up and focus more on what is more important.

I love Frederica Matthews-Greene's recent podcast where she didn't directly discuss any controversy, but she referred to Bishops as not really being "Orthodox". We have Bishops because it's a part of our tradition, and because it is what has been handed down to us from the Apostles for organization and unity. However, it is much more important that we focus on our lives, and on living as Orthodox Christians. It's simply not Orthodox to sit and complain about what hierarch said what, and what Orthodox Christian is saying to another.

I guarantee you that most of us would not say the things in real life to one another that we say here online. Even if we did say them in real life, I would bet our spiritual Fathers would tell us to repent and ask for forgiveness of one another. I think we are all-too often ready to take up the example of St. Nicholas and we are willing to exert what we think is "righteous anger" and slap around our opposition, without realizing that it's just Satan who is dividing us, and sometimes, the things that divide us aren't worth fighting for.

Both OCANews.org and OCATruth.com are not behaving in an Orthodox manner, and I don't think any of us should be commending either side, both are in the wrong. It would be very commendable, and very Orthodox if they both simply stopped their mud-slinging, and bowed before one another, asking for each other's forgiveness, and just accept to agree to disagree; and then move on to just trying to be Orthodox, and not trying to be Crusaders.

(and I think we all should take note of this as well, most of all myself)
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« Reply #226 on: May 01, 2011, 01:34:17 PM »

I really pray that it is not true that Father Joseph Fester called Bishop Mark a "turd"...Thats just awful...Why don't we just all take a deep breath and pray for each other...Poor Rod Dreher ..looked like he is just been manipulated and bought it or ,perhaps,is a very nefarious man. I certainly disagree with the politics of the Templeton Foundation but I doubt they will keep him on their staff after this foolishness.
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« Reply #227 on: May 01, 2011, 01:40:51 PM »

Mr. Dreher was outed as the man behind "OCATruth". What a ridiculous character he is!

So what? Big freakin' deal? Both OCATruth and OCANews.org are stupid, simply slinging mud at one another and taking pot-shots at one another... The behavior of Mark Stokoe, Jesse Cone, Rod Dreher, and Jason Folsom is certainly not commendable, and in my opinion, none of the behavior exhibited on either site is becoming of an Orthodox Christian.

Just because Lent has ended didn't mean they had to start their mud-slinging again. They all really need to grow up and focus more on what is more important.

I love Frederica Matthews-Greene's recent podcast where she didn't directly discuss any controversy, but she referred to Bishops as not really being "Orthodox". We have Bishops because it's a part of our tradition, and because it is what has been handed down to us from the Apostles for organization and unity. However, it is much more important that we focus on our lives, and on living as Orthodox Christians. It's simply not Orthodox to sit and complain about what hierarch said what, and what Orthodox Christian is saying to another.

I guarantee you that most of us would not say the things in real life to one another that we say here online. Even if we did say them in real life, I would bet our spiritual Fathers would tell us to repent and ask for forgiveness of one another. I think we are all-too often ready to take up the example of St. Nicholas and we are willing to exert what we think is "righteous anger" and slap around our opposition, without realizing that it's just Satan who is dividing us, and sometimes, the things that divide us aren't worth fighting for.

Both OCANews.org and OCATruth.com are not behaving in an Orthodox manner, and I don't think any of us should be commending either side, both are in the wrong. It would be very commendable, and very Orthodox if they both simply stopped their mud-slinging, and bowed before one another, asking for each other's forgiveness, and just accept to agree to disagree; and then move on to just trying to be Orthodox, and not trying to be Crusaders.

(and I think we all should take note of this as well, most of all myself)

Is there a link to the above referenced podcast? I am interested in the context in which Ms. Matthews-Greene made the alleged statement about Bishops not "really being 'Orthodox.' " Thank you.
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« Reply #228 on: May 01, 2011, 01:44:31 PM »

I don't even want to choose "sides" in this shameful episode in our beloved OCA.  I often ponder what led us to this point and how it might have been avoided, all rather pointless questions now since factions and tensions have developed within the Holy Synod.  Who knows where the truth is in all of this?  I certainly don't.  I often think of the question the late Archbishop Job posed during another crisis not that long ago: How can we expect our Lord to bless us with this going on?

Kyrie eleison!
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« Reply #229 on: May 01, 2011, 01:50:07 PM »

Poor Rod Dreher (snip) I certainly disagree with the politics of the Templeton Foundation but I doubt they will keep him on their staff after this foolishness.

Meh. If they hired him after reading his Beliefnet blog, they won't fire him over this.
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SDMPNS
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« Reply #230 on: May 01, 2011, 01:52:13 PM »

Who is Frederica Matthews-Green to say who is Orthodox and who isn't?
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SDMPNS
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« Reply #231 on: May 01, 2011, 01:54:39 PM »

Poor Rod Dreher (snip) I certainly disagree with the politics of the Templeton Foundation but I doubt they will keep him on their staff after this foolishness.

Meh. If they hired him after reading his Beliefnet blog, they won't fire him over this.

Thats true...I should have thought of that...it was a bunch of drivel...why does every convert want his own blog or to be tonsured a reader? Oh well...looks like "Crunchy" got conned!
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88Devin12
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« Reply #232 on: May 01, 2011, 02:07:51 PM »

Mr. Dreher was outed as the man behind "OCATruth". What a ridiculous character he is!

So what? Big freakin' deal? Both OCATruth and OCANews.org are stupid, simply slinging mud at one another and taking pot-shots at one another... The behavior of Mark Stokoe, Jesse Cone, Rod Dreher, and Jason Folsom is certainly not commendable, and in my opinion, none of the behavior exhibited on either site is becoming of an Orthodox Christian.

Just because Lent has ended didn't mean they had to start their mud-slinging again. They all really need to grow up and focus more on what is more important.

I love Frederica Matthews-Greene's recent podcast where she didn't directly discuss any controversy, but she referred to Bishops as not really being "Orthodox". We have Bishops because it's a part of our tradition, and because it is what has been handed down to us from the Apostles for organization and unity. However, it is much more important that we focus on our lives, and on living as Orthodox Christians. It's simply not Orthodox to sit and complain about what hierarch said what, and what Orthodox Christian is saying to another.

I guarantee you that most of us would not say the things in real life to one another that we say here online. Even if we did say them in real life, I would bet our spiritual Fathers would tell us to repent and ask for forgiveness of one another. I think we are all-too often ready to take up the example of St. Nicholas and we are willing to exert what we think is "righteous anger" and slap around our opposition, without realizing that it's just Satan who is dividing us, and sometimes, the things that divide us aren't worth fighting for.

Both OCANews.org and OCATruth.com are not behaving in an Orthodox manner, and I don't think any of us should be commending either side, both are in the wrong. It would be very commendable, and very Orthodox if they both simply stopped their mud-slinging, and bowed before one another, asking for each other's forgiveness, and just accept to agree to disagree; and then move on to just trying to be Orthodox, and not trying to be Crusaders.

(and I think we all should take note of this as well, most of all myself)

Is there a link to the above referenced podcast? I am interested in the context in which Ms. Matthews-Greene made the alleged statement about Bishops not "really being 'Orthodox.' " Thank you.

More correctly, she said, "thats not Orthodoxy"... It must have been my fault that I didn't word that correctly
I think, as she says it, thats not what Orthodoxy is about. It's not that we shouldn't have Bishops, it's just that Bishops and Church Politics isn't what Orthodoxy is about.

Here is the Podcast:
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/frederica/thats_not_orthodoxy

(also, SDMPNS, she never said anyone isn't Orthodox)
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SDMPNS
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« Reply #233 on: May 01, 2011, 03:53:11 PM »


(also, SDMPNS, she never said anyone isn't Orthodox)
[/quote]

Good....not that I'd ever listen to her...
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88Devin12
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« Reply #234 on: May 01, 2011, 03:55:12 PM »

Quote

(also, SDMPNS, she never said anyone isn't Orthodox)

Good....not that I'd ever listen to her...

Why not? She's one of the most beloved Orthodox people in America... Have you ever listened to her?
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« Reply #235 on: May 01, 2011, 04:05:04 PM »

I guarantee you that most of us would not say the things in real life to one another that we say here online.

I promise you would hear worse from me (not directed at you in particular). No false humility either.

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« Reply #236 on: May 01, 2011, 04:16:03 PM »

Who is Frederica Matthews-Green to say who is Orthodox and who isn't?
She is a clarvoyant eldress. Now stop questioning her authority and go to confession Angry Angry Angry Angry
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #237 on: May 01, 2011, 04:37:48 PM »

Who is Frederica Matthews-Green to say who is Orthodox and who isn't?
She is a clarvoyant eldress. Now stop questioning her authority and go to confession Angry Angry Angry Angry

To each his own, but I would want to emphasize just one little point. Why do some of us insult a person we really don't know? What sort of Christian charity does this exemplify? Finally, does deemphasizing a stranger, a woman to boot, makes some of us feel bigger men, better persons?
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« Reply #238 on: May 01, 2011, 05:08:21 PM »

I am not insulting her..I've heard her speak in person and she isn't someone I'd seek out...Metropolitan Kalistos Ware yes...Father Hopko yes... but Frederica Matthews -Green no...she is just too cutesy for me personally
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« Reply #239 on: May 01, 2011, 05:19:05 PM »

I am not insulting her..I've heard her speak in person and she isn't someone I'd seek out...Metropolitan Kalistos Ware yes...Father Hopko yes... but Frederica Matthews -Green no...she is just too cutesy for me personally

I agree, she spoke at a diocesan convention a few years back and I had a similar reaction, I didn't dislike her, but she was not my personal cup of tea. I am glad that Devin clarified her comments as I would have thought that her husband's Bishop would not have taken too kindly to what first was stated.

Sadly, politics does come hand in hand with the church - for better or for worse. I remember in the days before blogs and social networking, that letters with no return addresses, mailed from towns without a parish and often either typed or pasted together like ransom notes used to be the main means of spreading trouble across a parish or a diocese. Now trouble and gossip is instantaneous but worthy of the same destination. My dad used the 'circular file', we can use the trash button or delete on our computer.
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« Reply #240 on: May 01, 2011, 07:18:35 PM »

I really pray that it is not true that Father Joseph Fester called Bishop Mark a "turd"...

I have to admit that a Protopresbyter and cathedral dean referring to a bishop as a "turd" that should be "smoked out" is rather astounding.  Something is wrong, and my inclination is it is not the OCA News web site.  It seems to me though the leadership has changed, many of the same problems have persisted in this particular jurisdiction.  I think that is hard for people to come to terms with having had expectations raised so high when the new Metropolitan came in.
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« Reply #241 on: May 01, 2011, 07:25:19 PM »

I really pray that it is not true that Father Joseph Fester called Bishop Mark a "turd"...

I have to admit that a Protopresbyter and cathedral dean referring to a bishop as a "turd" that should be "smoked out" is rather astounding.  Something is wrong, and my inclination is it is not the OCA News web site.  It seems to me though the leadership has changed, many of the same problems have persisted in this particular jurisdiction.  I think that is hard for people to come to terms with having had expectations raised so high when the new Metropolitan came in.

Like I said earlier, a grain of salt with everything these days.  Pretty much all the maneuvering and politicking that's come to light recently (again, from both sides) shows that something is indeed rotten in the state of Denmark.  Hopefully this mess turns out better than Hamlet.
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« Reply #242 on: May 01, 2011, 09:21:12 PM »

Today at church (I'm in the OCA Midwest Diocese), I was talking to a few people, all either cradle Orthodox or in the Church for at least five years, about these issues. It was in the context of seeing all the members of the Synod this weekend at Bishop Matthias' consecration, looking at them and wondering what was going through their brains. I'm praying nothing explosive comes out of the Synod and MC meetings this week

I can't go into the whole discussion, but what essentially transpired is that people who were very open talking about the OCA's "time of troubles" under Met. Herman are now extremely reluctant to talk about this situation at all. I'm not really sure why. I'd say almost all in the parish have no idea as to what is going on, or that anything is going on. And these are people who kept themselves informed on the situation during 2006-2009.
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« Reply #243 on: May 02, 2011, 08:42:15 AM »

The latest post on OCA News is starting to make sense of this for me.
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88Devin12
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« Reply #244 on: May 02, 2011, 08:51:50 AM »

The latest post on OCA News is starting to make sense of this for me.
I'm starting to think that maybe this thread needs to be sent to either the Free-For-All section, or the Politics section. So much of the information on here is based on hearsay, rumors, and the mud-slinging between two unofficial, private websites.

And while this certainly fits with current events and "Christian News", I just fail to see how any of this has anything to do with our salvation and why we are bothering to even argue about it.

I think, that even if you support OCANews.org, or it's opponent, OCATruth.com; we all must recognize that most information from these websites is simply hearsay and rumor, both of which are things that we are taught to shy away from as Orthodox Christians.

I believe it is time for all of us to step back and consider if this is really a matter for us laity to fight one other over, and whether or not we should allow this to divide us. Christ says, "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." - Matthew 26:52... I believe we can also apply this to our willingness to take up the sword against one another in an allegorical sense. St. Peter was defending Christ with his sword, and yet Christ (I believe) made it clear that we aren't to fight his battles, we aren't Crusaders on his behalf. Certainly we should seek for justice, but we don't seek justice as the world seeks justice, we don't seek vengeance or punishment, but repentance.

Being here in Greece has taught me how frivolous these issues are. I am lucky I do not speak Greek, because I an ignorant of the controversies and arguments present here. If one Bishop offends another, I don't know, and I don't care. As long as I can freely work on my salvation, and receive the Eucharist at all Orthodox Churches, then that is all I feel I need to be concerned with. Everything else is just gossip and I believe, are all ploys by Satan to distract us from our real duty as Orthodox Christians.

I don't care what Metropolitan Jonah has said or done, it has no effect on me, or really, any other Orthodox Christians around me. If he has done wrong, that is between him and the person he offended, and it is not my job to force his hand into repentance. If wrong has been done, then there are those who have been appointed by the Apostles to deal with things accordingly. We have a hierarchy so that we don't have to fight this battles, it is a "shield" so that we can focus on what is truly important, our own salvation and the salvation of those around us. If anything distracts us from this, it is truly Anti-Christ.
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augustin717
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« Reply #245 on: May 02, 2011, 09:15:46 AM »

The soap opera only gets juicier  Wink
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« Reply #246 on: May 02, 2011, 09:19:01 AM »

The soap opera only gets juicier  Wink
And with that, it gets more and more unedifying...

Orthodoxy should not be some soap opera for our entertainment...
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augustin717
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« Reply #247 on: May 02, 2011, 09:20:24 AM »

The soap opera only gets juicier  Wink
And with that, it gets more and more unedifying...

Orthodoxy should not be some soap opera for our entertainment...
You watch it for fun, not for edification.
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« Reply #248 on: May 02, 2011, 09:22:24 AM »

There's a difference between fanning the flames, and dealing with them openly to put them out.  Regardless, one can ignore a fire, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.  It seems part of the issue with the previous crisis may have been the Ostrich approach.  It seems like that may not have worked.

I'm 99.9999% sure 99.9999% of the discussions here have nothing to do with salvation.
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88Devin12
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« Reply #249 on: May 02, 2011, 09:32:53 AM »

The soap opera only gets juicier  Wink
And with that, it gets more and more unedifying...

Orthodoxy should not be some soap opera for our entertainment...
You watch it for fun, not for edification.
And so then what is the point of it? Do we rejoice at the sins of another? Do we watch someone's fall for entertainment? If so, then God help our souls... We are called to be Holy, and not to be like the world.

AMM, but it is really our place to try to put the fire out? All we seem to be doing is arguing with one another. Instead, I would argue that we can relay our feelings to our Priests and Hierarchs, and hopefully they will represent us well...

There is nothing any hierarch can do to hurt the Church or the faith.
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« Reply #250 on: May 02, 2011, 09:37:57 AM »

The soap opera only gets juicier  Wink
And with that, it gets more and more unedifying...

Orthodoxy should not be some soap opera for our entertainment...
You watch it for fun, not for edification.
And so then what is the point of it? Do we rejoice at the sins of another? Do we watch someone's fall for entertainment? If so, then God help our souls... We are called to be Holy, and not to be like the world.

AMM, but it is really our place to try to put the fire out? All we seem to be doing is arguing with one another. Instead, I would argue that we can relay our feelings to our Priests and Hierarchs, and hopefully they will represent us well...

There is nothing any hierarch can do to hurt the Church or the faith.
While I somehow understand your feelings, they still betray a very clericalist attitude. Comm'on, the least we could do for and get from the hierarchy is, oftentimes, a homeric laugh.
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« Reply #251 on: May 02, 2011, 09:47:40 AM »

Well, just think of it this way... fights and disputes and such have been going on since the time of the Apostles. Both Sts. Paul and John mention not just competing factions, but specific people who opposed them and were causing trouble...

"Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words." - 2 Tim. 4:14-15

"I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church." - 3 Jn. 9-10

And then there was the disputes between even Saints, such as the famous one between Paul and Peter (Gal. 2), and also Sts. Paul and Barnabas:

"And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark. But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work. And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other" - Acts 15:37-39
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« Reply #252 on: May 02, 2011, 10:02:03 AM »

Quote
Instead, I would argue that we can relay our feelings to our Priests and Hierarchs, and hopefully they will represent us well...

Except when they don't, hence the reason I think OCA News exists.
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« Reply #253 on: May 02, 2011, 10:07:28 AM »

The latest post on OCA News is starting to make sense of this for me.
I'm starting to think that maybe this thread needs to be sent to either the Free-For-All section, or the Politics section. So much of the information on here is based on hearsay, rumors, and the mud-slinging between two unofficial, private websites.

And while this certainly fits with current events and "Christian News", I just fail to see how any of this has anything to do with our salvation and why we are bothering to even argue about it.

I think, that even if you support OCANews.org, or it's opponent, OCATruth.com; we all must recognize that most information from these websites is simply hearsay and rumor, both of which are things that we are taught to shy away from as Orthodox Christians.

I believe it is time for all of us to step back and consider if this is really a matter for us laity to fight one other over, and whether or not we should allow this to divide us. Christ says, "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." - Matthew 26:52... I believe we can also apply this to our willingness to take up the sword against one another in an allegorical sense. St. Peter was defending Christ with his sword, and yet Christ (I believe) made it clear that we aren't to fight his battles, we aren't Crusaders on his behalf. Certainly we should seek for justice, but we don't seek justice as the world seeks justice, we don't seek vengeance or punishment, but repentance.

Being here in Greece has taught me how frivolous these issues are. I am lucky I do not speak Greek, because I an ignorant of the controversies and arguments present here. If one Bishop offends another, I don't know, and I don't care. As long as I can freely work on my salvation, and receive the Eucharist at all Orthodox Churches, then that is all I feel I need to be concerned with. Everything else is just gossip and I believe, are all ploys by Satan to distract us from our real duty as Orthodox Christians.

I don't care what Metropolitan Jonah has said or done, it has no effect on me, or really, any other Orthodox Christians around me. If he has done wrong, that is between him and the person he offended, and it is not my job to force his hand into repentance. If wrong has been done, then there are those who have been appointed by the Apostles to deal with things accordingly. We have a hierarchy so that we don't have to fight this battles, it is a "shield" so that we can focus on what is truly important, our own salvation and the salvation of those around us. If anything distracts us from this, it is truly Anti-Christ.

Your post is a home run IMHO. Many years ago my father supported a candidate for Bishop who lost a tightly contested election to succeed our Bishop who died suddenly. The Diocese was split in an emotionally charged between the two, finely qualified candidates. Both ultimately became Bishops, although not in the same jurisdiction. Anyway, many who supported the losing candidate remained bitter for years and years. But my father made his peace with the new Bishop and moved on. I asked him about it years later as some of his friends and colleagues even 'switched' jurisdictions over this issue, as to how he could have moved on so seemlessly. His answer was much like that which Devin expressed in his post. He said that we are charged to believe that the Holy Spirit is at work in the choice of our leades and absent clear proof of human fraud or improper acts in the selection process, we have to move forward, we have one Church and one Bishop and we can't allow our personal preferences to interfere with the greater mission of the Church. He lived through a period of much bitter division and schism and persevered until the end of his life as a faithful priest. There are no allegations of serious impropriety as in the OCA's period of 'troubles' in the last decade, so I agree, let the Bishops work it out and let the rest of us pray for our brothers and worry about problems within our own 'home' Churches rather than someone else's. Christ is Risen!
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« Reply #254 on: May 02, 2011, 10:09:36 AM »

The soap opera only gets juicier  Wink
And with that, it gets more and more unedifying...

Orthodoxy should not be some soap opera for our entertainment...
You watch it for fun, not for edification.
And so then what is the point of it? Do we rejoice at the sins of another? Do we watch someone's fall for entertainment? If so, then God help our souls... We are called to be Holy, and not to be like the world.

AMM, but it is really our place to try to put the fire out? All we seem to be doing is arguing with one another. Instead, I would argue that we can relay our feelings to our Priests and Hierarchs, and hopefully they will represent us well...

There is nothing any hierarch can do to hurt the Church or the faith.

While I wish I could agree with you that there is 'nothing' any hierarch can do to hurt the Church or the Faith, sadly, history tells us that is not always the case.
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« Reply #255 on: May 02, 2011, 11:22:55 AM »

The soap opera only gets juicier  Wink
And with that, it gets more and more unedifying...

Orthodoxy should not be some soap opera for our entertainment...
You watch it for fun, not for edification.
And so then what is the point of it? Do we rejoice at the sins of another? Do we watch someone's fall for entertainment? If so, then God help our souls... We are called to be Holy, and not to be like the world.

AMM, but it is really our place to try to put the fire out? All we seem to be doing is arguing with one another. Instead, I would argue that we can relay our feelings to our Priests and Hierarchs, and hopefully they will represent us well...

There is nothing any hierarch can do to hurt the Church or the faith.

While I wish I could agree with you that there is 'nothing' any hierarch can do to hurt the Church or the Faith, sadly, history tells us that is not always the case.

Actually on the contrary, history has shown us that is ALWAYS the case...
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« Reply #256 on: May 04, 2011, 08:56:17 PM »

What's happening in Chicago?  Other than Fr. Joseph's removal from the OCA (quite a dramatic development), doesn't anyone have news about the actions or discussions of the Holy Synod or the Metropolitan Council?
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« Reply #257 on: May 04, 2011, 09:56:52 PM »

What's happening in Chicago?  Other than Fr. Joseph's removal from the OCA (quite a dramatic development), doesn't anyone have news about the actions or discussions of the Holy Synod or the Metropolitan Council?

He was not removed from the OCA:
Quote
OCANews.org, however, has confirmed that parish council members in DC received phone calls late last night informing them that Fester had been “relieved of duty”, rather than “released from the OCA.” Sources in Chicago later confirmed that decision of the Metropolitan.
Source: http://ocanews.org/news/SynodMeetsInChicago5.2.11.html
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« Reply #258 on: May 04, 2011, 11:17:20 PM »

I doubt it will end with being merely relieved of duty...
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« Reply #259 on: May 05, 2011, 09:22:13 AM »

What's happening in Chicago?  Other than Fr. Joseph's removal from the OCA (quite a dramatic development), doesn't anyone have news about the actions or discussions of the Holy Synod or the Metropolitan Council?

He was not removed from the OCA:
Quote
OCANews.org, however, has confirmed that parish council members in DC received phone calls late last night informing them that Fester had been “relieved of duty”, rather than “released from the OCA.” Sources in Chicago later confirmed that decision of the Metropolitan.
Source: http://ocanews.org/news/SynodMeetsInChicago5.2.11.html

If he was knee deep in this like it appears he was, that would be a positive move... but I sure do wish that the official OCA website would put these things out in a more timely manner.  I don't like receiving my church news from the likes of OCANews.
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« Reply #260 on: May 05, 2011, 10:13:11 AM »

but I sure do wish that the official OCA website would put these things out in a more timely manner.  I don't like receiving my church news from the likes of OCANews.

Same here.
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« Reply #261 on: May 05, 2011, 11:31:38 AM »

but I sure do wish that the official OCA website would put these things out in a more timely manner.  I don't like receiving my church news from the likes of OCANews.

Same here.

I know how you feel; I have hated to listen to the major networks' news for decades now. It was not so much their biased reporting that bothered me but their claim to objectivity. That's why cable news is so much the better, where one can taker the conservative slant from Fox News and the liberal slant from all the others. On the other hand, since all news are slanted, the Internet sites also play a part in rounding out the picture. As for news about the Church, the official organs will always contain far less information than sites like this one or OCA News. BTW, no matter one thinks of the current crisis, IMO OCA News had been immensely helpful to Orthodoxy in America in past crises.
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« Reply #262 on: May 05, 2011, 11:34:36 AM »

I am not taking sides on this sad issue, but for what it is worth, there has been some discussion about the alleged confidentiality of e-mail information stored on 'corporate' computers. Setting the moral issues aside, the legal ones are fairly clear.

There is no expectation of privacy for material stored on corporate computers.

When I was a municipal attorney, my municipality adopted the recommended sample New York IT policy some years ago and it contained language like this:

"This system and its applications and data belong to (name of entity).  Access and use is limited
to authorized users for authorized purposes.  Actual or attempted unauthorized use is not permitted
and may be a crime subjecting you to disciplinary, criminal, civil, and/or administrative action.  You
are responsible for any activity attributed to you or your user-ID upon entering this system, and are
expected to:

1) Comply with all relevant federal, state, and agency policies, laws, rules, and regulations,
2) Access only systems and information to which you have been authorized for authorized purposes,
3) Not attach or install unauthorized software or hardware to this network or a workstation connected
to it,
4) Report any abuse or misuse of this system to the (name IT Department) and
if applicable your supervisor and agency Information Security Officer and cooperate fully in any
investigation.

Users have no legitimate expectation of privacy while using this system or any data in it. Any use
may be monitored and all information may be accessed, read, copied, used or disclosed by and to
authorized personnel for official purposes without additional prior notice to users.
  This notice shall
not be deemed to waive the rights of any person who may be the subject of data in this system.
Proceeding with system logon means that you have read and accept the above terms and conditions."

This generally restates the law of the state of New York in this matter.

This of course does not answer questions about the possible dissemination of such information beyond authorized corporate supervisors, but it is clear that such persons have absolute access to the information contained therein.

The disclosure of confidential sources of leaked information to the media is protected  as well by New York law and may apply to bloggers.
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« Reply #263 on: May 05, 2011, 11:36:08 AM »

The soap opera only gets juicier  Wink
And with that, it gets more and more unedifying...

Orthodoxy should not be some soap opera for our entertainment...
You watch it for fun, not for edification.

Well, perhaps this is inculturation, in a sick way.
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« Reply #264 on: May 05, 2011, 11:58:52 AM »

I am not taking sides on this sad issue, but for what it is worth, there has been some discussion about the alleged confidentiality of e-mail information stored on 'corporate' computers. Setting the moral issues aside, the legal ones are fairly clear.

There is no expectation of privacy for material stored on corporate computers.

When I was a municipal attorney, my municipality adopted the recommended sample New York IT policy some years ago and it contained language like this:

"This system and its applications and data belong to (name of entity).  Access and use is limited
to authorized users for authorized purposes.  Actual or attempted unauthorized use is not permitted
and may be a crime subjecting you to disciplinary, criminal, civil, and/or administrative action.  You
are responsible for any activity attributed to you or your user-ID upon entering this system, and are
expected to:

1) Comply with all relevant federal, state, and agency policies, laws, rules, and regulations,
2) Access only systems and information to which you have been authorized for authorized purposes,
3) Not attach or install unauthorized software or hardware to this network or a workstation connected
to it,
4) Report any abuse or misuse of this system to the (name IT Department) and
if applicable your supervisor and agency Information Security Officer and cooperate fully in any
investigation.

Users have no legitimate expectation of privacy while using this system or any data in it. Any use
may be monitored and all information may be accessed, read, copied, used or disclosed by and to
authorized personnel for official purposes without additional prior notice to users.
  This notice shall
not be deemed to waive the rights of any person who may be the subject of data in this system.
Proceeding with system logon means that you have read and accept the above terms and conditions."

This generally restates the law of the state of New York in this matter.

This of course does not answer questions about the possible dissemination of such information beyond authorized corporate supervisors, but it is clear that such persons have absolute access to the information contained therein.

The disclosure of confidential sources of leaked information to the media is protected  as well by New York law and may apply to bloggers.

That covers information stored on a corporate computer, but does it cover accessing someone's personal e-mail account using a password that has been stored on the corporate computer but to obtain information that has actually been stored in digital space?  From what little I've seen of this someone actually logged into Fr Joseph's gmail account (which could possibly have already been logged into and in the history of a corporate computer) and sent Stokoe copies of e-mails from Fr Joseph's "sent" directory.  Does logging into a personal e-mail account from work void all expectation of privacy to any information in that account, not just the information that has been saved in browser history and temporary internet files?

To use another example, say I sent an e-mail from home on my yahoo account to another person and made some disparaging remarks about my boss and corporate employer.  A few days later my boss accidentally logs into my yahoo account because I was stupid enough to leave my login information stored on a work computer, and curiosity gets the better of him and he decides to start snooping around.  Can he legally take action against me?
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« Reply #265 on: May 05, 2011, 12:09:13 PM »

I am not taking sides on this sad issue, but for what it is worth, there has been some discussion about the alleged confidentiality of e-mail information stored on 'corporate' computers. Setting the moral issues aside, the legal ones are fairly clear.

There is no expectation of privacy for material stored on corporate computers.

When I was a municipal attorney, my municipality adopted the recommended sample New York IT policy some years ago and it contained language like this:

"This system and its applications and data belong to (name of entity).  Access and use is limited
to authorized users for authorized purposes.  Actual or attempted unauthorized use is not permitted
and may be a crime subjecting you to disciplinary, criminal, civil, and/or administrative action.  You
are responsible for any activity attributed to you or your user-ID upon entering this system, and are
expected to:

1) Comply with all relevant federal, state, and agency policies, laws, rules, and regulations,
2) Access only systems and information to which you have been authorized for authorized purposes,
3) Not attach or install unauthorized software or hardware to this network or a workstation connected
to it,
4) Report any abuse or misuse of this system to the (name IT Department) and
if applicable your supervisor and agency Information Security Officer and cooperate fully in any
investigation.

Users have no legitimate expectation of privacy while using this system or any data in it. Any use
may be monitored and all information may be accessed, read, copied, used or disclosed by and to
authorized personnel for official purposes without additional prior notice to users.
  This notice shall
not be deemed to waive the rights of any person who may be the subject of data in this system.
Proceeding with system logon means that you have read and accept the above terms and conditions."

This generally restates the law of the state of New York in this matter.

This of course does not answer questions about the possible dissemination of such information beyond authorized corporate supervisors, but it is clear that such persons have absolute access to the information contained therein.

The disclosure of confidential sources of leaked information to the media is protected  as well by New York law and may apply to bloggers.

That covers information stored on a corporate computer, but does it cover accessing someone's personal e-mail account using a password that has been stored on the corporate computer but to obtain information that has actually been stored in digital space?  From what little I've seen of this someone actually logged into Fr Joseph's gmail account (which could possibly have already been logged into and in the history of a corporate computer) and sent Stokoe copies of e-mails from Fr Joseph's "sent" directory.  Does logging into a personal e-mail account from work void all expectation of privacy to any information in that account, not just the information that has been saved in browser history and temporary internet files?

To use another example, say I sent an e-mail from home on my yahoo account to another person and made some disparaging remarks about my boss and corporate employer.  A few days later my boss accidentally logs into my yahoo account because I was stupid enough to leave my login information stored on a work computer, and curiosity gets the better of him and he decides to start snooping around.  Can he legally take action against me?

We took the position that if the county's computer was used for messaging and you logged in from a county work station, even through an external account like yahoo, gmail, Roadrunner etc..., that we had access to the same.

We fired several unionized workers who were caught with porn messages and gambling messages. IT retrieved the same by use of the embedded password. Again, the general rule is that if the computer is not your personal property and it has been used by you in violation of the IT policy (i.e. logging in toyour personal email accounts) or on company time, even if at home if a laptop is assigned to you, you are stuck with the consequences.

The moral is, keep you private life private and use your own CPU and don't log in from work.

Again, I am not commenting on the morality of disseminating such allegedly properly obtained emails, merely on the legality of accessing them.
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« Reply #266 on: May 05, 2011, 12:23:49 PM »

I am not taking sides on this sad issue, but for what it is worth, there has been some discussion about the alleged confidentiality of e-mail information stored on 'corporate' computers. Setting the moral issues aside, the legal ones are fairly clear.

There is no expectation of privacy for material stored on corporate computers.

When I was a municipal attorney, my municipality adopted the recommended sample New York IT policy some years ago and it contained language like this:

"This system and its applications and data belong to (name of entity).  Access and use is limited
to authorized users for authorized purposes.  Actual or attempted unauthorized use is not permitted
and may be a crime subjecting you to disciplinary, criminal, civil, and/or administrative action.  You
are responsible for any activity attributed to you or your user-ID upon entering this system, and are
expected to:

1) Comply with all relevant federal, state, and agency policies, laws, rules, and regulations,
2) Access only systems and information to which you have been authorized for authorized purposes,
3) Not attach or install unauthorized software or hardware to this network or a workstation connected
to it,
4) Report any abuse or misuse of this system to the (name IT Department) and
if applicable your supervisor and agency Information Security Officer and cooperate fully in any
investigation.

Users have no legitimate expectation of privacy while using this system or any data in it. Any use
may be monitored and all information may be accessed, read, copied, used or disclosed by and to
authorized personnel for official purposes without additional prior notice to users.
  This notice shall
not be deemed to waive the rights of any person who may be the subject of data in this system.
Proceeding with system logon means that you have read and accept the above terms and conditions."

This generally restates the law of the state of New York in this matter.

This of course does not answer questions about the possible dissemination of such information beyond authorized corporate supervisors, but it is clear that such persons have absolute access to the information contained therein.

The disclosure of confidential sources of leaked information to the media is protected  as well by New York law and may apply to bloggers.

That covers information stored on a corporate computer, but does it cover accessing someone's personal e-mail account using a password that has been stored on the corporate computer but to obtain information that has actually been stored in digital space?  From what little I've seen of this someone actually logged into Fr Joseph's gmail account (which could possibly have already been logged into and in the history of a corporate computer) and sent Stokoe copies of e-mails from Fr Joseph's "sent" directory.  Does logging into a personal e-mail account from work void all expectation of privacy to any information in that account, not just the information that has been saved in browser history and temporary internet files?

To use another example, say I sent an e-mail from home on my yahoo account to another person and made some disparaging remarks about my boss and corporate employer.  A few days later my boss accidentally logs into my yahoo account because I was stupid enough to leave my login information stored on a work computer, and curiosity gets the better of him and he decides to start snooping around.  Can he legally take action against me?

We took the position that if the county's computer was used for messaging and you logged in from a county work station, even through an external account like yahoo, gmail, Roadrunner etc..., that we had access to the same.

We fired several unionized workers who were caught with porn messages and gambling messages. IT retrieved the same by use of the embedded password. Again, the general rule is that if the computer is not your personal property and it has been used by you in violation of the IT policy (i.e. logging in toyour personal email accounts) or on company time, even if at home if a laptop is assigned to you, you are stuck with the consequences.

The moral is, keep you private life private and use your own CPU and don't log in from work.

Again, I am not commenting on the morality of disseminating such allegedly properly obtained emails, merely on the legality of accessing them.

Thank you, and good moral to the story.

The second question is, do you have to disclose such IT policies to employees, that is through an employee handbook or even a quick blurb during orientation?  Would the OCA have such a broad approach to IT policy given the nature of a lot of priests' and bishops' e-mail correspondence might be confessional in nature or at the very least be related to "counseling"?  This might cause a lot of parishioners to rethink corresponding with priests by e-mail if so.
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« Reply #267 on: May 05, 2011, 02:04:27 PM »


Thank you, and good moral to the story.

The second question is, do you have to disclose such IT policies to employees, that is through an employee handbook or even a quick blurb during orientation?  Would the OCA have such a broad approach to IT policy given the nature of a lot of priests' and bishops' e-mail correspondence might be confessional in nature or at the very least be related to "counseling"?  This might cause a lot of parishioners to rethink corresponding with priests by e-mail if so.

I wouldn't presume to speak as to the OCA's practice or that of any other Church or not-for profit. We were a 'union' shop with five collective bargaining units and management who have legal protections written in under state law, hence it made sense to promulgate IT regulations and present them to employees at orientation and at periodic continuing education forums.

The advice that is usually dispensed when questions about confidential matters comes up is that you should not commit anything to writing that you do not want to read in another setting. Since local governments are usually bound by state open records law, I always counseled employees to expect the release of any letters or correspondence.

There are of course exceptions to the admissibility of certain communications as evidence in court or administrative proceedings, privileged confidentiality being one of them.(Medical records are a common privilege.)  However, as I stated several posts earlier, I am only addressing the issue of privacy expectations. Communications which might be 'leaked' to the press for example, might very well be inadmissible as evidence and would be subject to the normal rules of evidence, including the rule against hearsay and various priveleges which may be asserted.

Sorry if this sounds 'legalistic', but the nature of the subject requires me to be more detailed than on other subjects.

In any event, if you use your company's computers and write stupid, private things that you would never say in public, well- tough for you if it gets out. Be more prudent.

The old saying, 'Loose lips sink ships' remains applicable regardless of the setting!
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« Reply #268 on: May 05, 2011, 02:50:24 PM »


Thank you, and good moral to the story.

The second question is, do you have to disclose such IT policies to employees, that is through an employee handbook or even a quick blurb during orientation?  Would the OCA have such a broad approach to IT policy given the nature of a lot of priests' and bishops' e-mail correspondence might be confessional in nature or at the very least be related to "counseling"?  This might cause a lot of parishioners to rethink corresponding with priests by e-mail if so.

I wouldn't presume to speak as to the OCA's practice or that of any other Church or not-for profit. We were a 'union' shop with five collective bargaining units and management who have legal protections written in under state law, hence it made sense to promulgate IT regulations and present them to employees at orientation and at periodic continuing education forums.

The advice that is usually dispensed when questions about confidential matters comes up is that you should not commit anything to writing that you do not want to read in another setting. Since local governments are usually bound by state open records law, I always counseled employees to expect the release of any letters or correspondence.

There are of course exceptions to the admissibility of certain communications as evidence in court or administrative proceedings, privileged confidentiality being one of them.(Medical records are a common privilege.)  However, as I stated several posts earlier, I am only addressing the issue of privacy expectations. Communications which might be 'leaked' to the press for example, might very well be inadmissible as evidence and would be subject to the normal rules of evidence, including the rule against hearsay and various priveleges which may be asserted.

Sorry if this sounds 'legalistic', but the nature of the subject requires me to be more detailed than on other subjects.

In any event, if you use your company's computers and write stupid, private things that you would never say in public, well- tough for you if it gets out. Be more prudent.

The old saying, 'Loose lips sink ships' remains applicable regardless of the setting!

Legalistic terms are very apropos in the larger context, and I thank you for being so informative.

I suppose what really bugs me about this is that in this case (not of just the recent "leaks" or "hacking" whichever this turns out to be, but of a lot of the communications that have been put out by both the warring "news" sites) a lot of the material which is being brought to light is that of priests' and bishops' personal e-mail accounts.  Were this just common corporate officers and managers it wouldn't worry me so, but these are people who deal in a high volume of personal information that spans parishes and dioceses.  Though all the e-mails that have been posted so far pertain to the current "scandal" in the OCA someone had to sift through this correspondence, and that someone was certainly not the persons these e-mails were addressed to.  I've written e-mails to priests of parishes I was attending, and in these e-mails were details about my personal life that I wouldn't want just any member of the parish council (or even any priest or bishop that felt he had a right to snoop) to know about.  Suppose my priest were a "person of interest" in this scandal, I would suddenly develop an interest and sinful purpose in determining just who was going through his e-mail (the sinful purpose involving a baseball bat, some barbed wire, possibly a roll of duct-tape, and a predetermined alibi if things went too far) after seeing any of his e-mails linked to some keyboard jockey's blog.
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Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
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« Reply #269 on: May 05, 2011, 04:17:58 PM »

There's nothing worse than ugliness with bishops.  I remember seeing this a lot growing up in the church.

It's gotten so complicated.  Salvation is our goal, and Christ is the door.
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