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Author Topic: Why Few Disillusioned Anglicans Will Join Orthodoxy  (Read 9334 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 24, 2011, 03:10:24 AM »

Why Few Disillusioned Anglicans Will Join Orthodoxy

http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2010/12/06/why-few-disillusioned-anglicans-will-join-the-orthodox-church/#axzz1EqwDbL75

I thought this would be appropriate where we are discussing Anglican conversion to Western Rite Orthodoxy.   It also occurs to me that the stories of conversion from Fr Michael (Wood) and Sister Margaret (Smythe) would be a wonderful counterbalace to this article.
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« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2011, 04:36:01 AM »

I was raised Episcopalian, I find it hard to believe the author has any knowledge about Anglicanism.
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« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2011, 06:16:59 AM »

Why Few Disillusioned Anglicans Will Join Orthodoxy

http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2010/12/06/why-few-disillusioned-anglicans-will-join-the-orthodox-church/#axzz1EqwDbL75

I thought this would be appropriate where we are discussing Anglican conversion to Western Rite Orthodoxy.   It also occurs to me that the stories of conversion from Fr Michael (Wood) and Sister Margaret (Smythe) would be a wonderful counterbalace to this article.

 With the prayers and eyes of many in Orthodoxy on the tonsuring this Sunday of the Columban WR rule nun, Margaret, and the Abbott of St. Petroc Monastery and his Columban rule, it would indeed be wonderful to hear how Sister Margaret has made the pilgrimage to the Russian Orthodox Church (Paris jurisdiction EP) and from thence to ROCOR's Western-rite.

This is a monumental moment in Western-rite Orthodox history.  It is nothing less than the historic revival of Orthodox Columban monasticism -  the FIRST Columban Order monastics since  the Great Schism. Sister Margaret and her Father Abbott Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) are making history in the United Kingdom - hence my hope that the event will be filmed for the faithful to enjoy and marvel at worldwide.

It would also be a blessing to have the story of the conversion of Abbott Michael (Mansbridge-Wood).  It is a great and wonderful thing to embrace Orthodoxy, and no doubt a very long journey from the Church of England in Australia, to  the  Archdeaconry of Lambeth in the Anglican Rite Jurisdiction of the Americas (ARJA) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_Rite_Jurisdiction_of_the_Americas  to today about to revive the Columban Order and heading a worldwide Paruchia of Western-rite missions, from the Netherlands to Singapore, from the bottom of Australia to the Philippines and of course in the United Kingdom.

Perhaps Columban Order Orthodox Western-rite nuns and monkswill again be seen in full traditional Western habits on the hallowed streets of Canterbury, seat of St. Augustine of Canterbury if not in the beautiful Canterbury Cathedral where prayer has been offered continually since St. Augustine built the Cathedral in 597AD. May the Lord hasten the return of the English people in their thousands to Orthodoxy.

 
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« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2011, 09:24:43 AM »

Most western nations have not persecuted the church; perhaps the church needs to witness the Gospel to them.
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« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2011, 09:58:23 AM »

I was raised Episcopalian, I find it hard to believe the author has any knowledge about Anglicanism.

I thought the same thing when I read this a while back. The entire article is incredulous and filled with many fallacies and personal assumptions.
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« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2011, 11:13:05 AM »

Quote
Perhaps Columban Order Orthodox Western-rite nuns and monkswill again be seen in full traditional Western habits on the hallowed streets of Canterbury, seat of St. Augustine of Canterbury if not in the beautiful Canterbury Cathedral where prayer has been offered continually since St. Augustine built the Cathedral in 597AD. May the Lord hasten the return of the English people in their thousands to Orthodoxy.

I do hate repeating myself but it is not an order. Orthodox monastics do not have orders. As for habits, well, I don't have a bevvy of lay sisters to do my laundering, starching and ironing of miles of white linen for me, so expect something much simpler than the Sound of Music look.

In Christ,
Margaret
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« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2011, 11:28:26 AM »

I was raised Episcopalian, I find it hard to believe the author has any knowledge about Anglicanism.

Yep. Unlike a fair number of Orthodox clergy in England nowadays I don't think Fr Andrew was ever Anglican. He seems to have converted to Orthodoxy from unbelief and then married an Orthodox woman.

Best wishes,
Margaret
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« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2011, 11:46:10 AM »

IIRC I could swear that I critiqued, if not criticized this article here somewhere, full of unfounded triumphalism as it is.
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« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2011, 11:47:32 AM »

My sense is that the social problems in the UK will eventually lead to an opportunity for native Orthodoxy to spread there.  Whether it will become the majority religion, I sincerely doubt it.

However, I think it has the potential to match the actual percentages of practicing Russian Orthodox in Russia and Greek Orthodox in Greece, roughly 10% of the population averaging out the two. 

The same would be a good target here in the US.  Right now we are at something like 1/3 of 1%.

But, seriously, the Anglicans as a group have to make a vast number of mental and spiritual changes in order to convert, which I'm not entirely certain can be done as a group.  It seems to me that counting on mass exoduses is quite unreasonable.  Orthodoxy does seem to do well with individual conversions, and we are now just entering a stage where this is possible without converts having to learn a different language.
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« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2011, 12:23:24 PM »

C.S. Lewis seems to be highly regarded in many Orthodox circles is it possible that the faith could be articulated in English speaking areas (& others perhaps?) in a similar fashion as he articulated Christianity in basic terms? Personally I feel like part of a multitude examples of the fallout effect of an eventual "dead on arrival" status that awaits  much of the diaspora contingent since even my father was cradle Orthodox & knew nothing about it even though he attended divine liturgies (in Arabic) until high school age. Or maybe I should just shut my trap.
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« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2011, 01:11:16 PM »

Or maybe I should just shut my trap.

Please don't.  I think you brought up some excellent points in your post.
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« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2011, 01:19:37 PM »

That article was so ridiculous that I had to stop reading it halfway through.
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« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2011, 01:23:23 PM »

Or maybe I should just shut my trap.

Please don't.  I think you brought up some excellent points in your post.
Well maybe I need to calm down also; thanks. Please do not let me pose any discouragement in your seeking the Orthodox faith it is the way, the truth & the fullness. I guess I have developed a soft spot for high Anglicanism; I attended Evensong at St. David's Cathedral in Wales & in Exeter cathedral in England (St. David of Wales, my other 1/2, is my patron saint & perhaps I should ask for more of his prayers).
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« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2011, 01:49:57 PM »

Why Few Disillusioned Anglicans Will Join Orthodoxy

http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2010/12/06/why-few-disillusioned-anglicans-will-join-the-orthodox-church/#axzz1EqwDbL75

I thought this would be appropriate where we are discussing Anglican conversion to Western Rite Orthodoxy.   It also occurs to me that the stories of conversion from Fr Michael (Wood) and Sister Margaret (Smythe) would be a wonderful counterbalace to this article.

My Priest and all his family ( which includes our choir director) were Anglican (Episcopal). My wife as well.

I knew a Buddhist who converted to Anglican because if was liberal enough to match his world view and not hassle him too much about being gay.

He bought the line that they are Apostolic, which was important to him even though it doesn't really hold water.
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« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2011, 02:27:10 PM »

I was raised Episcopalian, I find it hard to believe the author has any knowledge about Anglicanism.

I thought the same thing when I read this a while back. The entire article is incredulous and filled with many fallacies and personal assumptions.

One of which being:

"Of course, all are welcome to come and see, as is everyone, whatever their background in this country, whether they belong to the 2% who are practising Anglicans or the 98% who are not."

Hey buddy, the Orthodox don't have the best record for church attendance either, so I wouldn't be casting stones!
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« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2011, 02:59:24 PM »

Quote
Perhaps Columban Order Orthodox Western-rite nuns and monkswill again be seen in full traditional Western habits on the hallowed streets of Canterbury, seat of St. Augustine of Canterbury if not in the beautiful Canterbury Cathedral where prayer has been offered continually since St. Augustine built the Cathedral in 597AD. May the Lord hasten the return of the English people in their thousands to Orthodoxy.

I do hate repeating myself but it is not an order. Orthodox monastics do not have orders. As for habits, well, I don't have a bevvy of lay sisters to do my laundering, starching and ironing of miles of white linen for me, so expect something much simpler than the Sound of Music look.

In Christ,
Margaret
OK OK Columban Rule and Orthodox Western-rite do have orders - the monks of ROCOR's Christ the Savior Monastery in Canada are Benedictine - O.S.B. and their professed monastics use the title "Dom" or "Dominus" as has been used in the Benedictine Order since the time of St. Benedict, father of Western monasticism.
 See http://christminster.org/western-orthodoxy/

The Benedictine nun of St. Benet House, the convent adjacent to Christ the Savior Benedictine WR monastery is at present solitary and has a very nice habit with a white wimple which I would not call "sound of Music", just traditional Western.  http://christminster.org/about/photos/ There is also a photo of Sister Sophia in your own paruchia website in a very nice banner: http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/christminster-monastery/

Is the Columban rule also being followed by your Abbott and any other monastics of the Petroc paruchia?  May their prayers and the prayers of the Orthodox faithful be with you in this last 48 hours before you make your vows.
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« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2011, 03:34:28 PM »

Quote
OK OK Columban Rule and Orthodox Western-rite do have orders - the monks of ROCOR's Christ the Savior Monastery in Canada are Benedictine - O.S.B. and their professed monastics use the title "Dom" or "Dominus" as has been used in the Benedictine Order since the time of St. Benedict, father of Western monasticism.
 See http://christminster.org/western-orthodoxy/

Yes, in my anxiety to reiterate that I am not joining any Columban Order I am sorry to say I forgot about the Benedictines of Christminster.

Quote
The Benedictine nun of St. Benet House, the convent adjacent to Christ the Savior Benedictine WR monastery is at present solitary and has a very nice habit with a white wimple which I would not call "sound of Music", just traditional Western.  http://christminster.org/about/photos/ There is also a photo of Sister Sophia in your own paruchia website in a very nice banner: http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/christminster-monastery/

The chances of me wearing anything like that are quite remote.

Quote
Is the Columban rule also being followed by your Abbott and any other monastics of the Petroc paruchia?  May their prayers and the prayers of the Orthodox faithful be with you in this last 48 hours before you make your vows.

The rule of St Columba seems to me very generalised and very simple, beautiful in its simplicity, and little more than umpteen Christians I know strive for in their lives without being monastics. I am at a complete loss to see why Fr Michael's giving it to me has produced so much interest.
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« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2011, 06:19:31 PM »

Quote
OK OK Columban Rule and Orthodox Western-rite do have orders - the monks of ROCOR's Christ the Savior Monastery in Canada are Benedictine - O.S.B. and their professed monastics use the title "Dom" or "Dominus" as has been used in the Benedictine Order since the time of St. Benedict, father of Western monasticism.
 See http://christminster.org/western-orthodoxy/

Yes, in my anxiety to reiterate that I am not joining any Columban Order I am sorry to say I forgot about the Benedictines of Christminster.

Quote
The Benedictine nun of St. Benet House, the convent adjacent to Christ the Savior Benedictine WR monastery is at present solitary and has a very nice habit with a white wimple which I would not call "sound of Music", just traditional Western.  http://christminster.org/about/photos/ There is also a photo of Sister Sophia in your own paruchia website in a very nice banner: http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/christminster-monastery/

The chances of me wearing anything like that are quite remote.

Quote
Is the Columban rule also being followed by your Abbott and any other monastics of the Petroc paruchia?  May their prayers and the prayers of the Orthodox faithful be with you in this last 48 hours before you make your vows.

The rule of St Columba seems to me very generalised and very simple, beautiful in its simplicity, and little more than umpteen Christians I know strive for in their lives without being monastics. I am at a complete loss to see why Fr Michael's giving it to me has produced so much interest.
  Because what Abbott Michael is doing in reviving Orthodox monastic life under the Columban rule is historic and is reviving a monastic rule/order lost to Orthodoxy for a thousand years
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« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2011, 07:23:45 PM »

That article was so ridiculous that I had to stop reading it halfway through.
Same.

According to the author, one would essentially have to have already been Orthodox in order to convert to Orthodoxy.

Where did the poster above get the 10% practicing in Russia figure? It seems higher to me here...
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« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2011, 07:54:06 PM »

Quote
Perhaps Columban Order Orthodox Western-rite nuns and monkswill again be seen in full traditional Western habits on the hallowed streets of Canterbury, seat of St. Augustine of Canterbury if not in the beautiful Canterbury Cathedral where prayer has been offered continually since St. Augustine built the Cathedral in 597AD. May the Lord hasten the return of the English people in their thousands to Orthodoxy.

I do hate repeating myself but it is not an order. Orthodox monastics do not have orders.
Margaret

Dear Sister Margaret,

I have a message from Fr Michael Wood, probably 20 days ago ,and he is adamant that Fr Joshua Anna and the monastery in New Mexico is not Benedictine but Columbian [sic].
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« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2011, 08:00:12 PM »

Here is a lower figure...

http://www.ocanews.org/news/Wikileaks12.10.10.html

Metropolitan Hilarion is quoted as saying only 5% of Russians regularly attend church. 

The ROC has roughly 30,000 parishes to serve 100,000,000 people, meaning that each parish has, on average, 3,000 communicants.  This is highly unlikely from a logistical standpoint. There are less that 29,000 priests, meaning that the average priest-to-communicant ratio is even higher and thus making it even more unlikely that Metropolitan Hilarion's number are far off.

Here's some statistics for the Church of Greece...

http://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches/regions/europe/greece/church-of-greece.html

The Church of Greece has roughly 7,700 parishes for 10,000,000 Greeks, putting about 1,200-1,300 people in each parish.  Again, an improbably high ratio.  However, if you take 1,200 and reduce it to 10%, you get the average capacity and attendance of the typical parish church (averaging out the cathedrals and chapels).

Some may accuse my number of 10% as being overly generous.


That article was so ridiculous that I had to stop reading it halfway through.
Same.

According to the author, one would essentially have to have already been Orthodox in order to convert to Orthodoxy.

Where did the poster above get the 10% practicing in Russia figure? It seems higher to me here...
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« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2011, 08:13:01 PM »


Is the Columban rule also being followed by your Abbott and any other monastics of the Petroc paruchia? 


It seems that this belief that Hieromonk Michael (Wood) (Mansbridge-Wood) is an Abbot is a fallacy which is gaining some traction and it is repeated multiple times on his Website  http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/

A senior priest of the Western Rite enquired of Fr Michael's bishop ands received a reply, 12 days ago: "Fr. Michael Wood is not an abbot -- only a priestmonk."

Many of us were confused for a while because of the website and began to use the term "Abbot."  However, the website is unreliable and should not be taken too seriously.
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« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2011, 08:43:50 PM »

Quote
Perhaps Columban Order Orthodox Western-rite nuns and monkswill again be seen in full traditional Western habits on the hallowed streets of Canterbury, seat of St. Augustine of Canterbury if not in the beautiful Canterbury Cathedral where prayer has been offered continually since St. Augustine built the Cathedral in 597AD. May the Lord hasten the return of the English people in their thousands to Orthodoxy.

I do hate repeating myself but it is not an order. Orthodox monastics do not have orders.
Margaret

Dear Sister Margaret,

I have a message from Fr Michael Wood, probably 20 days ago ,and he is adamant that Fr Joshua Anna and the monastery in New Mexico is not Benedictine but Columbian [sic].

Dear Father Ambrose,

A Rule and an Order are not the same thing.
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« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2011, 08:52:01 PM »


Is the Columban rule also being followed by your Abbott and any other monastics of the Petroc paruchia? 


It seems that this belief that Hieromonk Michael (Wood) (Mansbridge-Wood) is an Abbot is a fallacy which is gaining some traction and it is repeated multiple times on his Website  http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/

A senior priest of the Western Rite enquired of Fr Michael's bishop ands received a reply, 12 days ago: "Fr. Michael Wood is not an abbot -- only a priestmonk."

Many of us were confused for a while because of the website and began to use the term "Abbot."  However, the website is unreliable and should not be taken too seriously.

I am sure you were not confused for a moment, Father, and I'm rather surprised at you recycling a topic so soon. Didn't we discuss this around ten days ago? http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33774.msg533791.html#msg533791 - message 35.

Margaret
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« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2011, 09:02:47 PM »


Is the Columban rule also being followed by your Abbott and any other monastics of the Petroc paruchia? 


It seems that this belief that Hieromonk Michael (Wood) (Mansbridge-Wood) is an Abbot is a fallacy which is gaining some traction and it is repeated multiple times on his Website  http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/

A senior priest of the Western Rite enquired of Fr Michael's bishop ands received a reply, 12 days ago: "Fr. Michael Wood is not an abbot -- only a priestmonk."

Many of us were confused for a while because of the website and began to use the term "Abbot."  However, the website is unreliable and should not be taken too seriously.

I am sure you were not confused for a moment, Father, and I'm rather surprised at you recycling a topic so soon. Didn't we discuss this around ten days ago? http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33774.msg533791.html#msg533791 - message 35.

Margaret

Unfortunately the claim to abbacy goes on being propagated on the pages of the website

I have decided to promote myself from Hieromonk to Abbot  ~~  Abbot Ambrose of Shatalova Pustyn (the name the Russian boys have carved on my cottage!)  What am I talking about?  Early dementia?  I am already a Protosyngellos and outrank an Abbot !!  laugh
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« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2011, 09:27:15 PM »


Is the Columban rule also being followed by your Abbott and any other monastics of the Petroc paruchia? 


It seems that this belief that Hieromonk Michael (Wood) (Mansbridge-Wood) is an Abbot is a fallacy which is gaining some traction and it is repeated multiple times on his Website  http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/

A senior priest of the Western Rite enquired of Fr Michael's bishop ands received a reply, 12 days ago: "Fr. Michael Wood is not an abbot -- only a priestmonk."

Many of us were confused for a while because of the website and began to use the term "Abbot."  However, the website is unreliable and should not be taken too seriously.

I am sure you were not confused for a moment,


And that makes it all the stranger that the website and its webmaster are so confused and presenting false information about this claimed abbacy!

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/

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« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2011, 09:41:38 PM »

Fr. Ambrose, what do you hope to gain with all this prodding and nitpicking?
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« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2011, 09:51:17 PM »

Fr. Ambrose, what do you hope to gain with all this prodding and nitpicking?

The truth.  The removal of the false claim from the website.  And above all, protection for the integrity of my beloved Russian Church Abroad. 

Anglicans are great sticklers for honesty and if it be known that our man in charge of converting them in the UK is playing fast and loose with the truth and claiming a rank which he does not hold it will spell the end of the Metropolitan's hopes for the Western Rite missionary effort in the UK. 
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« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2011, 11:19:12 PM »

I posted this elsewhere earlier. It is easy to rectify any issue as to Fr. Michael (Wood) being an Abbot.

"As I was scrolling through the various websites that Fr. Michael (Wood) has spawned, this news item he reported from last year came up.

"NEW ABBOT
Wednesday 10th March 2010: His Eminence, Metropolitan Hilarion, Primate of ROCOR has issued a proclamation, naming Fr. David (Pierce) of Holyrood Hermitage as Abbot of the Monastery of the Holy Dormition of Our Lady of Mount Royal. The proclamation names Abbot Augustine (Whitfield) as the Abbot Emeritus. Abbot Augustine remains in hospital under ongoing care. Mount Royal was originally received into Orthodoxy in 1962 by Bishop Dositheus."

Could Fr. Michael please share with us the proclamation that, like the one issued for Fr. David (Pierce), elevated him to the rank of Abbot?

This simple piece of information will settle all the unhappy controversy on the subject."
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« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2011, 03:07:39 PM »

Quote
Perhaps Columban Order Orthodox Western-rite nuns and monkswill again be seen in full traditional Western habits on the hallowed streets of Canterbury, seat of St. Augustine of Canterbury if not in the beautiful Canterbury Cathedral where prayer has been offered continually since St. Augustine built the Cathedral in 597AD. May the Lord hasten the return of the English people in their thousands to Orthodoxy.

I do hate repeating myself but it is not an order. Orthodox monastics do not have orders.
Margaret

Dear Sister Margaret,

I have a message from Fr Michael Wood, probably 20 days ago ,and he is adamant that Fr Joshua Anna and the monastery in New Mexico is not Benedictine but Columbian [sic].

Dear Father Ambrose,

A Rule and an Order are not the same thing.
  I fail to see the problem for Western-rite Orthodox to follow Western tradition and call an Order an Order.  That is Western tradition.  Granted it was different i n the Eastern Church but the Order of St. Benedict as a distinct and named Order in Western Orthodoxy precedes the Great Schism by a long time.  So it is clear that there was a Western Benedictine Order in the Orthodox Church, which I imagine is why the Russian Church Abroad has a separate Western-rite Order of St. Benedict (O.S.B.) in Canada.  There is no need for Western-rite Orthodox to copy Eastern Orthodox custom in this - just as you have your own mass, your own offices, your own ecclesiastical structure (in ROCOR) I think it much better for you to follow Western monastic tradition and accept that following the Rule of St. Columbanus makes you a Columban Order nun. 

If as Fr. Ambrose is correct in saying that Abbott Michael (Mansbridge-Wood/Wood) has said that Prior Joshua (Anna) is Columban, then that is a reason for doubly rejoicing, as the Columban "Order" in your WR has male and female monastics.
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« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2011, 03:25:23 PM »

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Perhaps Columban Order Orthodox Western-rite nuns and monkswill again be seen in full traditional Western habits on the hallowed streets of Canterbury, seat of St. Augustine of Canterbury if not in the beautiful Canterbury Cathedral where prayer has been offered continually since St. Augustine built the Cathedral in 597AD. May the Lord hasten the return of the English people in their thousands to Orthodoxy.

I do hate repeating myself but it is not an order. Orthodox monastics do not have orders.
Margaret

Dear Sister Margaret,

I have a message from Fr Michael Wood, probably 20 days ago ,and he is adamant that Fr Joshua Anna and the monastery in New Mexico is not Benedictine but Columbian [sic].
Are you talking about the Monastary in Albuquerque?
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« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2011, 03:29:19 PM »

I posted this elsewhere earlier. It is easy to rectify any issue as to Fr. Michael (Wood) being an Abbot.

"As I was scrolling through the various websites that Fr. Michael (Wood) has spawned, this news item he reported from last year came up.

"NEW ABBOT
Wednesday 10th March 2010: His Eminence, Metropolitan Hilarion, Primate of ROCOR has issued a proclamation, naming Fr. David (Pierce) of Holyrood Hermitage as Abbot of the Monastery of the Holy Dormition of Our Lady of Mount Royal. The proclamation names Abbot Augustine (Whitfield) as the Abbot Emeritus. Abbot Augustine remains in hospital under ongoing care. Mount Royal was originally received into Orthodoxy in 1962 by Bishop Dositheus."

Could Fr. Michael please share with us the proclamation that, like the one issued for Fr. David (Pierce), elevated him to the rank of Abbot?

This simple piece of information will settle all the unhappy controversy on the subject."

Perhaps the missionary efforts of the Petroc Paruchia has got ahead of the publication of the Ukaze appointing Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood/Wood) to the Abbatial rank, a matter which could be easily remedied as Reader Polycarp suggests.  One wonders whether the abbatial rank within ROCOR includes the usual Western right to wear a mitre and carry a crozier, normally the marks of the dignity of an Abbott.  

Now that the St. Petroc Paruchia appears to have revived the Columban rule or Order, with Fr. Michael (Mansbridge-Wood/Wood) as it's head, I see no problem with the Order having an abbott as it's head.  Perhaps Father Abbott Michael will be able to join his prior in New Mexico and we will thus see the development of a real monastery attracting novices and vocations.  I read on Facebook that there is a Greek reader very keen to commence monastic life in the Petrochian New Mexico monastery. The St. Petroc Monastery system appears to be based on single figure monastic communities, hence the semi-eremitic designation of St. Petroc.http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/st-petroc-monastery/

  It would be wonderful to see those single monastics drawn together into a real community in this  Petrochian New Mexico Columban monastery.

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« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2011, 08:22:58 PM »

Quote
Perhaps Columban Order Orthodox Western-rite nuns and monkswill again be seen in full traditional Western habits on the hallowed streets of Canterbury, seat of St. Augustine of Canterbury if not in the beautiful Canterbury Cathedral where prayer has been offered continually since St. Augustine built the Cathedral in 597AD. May the Lord hasten the return of the English people in their thousands to Orthodoxy.

I do hate repeating myself but it is not an order. Orthodox monastics do not have orders.
Margaret

Dear Sister Margaret,

I have a message from Fr Michael Wood, probably 20 days ago ,and he is adamant that Fr Joshua Anna and the monastery in New Mexico is not Benedictine but Columbian [sic].
Are you talking about the Monastary in Albuquerque?

Listed at

http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Groups.html

New Mexico
Monastery of St. George
2521 N. Main St., Unit 1, #198
Las Cruces, New Mexico 88001  USA
575 636 0366
Fr. Hieromonk Joshua (Anna),
Subdeacon Vladimir
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« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2011, 03:14:04 AM »

Order as a noun is a group of people united in a formal manner. Although in a official sense there is not in the structure of Orthodoxy an "Order of St. Benedict" in reality it exists. The order though is defined by the Rule and the Rule requires a form of collegiality. Collegiality requires respect. There is nothing subversive about this. In recognition of this there have been several monks appointed in the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad as Abbots and with that dignity they are able to exercise certain prerogatives that a "Superior" (such as Fr. Michael) cannot do.

I think it is picky to argue the point whether Orthodoxy has Orders or not. Historically it had but if one wants to be reduce the argument to its essential point there is definitely a Benedictine Rule and there are Abbots that are appointed to facilitate "order" as a verb through the authority granted them.

Although the "Rule" of St. Columba has a list of maxims and directions it is not a "rule" in a comprehensive form and has no clear provision for order or collegiality and most importantly no long standing tradition. While in Orthodoxy there was about a 650 year hiatus in Benedictine monasticism from about 1260-1300 on Mr. Athos to its reappearance in the mid 1900's nevertheless monks in community following the Benedictine Rule (in its various forms and iterations) not only survived the Schism for about 200 years plus a bit but was the order from which many an Orthodox Pope in Rome was drawn.  The Western Rite, as as has been handed down to us, is deeply Benedictine in ethos and while there is no restriction, nor should there be, as to the use of other rules the fact is that anything else in the modern context is an exercise in historical reconstruction. That may be a good thing and I wish people well but the fact of the matter is that the Benedictine Rule, and its centering on a community rather than the charism of an individual, is more in keeping with Orthodoxy than other forms that rely on the personality of an individual.
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« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2011, 01:08:50 PM »

Very interesting post, Reader Polycarp.
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« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2011, 08:31:33 PM »

I think it is picky to argue the point whether Orthodoxy has Orders or not....

Well, here's the deal, I have not been admitted to an Order but if you want to talk about some Order of Columcille then feel free, just don't associate me with it.

Margaret
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« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2011, 09:31:12 PM »

I don't think there is any particular importance to what is an Order or not. The fact that people regard something as an "Order" should be reason enough to call it such. Essentially following a Rule may or may not make a person a part of an Order but to be a part of an Order a person needs to follow a Rule. The Benedictine Order is not the same as the various Roman Catholic Orders in that it is not rules by a "Superior" but having a system of "Independent houses" which means that each Abby is autonomous. It is precisely because of this the Benedictine form of Monasticism has fit so well into the Orthodox ethos. When in the other Orders appeared in the West that had a number of houses which were ruled by a "Superior" the system demanded a greater authority yet, that being the Pope. Most definitely a system that has a Superior and subservient monastic houses would approximate an Order but how would that system derive its authority? The Benedictine Rule provides for the selection of an Abbot but given the relative weakness of Western Monastic structure today that authority is handed down, rather than simply being confirmed, by the Bishops. Essentially there may be various "monastic rules" but a rule can create a problem or it can facilitate sanctity. The genius of the Benedictine Rule, strictly applied, is that there is no reliance on a particular person and his or hers charism.  A system that has a Superior over dependent monastic houses is an altogether system and in my opinion not as good of a fit with Orthodoxy as the Benedictine model.
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« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2011, 09:33:49 PM »

I should at the end said "altogether DIFFERENT system".
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« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2011, 03:20:42 AM »

Quote
Authority structure

A Religious Order is characterized by an authority structure where a superior general has jurisdiction over the order's dependent communities. An exception is the Order of St Benedict which is not a religious order in this technical sense, because it has a system of "independent houses", meaning that each abbey is autonomous. However, the Constitutions governing the order's global "independent houses" were approved by the pope. Likewise, according to rank and authority, the abbot primate's "position with regard to the other abbots [throughout the world] is to be understood rather from the analogy of a primate in a hierarchy than from that of the general of an order like the Dominicans and Jesuits."

As for the rule of St Columbanus...we shall see if it will last because many eventually became benedictine:

Quote
In 628, when Saint Bertulf made a pilgrimage to Rome, Pope Honorius I exempted Bobbio from episcopal jurisdiction, thus making the abbey immediately subject to the Holy See. Under the next abbot, Bobolen, the Rule of St. Benedict was introduced. At first its observance was optional, but in the course of time it superseded the harsher Rule of St. Columbanus, and Bobbio joined the Congregation of Monte Cassino. In 643, at the request of Rotharis and Queen Gundelberga, Pope Theodore I granted to the Abbot of Bobbio the use of the mitre and other pontificals.

Probably your materials for some of St Columbanus prayers, rule or something similar may come from the "Bangor Antiphonary' preserved from that particular abbey.

Quote
Most Benedictine Houses are loosely affiliated in twenty national or supra-national congregations. Each of these congregations elects its own Abbot President or "Abbot General". These presidents meet annually in the Synod of Presidents. Additionally, there is a meeting every four years of the Congress of Abbots, which is made up of all abbots and conventual priors, both of Houses that are members of congregations, as well as of those unaffiliated with any particular congregation. The Congress of Abbots elects the Abbot Primate, who serves a four-year term as the Confederation's representative and administrative head, although without direct jurisdiction of the individual Congregations.

The Confederation has its headquarters at Sant'Anselmo in Rome, which is the seat of the Abbot Primate and hosts the quadrennial Congress of Abbots. Sant'Anselmo is also home to the Benedictine Pontifical Athenaeum.

Communities of Benedictine women are joined in sixty-one congregations and federations that are associated with the Confederation, although they do not have full membership. In November 2001 after a consultation process with all monasteries of Benedictine women around the world, it was decided to use the name Communio Internationalis Benedictinarum (CIB) to designate all communities of Benedictine women recognized by the Abbot Primate as such and listed in the Catalogus Monasteriorum O.S.B.

The first attempt to group Benedictine monasteries into national Congregations was at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. Only the English Benedictine Congregation survives from this early attempt at centralisation, and in historical reality even this Congregation is a 17th century foundation although it was given juridical continuity with the medieval English Congregation by the Papal Bull "Plantata" of 1633. Primacy of honour is given to the Cassinese Congregation (which had its origin in the Congregation of Santa Giustina, Padua, founded in 1408 by Lodovico Barbo), since this Congregation includes Monte Cassino Abbey, where St Benedict wrote his Rule and was buried (although Fleury Abbey also claims to house the remains of the saint).

The whole idea of using earlier western monastic rules which all disappeared by the time of the schism, is a nice idea in theory, however I do have concerns as to how practical it is.

Although Charlemagne enforced the benedictine rule on many, I do not know that it was really something that was protestested by monks and nuns in the time when that happened. So many seem to have voluntarily converted over to the benedictine rule without his influence.

This is an important question in the analysis of primitive latin monasticism and it's heritage.
Why it's more rigourous rules seemed to disappear while those of the east survived is a great mystery for me.
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« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2011, 03:33:55 AM »

I agree with you, Polycarp.

What in the world the Latin Catholic Church would do if it tried to come into Communion with Orthodoxy and decentralize its orders is hard to imagine..

The whole authority structure within the Latin Papal Church is interconnected with who it is by now, both the cause of many problems and the cause of its identity..

I don't think it's a hopeless scenario at all..but more difficult than many imagine to rememedy the ethos of it, where the authority become self destructive...
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« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2011, 03:41:56 AM »

As for the real reason most anglicans don't become orthodox is..

I think it is partially xenophobia..going both ways. (West toward East and East toward West)

Partially the perception that east and west are too different..(you notice the intellectuals who studied liturgical and early church history come over the most I think)
Partially poor reception by interested parties interested in becoming Orthodox in the past given a cold shoulder.

Apparently a good many anglicans who were interested in Orthodox were in fact told to "go away because you're not _fill in the blank nationality_ back in the 1960's and previous decades.
I've heard this story told over and over again by many traditionalist anglicans. It's had at least 4 decades to build itself into a legend.

Another legend is that the Western rite's in the Orthodox Church are not authentic and are overly byzantized. This is largely a myth I think, but it sure is popping up frequently on Papal Ordinariate liturgy conversations these days. Certain liturgies of the western rite within vagante groups or ROCOR might be byzantized too much, but the fact that hardly anyone uses them probably tells one who investigares that they arent much to be concerned about. (Most do not investigate very deeply)

His Excellency Kallistos Ware had this sort of experience when the greek orthodox priest said "if you think you may want to be a priest, you might want to go to the russians because they will ordain anyone, we prefer greeks" (paraphrasing here.)

The reputation going around them that you have to be ethnic to be Orthodox still is pervasive.
Thats largely why so many will join the Ordinariate, even though it has profound weaknesses with all the modernism and liberal protestant influence lingering about within the Papal church, it still lets them feel in harmony with other westerners and being under a culturally western bishop (crazy as many think the novus ordo-post vatican II baggage is, they'd rather put up with it for now).

I mean if you think about it...Anglicans and Episcopals have become so desentized to liberal christianity and compromises with heterodoxy within their recent history that the Papal Catholic Church and the compromised positions and chaos it's in are familiar enough to be recognizable, yet not nearly as bad as their recent anglican communion... The Orthodox are just..too Orthodox..?

But we ought not feel too bad, many of the anglicans and lutherans who come to Holy Orthodoxy are the best and brightest or most pious in some sense. Quality, over quantity.
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« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2011, 05:01:56 AM »

Quote
As for the rule of St Columbanus...we shall see if it will last because many eventually became benedictine:

Who is using the Rule of St Columbanus?

Best wishes,
Margaret
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« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2011, 06:15:22 AM »

Has this piece of writing from Fr Andrew Philips in the UK been mentioned?

"To Members of the Church of England
who are Unhappy at the Degradation of
their Communion and might consider ‘the Orthodox Option’"

http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/memscoe.htm
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« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2011, 06:39:10 AM »

The basic reason why few Episcopalians will jump ship to either conventional Orthodox or Catholic churches is that the vast majority of them look upon the current mess as a going off the rails of something that used to be working just fine. Thus they are not all that susceptible to chucking their entire tradition and starting over again. To keep their traditions, well, that requires bringing their priest with them, and that's why the ordinariate in particular is going to be minuscule in this country, but it's also an impediment to WRO.
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« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2011, 10:51:22 AM »

The basic reason why few Episcopalians will jump ship to either conventional Orthodox or Catholic churches is that the vast majority of them look upon the current mess as a going off the rails of something that used to be working just fine. Thus they are not all that susceptible to chucking their entire tradition and starting over again. To keep their traditions, well, that requires bringing their priest with them, and that's why the ordinariate in particular is going to be minuscule in this country, but it's also an impediment to WRO.

Episcopalians/Anglicans bringing their priest with them is a snap in WRO. Probably the big bulk of parishes in ROCOR or the AWRV have clergy who "came over". As a matter of fact this is the norm. In the case of ROCOR there is absolutely no interest in gaining access to parish assets or property as well. What will be important will be a firm adherence to the Orthodox faith. By that it will not mean acceptance of a Byzantinized Western Liturgy as (opposed to popular opinion) that is not the case. I can speak from direct and extensive  experience in all these matters. In the last year in North America alone there have been (or in the immediate works) about 20 parishes or monasteries that have come into ROCOR. If anyone whats confirmation as to what I write, contact me off list and I will direct anyone who is serious to the proper channels.

Father Deacon Robert (as of yesterday) ROCOR
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