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Author Topic: Why Few Disillusioned Anglicans Will Join Orthodoxy  (Read 10290 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2011, 11:03:28 AM »

Perhaps they just view the situation as trading one insane asylum for another.
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« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2011, 11:44:35 AM »

The basic reason why few Episcopalians will jump ship to either conventional Orthodox or Catholic churches is that the vast majority of them look upon the current mess as a going off the rails of something that used to be working just fine. Thus they are not all that susceptible to chucking their entire tradition and starting over again. To keep their traditions, well, that requires bringing their priest with them, and that's why the ordinariate in particular is going to be minuscule in this country, but it's also an impediment to WRO.

until they try to keeping their married priests with them.

Given the Vatican's problems with its mandated clerical celibacy and those trying to change it, and the so called sui juris churches forced to adopt the practed in this country trying to get the Vatican to make good its renigged promises in its union schemes, the Anglican use parishes won't be allowed to keep their tradition of married clergy. So they will then have to decide whether to drown in the Tiber or float down the Orontes or the Volga.
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« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2011, 12:49:00 PM »

Perhaps they just view the situation as trading one insane asylum for another.

I would be less than candid if I were to dispute that you say. There is an important difference though. The Orthodox Church, while in many ways dysfunctional, remains remains intact and whole delivering "the faith once delivered to the saints." I speak as a former Anglican, and now as an Orthodox Deacon in the Western Rite, that attempting to restore something that is cut twice from the Root, is an impossibility. What is good and still has life in it can be regrafted and its continuing life can come from the source, but there is no future otherwise. The old maxim that "Orthodoxy is the best religion given to the worse people" is pretty accurate. By no means does this mean that I am the "right sort of person" but God does grant many mercies and in the Orthodox Church, providing a person is patient, much good can happen. Although there are still very vocal "naysayers" about the Western Rite in the Orthodox Church recent developments have been dramatic and very encouraging.
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« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2011, 02:12:44 PM »

until they try to keeping their married priests with them.

Well, only time will tell on that, and while I may or may not have doubts on that point, it's not necessarily a factor in decisions made now, but rather a gamble on the future. What is a problem now is that unless you are lucky enough to live close to one of the extant parishes, if you don't have an Anglican priest now who is willing to convert with you, you can get neither an ordinariate nor a WRO parish. Neither church is ordaining Anglican rite missionaries to start new congregations de novo. Even in church-thick central Maryland I would have to drive a long way to get to either a WRO parish (there was one in Bethesda, I don't know where they are now) or an ordinariate parish (Mount Calvary, wherever they end up). Practically my choice is limited to one of the local NO-Roman rite parishes; there's a couple of Orthodox parishes close by, but none of them are English-speaking (and at least one if not two of them is Oriental, not Eastern).
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« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2011, 02:46:20 PM »



Well, only time will tell on that, and while I may or may not have doubts on that point, it's not necessarily a factor in decisions made now, but rather a gamble on the future. What is a problem now is that unless you are lucky enough to live close to one of the extant parishes, if you don't have an Anglican priest now who is willing to convert with you, you can get neither an ordinariate nor a WRO parish. Neither church is ordaining Anglican rite missionaries to start new congregations de novo. Even in church-thick central Maryland I would have to drive a long way to get to either a WRO parish (there was one in Bethesda, I don't know where they are now) or an ordinariate parish (Mount Calvary, wherever they end up). Practically my choice is limited to one of the local NO-Roman rite parishes; there's a couple of Orthodox parishes close by, but none of them are English-speaking (and at least one if not two of them is Oriental, not Eastern).

[/quote]

Being in Maryland you could try St Gregory the Great in DC, or St. Patrick in Lewistown MD. There are a couple in Virginia as well. In total between the AWRV and ROCOR there are over 40 at this point in  23 states and in Ontario Canada as well (where there are now 3). We have people who drive 100 miles to attend on Sundays. Of course it is a matter of how important all this is to a person.  Other than Montreal Canada and San Francisco  I don't think there is a major population centre in the USA that is more than a 2 hour drive from a WRO parish, mission or monastery. In Texas you could have your pick for the most part. Yes it is a gamble on the future but what is the option? Swimming the Tiber is not a gamble so much as a slow death sentence at the hands of the people who brought the "fruit" of Vatican II to the world.
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« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2011, 03:39:30 PM »

Well, only time will tell on that, and while I may or may not have doubts on that point, it's not necessarily a factor in decisions made now, but rather a gamble on the future. What is a problem now is that unless you are lucky enough to live close to one of the extant parishes, if you don't have an Anglican priest now who is willing to convert with you, you can get neither an ordinariate nor a WRO parish. Neither church is ordaining Anglican rite missionaries to start new congregations de novo. Even in church-thick central Maryland I would have to drive a long way to get to either a WRO parish (there was one in Bethesda, I don't know where they are now) or an ordinariate parish (Mount Calvary, wherever they end up). Practically my choice is limited to one of the local NO-Roman rite parishes; there's a couple of Orthodox parishes close by, but none of them are English-speaking (and at least one if not two of them is Oriental, not Eastern).

Being in Maryland you could try St Gregory the Great in DC,
http://www.stgregoryoc.org/

or St. Patrick in Lewistown MD.

You mean St. John the Baptist?
http://www.stjohnbaptistorthodox.org/

There are a couple in Virginia as well.
http://stpatrickorthodox.org/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
http://www.orthodoxlynchburg.org/

In total between the AWRV and ROCOR there are over 40 at this point in  23 states and in Ontario Canada as well (where there are now 3). We have people who drive 100 miles to attend on Sundays. Of course it is a matter of how important all this is to a person.
 
Not entirely: ability is a large part as well.

Other than Montreal Canada and San Francisco  I don't think there is a major population centre in the USA that is more than a 2 hour drive from a WRO parish, mission or monastery.
Chicago: I've driven 5 hours to the nearest one, Holy Incarnation in Detroit (Lincoln Park, actually).

Btw, they didn't have an Anglican priest, but a Lutheran pastor.  Though they were given the hospitality of a local Episcopalian parish until they got their own Church (there was a WRO trust set up by a closed WRO parish in Detroit which helped out).

In Texas you could have your pick for the most part.
Not quite yet, but getting there.

Yes it is a gamble on the future but what is the option? Swimming the Tiber is not a gamble so much as a slow death sentence at the hands of the people who brought the "fruit" of Vatican II to the world.
The seed of that came from the rotten fruit of Vatican I. By their fruits ye shall know them.
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« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2011, 03:49:16 PM »

Sorry about that it is St. John the Baptist in Maryland. St. Patrick is in Virginia. There are two WR Churches in the Detroit area one is St. Patrick in Northview which is ROCOR and if you want something more akin to an Anglican patrimony that is the place to contact. Fr. Patrick Lowery, who for a while looked after the old Incarnation Parish, is in charge. Further north in Marion Michigan is Saint John the Wonderworker which is ROCOR WR as well but using the St. Gregory. Depending where you are coming from perhaps the Canadian WR parishes would be closer? or is you are near Wisconsin or Illinois there is a parish in Kenosha WI and Peoria IL.
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« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2011, 04:31:01 PM »

Sorry about that it is St. John the Baptist in Maryland. St. Patrick is in Virginia. There are two WR Churches in the Detroit area one is St. Patrick in Northview which is ROCOR and if you want something more akin to an Anglican patrimony that is the place to contact. Fr. Patrick Lowery, who for a while looked after the old Incarnation Parish, is in charge. Further north in Marion Michigan is Saint John the Wonderworker which is ROCOR WR as well but using the St. Gregory. Depending where you are coming from perhaps the Canadian WR parishes would be closer? or is you are near Wisconsin or Illinois there is a parish in Kenosha WI and Peoria IL.
There is?  Since when? Do you have info?

I'm just in this for moral support: being Arab and my sons being part Romanian, I'm solidly EO.  We don't have to orientalize everyone, though, just convert them.
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« Reply #53 on: March 10, 2011, 04:43:29 PM »

There are continuing positive signs regarding Western converts to Orthodoxy from Anglican origins - and often the success is found in the so-called Eastern-rite.  Take the heartland of the Anglican Church - England.  A ROCOR parish has a fabulous new evangelical missionary website - Joy of All Who Sorrow parish at Mettingham in rural Norfolk, being served by a newly ordained priest Fr. Antony Bardsley.  

See: http://www.joyofallwhosorrow.org.uk/  There is a beautiful video of the consecration of the church by His Eminence Archbishop Mark of Germany and Great Britain to the beautiful Greek fvemale choir singing the troparion to Our Lady.

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« Reply #54 on: March 10, 2011, 04:45:57 PM »

Sorry about that it is St. John the Baptist in Maryland. St. Patrick is in Virginia. There are two WR Churches in the Detroit area one is St. Patrick in Northview which is ROCOR and if you want something more akin to an Anglican patrimony that is the place to contact. Fr. Patrick Lowery, who for a while looked after the old Incarnation Parish, is in charge. Further north in Marion Michigan is Saint John the Wonderworker which is ROCOR WR as well but using the St. Gregory. Depending where you are coming from perhaps the Canadian WR parishes would be closer? or is you are near Wisconsin or Illinois there is a parish in Kenosha WI and Peoria IL.

There is?  Since when? Do you have info?

I'm just in this for moral support: being Arab and my sons being part Romanian, I'm solidly EO.  We don't have to orientalize everyone, though, just convert them.

Have a look at the Mettingham ROCOR parish website to see an example of converts to "eastern" Orthodoxy thriving - building a church, living a parish life with daily services - all in English, all in the English countryside, and with a fair amount of intergration into the surrounding community. http://www.joyofallwhosorrow.org.uk/

Byzantine liturgy and rite.  English Orthodox priest. English language services (with Greek and Slavonic thrown in), multi-national congregation. There is no cultural cringe in this - it is simply Orthodoxy pure and simple. The idea that Western people cannot take to Orthodoxy is dispelled by a parish such as Mettingham.  The world has shrunk - every Orthodox book you need is in English.  Our bishops know how to serve in English. It is time to get over this East-West division and just share the one Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #55 on: March 10, 2011, 04:48:45 PM »

Couldn't Anglicans or other Protestants that wanted to become Orthodox do so without a priest? How many times have missions formed without a priest being there all the time? Obviously it isn't desirable, but Orthodoxy is the pearl of Great Price, right? Wink I don't see why ROCOR or Antioch wouldn't be accomadating to provide a priest as often as possible. They generally have in the past for EO missions.

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« Reply #56 on: March 10, 2011, 04:52:52 PM »

There are continuing positive signs regarding Western converts to Orthodoxy from Anglican origins - and often the success is found in the so-called Eastern-rite.  Take the heartland of the Anglican Church - England.  A ROCOR parish has a fabulous new evangelical missionary website - Joy of All Who Sorrow parish at Mettingham in rural Norfolk, being served by a newly ordained priest Fr. Antony Bardsley.  

See: http://www.joyofallwhosorrow.org.uk/  There is a beautiful video of the consecration of the church by His Eminence Archbishop Mark of Germany and Great Britain to the beautiful Greek fvemale choir singing the troparion to Our Lady.


Yes, yes we know about your prejudices against Western Orthodoxy. We have heard it enough. Would you mind giving some worthwhile contribution instead of being the gadfly all the time? I thought I saw you post something about Forgiveness Vespers and trying to avoid this triumphalism you have over Western Orthodoxy...?

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« Reply #57 on: March 10, 2011, 06:15:41 PM »

Have a look at the Mettingham ROCOR parish website to see an example of converts to "eastern" Orthodoxy thriving - building a church, living a parish life with daily services - all in English, all in the English countryside, and with a fair amount of intergration into the surrounding community. http://www.joyofallwhosorrow.org.uk/

Glory be to God.

Quote
Byzantine liturgy and rite.  English Orthodox priest. English language services (with Greek and Slavonic thrown in), multi-national congregation. There is no cultural cringe in this - it is simply Orthodoxy pure and simple.

Hallelujah!

Quote
The idea that Western people cannot take to Orthodoxy is dispelled by a parish such as Mettingham.

Did someone say that? What an odd idea.

Quote
The world has shrunk - every Orthodox book you need is in English.  Our bishops know how to serve in English. It is time to get over this East-West division and just share the one Orthodoxy.

Amen. Hopefully this will be accomplished through flourishing Orthodox parishes of all approved rites.

Yes, yes we know about your prejudices against Western Orthodoxy. We have heard it enough. Would you mind giving some worthwhile contribution instead of being the gadfly all the time? I thought I saw you post something about Forgiveness Vespers and trying to avoid this triumphalism you have over Western Orthodoxy...?

In Christ,
Andrew

I seem to recall something regarding "Western Rite mythology" in his "apology" and yet he seems to be the one spreading it so frequently around here. Western people cannot take to Orthodoxy? Who believes that?

Ironically, in that same "apology" he mentioned perhaps the biggest "myth" which is that the Western Rites "died" at some point in history. It leaves one wondering what in the world Western Christendom was using after the Great Schism if they up and quit using what they had been using all along...
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« Reply #58 on: March 10, 2011, 06:32:19 PM »

There are continuing positive signs regarding Western converts to Orthodoxy from Anglican origins - and often the success is found in the so-called Eastern-rite.
Not so called. It is an Eastern rite.  Unless you want to argue that London and Istanbul are the same. I've been to both. They're not.

This isn't Egyptian either

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Bridge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptomania

So if the English want to worship Eastern style, carrying much on like the Russian aristocracy speaking and acting French, they are free to do so. Just it is not necessary, nor does their doing so make the Eastern Rite Western on the basis of geography.
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« Reply #59 on: March 10, 2011, 06:45:04 PM »

Sorry about that it is St. John the Baptist in Maryland. St. Patrick is in Virginia. There are two WR Churches in the Detroit area one is St. Patrick in Northview which is ROCOR and if you want something more akin to an Anglican patrimony that is the place to contact. Fr. Patrick Lowery, who for a while looked after the old Incarnation Parish, is in charge. Further north in Marion Michigan is Saint John the Wonderworker which is ROCOR WR as well but using the St. Gregory. Depending where you are coming from perhaps the Canadian WR parishes would be closer? or is you are near Wisconsin or Illinois there is a parish in Kenosha WI and Peoria IL.

There is?  Since when? Do you have info?

I'm just in this for moral support: being Arab and my sons being part Romanian, I'm solidly EO.  We don't have to orientalize everyone, though, just convert them.

Have a look at the Mettingham ROCOR parish website to see an example of converts to "eastern" Orthodoxy thriving - building a church, living a parish life with daily services - all in English, all in the English countryside, and with a fair amount of intergration into the surrounding community. http://www.joyofallwhosorrow.org.uk/

Byzantine liturgy and rite.  English Orthodox priest. English language services (with Greek and Slavonic thrown in), multi-national congregation. There is no cultural cringe in this - it is simply Orthodoxy pure and simple. The idea that Western people cannot take to Orthodoxy is dispelled by a parish such as Mettingham.  The world has shrunk - every Orthodox book you need is in English.  Our bishops know how to serve in English. It is time to get over this East-West division and just share the one Orthodoxy.
Proving yet again that we have to take care of that log first before removing the mote of Latinizations from the Vatican.

Btw, the Russian usage of the rite of Constantinople may be in 62 countries, but the Vatican's Latin rite (NO or TLM) is in every country I can think of.
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« Reply #60 on: May 01, 2011, 05:10:27 PM »

I refer you to the current edition of the ROCOR Australian and New Zealand Diocesn quarterly magazine, Word of the Church Слово Церкви which reprints verbatim an article by Archpriest Phillip Andrews of the UK Diocese of ROCOR:

See:    http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/disang.htm.

The article by Archpriest Andrew Phillips of ROCOR's British Diocese argues that the Western-rite runs the risk of being separated on the fringe from mainstream 'Eastern' Orthodoxy in tiny isolated pockets of modified Anglican worship, Anglo-centric phyletism
Quote
History shows us that tiny ex-Anglican groups, unintegrated into the mainstream of the Orthodox Church, are basically just more ‘Continuing Anglican Churches’
Quote
Why few disillusioned Anglicans will join the Orthodox Church

Introduction

Currently the Church of England is racked by division concerning the ordination of homosexual clergy and female bishops. There are now Anglicans who have already left or who are planning to leave the Church of England because they cannot square such ‘modernisation’ with their consciences. Some speak of ‘the end of the Church of England’. Most who leave seem to join other Protestant groups or else go to Roman Catholicism. A third option is to start a new, or else join an old, ‘Continuing Anglican Church’, of which there are several. A fourth option, the least likely, is to join one of the Orthodox Churches. Why is this fourth option by far the least popular? There are several reasons:

1.Motivation

We must wonder about the motivations of those who object to ‘woman bishops’. The doctrine of the Church of England was largely moulded by a woman, Queen Elizabeth I, and the current head of the Church of England is her namesake, Queen Elizabeth II. The wider Anglican Communion has had ‘woman-bishops’ for years. And what logic is there in the concept that you can have ‘woman-priests’, but not woman-bishops? This is like saying that you can have woman-teachers, but not woman-headteachers. You cannot help suspecting a certain misogyny and clericalism in the opposition to ‘woman-priests’ in what is, after all, a Protestant, that is, non-sacramental, denomination. The reason why female clergy are unthinkable in the Orthodox Church is not because of misogyny, but because Christ-God did not appoint women as apostles. If Anglicans were going to leave the Church of England about female clergy, they should have left when female clergy were first introduced. However, if they wished to join the Orthodox Church because of this issue, then they needed a positive reason to join it, not a negative reason to leave somewhere else.

Again, there is much lack of logic with the question of homosexual clergy. They have existed for generations in the Church of England and relatively openly. A small section of senior clergy of the C of E long ago gained notoriety for sodomy and pedophilia in public schools. As one member of the C of E said to me a few years ago: ‘I can’t see anything wrong with it, as long as they are discreet’. In other words, everything is fine as long as you are hypocritical. Orthodox look for honesty, logic and consistency in the motivation of those who say that they wish to join the Orthodox Church. How otherwise will former Anglicans reach the next stage, when, having formally joined the Church, they actually have to become Orthodox, which can be a very different story.

2.The Tradition, the Liturgy and the Sense of the Sacred

Few Anglicans will join the Orthodox Church because our liturgical heritage is so radically different – the Orthodox Church is nearly 2,000 years old, the Church of England not yet 500 years old. Therefore, in the latter, standing up and singing Victorian or modern songs together and sitting down and listening to long speeches about current events (sermons) is very important. In the Orthodox Church we come to church to pray, following rites which have scarcely changed since apostolic times, as for example is witnessed to by baptism by immersion, confirmation given with baptism, communion in both kinds, communion given to babies, confession, our frequent use of the sign of the cross (and in its original form), the use of candles, incense, a screen, a veil over the altar doors and a seven-branched candlestick. For the same reason of apostolicity, we stand for worship, both our creed and calendar, confirmed in the fourth century, are zealously adhered to and we do not use the novelty of organs or other musical instruments.

Orthodox worship therefore comes as a culture shock to those who come from forms of worship which date back only few generations or at best, a few centuries. Moreover, Anglican worship, when not wholly moulded by modern secularism, is defined by its revolt against Roman Catholicism. And the latter, despite many abuses and deformations, is actually older than that of the Church of England and still has some liturgical sense - though at present its sense of the sacred, of holiness, is often utterly deficient. To be honest, it is clear that Anglicans have simply lost the sense of the Tradition (the inspirations of the Holy Spirit over nearly 2,000 years) and therefore they only have recent human conventions and customs to mould their worship. And in losing the Tradition, Anglicans have also lost the sacraments and sacramental sense. This can be the only explanation for their introduction of female clergy, who, in their case, are social workers – and some of them surely very good social workers - but not priests.

3.The Ascetic Sense

The Orthodox Church is the only original Church, therefore it is an ascetic Church, as it was in the times of St John the Baptist, of the apostles in Jerusalem, as it was in the catacombs, as it was in the deserts of Egypt, as it still is today. Our guardians are in monasticism, which has nothing to do with the secular criteria of the Church of England. The fact that we stand for worship is for example an almost impossible barrier for most Anglicans. The fact that we are called on to fast for half the year is another impossible barrier for most. For example, our whole ethos of preparation for communion, fasting, reading of prayers and confession, is alien to a group in which people are used to having a fried breakfast and then an hour or so later taking communion. It is clear to Orthodox (as also to many Anglicans) that our understanding of communion is totally different. For them it is a mere memorial with bread and wine, for us it is the burning presence of the Body and Blood of Christ.

Prayer, fasting, standing, confession – all these practices are alien to the Church of England and yet essential to the Gospel and therefore to Orthodoxy. Lifelong Orthodox actually believe in the Holy Trinity, the Incarnation and Divinity of Christ, the Resurrection, the Ever-Virginity of the Mother of God, the Cross, Providence, holiness (the Holy Spirit acting in the material world), the saints, the angels, relics, icons and miracles. Anglicans have produced no saints over nearly 500 years (though a very few do speak of St Charles I) and most of them tell me that they are proud of this and that they do not believe in saints. True, we Orthodox are not always very devout in our Orthodoxy and not very punctual at our services, but we would not think of abolishing any of the beliefs of the Church or the practices of prayer, fasting, standing and confession. The Church is the Church, regardless of our human weaknesses. We do not adapt the Church to the world (secularism), as Henry VIII did and as Archbishop Rowan Williams is in fact allowing through weakness. In Orthodoxy, the world adapts to the Church, not the other way round.

4.Becoming Orthodox

Some former Anglicans have in the past joined the Orthodox Church. Many have integrated the Faith and, after joining, have actually become Orthodox. Others, sad to say, having joined the Orthodox Church for negative reasons (disillusionment with the C of E) or for purely academic reasons and not for positive reasons (the realisation that without Orthodoxy their souls will die), and so not become Orthodox. As a result they have tended to split off from the mainstream, closing themselves off in little groups, where they practise what is in fact an approximate if very confused Orthodox rite with Anglican practices, a ‘make it up as you go along’ attitude. This means intercommunion, no confession, no fasting, sitting down during the services (indeed, virtually no services beyond the eucharistic liturgy), the use of Anglican hymns, the use of the Anglican calendar, no iconostasis, parish politics, and ‘protesting’ (= Protestant) attitudes towards Orthodox bishops and resulting divisions and boycotts of their respective cathedrals and bishops.

Another problem here is the refusal by many ex-Anglicans to accept that Orthodoxy is international. Unfortunately, Anglicans who are used to ‘uninational’ parishes find it very difficult to accept the multinational parishes, which are the reality of real Orthodoxy. Without the presence of other Orthodox nationalities, they will not learn Orthodoxy, they will not actually become Orthodox. The presence of ‘foreigners’ among them should be greeted by them and they should accommodate them, accepting parts of the service in ‘foreign’ languages (xenophobes must realise that every ‘foreign’ language is someone else’s native language). The nationalist exclusivity of many ex-Anglicans, to be frank, their phyletism or nationalism, and refusal to come to terms with the sometimes very, very dark national history of England/Britain (1), is not acceptable in the multinational Orthodox world. In our parish we have eighteen nationalities, from Russian to Greek, Romanian to Syrian, Australian to Latvian, French to Bulgarian – this is reality. History shows us that tiny ex-Anglican groups, unintegrated into the mainstream of the Orthodox Church, are basically just more ‘Continuing Anglican Churches’ and are not taken seriously by the rest of the Orthodox Church.

Conclusion

The chances are that most Anglicans will remain in the Church of England, though some will leave for Roman Catholicism and some for various sub-Anglican groups, perhaps headed by ‘African Anglicans’. It is not to be expected that many will wish to join the Orthodox Church – for the four reasons expressed above. Of course, all are welcome to come and see, as is everyone, whatever their background in this country, whether they belong to the 2% who are practising Anglicans or the 98% who are not. Some, as we know, not only do join our Church, but also find their spiritual home with us and in due course become Orthodox. If you can accept us, as we are, welcome! But please do not come with your own agenda or else you will also be disillusioned.

St Edith of Wilton
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« Reply #61 on: May 01, 2011, 05:15:04 PM »

Not to thwart a possible discussion, if people want to talk about this, but is this the same article that was discussed here?

Topics merged together - Arimethea
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« Reply #62 on: May 01, 2011, 05:20:02 PM »

Not to thwart a possible discussion, if people want to talk about this, but is this the same article that was discussed here?
My main interest was the publication of this article in the Australian diocesan magazine and the ramifications of this.
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« Reply #63 on: May 01, 2011, 05:26:11 PM »

Other than reason a portion of reason #4, I'm scratching my head as to what this has to do with the Western Rite?
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« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2011, 05:36:15 PM »

Christ is risen!

I could swear I've dealt with this rather smug and haughty piece before.

IIRC I could swear that I critiqued, if not criticized this article here somewhere, full of unfounded triumphalism as it is.
I thought so.
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« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2011, 05:45:05 PM »

 Cheesy  Cheesy  Cheesy
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« Reply #66 on: May 01, 2011, 05:58:31 PM »

A model example of convertitis.
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« Reply #67 on: May 01, 2011, 06:06:16 PM »

My main interest was the publication of this article in the Australian diocesan magazine and the ramifications of this.

Ok, fair enough Smiley
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