OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 30, 2014, 12:55:55 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Why Few Disillusioned Anglicans Will Join Orthodoxy  (Read 9957 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« on: February 24, 2011, 03:10:24 AM »

Why Few Disillusioned Anglicans Will Join Orthodoxy

http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2010/12/06/why-few-disillusioned-anglicans-will-join-the-orthodox-church/#axzz1EqwDbL75

I thought this would be appropriate where we are discussing Anglican conversion to Western Rite Orthodoxy.   It also occurs to me that the stories of conversion from Fr Michael (Wood) and Sister Margaret (Smythe) would be a wonderful counterbalace to this article.
Logged
Tallitot
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,614



WWW
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2011, 04:36:01 AM »

I was raised Episcopalian, I find it hard to believe the author has any knowledge about Anglicanism.
Logged

Proverbs 22:7
SubdeaconDavid
"...the spread of the light of Orthodoxy among the peoples of all the lands where our Church exists continues as an inseparable part of our mission": Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of ROCOR
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (ROCOR)
Posts: 504


Помилуй мя Боже, по велицей милости Твоей


WWW
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2011, 06:16:59 AM »

Why Few Disillusioned Anglicans Will Join Orthodoxy

http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2010/12/06/why-few-disillusioned-anglicans-will-join-the-orthodox-church/#axzz1EqwDbL75

I thought this would be appropriate where we are discussing Anglican conversion to Western Rite Orthodoxy.   It also occurs to me that the stories of conversion from Fr Michael (Wood) and Sister Margaret (Smythe) would be a wonderful counterbalace to this article.

 With the prayers and eyes of many in Orthodoxy on the tonsuring this Sunday of the Columban WR rule nun, Margaret, and the Abbott of St. Petroc Monastery and his Columban rule, it would indeed be wonderful to hear how Sister Margaret has made the pilgrimage to the Russian Orthodox Church (Paris jurisdiction EP) and from thence to ROCOR's Western-rite.

This is a monumental moment in Western-rite Orthodox history.  It is nothing less than the historic revival of Orthodox Columban monasticism -  the FIRST Columban Order monastics since  the Great Schism. Sister Margaret and her Father Abbott Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) are making history in the United Kingdom - hence my hope that the event will be filmed for the faithful to enjoy and marvel at worldwide.

It would also be a blessing to have the story of the conversion of Abbott Michael (Mansbridge-Wood).  It is a great and wonderful thing to embrace Orthodoxy, and no doubt a very long journey from the Church of England in Australia, to  the  Archdeaconry of Lambeth in the Anglican Rite Jurisdiction of the Americas (ARJA) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_Rite_Jurisdiction_of_the_Americas  to today about to revive the Columban Order and heading a worldwide Paruchia of Western-rite missions, from the Netherlands to Singapore, from the bottom of Australia to the Philippines and of course in the United Kingdom.

Perhaps Columban Order Orthodox Western-rite nuns and monkswill again be seen in full traditional Western habits on the hallowed streets of Canterbury, seat of St. Augustine of Canterbury if not in the beautiful Canterbury Cathedral where prayer has been offered continually since St. Augustine built the Cathedral in 597AD. May the Lord hasten the return of the English people in their thousands to Orthodoxy.

 
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 06:31:02 AM by SubdeaconDavid » Logged

Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco
recent convert
Orthodox Chrisitan
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian (N.A.)
Posts: 1,908


« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2011, 09:24:43 AM »

Most western nations have not persecuted the church; perhaps the church needs to witness the Gospel to them.
Logged

Antiochian OC N.A.
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2011, 09:58:23 AM »

I was raised Episcopalian, I find it hard to believe the author has any knowledge about Anglicanism.

I thought the same thing when I read this a while back. The entire article is incredulous and filled with many fallacies and personal assumptions.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Margaret S.
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 164



« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2011, 11:13:05 AM »

Quote
Perhaps Columban Order Orthodox Western-rite nuns and monkswill again be seen in full traditional Western habits on the hallowed streets of Canterbury, seat of St. Augustine of Canterbury if not in the beautiful Canterbury Cathedral where prayer has been offered continually since St. Augustine built the Cathedral in 597AD. May the Lord hasten the return of the English people in their thousands to Orthodoxy.

I do hate repeating myself but it is not an order. Orthodox monastics do not have orders. As for habits, well, I don't have a bevvy of lay sisters to do my laundering, starching and ironing of miles of white linen for me, so expect something much simpler than the Sound of Music look.

In Christ,
Margaret
Logged
Margaret S.
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 164



« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2011, 11:28:26 AM »

I was raised Episcopalian, I find it hard to believe the author has any knowledge about Anglicanism.

Yep. Unlike a fair number of Orthodox clergy in England nowadays I don't think Fr Andrew was ever Anglican. He seems to have converted to Orthodoxy from unbelief and then married an Orthodox woman.

Best wishes,
Margaret
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,815



« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2011, 11:46:10 AM »

IIRC I could swear that I critiqued, if not criticized this article here somewhere, full of unfounded triumphalism as it is.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2011, 11:47:32 AM »

My sense is that the social problems in the UK will eventually lead to an opportunity for native Orthodoxy to spread there.  Whether it will become the majority religion, I sincerely doubt it.

However, I think it has the potential to match the actual percentages of practicing Russian Orthodox in Russia and Greek Orthodox in Greece, roughly 10% of the population averaging out the two. 

The same would be a good target here in the US.  Right now we are at something like 1/3 of 1%.

But, seriously, the Anglicans as a group have to make a vast number of mental and spiritual changes in order to convert, which I'm not entirely certain can be done as a group.  It seems to me that counting on mass exoduses is quite unreasonable.  Orthodoxy does seem to do well with individual conversions, and we are now just entering a stage where this is possible without converts having to learn a different language.
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
recent convert
Orthodox Chrisitan
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian (N.A.)
Posts: 1,908


« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2011, 12:23:24 PM »

C.S. Lewis seems to be highly regarded in many Orthodox circles is it possible that the faith could be articulated in English speaking areas (& others perhaps?) in a similar fashion as he articulated Christianity in basic terms? Personally I feel like part of a multitude examples of the fallout effect of an eventual "dead on arrival" status that awaits  much of the diaspora contingent since even my father was cradle Orthodox & knew nothing about it even though he attended divine liturgies (in Arabic) until high school age. Or maybe I should just shut my trap.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 12:24:00 PM by recent convert » Logged

Antiochian OC N.A.
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2011, 01:11:16 PM »

Or maybe I should just shut my trap.

Please don't.  I think you brought up some excellent points in your post.
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,891



« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2011, 01:19:37 PM »

That article was so ridiculous that I had to stop reading it halfway through.
Logged
recent convert
Orthodox Chrisitan
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian (N.A.)
Posts: 1,908


« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2011, 01:23:23 PM »

Or maybe I should just shut my trap.

Please don't.  I think you brought up some excellent points in your post.
Well maybe I need to calm down also; thanks. Please do not let me pose any discouragement in your seeking the Orthodox faith it is the way, the truth & the fullness. I guess I have developed a soft spot for high Anglicanism; I attended Evensong at St. David's Cathedral in Wales & in Exeter cathedral in England (St. David of Wales, my other 1/2, is my patron saint & perhaps I should ask for more of his prayers).
Logged

Antiochian OC N.A.
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,924


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2011, 01:49:57 PM »

Why Few Disillusioned Anglicans Will Join Orthodoxy

http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2010/12/06/why-few-disillusioned-anglicans-will-join-the-orthodox-church/#axzz1EqwDbL75

I thought this would be appropriate where we are discussing Anglican conversion to Western Rite Orthodoxy.   It also occurs to me that the stories of conversion from Fr Michael (Wood) and Sister Margaret (Smythe) would be a wonderful counterbalace to this article.

My Priest and all his family ( which includes our choir director) were Anglican (Episcopal). My wife as well.

I knew a Buddhist who converted to Anglican because if was liberal enough to match his world view and not hassle him too much about being gay.

He bought the line that they are Apostolic, which was important to him even though it doesn't really hold water.
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2011, 02:27:10 PM »

I was raised Episcopalian, I find it hard to believe the author has any knowledge about Anglicanism.

I thought the same thing when I read this a while back. The entire article is incredulous and filled with many fallacies and personal assumptions.

One of which being:

"Of course, all are welcome to come and see, as is everyone, whatever their background in this country, whether they belong to the 2% who are practising Anglicans or the 98% who are not."

Hey buddy, the Orthodox don't have the best record for church attendance either, so I wouldn't be casting stones!
Logged
SubdeaconDavid
"...the spread of the light of Orthodoxy among the peoples of all the lands where our Church exists continues as an inseparable part of our mission": Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of ROCOR
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (ROCOR)
Posts: 504


Помилуй мя Боже, по велицей милости Твоей


WWW
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2011, 02:59:24 PM »

Quote
Perhaps Columban Order Orthodox Western-rite nuns and monkswill again be seen in full traditional Western habits on the hallowed streets of Canterbury, seat of St. Augustine of Canterbury if not in the beautiful Canterbury Cathedral where prayer has been offered continually since St. Augustine built the Cathedral in 597AD. May the Lord hasten the return of the English people in their thousands to Orthodoxy.

I do hate repeating myself but it is not an order. Orthodox monastics do not have orders. As for habits, well, I don't have a bevvy of lay sisters to do my laundering, starching and ironing of miles of white linen for me, so expect something much simpler than the Sound of Music look.

In Christ,
Margaret
OK OK Columban Rule and Orthodox Western-rite do have orders - the monks of ROCOR's Christ the Savior Monastery in Canada are Benedictine - O.S.B. and their professed monastics use the title "Dom" or "Dominus" as has been used in the Benedictine Order since the time of St. Benedict, father of Western monasticism.
 See http://christminster.org/western-orthodoxy/

The Benedictine nun of St. Benet House, the convent adjacent to Christ the Savior Benedictine WR monastery is at present solitary and has a very nice habit with a white wimple which I would not call "sound of Music", just traditional Western.  http://christminster.org/about/photos/ There is also a photo of Sister Sophia in your own paruchia website in a very nice banner: http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/christminster-monastery/

Is the Columban rule also being followed by your Abbott and any other monastics of the Petroc paruchia?  May their prayers and the prayers of the Orthodox faithful be with you in this last 48 hours before you make your vows.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 03:09:20 PM by SubdeaconDavid » Logged

Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco
Margaret S.
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 164



« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2011, 03:34:28 PM »

Quote
OK OK Columban Rule and Orthodox Western-rite do have orders - the monks of ROCOR's Christ the Savior Monastery in Canada are Benedictine - O.S.B. and their professed monastics use the title "Dom" or "Dominus" as has been used in the Benedictine Order since the time of St. Benedict, father of Western monasticism.
 See http://christminster.org/western-orthodoxy/

Yes, in my anxiety to reiterate that I am not joining any Columban Order I am sorry to say I forgot about the Benedictines of Christminster.

Quote
The Benedictine nun of St. Benet House, the convent adjacent to Christ the Savior Benedictine WR monastery is at present solitary and has a very nice habit with a white wimple which I would not call "sound of Music", just traditional Western.  http://christminster.org/about/photos/ There is also a photo of Sister Sophia in your own paruchia website in a very nice banner: http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/christminster-monastery/

The chances of me wearing anything like that are quite remote.

Quote
Is the Columban rule also being followed by your Abbott and any other monastics of the Petroc paruchia?  May their prayers and the prayers of the Orthodox faithful be with you in this last 48 hours before you make your vows.

The rule of St Columba seems to me very generalised and very simple, beautiful in its simplicity, and little more than umpteen Christians I know strive for in their lives without being monastics. I am at a complete loss to see why Fr Michael's giving it to me has produced so much interest.
Logged
SubdeaconDavid
"...the spread of the light of Orthodoxy among the peoples of all the lands where our Church exists continues as an inseparable part of our mission": Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of ROCOR
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (ROCOR)
Posts: 504


Помилуй мя Боже, по велицей милости Твоей


WWW
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2011, 06:19:31 PM »

Quote
OK OK Columban Rule and Orthodox Western-rite do have orders - the monks of ROCOR's Christ the Savior Monastery in Canada are Benedictine - O.S.B. and their professed monastics use the title "Dom" or "Dominus" as has been used in the Benedictine Order since the time of St. Benedict, father of Western monasticism.
 See http://christminster.org/western-orthodoxy/

Yes, in my anxiety to reiterate that I am not joining any Columban Order I am sorry to say I forgot about the Benedictines of Christminster.

Quote
The Benedictine nun of St. Benet House, the convent adjacent to Christ the Savior Benedictine WR monastery is at present solitary and has a very nice habit with a white wimple which I would not call "sound of Music", just traditional Western.  http://christminster.org/about/photos/ There is also a photo of Sister Sophia in your own paruchia website in a very nice banner: http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/christminster-monastery/

The chances of me wearing anything like that are quite remote.

Quote
Is the Columban rule also being followed by your Abbott and any other monastics of the Petroc paruchia?  May their prayers and the prayers of the Orthodox faithful be with you in this last 48 hours before you make your vows.

The rule of St Columba seems to me very generalised and very simple, beautiful in its simplicity, and little more than umpteen Christians I know strive for in their lives without being monastics. I am at a complete loss to see why Fr Michael's giving it to me has produced so much interest.
  Because what Abbott Michael is doing in reviving Orthodox monastic life under the Columban rule is historic and is reviving a monastic rule/order lost to Orthodoxy for a thousand years
Logged

Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco
JimCBrooklyn
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate-Diocese of Saint Petersburg/ROCOR-Diocese of Eastern America and New York
Posts: 569


Если бога нет, то все позволено


« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2011, 07:23:45 PM »

That article was so ridiculous that I had to stop reading it halfway through.
Same.

According to the author, one would essentially have to have already been Orthodox in order to convert to Orthodoxy.

Where did the poster above get the 10% practicing in Russia figure? It seems higher to me here...
Logged

It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.
-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2011, 07:54:06 PM »

Quote
Perhaps Columban Order Orthodox Western-rite nuns and monkswill again be seen in full traditional Western habits on the hallowed streets of Canterbury, seat of St. Augustine of Canterbury if not in the beautiful Canterbury Cathedral where prayer has been offered continually since St. Augustine built the Cathedral in 597AD. May the Lord hasten the return of the English people in their thousands to Orthodoxy.

I do hate repeating myself but it is not an order. Orthodox monastics do not have orders.
Margaret

Dear Sister Margaret,

I have a message from Fr Michael Wood, probably 20 days ago ,and he is adamant that Fr Joshua Anna and the monastery in New Mexico is not Benedictine but Columbian [sic].
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 07:56:06 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2011, 08:00:12 PM »

Here is a lower figure...

http://www.ocanews.org/news/Wikileaks12.10.10.html

Metropolitan Hilarion is quoted as saying only 5% of Russians regularly attend church. 

The ROC has roughly 30,000 parishes to serve 100,000,000 people, meaning that each parish has, on average, 3,000 communicants.  This is highly unlikely from a logistical standpoint. There are less that 29,000 priests, meaning that the average priest-to-communicant ratio is even higher and thus making it even more unlikely that Metropolitan Hilarion's number are far off.

Here's some statistics for the Church of Greece...

http://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches/regions/europe/greece/church-of-greece.html

The Church of Greece has roughly 7,700 parishes for 10,000,000 Greeks, putting about 1,200-1,300 people in each parish.  Again, an improbably high ratio.  However, if you take 1,200 and reduce it to 10%, you get the average capacity and attendance of the typical parish church (averaging out the cathedrals and chapels).

Some may accuse my number of 10% as being overly generous.


That article was so ridiculous that I had to stop reading it halfway through.
Same.

According to the author, one would essentially have to have already been Orthodox in order to convert to Orthodoxy.

Where did the poster above get the 10% practicing in Russia figure? It seems higher to me here...
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2011, 08:13:01 PM »


Is the Columban rule also being followed by your Abbott and any other monastics of the Petroc paruchia? 


It seems that this belief that Hieromonk Michael (Wood) (Mansbridge-Wood) is an Abbot is a fallacy which is gaining some traction and it is repeated multiple times on his Website  http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/

A senior priest of the Western Rite enquired of Fr Michael's bishop ands received a reply, 12 days ago: "Fr. Michael Wood is not an abbot -- only a priestmonk."

Many of us were confused for a while because of the website and began to use the term "Abbot."  However, the website is unreliable and should not be taken too seriously.
Logged
Margaret S.
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 164



« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2011, 08:43:50 PM »

Quote
Perhaps Columban Order Orthodox Western-rite nuns and monkswill again be seen in full traditional Western habits on the hallowed streets of Canterbury, seat of St. Augustine of Canterbury if not in the beautiful Canterbury Cathedral where prayer has been offered continually since St. Augustine built the Cathedral in 597AD. May the Lord hasten the return of the English people in their thousands to Orthodoxy.

I do hate repeating myself but it is not an order. Orthodox monastics do not have orders.
Margaret

Dear Sister Margaret,

I have a message from Fr Michael Wood, probably 20 days ago ,and he is adamant that Fr Joshua Anna and the monastery in New Mexico is not Benedictine but Columbian [sic].

Dear Father Ambrose,

A Rule and an Order are not the same thing.
Logged
Margaret S.
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 164



« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2011, 08:52:01 PM »


Is the Columban rule also being followed by your Abbott and any other monastics of the Petroc paruchia? 


It seems that this belief that Hieromonk Michael (Wood) (Mansbridge-Wood) is an Abbot is a fallacy which is gaining some traction and it is repeated multiple times on his Website  http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/

A senior priest of the Western Rite enquired of Fr Michael's bishop ands received a reply, 12 days ago: "Fr. Michael Wood is not an abbot -- only a priestmonk."

Many of us were confused for a while because of the website and began to use the term "Abbot."  However, the website is unreliable and should not be taken too seriously.

I am sure you were not confused for a moment, Father, and I'm rather surprised at you recycling a topic so soon. Didn't we discuss this around ten days ago? http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33774.msg533791.html#msg533791 - message 35.

Margaret
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2011, 09:02:47 PM »


Is the Columban rule also being followed by your Abbott and any other monastics of the Petroc paruchia? 


It seems that this belief that Hieromonk Michael (Wood) (Mansbridge-Wood) is an Abbot is a fallacy which is gaining some traction and it is repeated multiple times on his Website  http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/

A senior priest of the Western Rite enquired of Fr Michael's bishop ands received a reply, 12 days ago: "Fr. Michael Wood is not an abbot -- only a priestmonk."

Many of us were confused for a while because of the website and began to use the term "Abbot."  However, the website is unreliable and should not be taken too seriously.

I am sure you were not confused for a moment, Father, and I'm rather surprised at you recycling a topic so soon. Didn't we discuss this around ten days ago? http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33774.msg533791.html#msg533791 - message 35.

Margaret

Unfortunately the claim to abbacy goes on being propagated on the pages of the website

I have decided to promote myself from Hieromonk to Abbot  ~~  Abbot Ambrose of Shatalova Pustyn (the name the Russian boys have carved on my cottage!)  What am I talking about?  Early dementia?  I am already a Protosyngellos and outrank an Abbot !!  laugh
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 09:05:40 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2011, 09:27:15 PM »


Is the Columban rule also being followed by your Abbott and any other monastics of the Petroc paruchia? 


It seems that this belief that Hieromonk Michael (Wood) (Mansbridge-Wood) is an Abbot is a fallacy which is gaining some traction and it is repeated multiple times on his Website  http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/

A senior priest of the Western Rite enquired of Fr Michael's bishop ands received a reply, 12 days ago: "Fr. Michael Wood is not an abbot -- only a priestmonk."

Many of us were confused for a while because of the website and began to use the term "Abbot."  However, the website is unreliable and should not be taken too seriously.

I am sure you were not confused for a moment,


And that makes it all the stranger that the website and its webmaster are so confused and presenting false information about this claimed abbacy!

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/

Logged
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,014


"My god is greater."


« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2011, 09:41:38 PM »

Fr. Ambrose, what do you hope to gain with all this prodding and nitpicking?
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2011, 09:51:17 PM »

Fr. Ambrose, what do you hope to gain with all this prodding and nitpicking?

The truth.  The removal of the false claim from the website.  And above all, protection for the integrity of my beloved Russian Church Abroad. 

Anglicans are great sticklers for honesty and if it be known that our man in charge of converting them in the UK is playing fast and loose with the truth and claiming a rank which he does not hold it will spell the end of the Metropolitan's hopes for the Western Rite missionary effort in the UK. 
Logged
Reader Polycarp
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2011, 11:19:12 PM »

I posted this elsewhere earlier. It is easy to rectify any issue as to Fr. Michael (Wood) being an Abbot.

"As I was scrolling through the various websites that Fr. Michael (Wood) has spawned, this news item he reported from last year came up.

"NEW ABBOT
Wednesday 10th March 2010: His Eminence, Metropolitan Hilarion, Primate of ROCOR has issued a proclamation, naming Fr. David (Pierce) of Holyrood Hermitage as Abbot of the Monastery of the Holy Dormition of Our Lady of Mount Royal. The proclamation names Abbot Augustine (Whitfield) as the Abbot Emeritus. Abbot Augustine remains in hospital under ongoing care. Mount Royal was originally received into Orthodoxy in 1962 by Bishop Dositheus."

Could Fr. Michael please share with us the proclamation that, like the one issued for Fr. David (Pierce), elevated him to the rank of Abbot?

This simple piece of information will settle all the unhappy controversy on the subject."
Logged
SubdeaconDavid
"...the spread of the light of Orthodoxy among the peoples of all the lands where our Church exists continues as an inseparable part of our mission": Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of ROCOR
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (ROCOR)
Posts: 504


Помилуй мя Боже, по велицей милости Твоей


WWW
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2011, 03:07:39 PM »

Quote
Perhaps Columban Order Orthodox Western-rite nuns and monkswill again be seen in full traditional Western habits on the hallowed streets of Canterbury, seat of St. Augustine of Canterbury if not in the beautiful Canterbury Cathedral where prayer has been offered continually since St. Augustine built the Cathedral in 597AD. May the Lord hasten the return of the English people in their thousands to Orthodoxy.

I do hate repeating myself but it is not an order. Orthodox monastics do not have orders.
Margaret

Dear Sister Margaret,

I have a message from Fr Michael Wood, probably 20 days ago ,and he is adamant that Fr Joshua Anna and the monastery in New Mexico is not Benedictine but Columbian [sic].

Dear Father Ambrose,

A Rule and an Order are not the same thing.
  I fail to see the problem for Western-rite Orthodox to follow Western tradition and call an Order an Order.  That is Western tradition.  Granted it was different i n the Eastern Church but the Order of St. Benedict as a distinct and named Order in Western Orthodoxy precedes the Great Schism by a long time.  So it is clear that there was a Western Benedictine Order in the Orthodox Church, which I imagine is why the Russian Church Abroad has a separate Western-rite Order of St. Benedict (O.S.B.) in Canada.  There is no need for Western-rite Orthodox to copy Eastern Orthodox custom in this - just as you have your own mass, your own offices, your own ecclesiastical structure (in ROCOR) I think it much better for you to follow Western monastic tradition and accept that following the Rule of St. Columbanus makes you a Columban Order nun. 

If as Fr. Ambrose is correct in saying that Abbott Michael (Mansbridge-Wood/Wood) has said that Prior Joshua (Anna) is Columban, then that is a reason for doubly rejoicing, as the Columban "Order" in your WR has male and female monastics.
Logged

Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2011, 03:25:23 PM »

Quote
Perhaps Columban Order Orthodox Western-rite nuns and monkswill again be seen in full traditional Western habits on the hallowed streets of Canterbury, seat of St. Augustine of Canterbury if not in the beautiful Canterbury Cathedral where prayer has been offered continually since St. Augustine built the Cathedral in 597AD. May the Lord hasten the return of the English people in their thousands to Orthodoxy.

I do hate repeating myself but it is not an order. Orthodox monastics do not have orders.
Margaret

Dear Sister Margaret,

I have a message from Fr Michael Wood, probably 20 days ago ,and he is adamant that Fr Joshua Anna and the monastery in New Mexico is not Benedictine but Columbian [sic].
Are you talking about the Monastary in Albuquerque?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
SubdeaconDavid
"...the spread of the light of Orthodoxy among the peoples of all the lands where our Church exists continues as an inseparable part of our mission": Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of ROCOR
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (ROCOR)
Posts: 504


Помилуй мя Боже, по велицей милости Твоей


WWW
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2011, 03:29:19 PM »

I posted this elsewhere earlier. It is easy to rectify any issue as to Fr. Michael (Wood) being an Abbot.

"As I was scrolling through the various websites that Fr. Michael (Wood) has spawned, this news item he reported from last year came up.

"NEW ABBOT
Wednesday 10th March 2010: His Eminence, Metropolitan Hilarion, Primate of ROCOR has issued a proclamation, naming Fr. David (Pierce) of Holyrood Hermitage as Abbot of the Monastery of the Holy Dormition of Our Lady of Mount Royal. The proclamation names Abbot Augustine (Whitfield) as the Abbot Emeritus. Abbot Augustine remains in hospital under ongoing care. Mount Royal was originally received into Orthodoxy in 1962 by Bishop Dositheus."

Could Fr. Michael please share with us the proclamation that, like the one issued for Fr. David (Pierce), elevated him to the rank of Abbot?

This simple piece of information will settle all the unhappy controversy on the subject."

Perhaps the missionary efforts of the Petroc Paruchia has got ahead of the publication of the Ukaze appointing Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood/Wood) to the Abbatial rank, a matter which could be easily remedied as Reader Polycarp suggests.  One wonders whether the abbatial rank within ROCOR includes the usual Western right to wear a mitre and carry a crozier, normally the marks of the dignity of an Abbott.  

Now that the St. Petroc Paruchia appears to have revived the Columban rule or Order, with Fr. Michael (Mansbridge-Wood/Wood) as it's head, I see no problem with the Order having an abbott as it's head.  Perhaps Father Abbott Michael will be able to join his prior in New Mexico and we will thus see the development of a real monastery attracting novices and vocations.  I read on Facebook that there is a Greek reader very keen to commence monastic life in the Petrochian New Mexico monastery. The St. Petroc Monastery system appears to be based on single figure monastic communities, hence the semi-eremitic designation of St. Petroc.http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/st-petroc-monastery/

  It would be wonderful to see those single monastics drawn together into a real community in this  Petrochian New Mexico Columban monastery.

Logged

Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2011, 08:22:58 PM »

Quote
Perhaps Columban Order Orthodox Western-rite nuns and monkswill again be seen in full traditional Western habits on the hallowed streets of Canterbury, seat of St. Augustine of Canterbury if not in the beautiful Canterbury Cathedral where prayer has been offered continually since St. Augustine built the Cathedral in 597AD. May the Lord hasten the return of the English people in their thousands to Orthodoxy.

I do hate repeating myself but it is not an order. Orthodox monastics do not have orders.
Margaret

Dear Sister Margaret,

I have a message from Fr Michael Wood, probably 20 days ago ,and he is adamant that Fr Joshua Anna and the monastery in New Mexico is not Benedictine but Columbian [sic].
Are you talking about the Monastary in Albuquerque?

Listed at

http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Groups.html

New Mexico
Monastery of St. George
2521 N. Main St., Unit 1, #198
Las Cruces, New Mexico 88001  USA
575 636 0366
Fr. Hieromonk Joshua (Anna),
Subdeacon Vladimir
Logged
Reader Polycarp
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2011, 03:14:04 AM »

Order as a noun is a group of people united in a formal manner. Although in a official sense there is not in the structure of Orthodoxy an "Order of St. Benedict" in reality it exists. The order though is defined by the Rule and the Rule requires a form of collegiality. Collegiality requires respect. There is nothing subversive about this. In recognition of this there have been several monks appointed in the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad as Abbots and with that dignity they are able to exercise certain prerogatives that a "Superior" (such as Fr. Michael) cannot do.

I think it is picky to argue the point whether Orthodoxy has Orders or not. Historically it had but if one wants to be reduce the argument to its essential point there is definitely a Benedictine Rule and there are Abbots that are appointed to facilitate "order" as a verb through the authority granted them.

Although the "Rule" of St. Columba has a list of maxims and directions it is not a "rule" in a comprehensive form and has no clear provision for order or collegiality and most importantly no long standing tradition. While in Orthodoxy there was about a 650 year hiatus in Benedictine monasticism from about 1260-1300 on Mr. Athos to its reappearance in the mid 1900's nevertheless monks in community following the Benedictine Rule (in its various forms and iterations) not only survived the Schism for about 200 years plus a bit but was the order from which many an Orthodox Pope in Rome was drawn.  The Western Rite, as as has been handed down to us, is deeply Benedictine in ethos and while there is no restriction, nor should there be, as to the use of other rules the fact is that anything else in the modern context is an exercise in historical reconstruction. That may be a good thing and I wish people well but the fact of the matter is that the Benedictine Rule, and its centering on a community rather than the charism of an individual, is more in keeping with Orthodoxy than other forms that rely on the personality of an individual.
Logged
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,256

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2011, 01:08:50 PM »

Very interesting post, Reader Polycarp.
Logged
Margaret S.
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 164



« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2011, 08:31:33 PM »

I think it is picky to argue the point whether Orthodoxy has Orders or not....

Well, here's the deal, I have not been admitted to an Order but if you want to talk about some Order of Columcille then feel free, just don't associate me with it.

Margaret
Logged
Reader Polycarp
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2011, 09:31:12 PM »

I don't think there is any particular importance to what is an Order or not. The fact that people regard something as an "Order" should be reason enough to call it such. Essentially following a Rule may or may not make a person a part of an Order but to be a part of an Order a person needs to follow a Rule. The Benedictine Order is not the same as the various Roman Catholic Orders in that it is not rules by a "Superior" but having a system of "Independent houses" which means that each Abby is autonomous. It is precisely because of this the Benedictine form of Monasticism has fit so well into the Orthodox ethos. When in the other Orders appeared in the West that had a number of houses which were ruled by a "Superior" the system demanded a greater authority yet, that being the Pope. Most definitely a system that has a Superior and subservient monastic houses would approximate an Order but how would that system derive its authority? The Benedictine Rule provides for the selection of an Abbot but given the relative weakness of Western Monastic structure today that authority is handed down, rather than simply being confirmed, by the Bishops. Essentially there may be various "monastic rules" but a rule can create a problem or it can facilitate sanctity. The genius of the Benedictine Rule, strictly applied, is that there is no reliance on a particular person and his or hers charism.  A system that has a Superior over dependent monastic houses is an altogether system and in my opinion not as good of a fit with Orthodoxy as the Benedictine model.
Logged
Reader Polycarp
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2011, 09:33:49 PM »

I should at the end said "altogether DIFFERENT system".
Logged
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2011, 03:20:42 AM »

Quote
Authority structure

A Religious Order is characterized by an authority structure where a superior general has jurisdiction over the order's dependent communities. An exception is the Order of St Benedict which is not a religious order in this technical sense, because it has a system of "independent houses", meaning that each abbey is autonomous. However, the Constitutions governing the order's global "independent houses" were approved by the pope. Likewise, according to rank and authority, the abbot primate's "position with regard to the other abbots [throughout the world] is to be understood rather from the analogy of a primate in a hierarchy than from that of the general of an order like the Dominicans and Jesuits."

As for the rule of St Columbanus...we shall see if it will last because many eventually became benedictine:

Quote
In 628, when Saint Bertulf made a pilgrimage to Rome, Pope Honorius I exempted Bobbio from episcopal jurisdiction, thus making the abbey immediately subject to the Holy See. Under the next abbot, Bobolen, the Rule of St. Benedict was introduced. At first its observance was optional, but in the course of time it superseded the harsher Rule of St. Columbanus, and Bobbio joined the Congregation of Monte Cassino. In 643, at the request of Rotharis and Queen Gundelberga, Pope Theodore I granted to the Abbot of Bobbio the use of the mitre and other pontificals.

Probably your materials for some of St Columbanus prayers, rule or something similar may come from the "Bangor Antiphonary' preserved from that particular abbey.

Quote
Most Benedictine Houses are loosely affiliated in twenty national or supra-national congregations. Each of these congregations elects its own Abbot President or "Abbot General". These presidents meet annually in the Synod of Presidents. Additionally, there is a meeting every four years of the Congress of Abbots, which is made up of all abbots and conventual priors, both of Houses that are members of congregations, as well as of those unaffiliated with any particular congregation. The Congress of Abbots elects the Abbot Primate, who serves a four-year term as the Confederation's representative and administrative head, although without direct jurisdiction of the individual Congregations.

The Confederation has its headquarters at Sant'Anselmo in Rome, which is the seat of the Abbot Primate and hosts the quadrennial Congress of Abbots. Sant'Anselmo is also home to the Benedictine Pontifical Athenaeum.

Communities of Benedictine women are joined in sixty-one congregations and federations that are associated with the Confederation, although they do not have full membership. In November 2001 after a consultation process with all monasteries of Benedictine women around the world, it was decided to use the name Communio Internationalis Benedictinarum (CIB) to designate all communities of Benedictine women recognized by the Abbot Primate as such and listed in the Catalogus Monasteriorum O.S.B.

The first attempt to group Benedictine monasteries into national Congregations was at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. Only the English Benedictine Congregation survives from this early attempt at centralisation, and in historical reality even this Congregation is a 17th century foundation although it was given juridical continuity with the medieval English Congregation by the Papal Bull "Plantata" of 1633. Primacy of honour is given to the Cassinese Congregation (which had its origin in the Congregation of Santa Giustina, Padua, founded in 1408 by Lodovico Barbo), since this Congregation includes Monte Cassino Abbey, where St Benedict wrote his Rule and was buried (although Fleury Abbey also claims to house the remains of the saint).

The whole idea of using earlier western monastic rules which all disappeared by the time of the schism, is a nice idea in theory, however I do have concerns as to how practical it is.

Although Charlemagne enforced the benedictine rule on many, I do not know that it was really something that was protestested by monks and nuns in the time when that happened. So many seem to have voluntarily converted over to the benedictine rule without his influence.

This is an important question in the analysis of primitive latin monasticism and it's heritage.
Why it's more rigourous rules seemed to disappear while those of the east survived is a great mystery for me.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 03:29:12 AM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2011, 03:33:55 AM »

I agree with you, Polycarp.

What in the world the Latin Catholic Church would do if it tried to come into Communion with Orthodoxy and decentralize its orders is hard to imagine..

The whole authority structure within the Latin Papal Church is interconnected with who it is by now, both the cause of many problems and the cause of its identity..

I don't think it's a hopeless scenario at all..but more difficult than many imagine to rememedy the ethos of it, where the authority become self destructive...
Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2011, 03:41:56 AM »

As for the real reason most anglicans don't become orthodox is..

I think it is partially xenophobia..going both ways. (West toward East and East toward West)

Partially the perception that east and west are too different..(you notice the intellectuals who studied liturgical and early church history come over the most I think)
Partially poor reception by interested parties interested in becoming Orthodox in the past given a cold shoulder.

Apparently a good many anglicans who were interested in Orthodox were in fact told to "go away because you're not _fill in the blank nationality_ back in the 1960's and previous decades.
I've heard this story told over and over again by many traditionalist anglicans. It's had at least 4 decades to build itself into a legend.

Another legend is that the Western rite's in the Orthodox Church are not authentic and are overly byzantized. This is largely a myth I think, but it sure is popping up frequently on Papal Ordinariate liturgy conversations these days. Certain liturgies of the western rite within vagante groups or ROCOR might be byzantized too much, but the fact that hardly anyone uses them probably tells one who investigares that they arent much to be concerned about. (Most do not investigate very deeply)

His Excellency Kallistos Ware had this sort of experience when the greek orthodox priest said "if you think you may want to be a priest, you might want to go to the russians because they will ordain anyone, we prefer greeks" (paraphrasing here.)

The reputation going around them that you have to be ethnic to be Orthodox still is pervasive.
Thats largely why so many will join the Ordinariate, even though it has profound weaknesses with all the modernism and liberal protestant influence lingering about within the Papal church, it still lets them feel in harmony with other westerners and being under a culturally western bishop (crazy as many think the novus ordo-post vatican II baggage is, they'd rather put up with it for now).

I mean if you think about it...Anglicans and Episcopals have become so desentized to liberal christianity and compromises with heterodoxy within their recent history that the Papal Catholic Church and the compromised positions and chaos it's in are familiar enough to be recognizable, yet not nearly as bad as their recent anglican communion... The Orthodox are just..too Orthodox..?

But we ought not feel too bad, many of the anglicans and lutherans who come to Holy Orthodoxy are the best and brightest or most pious in some sense. Quality, over quantity.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 03:51:51 AM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
Margaret S.
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 164



« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2011, 05:01:56 AM »

Quote
As for the rule of St Columbanus...we shall see if it will last because many eventually became benedictine:

Who is using the Rule of St Columbanus?

Best wishes,
Margaret
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2011, 06:15:22 AM »

Has this piece of writing from Fr Andrew Philips in the UK been mentioned?

"To Members of the Church of England
who are Unhappy at the Degradation of
their Communion and might consider ‘the Orthodox Option’"

http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/memscoe.htm
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,418



« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2011, 06:39:10 AM »

The basic reason why few Episcopalians will jump ship to either conventional Orthodox or Catholic churches is that the vast majority of them look upon the current mess as a going off the rails of something that used to be working just fine. Thus they are not all that susceptible to chucking their entire tradition and starting over again. To keep their traditions, well, that requires bringing their priest with them, and that's why the ordinariate in particular is going to be minuscule in this country, but it's also an impediment to WRO.
Logged
Reader Polycarp
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2011, 10:51:22 AM »

The basic reason why few Episcopalians will jump ship to either conventional Orthodox or Catholic churches is that the vast majority of them look upon the current mess as a going off the rails of something that used to be working just fine. Thus they are not all that susceptible to chucking their entire tradition and starting over again. To keep their traditions, well, that requires bringing their priest with them, and that's why the ordinariate in particular is going to be minuscule in this country, but it's also an impediment to WRO.

Episcopalians/Anglicans bringing their priest with them is a snap in WRO. Probably the big bulk of parishes in ROCOR or the AWRV have clergy who "came over". As a matter of fact this is the norm. In the case of ROCOR there is absolutely no interest in gaining access to parish assets or property as well. What will be important will be a firm adherence to the Orthodox faith. By that it will not mean acceptance of a Byzantinized Western Liturgy as (opposed to popular opinion) that is not the case. I can speak from direct and extensive  experience in all these matters. In the last year in North America alone there have been (or in the immediate works) about 20 parishes or monasteries that have come into ROCOR. If anyone whats confirmation as to what I write, contact me off list and I will direct anyone who is serious to the proper channels.

Father Deacon Robert (as of yesterday) ROCOR
Logged
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2011, 11:03:28 AM »

Perhaps they just view the situation as trading one insane asylum for another.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,815



« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2011, 11:44:35 AM »

The basic reason why few Episcopalians will jump ship to either conventional Orthodox or Catholic churches is that the vast majority of them look upon the current mess as a going off the rails of something that used to be working just fine. Thus they are not all that susceptible to chucking their entire tradition and starting over again. To keep their traditions, well, that requires bringing their priest with them, and that's why the ordinariate in particular is going to be minuscule in this country, but it's also an impediment to WRO.

until they try to keeping their married priests with them.

Given the Vatican's problems with its mandated clerical celibacy and those trying to change it, and the so called sui juris churches forced to adopt the practed in this country trying to get the Vatican to make good its renigged promises in its union schemes, the Anglican use parishes won't be allowed to keep their tradition of married clergy. So they will then have to decide whether to drown in the Tiber or float down the Orontes or the Volga.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Reader Polycarp
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2011, 12:49:00 PM »

Perhaps they just view the situation as trading one insane asylum for another.

I would be less than candid if I were to dispute that you say. There is an important difference though. The Orthodox Church, while in many ways dysfunctional, remains remains intact and whole delivering "the faith once delivered to the saints." I speak as a former Anglican, and now as an Orthodox Deacon in the Western Rite, that attempting to restore something that is cut twice from the Root, is an impossibility. What is good and still has life in it can be regrafted and its continuing life can come from the source, but there is no future otherwise. The old maxim that "Orthodoxy is the best religion given to the worse people" is pretty accurate. By no means does this mean that I am the "right sort of person" but God does grant many mercies and in the Orthodox Church, providing a person is patient, much good can happen. Although there are still very vocal "naysayers" about the Western Rite in the Orthodox Church recent developments have been dramatic and very encouraging.
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,418



« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2011, 02:12:44 PM »

until they try to keeping their married priests with them.

Well, only time will tell on that, and while I may or may not have doubts on that point, it's not necessarily a factor in decisions made now, but rather a gamble on the future. What is a problem now is that unless you are lucky enough to live close to one of the extant parishes, if you don't have an Anglican priest now who is willing to convert with you, you can get neither an ordinariate nor a WRO parish. Neither church is ordaining Anglican rite missionaries to start new congregations de novo. Even in church-thick central Maryland I would have to drive a long way to get to either a WRO parish (there was one in Bethesda, I don't know where they are now) or an ordinariate parish (Mount Calvary, wherever they end up). Practically my choice is limited to one of the local NO-Roman rite parishes; there's a couple of Orthodox parishes close by, but none of them are English-speaking (and at least one if not two of them is Oriental, not Eastern).
Logged
Reader Polycarp
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2011, 02:46:20 PM »



Well, only time will tell on that, and while I may or may not have doubts on that point, it's not necessarily a factor in decisions made now, but rather a gamble on the future. What is a problem now is that unless you are lucky enough to live close to one of the extant parishes, if you don't have an Anglican priest now who is willing to convert with you, you can get neither an ordinariate nor a WRO parish. Neither church is ordaining Anglican rite missionaries to start new congregations de novo. Even in church-thick central Maryland I would have to drive a long way to get to either a WRO parish (there was one in Bethesda, I don't know where they are now) or an ordinariate parish (Mount Calvary, wherever they end up). Practically my choice is limited to one of the local NO-Roman rite parishes; there's a couple of Orthodox parishes close by, but none of them are English-speaking (and at least one if not two of them is Oriental, not Eastern).

[/quote]

Being in Maryland you could try St Gregory the Great in DC, or St. Patrick in Lewistown MD. There are a couple in Virginia as well. In total between the AWRV and ROCOR there are over 40 at this point in  23 states and in Ontario Canada as well (where there are now 3). We have people who drive 100 miles to attend on Sundays. Of course it is a matter of how important all this is to a person.  Other than Montreal Canada and San Francisco  I don't think there is a major population centre in the USA that is more than a 2 hour drive from a WRO parish, mission or monastery. In Texas you could have your pick for the most part. Yes it is a gamble on the future but what is the option? Swimming the Tiber is not a gamble so much as a slow death sentence at the hands of the people who brought the "fruit" of Vatican II to the world.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,815



« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2011, 03:39:30 PM »

Well, only time will tell on that, and while I may or may not have doubts on that point, it's not necessarily a factor in decisions made now, but rather a gamble on the future. What is a problem now is that unless you are lucky enough to live close to one of the extant parishes, if you don't have an Anglican priest now who is willing to convert with you, you can get neither an ordinariate nor a WRO parish. Neither church is ordaining Anglican rite missionaries to start new congregations de novo. Even in church-thick central Maryland I would have to drive a long way to get to either a WRO parish (there was one in Bethesda, I don't know where they are now) or an ordinariate parish (Mount Calvary, wherever they end up). Practically my choice is limited to one of the local NO-Roman rite parishes; there's a couple of Orthodox parishes close by, but none of them are English-speaking (and at least one if not two of them is Oriental, not Eastern).

Being in Maryland you could try St Gregory the Great in DC,
http://www.stgregoryoc.org/

or St. Patrick in Lewistown MD.

You mean St. John the Baptist?
http://www.stjohnbaptistorthodox.org/

There are a couple in Virginia as well.
http://stpatrickorthodox.org/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
http://www.orthodoxlynchburg.org/

In total between the AWRV and ROCOR there are over 40 at this point in  23 states and in Ontario Canada as well (where there are now 3). We have people who drive 100 miles to attend on Sundays. Of course it is a matter of how important all this is to a person.
 
Not entirely: ability is a large part as well.

Other than Montreal Canada and San Francisco  I don't think there is a major population centre in the USA that is more than a 2 hour drive from a WRO parish, mission or monastery.
Chicago: I've driven 5 hours to the nearest one, Holy Incarnation in Detroit (Lincoln Park, actually).

Btw, they didn't have an Anglican priest, but a Lutheran pastor.  Though they were given the hospitality of a local Episcopalian parish until they got their own Church (there was a WRO trust set up by a closed WRO parish in Detroit which helped out).

In Texas you could have your pick for the most part.
Not quite yet, but getting there.

Yes it is a gamble on the future but what is the option? Swimming the Tiber is not a gamble so much as a slow death sentence at the hands of the people who brought the "fruit" of Vatican II to the world.
The seed of that came from the rotten fruit of Vatican I. By their fruits ye shall know them.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Reader Polycarp
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2011, 03:49:16 PM »

Sorry about that it is St. John the Baptist in Maryland. St. Patrick is in Virginia. There are two WR Churches in the Detroit area one is St. Patrick in Northview which is ROCOR and if you want something more akin to an Anglican patrimony that is the place to contact. Fr. Patrick Lowery, who for a while looked after the old Incarnation Parish, is in charge. Further north in Marion Michigan is Saint John the Wonderworker which is ROCOR WR as well but using the St. Gregory. Depending where you are coming from perhaps the Canadian WR parishes would be closer? or is you are near Wisconsin or Illinois there is a parish in Kenosha WI and Peoria IL.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,815



« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2011, 04:31:01 PM »

Sorry about that it is St. John the Baptist in Maryland. St. Patrick is in Virginia. There are two WR Churches in the Detroit area one is St. Patrick in Northview which is ROCOR and if you want something more akin to an Anglican patrimony that is the place to contact. Fr. Patrick Lowery, who for a while looked after the old Incarnation Parish, is in charge. Further north in Marion Michigan is Saint John the Wonderworker which is ROCOR WR as well but using the St. Gregory. Depending where you are coming from perhaps the Canadian WR parishes would be closer? or is you are near Wisconsin or Illinois there is a parish in Kenosha WI and Peoria IL.
There is?  Since when? Do you have info?

I'm just in this for moral support: being Arab and my sons being part Romanian, I'm solidly EO.  We don't have to orientalize everyone, though, just convert them.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
SubdeaconDavid
"...the spread of the light of Orthodoxy among the peoples of all the lands where our Church exists continues as an inseparable part of our mission": Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of ROCOR
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (ROCOR)
Posts: 504


Помилуй мя Боже, по велицей милости Твоей


WWW
« Reply #53 on: March 10, 2011, 04:43:29 PM »

There are continuing positive signs regarding Western converts to Orthodoxy from Anglican origins - and often the success is found in the so-called Eastern-rite.  Take the heartland of the Anglican Church - England.  A ROCOR parish has a fabulous new evangelical missionary website - Joy of All Who Sorrow parish at Mettingham in rural Norfolk, being served by a newly ordained priest Fr. Antony Bardsley.  

See: http://www.joyofallwhosorrow.org.uk/  There is a beautiful video of the consecration of the church by His Eminence Archbishop Mark of Germany and Great Britain to the beautiful Greek fvemale choir singing the troparion to Our Lady.

Logged

Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco
SubdeaconDavid
"...the spread of the light of Orthodoxy among the peoples of all the lands where our Church exists continues as an inseparable part of our mission": Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of ROCOR
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (ROCOR)
Posts: 504


Помилуй мя Боже, по велицей милости Твоей


WWW
« Reply #54 on: March 10, 2011, 04:45:57 PM »

Sorry about that it is St. John the Baptist in Maryland. St. Patrick is in Virginia. There are two WR Churches in the Detroit area one is St. Patrick in Northview which is ROCOR and if you want something more akin to an Anglican patrimony that is the place to contact. Fr. Patrick Lowery, who for a while looked after the old Incarnation Parish, is in charge. Further north in Marion Michigan is Saint John the Wonderworker which is ROCOR WR as well but using the St. Gregory. Depending where you are coming from perhaps the Canadian WR parishes would be closer? or is you are near Wisconsin or Illinois there is a parish in Kenosha WI and Peoria IL.

There is?  Since when? Do you have info?

I'm just in this for moral support: being Arab and my sons being part Romanian, I'm solidly EO.  We don't have to orientalize everyone, though, just convert them.

Have a look at the Mettingham ROCOR parish website to see an example of converts to "eastern" Orthodoxy thriving - building a church, living a parish life with daily services - all in English, all in the English countryside, and with a fair amount of intergration into the surrounding community. http://www.joyofallwhosorrow.org.uk/

Byzantine liturgy and rite.  English Orthodox priest. English language services (with Greek and Slavonic thrown in), multi-national congregation. There is no cultural cringe in this - it is simply Orthodoxy pure and simple. The idea that Western people cannot take to Orthodoxy is dispelled by a parish such as Mettingham.  The world has shrunk - every Orthodox book you need is in English.  Our bishops know how to serve in English. It is time to get over this East-West division and just share the one Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 04:51:26 PM by SubdeaconDavid » Logged

Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,253



« Reply #55 on: March 10, 2011, 04:48:45 PM »

Couldn't Anglicans or other Protestants that wanted to become Orthodox do so without a priest? How many times have missions formed without a priest being there all the time? Obviously it isn't desirable, but Orthodoxy is the pearl of Great Price, right? Wink I don't see why ROCOR or Antioch wouldn't be accomadating to provide a priest as often as possible. They generally have in the past for EO missions.

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,253



« Reply #56 on: March 10, 2011, 04:52:52 PM »

There are continuing positive signs regarding Western converts to Orthodoxy from Anglican origins - and often the success is found in the so-called Eastern-rite.  Take the heartland of the Anglican Church - England.  A ROCOR parish has a fabulous new evangelical missionary website - Joy of All Who Sorrow parish at Mettingham in rural Norfolk, being served by a newly ordained priest Fr. Antony Bardsley.  

See: http://www.joyofallwhosorrow.org.uk/  There is a beautiful video of the consecration of the church by His Eminence Archbishop Mark of Germany and Great Britain to the beautiful Greek fvemale choir singing the troparion to Our Lady.


Yes, yes we know about your prejudices against Western Orthodoxy. We have heard it enough. Would you mind giving some worthwhile contribution instead of being the gadfly all the time? I thought I saw you post something about Forgiveness Vespers and trying to avoid this triumphalism you have over Western Orthodoxy...?

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,256

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #57 on: March 10, 2011, 06:15:41 PM »

Have a look at the Mettingham ROCOR parish website to see an example of converts to "eastern" Orthodoxy thriving - building a church, living a parish life with daily services - all in English, all in the English countryside, and with a fair amount of intergration into the surrounding community. http://www.joyofallwhosorrow.org.uk/

Glory be to God.

Quote
Byzantine liturgy and rite.  English Orthodox priest. English language services (with Greek and Slavonic thrown in), multi-national congregation. There is no cultural cringe in this - it is simply Orthodoxy pure and simple.

Hallelujah!

Quote
The idea that Western people cannot take to Orthodoxy is dispelled by a parish such as Mettingham.

Did someone say that? What an odd idea.

Quote
The world has shrunk - every Orthodox book you need is in English.  Our bishops know how to serve in English. It is time to get over this East-West division and just share the one Orthodoxy.

Amen. Hopefully this will be accomplished through flourishing Orthodox parishes of all approved rites.

Yes, yes we know about your prejudices against Western Orthodoxy. We have heard it enough. Would you mind giving some worthwhile contribution instead of being the gadfly all the time? I thought I saw you post something about Forgiveness Vespers and trying to avoid this triumphalism you have over Western Orthodoxy...?

In Christ,
Andrew

I seem to recall something regarding "Western Rite mythology" in his "apology" and yet he seems to be the one spreading it so frequently around here. Western people cannot take to Orthodoxy? Who believes that?

Ironically, in that same "apology" he mentioned perhaps the biggest "myth" which is that the Western Rites "died" at some point in history. It leaves one wondering what in the world Western Christendom was using after the Great Schism if they up and quit using what they had been using all along...
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 06:16:56 PM by Sleeper » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,815



« Reply #58 on: March 10, 2011, 06:32:19 PM »

There are continuing positive signs regarding Western converts to Orthodoxy from Anglican origins - and often the success is found in the so-called Eastern-rite.
Not so called. It is an Eastern rite.  Unless you want to argue that London and Istanbul are the same. I've been to both. They're not.

This isn't Egyptian either

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Bridge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptomania

So if the English want to worship Eastern style, carrying much on like the Russian aristocracy speaking and acting French, they are free to do so. Just it is not necessary, nor does their doing so make the Eastern Rite Western on the basis of geography.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,815



« Reply #59 on: March 10, 2011, 06:45:04 PM »

Sorry about that it is St. John the Baptist in Maryland. St. Patrick is in Virginia. There are two WR Churches in the Detroit area one is St. Patrick in Northview which is ROCOR and if you want something more akin to an Anglican patrimony that is the place to contact. Fr. Patrick Lowery, who for a while looked after the old Incarnation Parish, is in charge. Further north in Marion Michigan is Saint John the Wonderworker which is ROCOR WR as well but using the St. Gregory. Depending where you are coming from perhaps the Canadian WR parishes would be closer? or is you are near Wisconsin or Illinois there is a parish in Kenosha WI and Peoria IL.

There is?  Since when? Do you have info?

I'm just in this for moral support: being Arab and my sons being part Romanian, I'm solidly EO.  We don't have to orientalize everyone, though, just convert them.

Have a look at the Mettingham ROCOR parish website to see an example of converts to "eastern" Orthodoxy thriving - building a church, living a parish life with daily services - all in English, all in the English countryside, and with a fair amount of intergration into the surrounding community. http://www.joyofallwhosorrow.org.uk/

Byzantine liturgy and rite.  English Orthodox priest. English language services (with Greek and Slavonic thrown in), multi-national congregation. There is no cultural cringe in this - it is simply Orthodoxy pure and simple. The idea that Western people cannot take to Orthodoxy is dispelled by a parish such as Mettingham.  The world has shrunk - every Orthodox book you need is in English.  Our bishops know how to serve in English. It is time to get over this East-West division and just share the one Orthodoxy.
Proving yet again that we have to take care of that log first before removing the mote of Latinizations from the Vatican.

Btw, the Russian usage of the rite of Constantinople may be in 62 countries, but the Vatican's Latin rite (NO or TLM) is in every country I can think of.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
SubdeaconDavid
"...the spread of the light of Orthodoxy among the peoples of all the lands where our Church exists continues as an inseparable part of our mission": Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of ROCOR
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (ROCOR)
Posts: 504


Помилуй мя Боже, по велицей милости Твоей


WWW
« Reply #60 on: May 01, 2011, 05:10:27 PM »

I refer you to the current edition of the ROCOR Australian and New Zealand Diocesn quarterly magazine, Word of the Church Слово Церкви which reprints verbatim an article by Archpriest Phillip Andrews of the UK Diocese of ROCOR:

See:    http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/disang.htm.

The article by Archpriest Andrew Phillips of ROCOR's British Diocese argues that the Western-rite runs the risk of being separated on the fringe from mainstream 'Eastern' Orthodoxy in tiny isolated pockets of modified Anglican worship, Anglo-centric phyletism
Quote
History shows us that tiny ex-Anglican groups, unintegrated into the mainstream of the Orthodox Church, are basically just more ‘Continuing Anglican Churches’
Quote
Why few disillusioned Anglicans will join the Orthodox Church

Introduction

Currently the Church of England is racked by division concerning the ordination of homosexual clergy and female bishops. There are now Anglicans who have already left or who are planning to leave the Church of England because they cannot square such ‘modernisation’ with their consciences. Some speak of ‘the end of the Church of England’. Most who leave seem to join other Protestant groups or else go to Roman Catholicism. A third option is to start a new, or else join an old, ‘Continuing Anglican Church’, of which there are several. A fourth option, the least likely, is to join one of the Orthodox Churches. Why is this fourth option by far the least popular? There are several reasons:

1.Motivation

We must wonder about the motivations of those who object to ‘woman bishops’. The doctrine of the Church of England was largely moulded by a woman, Queen Elizabeth I, and the current head of the Church of England is her namesake, Queen Elizabeth II. The wider Anglican Communion has had ‘woman-bishops’ for years. And what logic is there in the concept that you can have ‘woman-priests’, but not woman-bishops? This is like saying that you can have woman-teachers, but not woman-headteachers. You cannot help suspecting a certain misogyny and clericalism in the opposition to ‘woman-priests’ in what is, after all, a Protestant, that is, non-sacramental, denomination. The reason why female clergy are unthinkable in the Orthodox Church is not because of misogyny, but because Christ-God did not appoint women as apostles. If Anglicans were going to leave the Church of England about female clergy, they should have left when female clergy were first introduced. However, if they wished to join the Orthodox Church because of this issue, then they needed a positive reason to join it, not a negative reason to leave somewhere else.

Again, there is much lack of logic with the question of homosexual clergy. They have existed for generations in the Church of England and relatively openly. A small section of senior clergy of the C of E long ago gained notoriety for sodomy and pedophilia in public schools. As one member of the C of E said to me a few years ago: ‘I can’t see anything wrong with it, as long as they are discreet’. In other words, everything is fine as long as you are hypocritical. Orthodox look for honesty, logic and consistency in the motivation of those who say that they wish to join the Orthodox Church. How otherwise will former Anglicans reach the next stage, when, having formally joined the Church, they actually have to become Orthodox, which can be a very different story.

2.The Tradition, the Liturgy and the Sense of the Sacred

Few Anglicans will join the Orthodox Church because our liturgical heritage is so radically different – the Orthodox Church is nearly 2,000 years old, the Church of England not yet 500 years old. Therefore, in the latter, standing up and singing Victorian or modern songs together and sitting down and listening to long speeches about current events (sermons) is very important. In the Orthodox Church we come to church to pray, following rites which have scarcely changed since apostolic times, as for example is witnessed to by baptism by immersion, confirmation given with baptism, communion in both kinds, communion given to babies, confession, our frequent use of the sign of the cross (and in its original form), the use of candles, incense, a screen, a veil over the altar doors and a seven-branched candlestick. For the same reason of apostolicity, we stand for worship, both our creed and calendar, confirmed in the fourth century, are zealously adhered to and we do not use the novelty of organs or other musical instruments.

Orthodox worship therefore comes as a culture shock to those who come from forms of worship which date back only few generations or at best, a few centuries. Moreover, Anglican worship, when not wholly moulded by modern secularism, is defined by its revolt against Roman Catholicism. And the latter, despite many abuses and deformations, is actually older than that of the Church of England and still has some liturgical sense - though at present its sense of the sacred, of holiness, is often utterly deficient. To be honest, it is clear that Anglicans have simply lost the sense of the Tradition (the inspirations of the Holy Spirit over nearly 2,000 years) and therefore they only have recent human conventions and customs to mould their worship. And in losing the Tradition, Anglicans have also lost the sacraments and sacramental sense. This can be the only explanation for their introduction of female clergy, who, in their case, are social workers – and some of them surely very good social workers - but not priests.

3.The Ascetic Sense

The Orthodox Church is the only original Church, therefore it is an ascetic Church, as it was in the times of St John the Baptist, of the apostles in Jerusalem, as it was in the catacombs, as it was in the deserts of Egypt, as it still is today. Our guardians are in monasticism, which has nothing to do with the secular criteria of the Church of England. The fact that we stand for worship is for example an almost impossible barrier for most Anglicans. The fact that we are called on to fast for half the year is another impossible barrier for most. For example, our whole ethos of preparation for communion, fasting, reading of prayers and confession, is alien to a group in which people are used to having a fried breakfast and then an hour or so later taking communion. It is clear to Orthodox (as also to many Anglicans) that our understanding of communion is totally different. For them it is a mere memorial with bread and wine, for us it is the burning presence of the Body and Blood of Christ.

Prayer, fasting, standing, confession – all these practices are alien to the Church of England and yet essential to the Gospel and therefore to Orthodoxy. Lifelong Orthodox actually believe in the Holy Trinity, the Incarnation and Divinity of Christ, the Resurrection, the Ever-Virginity of the Mother of God, the Cross, Providence, holiness (the Holy Spirit acting in the material world), the saints, the angels, relics, icons and miracles. Anglicans have produced no saints over nearly 500 years (though a very few do speak of St Charles I) and most of them tell me that they are proud of this and that they do not believe in saints. True, we Orthodox are not always very devout in our Orthodoxy and not very punctual at our services, but we would not think of abolishing any of the beliefs of the Church or the practices of prayer, fasting, standing and confession. The Church is the Church, regardless of our human weaknesses. We do not adapt the Church to the world (secularism), as Henry VIII did and as Archbishop Rowan Williams is in fact allowing through weakness. In Orthodoxy, the world adapts to the Church, not the other way round.

4.Becoming Orthodox

Some former Anglicans have in the past joined the Orthodox Church. Many have integrated the Faith and, after joining, have actually become Orthodox. Others, sad to say, having joined the Orthodox Church for negative reasons (disillusionment with the C of E) or for purely academic reasons and not for positive reasons (the realisation that without Orthodoxy their souls will die), and so not become Orthodox. As a result they have tended to split off from the mainstream, closing themselves off in little groups, where they practise what is in fact an approximate if very confused Orthodox rite with Anglican practices, a ‘make it up as you go along’ attitude. This means intercommunion, no confession, no fasting, sitting down during the services (indeed, virtually no services beyond the eucharistic liturgy), the use of Anglican hymns, the use of the Anglican calendar, no iconostasis, parish politics, and ‘protesting’ (= Protestant) attitudes towards Orthodox bishops and resulting divisions and boycotts of their respective cathedrals and bishops.

Another problem here is the refusal by many ex-Anglicans to accept that Orthodoxy is international. Unfortunately, Anglicans who are used to ‘uninational’ parishes find it very difficult to accept the multinational parishes, which are the reality of real Orthodoxy. Without the presence of other Orthodox nationalities, they will not learn Orthodoxy, they will not actually become Orthodox. The presence of ‘foreigners’ among them should be greeted by them and they should accommodate them, accepting parts of the service in ‘foreign’ languages (xenophobes must realise that every ‘foreign’ language is someone else’s native language). The nationalist exclusivity of many ex-Anglicans, to be frank, their phyletism or nationalism, and refusal to come to terms with the sometimes very, very dark national history of England/Britain (1), is not acceptable in the multinational Orthodox world. In our parish we have eighteen nationalities, from Russian to Greek, Romanian to Syrian, Australian to Latvian, French to Bulgarian – this is reality. History shows us that tiny ex-Anglican groups, unintegrated into the mainstream of the Orthodox Church, are basically just more ‘Continuing Anglican Churches’ and are not taken seriously by the rest of the Orthodox Church.

Conclusion

The chances are that most Anglicans will remain in the Church of England, though some will leave for Roman Catholicism and some for various sub-Anglican groups, perhaps headed by ‘African Anglicans’. It is not to be expected that many will wish to join the Orthodox Church – for the four reasons expressed above. Of course, all are welcome to come and see, as is everyone, whatever their background in this country, whether they belong to the 2% who are practising Anglicans or the 98% who are not. Some, as we know, not only do join our Church, but also find their spiritual home with us and in due course become Orthodox. If you can accept us, as we are, welcome! But please do not come with your own agenda or else you will also be disillusioned.

St Edith of Wilton
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 05:10:51 PM by SubdeaconDavid » Logged

Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,960


black metal cat


« Reply #61 on: May 01, 2011, 05:15:04 PM »

Not to thwart a possible discussion, if people want to talk about this, but is this the same article that was discussed here?

Topics merged together - Arimethea
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 03:11:47 PM by arimethea » Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
SubdeaconDavid
"...the spread of the light of Orthodoxy among the peoples of all the lands where our Church exists continues as an inseparable part of our mission": Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of ROCOR
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (ROCOR)
Posts: 504


Помилуй мя Боже, по велицей милости Твоей


WWW
« Reply #62 on: May 01, 2011, 05:20:02 PM »

Not to thwart a possible discussion, if people want to talk about this, but is this the same article that was discussed here?
My main interest was the publication of this article in the Australian diocesan magazine and the ramifications of this.
Logged

Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,256

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #63 on: May 01, 2011, 05:26:11 PM »

Other than reason a portion of reason #4, I'm scratching my head as to what this has to do with the Western Rite?
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,815



« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2011, 05:36:15 PM »

Christ is risen!

I could swear I've dealt with this rather smug and haughty piece before.

IIRC I could swear that I critiqued, if not criticized this article here somewhere, full of unfounded triumphalism as it is.
I thought so.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 05:38:47 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,256

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2011, 05:45:05 PM »

 Cheesy  Cheesy  Cheesy
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #66 on: May 01, 2011, 05:58:31 PM »

A model example of convertitis.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,960


black metal cat


« Reply #67 on: May 01, 2011, 06:06:16 PM »

My main interest was the publication of this article in the Australian diocesan magazine and the ramifications of this.

Ok, fair enough Smiley
Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.227 seconds with 95 queries.