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Author Topic: Must a Catholic renounce papal authority to become Orthodox?  (Read 3352 times) Average Rating: 0
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rimlyanin
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« on: February 24, 2011, 09:58:35 PM »

A question for those who have decided to convert from Catholicism to Orthodoxy:

Must a Catholic renounce papal authority to become a member of the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2011, 10:06:38 PM »

A question for those who have decided to convert from Catholicism to Orthodoxy:

Must a Catholic renounce papal authority to become a member of the Orthodox Church?

Yes
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« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2011, 10:12:07 PM »

Yes. How that is manifest may vary, but this is from the Reception of Converts in the Hapgood service book (pp. 455-56):

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief that the holy Apostles did not receive from our Lord equal spiritual power, but that the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince: And that the Bishop of Rome alone is his successor : And that the Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and others are not, equally with the Bishop of Rome, successors of the Apostles?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Œcumenical Councils, and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by the Councils?

Answer. I do.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 10:13:45 PM by bogdan » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2011, 11:16:25 PM »

Yes, and when I was chrismated, I assented to the very same questions from Hapgood that bogdan was kind enough to transcribe for us.  Aside from those two, IIRC, there are one or two other questions which generally address post-schism heresies promulgated by the Pope of Rome.
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« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2011, 03:02:52 AM »

^Wow, this is very interesting, I didn't know that they had former RC's deny these specific points. Very impactful I'd imagine for the RC convert to say these things.

Briefly, does anyone know if you are from another faith background, if you must deny other specific heresies which are unique to your faith, or is this method just used with RC converts?
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« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2011, 04:35:33 AM »

...the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince...

Why this has to be denied? I though that this came from the Fathers and it doesn't have to mean that bishop of Rome is somehow superior to other patriarchs.
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« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2011, 10:11:30 AM »

Yes. How that is manifest may vary, but this is from the Reception of Converts in the Hapgood service book (pp. 455-56):

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief that the holy Apostles did not receive from our Lord equal spiritual power, but that the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince: And that the Bishop of Rome alone is his successor : And that the Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and others are not, equally with the Bishop of Rome, successors of the Apostles?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Œcumenical Councils, and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by the Councils?

Answer. I do.

I suspected this would be the case, and rightfully so I think.  I find it interesting, however, that a person is to renounce these "beliefs"...but raised as a Catholic (and I imagine I am not alone in this camp), I don't recall anyone ever teaching/requiring me to believe these things, except for waht is in the Nicean Creed, particularly with respect to receiving the Sacraments.  I don't recall ever pledging allegience to the Pope...it's just kind of out there and understood.  

Yes, of course, when I read the church documents, I understand that is what is required of Catholics...but as I delve further into the history of the teachings, doctrines, and dogmas of the Catholic (and Orthodox) Church, I am finding out all kinds of things I am required to "believe" (should have been believing) as a Catholic.  Maybe that is a failure of my priests/bishops over the years?  The reason I bring this up is that it seems that if someone in my position were to convert from Catholicism to Orthodoxy, they would have to affirm particular (all??) aspects of the Catholic Faith prior to renouncing them to become Orthodox!  Otherwise the renouncing of such doctrine/dogma would be meaningless.  
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« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2011, 10:12:02 AM »

...the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince...

Why this has to be denied? I though that this came from the Fathers and it doesn't have to mean that bishop of Rome is somehow superior to other patriarchs.

Good question.
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« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2011, 08:42:32 PM »

I think it's weird that at my parish nobody renounces anything but Satan when they are received. Is this a universal Orthodox practice or just a Russian one?
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« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2011, 09:07:10 PM »

I think it's weird that at my parish nobody renounces anything but Satan when they are received.

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« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2011, 09:16:51 PM »

...the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince...

Why this has to be denied? I though that this came from the Fathers and it doesn't have to mean that bishop of Rome is somehow superior to other patriarchs.

But that is how Roman Catholic theology has taken it, and that misinterpretation is what is being renounced.
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« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2011, 09:32:43 PM »

I think it's weird that at my parish nobody renounces anything but Satan when they are received. Is this a universal Orthodox practice or just a Russian one?

It's more common for Chrismations, I assume moreso in the Russian tradition (which Hapgood was translating).  Baptisms more assume a blank slate; Chrismations assume that there was something defective there before - hence, the renouncings.

That said, I didn't have to renounce anything when I came into the Church - had I done so, I'd have been in the awkward position of having to renounce things from a Anglican baptism that I had never believed nor lived! Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2011, 11:43:47 PM »

^Wow, this is very interesting, I didn't know that they had former RC's deny these specific points. Very impactful I'd imagine for the RC convert to say these things.

Briefly, does anyone know if you are from another faith background, if you must deny other specific heresies which are unique to your faith, or is this method just used with RC converts?

Briefly: yes.

Not so briefly:

Quote
After the Prayer, the Bishop (or Priest) shall say to the convert :

Wherefore renounce now, with all thy heart, thine errors, and false doctrines, and mistakes of judgment, and confess the Orthodox-Catholic Faith.

And the Bishop questioneth the convert from the Roman-Latin Confession.

Dost thou renounce the false doctrine that, for the expression of the dogma touching the Procession of the Holy Spirit, the declaration of our Saviour Christ himself: "who proceedeth from the Father" : doth not suffice ; and that the addition, of man's invention : "and from the Son" : is required ?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief that the holy Apostles did not receive from our Lord equal spiritual power, but that the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince: And that the Bishop of Rome alone is his successor : And that the Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and others are not, equally with the Bishop of Rome, successors of the Apostles?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Œcumenical Councils, and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by the Councils?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce all the other doctrines of the Western Confession, both old and new, which are contrary to the Word of God, and to the true tradition of the Church, and to the decrees of the seven Œcumenical Councils?

Answer. I do.

The convert from the Armenian Confesrion is questioned as follows by the Bishop:

Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief that in our Lord Jesus Christ there are not two natures, Divine and human, but one only; the human nature being swallowed up by the Divine ?

Answer. I do.

The Bishop questioneth the convert from the Lutheran Confessahon thus:

Dost thou renounce the false doctrine that, for the expression of the dogma touching the Procession of the Holy Ghost the declaration of our Saviour Christ himself: "who proceedeth from the Father" : doth not suffice ; and that the addition, of man's invention : "and from the Son " : is required ?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief that in the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist the bread is not transmuted into the Body of Christ, and doth not become the Body of Christ ; and that the wine is not transmuted into the Blood of Christ, and doth not become the Blood of Christ ; but that the presence of Christ's Body only for a short time doth touch the bread, which remaineth simple bread ?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief of the teachers who do not accept as Sacraments Chrismation, Marriage, Anointing with Oil, and the Priesthood itself, and presume to administer Baptism and the Eucharist, never having received, through the laying-on of hands by a Bishop, that Ordination which hath been transmitted from one to another, even from the holy Apostles ?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief of the teachers who receive not the traditions of the Holy Church, reverence not the Saints, and deprive the dead of spiritual aid and the living of spiritual consolation, in that they reject prayers for the dead?

Answer. I do.

The questioneth the convert from the Reformed Confession after this wise:

Dost thou renounce the false doctrine that, for the expression of the dogma touching the Procession   the Holy Spirit, the declaration of our Saviour Christ himself : "who proceedeth from the Father :" doth not suffice; and that the addition, of man's invention : "and from the Son " : is required ?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the false doctrine, that the predestination of men to their salvation, or their rejection, is not in accordance with the Divine foreknowledge of the faith and good works of the former, or of the unbelief and evil deeds of the latter; but in accordance with some arbitrary destiny, by reason of which faith and virtue are robbed of their merit, and God is held accountable for the perdition of sinners ?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief that in the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist the bread and wine are not transmuted into the Hody and Blood of Christ, and are merely emblems of the Body and Blood of Christ?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief of the Reformed teachers, who reject five Sacraments : Chrismation, Confession, Marriage, Anointing with Oil, and the Priesthood itself; and presume to administer Baptism and the Eucharist, never having received, through the laying-on of hands by a Bishop, that Ordination which hath been transmitted from one to another, even from the holy Apostles?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief of the Reformed teachers who receive not the traditions of the Holy Church, reverence not the Saints, and deprive the dead of spiritual aid, and the living of consolation, in that they reject prayers for the dead?

Answer. I do.

And after these special questions, appointed for the converts from different Confessions, the Bishop shall proceed with the catechising which is common to all, and shall ask:

Bishop. Hast thou renounced all ancient and modern heresies and false doctrines which ate contrary to the teachings of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Eastern Church ?

Answer. I have.

Bishop. Dost thou desire to be united unto the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Eastern Church ?

Answer. I desire it with all my heart.

Bishop. Dost thou believe in one God, who is adored in the holy Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit : and dost thou worship him as thy King and thy God ?

Answer. I believe in one God who is glorified and adored in the Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and I worship him as my King and my God.

Then he maketh one lowly reverence, kneeling and bowing his had to the earth and reciteth the Creed.

And then the convert affirms a number of dogmas.

The priest who chrismated me did not ask me to renounce anything, saying the act of conversion was itself the renunciation. (I only had to say the Creed.) But he said if I wanted to confess my heterodox beliefs in my first confession, I could do so.

This is all a bit of an aside, but I felt it worth noting.
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« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2011, 11:49:14 PM »

The priest who chrismated me did not ask me to renounce anything, saying the act of conversion was itself the renunciation. (I only had to say the Creed.) But he said if I wanted to confess my heterodox beliefs in my first confession, I could do so.

This is all a bit of an aside, but I felt it worth noting.

These "asides" I often find the most helpful. It shows how Orthodoxy is lived.

Thanks for sharing.
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« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2011, 11:57:23 PM »

Oh and also:

Quote
The Jew renounceth: The blasphemies of the Jews against Jesus Christ our Saviour, his most holy Mother and his Saints ; circumcision ; the observation of Saturday, and all Jewish festivals and ceremonies ; the Rabbinical interpretation of the Scriptures contained in the Talmud and ancient and modern writings; the doctrine that the Messiah is not yet come ; and the vain expectation of his coming.

(The Jew accepteth the belief: That the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one God, divided in three Persons, but in Essence undivided; that Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God, was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary for the sake of our salvation, and became very man, yet remaining very God, one in Essence, but in two Persons, divine and human; that our Lord Jesus Christ, of his own free will, in very truth, and not in appearance only, suffered for us in the flesh, but not in his divinity, and, having died and been buried as man, rose again by virtue of his divinity, and ascended into heaven in the flesh; that the Virgin Mary was and remained truly Virgin, and therefore is worthy of reverence as the chief intercessor for us with God; and that the Cross of Christ was the instrument and emblem of our salvation.)

The Mahometan renounceth: The Mahometan faith, and its Sophistries; Mahomet, as being a false prophet; the Koran and all false legends, laws and traditions therein contained; the pilgrimage to Mecca for worship, as salutary to the soul; the inculcation of polygamy in this life, and the teaching as to sensual pleasures in Paradise; and the blasphemies which Mahometans utter touching Christ our Saviour, his most holy Mother, and Christians.

(He accepteth all the points set forth for the Jew, and in addition the belief that the Holy Scriptures contained in the Old and New Testaments, as accepted by the Church, are the Word of God, given for our salvation, and were written by the holy men of God who were illumined by the Holy Spirit; that the traditions, regulations and prayers which have come down from the Apostles and the holy Fathers of the Church are salutary for the soul; and that the Apostles, Martyrs, and all the Saints revered by the Holy Church are, in very truth, Saints of God, abide with Christ in the kingdom of heaven, and pray for us sinners. He also professeth belief touching the holy images required from all converts.)

The Heathen renounceth: Heathen superstitions ; the adoration of created things; the worship of material statues, and bowing down to idols ; the offering and eating of sacrifices unto idols ; idolatrous priests and magicians, and their superstitious deeds and soothsaying.

(He accepteth the same as the Mahometan.)

The convert then maketh oath of allegiance.


I, N., who am come from Judaism (Mahometanism, Heathenism) to the Christian faith, to-day take my oath before omniscient God, that I renounce the false doctrine of the Jews (Mahometanism, Heathenism), and all the heresies and calumnies therein contained, and enter the saving faith of Christ, not because of any compulsion or fear, nor because of the oppression of m fellow-believers, and not for the sake of gain, neither by reason of any hidden guilt on my part, but solely for the salvation of my soul. Being convinced of the very truth of this faith, and drawn by the love of my heart unto Christ the Saviour, I desire to become a Christian, and that holy Baptism may be vouchsafed unto me. And if I now assert these things through hyprocrisy, and come not unto Christ my God through the desire of my heart; and if I shall hereafter dare to renounce the Christian faith, and return unto Judaism (Mahometanism, Heathenism), may the wrath of God and everlasting damnation befall me.
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« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2011, 04:12:17 AM »

wow, powerful stuff! Thanks, Bogdan  Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2011, 07:21:46 AM »

...the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince...

Why this has to be denied? I though that this came from the Fathers and it doesn't have to mean that bishop of Rome is somehow superior to other patriarchs.

But that is how Roman Catholic theology has taken it, and that misinterpretation is what is being renounced but only it's RC misunderstanding?

So the text doesn't mean that one should deny the idea that St. Peter was Prince of Apostles?
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« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2011, 07:29:55 AM »

...the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince...

Why this has to be denied? I though that this came from the Fathers and it doesn't have to mean that bishop of Rome is somehow superior to other patriarchs.

But that is how Roman Catholic theology has taken it, and that misinterpretation is what is being renounced but only it's RC misunderstanding?

So the text doesn't mean that one should deny the idea that St. Peter was Prince of Apostles?

Liturgically, Apostles Peter and Paul are called Princes of the Apostles. Other apostles of the Twelve are referred to in Orthodox hymnography in similar terms. This is consistent with the conciliar, not autocratic, relationship between the members of the Orthodox episcopate. First among equals does not mean ruler of all.
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« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2011, 07:39:41 AM »

Liturgically, Apostles Peter and Paul are called Princes of the Apostles. Other apostles of the Twelve are referred to in Orthodox hymnography in similar terms. This is consistent with the conciliar, not autocratic, relationship between the members of the Orthodox episcopate. First among equals does not mean ruler of all.

Does that mean "No, the text doesn't mean that" or "Yes, the text does indeed mean that"?
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« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2011, 07:50:36 AM »

It means that the Orthodox Church does not elevate one apostle as superior or having greater authority than his fellow apostles. All are equal.
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« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2011, 11:02:07 PM »

A question for those who have decided to convert from Catholicism to Orthodoxy:

Must a Catholic renounce papal authority to become a member of the Orthodox Church?

How could someone not part of the Christian Church have the authority you are speaking of?
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« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2011, 11:04:24 PM »

...the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince...

Why this has to be denied? I though that this came from the Fathers and it doesn't have to mean that bishop of Rome is somehow superior to other patriarchs.

But that is how Roman Catholic theology has taken it, and that misinterpretation is what is being renounced but only it's RC misunderstanding?

So the text doesn't mean that one should deny the idea that St. Peter was Prince of Apostles?

Echoing LBK, the text does mean that St. Peter was a Prince of Apostles, not the only, or their ruler.
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« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2011, 11:05:43 PM »

The reason I bring this up is that it seems that if someone in my position were to convert from Catholicism to Orthodoxy, they would have to affirm particular (all??) aspects of the Catholic Faith prior to renouncing them to become Orthodox!  Otherwise the renouncing of such doctrine/dogma would be meaningless.  

No. We cannot know when, where, and to what degree the Romanist faith has been instilled in its individual faithful, and therefore we do not know what each individual convert has explicitly assented to. Therefore, even if they have not personally, explicitly assented to the dogmas of Rome, they must renounce them to indicate an overall departure from the faith tradition of Rome and to prove and verify to the Church that they now uphold the Orthodox faith.
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« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2011, 11:25:13 AM »

The reason I bring this up is that it seems that if someone in my position were to convert from Catholicism to Orthodoxy, they would have to affirm particular (all??) aspects of the Catholic Faith prior to renouncing them to become Orthodox!  Otherwise the renouncing of such doctrine/dogma would be meaningless.  

No. We cannot know when, where, and to what degree the Romanist faith has been instilled in its individual faithful, and therefore we do not know what each individual convert has explicitly assented to. Therefore, even if they have not personally, explicitly assented to the dogmas of Rome, they must renounce them to indicate an overall departure from the faith tradition of Rome and to prove and verify to the Church that they now uphold the Orthodox faith.

I think I see what you mean...a person would renounce various heretical beliefs, regardless of whether that person personally held the belief(s), as an affirmation of the Orthodox Faith.

Thanks to all for the information provided!
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« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2011, 09:01:24 PM »

...the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince...

Why this has to be denied? I though that this came from the Fathers and it doesn't have to mean that bishop of Rome is somehow superior to other patriarchs.

Good question.
What an Ultramonist means by saying St. Peter was the Prince of the Apostles is one thing, the Fathers and the Orthodox Church saying it is another.  The convert renounces the former so he can embrace the latter.
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« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2011, 10:28:19 PM »

...the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince...
Why this has to be denied? I though that this came from the Fathers and it doesn't have to mean that bishop of Rome is somehow superior to other patriarchs.
Good question.
What an Ultramonist means by saying St. Peter was the Prince of the Apostles is one thing, the Fathers and the Orthodox Church saying it is another.  The convert renounces the former so he can embrace the latter.

Right, its just like the Jew renouncing "the observance of Saturday."  He is not renouncing the Orthodox Christian observance of Saturday (i.e. he is not renouncing Saturday as a day generally not of strict fast, nor is he renoucing the observance of the one exception to this rule, the Great and Holy Sabbath, etc.).   Same thing with the "prince" clause. 
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« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2011, 10:43:22 PM »

Right, its just like the Jew renouncing "the observance of Saturday."  He is not renouncing the Orthodox Christian observance of Saturday (i.e. he is not renouncing Saturday as a day generally not of strict fast, nor is he renoucing the observance of the one exception to this rule, the Great and Holy Sabbath, etc.).   Same thing with the "prince" clause. 

Father,

So the renunciation is referring specifically to the Jewish observance of the Sabbath, and the attendance of Jewish sabbath worship?

Would Orthodox Christian observance on Saturday be considered "keeping the [Orthodox] Sabbath", or a whole different type of "holy day" entirely?
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« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2011, 10:47:23 PM »

What an Ultramonist means by saying St. Peter was the Prince of the Apostles is one thing, the Fathers and the Orthodox Church saying it is another.  The convert renounces the former so he can embrace the latter.

For fun, I like to google words rarely used and see what pops up, often lulz:

Here is what I got for the first return from the search:

http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=3997468&postcount=173
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« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2011, 11:14:52 PM »

Right, its just like the Jew renouncing "the observance of Saturday."  He is not renouncing the Orthodox Christian observance of Saturday (i.e. he is not renouncing Saturday as a day generally not of strict fast, nor is he renoucing the observance of the one exception to this rule, the Great and Holy Sabbath, etc.).   Same thing with the "prince" clause. 
Father,  So the renunciation is referring specifically to the Jewish observance of the Sabbath, and the attendance of Jewish sabbath worship? 
Yes, someone becoming Orthodox is not being asked to renounce Orthodox beliefs or practice.   The purpose of the renunciations is to renounce the previous non-Christian ways as well as the heresies that still adhere to them, in this case Sabbatarianism.   
Quote
Would Orthodox Christian observance on Saturday be considered "keeping the [Orthodox] Sabbath", or a whole different type of "holy day" entirely?
   It is still called "the Sabbath" (except in English, where we seem to prefer "Saturday" as a translation of what is otherwise "Sabbath.").   Holy Saturday is "Great and Holy Sabbath."  We keep the 7th Day by praying for those who have gone to their rest in Christ before us, and in anticipation of the 8th day (the Lord's Day, Sunday) which supercedes it in glory, the latter being inaugurated at the Prokeimenon of Vespers on the Eve of the Lord's Day.   Even during Great Lent, Saturday is a day on which strict fast (eating nothing until the afternoon/evening) is forbidden.  Again, the only exception to the strict fast rule throughout the year with regard to Saturdays is the Great Sabbath (Holy Saturday).     

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ialmisry
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« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2011, 11:29:51 PM »

What an Ultramonist means by saying St. Peter was the Prince of the Apostles is one thing, the Fathers and the Orthodox Church saying it is another.  The convert renounces the former so he can embrace the latter.

For fun, I like to google words rarely used and see what pops up, often lulz:

Here is what I got for the first return from the search:

http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=3997468&postcount=173
Ah, the memories. The thread that is mentiones on Codex Theodosianus is an oldie but a goodie.

Ultramontanist is the word, though.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 11:30:51 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2011, 11:45:11 PM »

What an Ultramonist means by saying St. Peter was the Prince of the Apostles is one thing, the Fathers and the Orthodox Church saying it is another.  The convert renounces the former so he can embrace the latter.
For fun, I like to google words rarely used and see what pops up, often lulz:Here is what I got for the first return from the search:
http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=3997468&postcount=173
Ah, the memories.

 laugh   Reminds me of Dr. Seuss:  "sweep, sweep up the memories, sweet fuzzie memories." 
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« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2011, 01:02:15 AM »

Right, its just like the Jew renouncing "the observance of Saturday."  He is not renouncing the Orthodox Christian observance of Saturday (i.e. he is not renouncing Saturday as a day generally not of strict fast, nor is he renoucing the observance of the one exception to this rule, the Great and Holy Sabbath, etc.).   Same thing with the "prince" clause. 
Father,  So the renunciation is referring specifically to the Jewish observance of the Sabbath, and the attendance of Jewish sabbath worship? 
Yes, someone becoming Orthodox is not being asked to renounce Orthodox beliefs or practice.   The purpose of the renunciations is to renounce the previous non-Christian ways as well as the heresies that still adhere to them, in this case Sabbatarianism.   
Quote
Would Orthodox Christian observance on Saturday be considered "keeping the [Orthodox] Sabbath", or a whole different type of "holy day" entirely?
   It is still called "the Sabbath" (except in English, where we seem to prefer "Saturday" as a translation of what is otherwise "Sabbath.").   Holy Saturday is "Great and Holy Sabbath."  We keep the 7th Day by praying for those who have gone to their rest in Christ before us, and in anticipation of the 8th day (the Lord's Day, Sunday) which supercedes it in glory, the latter being inaugurated at the Prokeimenon of Vespers on the Eve of the Lord's Day.   Even during Great Lent, Saturday is a day on which strict fast (eating nothing until the afternoon/evening) is forbidden.  Again, the only exception to the strict fast rule throughout the year with regard to Saturdays is the Great Sabbath (Holy Saturday).     


Thank you, Father, that's what I hoped.
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« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2011, 08:36:09 PM »

^Wow, this is very interesting, I didn't know that they had former RC's deny these specific points. Very impactful I'd imagine for the RC convert to say these things.

Briefly, does anyone know if you are from another faith background, if you must deny other specific heresies which are unique to your faith, or is this method just used with RC converts?

Oh yes they are. ;-)
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St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
ialmisry
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« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2011, 10:02:13 PM »

^Wow, this is very interesting, I didn't know that they had former RC's deny these specific points. Very impactful I'd imagine for the RC convert to say these things.

Briefly, does anyone know if you are from another faith background, if you must deny other specific heresies which are unique to your faith, or is this method just used with RC converts?

Quote
After the Prayer, the Bishop (or Priest) shall say to the convert: Wherefore renounce now, with all thy heart, thine errors, and false doctrines, and mistakes of judgment, and confess the Orthodox-Catholic Faith. (or, without specific renunciation: Hast thou renounced: page 457.)

And the Bishop questioned the convert from the Roman-Latin Confession.

Dost thou renounce the false doctrine that, for the expression of the dogma touching the Procession of the Holy Spirit, the declaration of our Saviour Christ himself: "who proceedeth from the Father": doth not suffice; and that the addition, of man's invention: "and from the Son": is required?

Answer. I do.

Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief that it doth not suffice | to confess our Lord Jesus Christ as the head of the Universal a Church; and that a man, to wit, the Bishop of Rome, can be the head of Christ's Body, that is to say, of the whole Church?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief that the holy Apostles did not receive from our Lord equal spiritual power, but that the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince: And that the Bishop of Rome alone is his successor: And that the Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and others are not, equally with the Bishop of Rome, successors of the Apostles? Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the (Ecumenical Councils, and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by the Councils?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce all the other doctrines of the Western Confession, both old and new, which are contrary to the Word of God, and to the true tradition of the Church, and to the decrees of the seven GLcumenical Councils?

Answer. I do. _

The convert from the Armenian Confession is questioned as follows by the Bishop:

Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief that in our Lord Jesus Christ there are not two natures, Divine and human, but one only; the human nature being swallowed up by the Divine?

Answer. I do.

The Bishop questioneth the convert from the Lutheran Confession thus: Dost thou renounce the false doctrine that, for the expression of the dogma touching the Procession of the Holy Ghost the declaration of our Saviour Christ himself: "who proceedeth from the Father": doth not suffice; and that the addition, of man's invention: "and from the Son": is required? Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief that in the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist the bread is not transmuted into the Body of Christ, and doth not become the Body of Christ; and that the wine is not transmuted into the Blood of Christ, and doth not become the Blood of Christ; but that the presence of Christ's Body only for a short time doth touch the bread, which remaineth simple bread?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief of the teachers who do not accept as Sacraments Chrismation, Marriage, Anointing with Oil, and the Priesthood itself, which administereth the other Sacraments, and presume to administer Baptism and the Eucharist, never having received, through the laying-on of hands by a Bishop, that Ordination which hath been transmitted from one to another, even from the holy Apostles?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief of the teachers

who receive not the traditions of the Holy Church, reverence not the Saints, and deprive the dead of spiritual aid and the living of spiritual consolation, in that they reject prayers for the dead? Answer. I do.

The Bishop questioned the convert from the Reformed Confession after this wise: Dost thou renounce the false doctrine that, for the expression of the dogma touching the Procession of the Holy Spirit, the declaration of our Saviour Christ himself: "who proceedeth from the Father": doth not suffice; and that the addition, of man's invention: "and from the Son": is required? Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the false doctrine, that the predestination of men to their salvation, or their rejection, is not in accordance with the Divine foreknowledge of the faith and good works of the former, or of the unbelief and evil deeds of the latter; but in accordance with some arbitrary destiny, by reason of which faith and virtue are robbed of their merit, and God is held accountable for the perdition of sinners?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief that in the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist the bread and wine are not transmuted into the Body and Blood of Christ, and are merely emblems of the Body and Blood of Christ?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief of the Reformed teachers, who reject five Sacraments: Chrismation, Confession, Marriage, Anointing with Oil, and the Priesthood itself, which administereth the other Sacraments, and presume to administer Baptism and the Eucharist, never having received, through the laying-on of hands by a Bishop, that Ordination which hath been transmitted from one to another, even from the holy Apostles?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief of the Reformed teachers who receive not the traditions of the Holy Church, reverence not the Saints, and deprive the dead of spiritual aid, and the living of consolation, in that they reject prayers for the dead?

A nswer. I do.

And after these special questions, appointed for the converts from different Confessions, the Bishop shall proceed with the catechizing which is common to all, and shall ask:

Bishop. Hast thou renounced all ancient and modern heresies and false doctrines which are contrary to the teachings of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Eastern Church?

Answer. I have.

Bishop. Dost thou desire to be united unto the Holy OrthodoxCatholic Eastern Church?

Answer. I desire it with all my heart.

Bishop. Dost thou believe in one God, who is adored in the holy Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit: and dost thou worship him as thy King and thy God?

A nswer. I believe in one God who is glorified and adored in the Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and I worship him as my King and my God.

Then he maketh one lowly reverence, kneeling and bowing his head to the earth, and

reciteth the Creed.

I believe in one God the Father Almighty...

Quote
The Catechumen is then asked to renounce his errors and confess his belief.

The Jew renounceth: The blasphemies of the Jews against Jesus Christ our Saviour, his most holy Mother and his Saints; circumcision; the observance of Saturday, and all Jewish festivals and ceremonies; the Rabbinical interpretation of the Scriptures contained in the Talmud and ancient and modern writings; the doctrine that the Messiah is not yet come; and the vain expectation of his coming.

(The Jew accepteth the belief: That the Fatlwr, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one God, divided in three Persons, but in Essence undivided; that Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God, was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary for the sake of our salvation, and became very man, yet remaining very God, one in Essence, but in two Persons, divine and human; that our Lord Jesus Christ, of his own free will, in very truth, and not in appearance only, suffered for us in the flesh, but not in his divinity, and, having died and been buried as man, rose again by virtue of his divinity, and ascended into heaven in the flesh; that the Virgin Mary was and remained truly Virgin, and truly is worthy of reverence as the chief intercessor for us with God; and that the Cross of Christ was the instrument and emblem of our salvation.)

The Mahometan renouncelh: The Mahometan faith, and its Sophistries; Mahomet, as being a false prophet; the Koran and all false legends, laws and traditions therein contained; the pilgrimage to Mecca for worship, as salutary to the soul; the inculcation of polygamy in this life, and the teaching as to sensual pleasures in Paradise; and the blasphemies which Mahometans utter touching Christ our Saviour, his most holy Mother, and Christians.

(He accepteth all the points set forth for the Jnv, and in addition the belief that the Holy Scriptures contained in the Old and New Testaments, as accepted by the Church, are the Word of God, given for our salvation, and 'ritten by the holy

men of God who were illumined by the Holy Spirit; that the traditions, regulations and prayers which have come down from the Apostles and the holy Fathers of the Church are salutary for the soul; and that the Apostles, Martyrs, and all the Saints revered by the Holy Church are, in very truth, Saints of God, abide with Christ in the kingdom of heaven, and pray for us sinners. He also professeth belief touching the holy images (see page 459) required from all converts.)

The Heathen renouncelh: Heathen superstitions; the adoration itj of created things; the worship of material statues, and bowing §_ down to idols; the offering and eating of sacrifices unto idols; idola- jf trous priests and magicians, and their superstitious deeds and sooth- £ saying.

(He accepteth the same as the Mahometan.)

The Convert then maketh oath of allegiance. I, N., who to-day am come to enter the Christian faith from Judaism (Mahometanism, Heathenism) to the Christian faith, take my oath before omniscient God, that I renounce the false doctrine of the Jews (Mahometans, Heathens), and all the heresies and calumnies therein contained, and enter the saving faith of Christ, not because of any compulsion or fear, nor because of the oppression of my fellow-believers, and not for the sake of gain, neither by reason of any hidden guilt on my part, but solely for the salvation of my soul. Being convinced of the very truth of this faith, and drawn by the love of my heart unto Christ the Saviour, I desire to become a Christian, and that holy Baptism may be vouchsafed unto me. And if I now assert these things through hypocrisy, and come not unto Christ my God through the desire of my heart; and if I shall hereafter dare to renounce the Christian faith, and return unto Judaism (Mahometanism, Heathenism), may the wrath of God and everlasting damnation befall me.

And after this, he receiveth Baptism, Chrismation and the Holy Communion.

http://books.google.com/books?id=fBk9AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA457&dq=%22Dost+thou+renounce+the+false+doctrine%22&hl=en&ei=fd92Tf7wNNT6rAG66szFCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Dost%20thou%20renounce%20the%20false%20doctrine%22&f=false
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 10:05:47 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2011, 10:06:47 PM »

^Wow, this is very interesting, I didn't know that they had former RC's deny these specific points. Very impactful I'd imagine for the RC convert to say these things.

Briefly, does anyone know if you are from another faith background, if you must deny other specific heresies which are unique to your faith, or is this method just used with RC converts?

Oh yes they are. ;-)
Yes, they are what?
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2011, 10:49:23 PM »

Were I to remain Roman Catholic; this would not be an issue, but how then does one deal with the issue of "The Filioque" and not renounce Papal Authority. To go back to the Original Nicean Creed without the heresy of "The Filioque" is to reject the Papacy that is at the very least in schism.

Even to consider the "Filioque" should have been a call for an Ecumenical Council to alter the work of the Original Council.  None was ever called.  This would then mean that Roman has gone into Schism.  Thus te excommunication of the Eastern Churches and Patriarchates was illegal.

John
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« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2011, 10:54:01 PM »

^Wow, this is very interesting, I didn't know that they had former RC's deny these specific points. Very impactful I'd imagine for the RC convert to say these things.

Briefly, does anyone know if you are from another faith background, if you must deny other specific heresies which are unique to your faith, or is this method just used with RC converts?

Oh yes they are. ;-)
Yes, they are what?

That they are very impactful to a Catholic Convert to say. I was working my way through entry into the Orthodox Church and my Orthodox Parish Priest visited me at my home and we discussed these denials. Were I to say that publically would be very impactful to me. I would never say them unless I was fully convinced of their validity.
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St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
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