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Author Topic: Inter-Orthodox Preparatory Commission begins its work in Chambesy  (Read 9841 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #90 on: February 25, 2011, 12:39:03 AM »

Five or seven parishes can hardly make a diocese. Not even a deanery.
I have to agree.  But to be fair, there are plenty of bishops in the "Mother Churches" whose Diocese do not have a single parish.
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« Reply #91 on: February 25, 2011, 02:15:22 AM »

By relevant I was referring to to word kicked around about the "modernizations" of Vatican IIo

like i've posted before, i'm a RC straonlgly drawn to the OC. Until I took instructions I didn't guess that there were so many cross jurisdictional squabbles. I would hold out hope for the council. As it is, I am going to visit western rite church of which there are several in houston as well as Byzantine rite services in English. Echoing some on this board, I hope they don't change central traditions in favor of being "relavent" whatever that means. pray for me in making a decison on which way to go. It is confusing.

You might be the most familiar with the mass at St Paul Orhtodox Church, coming from a RC background. Their web site says they use the Liturgy of St Gregory which is for the most part a latin mass in english. I think by "relevant" they mean using a western rite of worship in a traditionally western culture.
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« Reply #92 on: February 25, 2011, 01:37:10 PM »

By relevant I was referring to to word kicked around about the "modernizations" of Vatican IIo

like i've posted before, i'm a RC straonlgly drawn to the OC. Until I took instructions I didn't guess that there were so many cross jurisdictional squabbles. I would hold out hope for the council. As it is, I am going to visit western rite church of which there are several in houston as well as Byzantine rite services in English. Echoing some on this board, I hope they don't change central traditions in favor of being "relavent" whatever that means. pray for me in making a decison on which way to go. It is confusing.

You might be the most familiar with the mass at St Paul Orhtodox Church, coming from a RC background. Their web site says they use the Liturgy of St Gregory which is for the most part a latin mass in english. I think by "relevant" they mean using a western rite of worship in a traditionally western culture.

I think that has just as much of a chance happening in a WRO parish as it does in an ERO parish.
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« Reply #93 on: February 27, 2011, 06:39:45 AM »

The commission concluded its work on February 26th.

English: http://02varvara.wordpress.com/2011/02/26/meeting-of-the-inter-orthodox-preparatory-commission-in-chambesy-adjourns-on-saturday/

Quote
...
The Commission, whose task is to make a preliminary study on the agenda of any future all-Orthodox Council, followed up its discussions of 2009 on the subject of the granting of a Tomos of Autocephaly. Despite a lengthy discussion, the conferees couldn’t reach a unanimous decision on this topic. Thus, it acknowledged that the topic of autocephaly and the manner of its proclamation required further study. The Commission also discussed the topic of the Diptychs of the First Hierarchs of the Autocephalous Local Churches, examined the canonical and ecclesiological aspects involved, described the current practise of the Church in this matter, and studied the present criteria for the inclusion of a Local Church in the Sacred Diptychs and how the order of the First Hierarchs is fixed, as well as noting a need to have a common form of the Diptychs for all the Local Churches in future.

The commission examined the request of the Polish and Albanian Local Churches for standardisation involving the placement of their First Hierarchs in the Sacred Diptychs of the Autocephalous Local Churches. It proposed that these requests merited further study, and that it should study appropriate changes in the Diptychs. At the meeting, the commission also heard requests from the Local Church of Georgia concerning it being in the sixth place in the Sacred Diptychs of the Local Autocephalous Churches and from the Local Church of Cyprus concerning the promotion of its First Hierarch to a higher position in the Sacred Diptychs. At present, the members couldn't reach a general agreement on these questions, as the differences in the Sacred Diptychs used by individual Local Churches have their origin in the lack of an all-Orthodox consensus regarding the number of Autocephalous Local Churches.

...

Russian: http://www.mospat.ru/ru/2011/02/26/news36896/ and http://www.patriarchia.ru/db/text/1417623.html*

* The text on Patriarchia.ru states that the Bulgarian Patriarchate was represented by Metropolitan Neophyte of Rousse, which is not true. The text on Mospat.ru states correctly that the Bulgarian Patriarchate was represented by Metropolitan Kyril of Varna.

Bulgarian: http://www.dveri.bg/content/view/12823/33/

French: http://www.orthodoxie.com/2011/02/chamb%C3%A9sy-fin-des-travaux-de-la-commission-pr%C3%A9paratoire-inter-orthodoxe.html
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« Reply #94 on: February 27, 2011, 11:03:50 AM »

The commission concluded its work on February 26th.

English: http://02varvara.wordpress.com/2011/02/26/meeting-of-the-inter-orthodox-preparatory-commission-in-chambesy-adjourns-on-saturday/

Quote
...
The Commission, whose task is to make a preliminary study on the agenda of any future all-Orthodox Council, followed up its discussions of 2009 on the subject of the granting of a Tomos of Autocephaly. Despite a lengthy discussion, the conferees couldn’t reach a unanimous decision on this topic. Thus, it acknowledged that the topic of autocephaly and the manner of its proclamation required further study. The Commission also discussed the topic of the Diptychs of the First Hierarchs of the Autocephalous Local Churches, examined the canonical and ecclesiological aspects involved, described the current practise of the Church in this matter, and studied the present criteria for the inclusion of a Local Church in the Sacred Diptychs and how the order of the First Hierarchs is fixed, as well as noting a need to have a common form of the Diptychs for all the Local Churches in future.

The commission examined the request of the Polish and Albanian Local Churches for standardisation involving the placement of their First Hierarchs in the Sacred Diptychs of the Autocephalous Local Churches. It proposed that these requests merited further study, and that it should study appropriate changes in the Diptychs. At the meeting, the commission also heard requests from the Local Church of Georgia concerning it being in the sixth place in the Sacred Diptychs of the Local Autocephalous Churches and from the Local Church of Cyprus concerning the promotion of its First Hierarch to a higher position in the Sacred Diptychs. At present, the members couldn't reach a general agreement on these questions, as the differences in the Sacred Diptychs used by individual Local Churches have their origin in the lack of an all-Orthodox consensus regarding the number of Autocephalous Local Churches.

...

Russian: http://www.mospat.ru/ru/2011/02/26/news36896/ and http://www.patriarchia.ru/db/text/1417623.html*

* The text on Patriarchia.ru states that the Bulgarian Patriarchate was represented by Metropolitan Neophyte of Rousse, which is not true. The text on Mospat.ru states correctly that the Bulgarian Patriarchate was represented by Metropolitan Kyril of Varna.

Bulgarian: http://www.dveri.bg/content/view/12823/33/

French: http://www.orthodoxie.com/2011/02/chamb%C3%A9sy-fin-des-travaux-de-la-commission-pr%C3%A9paratoire-inter-orthodoxe.html
LOL
Quote
The Commission, whose task is to make a preliminary study on the agenda of any future all-Orthodox Council, followed up its discussions of 2009 on the subject of the granting of a Tomos of Autocephaly. Despite a lengthy discussion, the conferees couldn’t reach a unanimous decision on this topic.
Plain English: the Greek Church tried to yet again get the other Churches to accept the canon 28 mythology, and the other Churches told the Phanar that t could hold its collective breath until its face turned blue, they were not swallowing it.

Quote
Thus, it acknowledged that the topic of autocephaly and the manner of its proclamation required further study.
Don't hold your breath.

Quote
The Commission also discussed the topic of the Diptychs of the First Hierarchs of the Autocephalous Local Churches, examined the canonical and ecclesiological aspects involved, described the current practise of the Church in this matter, and studied the present criteria for the inclusion of a Local Church in the Sacred Diptychs and how the order of the First Hierarchs is fixed, as well as noting a need to have a common form of the Diptychs for all the Local Churches in future.
Any reason in particular why the order being exactly the same in each and every Local Churches is such a burning issue?

Quote
At present, the members couldn't reach a general agreement on these questions, as the differences in the Sacred Diptychs used by individual Local Churches have their origin in the lack of an all-Orthodox consensus regarding the number of Autocephalous Local Churches.
I thought that with Constantinople finally recognizing, after nearly half a century, the Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia, that we were all agree on the first 14, and the OCA, the 15th is last on the diptychs.  How does that affect the order?  Even if Sebia doesn't recognize the CzS Church-as might be the case as I recently found on the Serbia Diocese of Buda-its next to last anyway.

Definitely underlinging that we have to cease to be proxy battlefield for the "Mother Churches."
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« Reply #95 on: February 27, 2011, 06:32:18 PM »


So you do not think that the EP has the highest honor and influence among the current patriarchs?

That is correct.  I believe that Moscow is the Third Rome, and there will be no fourth. 
Fortunately, what matters is what the Church thinks, not what we as individuals opine.

Pray tell me what "the Church" thinks.  The mess here in the United States is pretty good evidence to me that "the Church" had done a lot of arguing, but not a lot of thinking.  When "Churches" cease to follow the canons (written by "the Church" and agreed to at some time by "the Church"), does what they think matter any more than what any other Orthodox Christian may think?  In any case, I was not asked what "the Church" thinks since I am sure the original questioner was smart enough to know that I don't speak for "the Church".  I was asked what "I" think, making what "the Church" thinks irrelevant to the question.  Heck, as far as that goes, I don't recall your opinion even being asked, making what you think matters totally irrelevant to the conversation.  If and when "the Church" gets its act together and comes to an agreement on the issue (not only in word but in deed), I will submit to whatever "the Church" agrees.
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« Reply #96 on: February 27, 2011, 11:45:23 PM »

More news is coming out, all of it good (from MPOV  Tongue).  Met. Amphilohious, the delegate of Serbia and disciple of St. Justin, in his opening remarks brought up that authroity and preconditions of calling the Council have not been settled, and evidently hinted that it was not the EP's call.
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« Reply #97 on: February 28, 2011, 06:30:23 AM »

Five or seven parishes can hardly make a diocese. Not even a deanery.

Originally every congregation had a Bishop...
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« Reply #98 on: February 28, 2011, 10:42:03 AM »

This report suggests that Polish/Albanian position case has been solved but does not say how. On the other hand the one posted by ag_vn states that it has been not.

Strange.

edit:

I have got a unofficial info that Poland in all dyptychs will be now before Albania.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #99 on: March 01, 2011, 03:36:24 PM »

This report suggests that Polish/Albanian position case has been solved but does not say how. On the other hand the one posted by ag_vn states that it has been not.

Strange.

edit:

I have got a unofficial info that Poland in all dyptychs will be now before Albania.

No offense, but why would that be?  Albania is Apostolic and larger in both numbers and percentage of the population?  I know that the Phanar had refused to recognize the autocephaly of Albania because it wasn't the majority Faith of Albanians, and then turned around and "gave" autocephaly to Poland, which was neither majority Orthodox nor in the Phanar's jurisdiction. Is that what lays at the base of this, what order Constantinople recognizes your autocephaly?
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« Reply #100 on: March 01, 2011, 03:41:46 PM »

This report suggests that Polish/Albanian position case has been solved but does not say how. On the other hand the one posted by ag_vn states that it has been not.

Strange.

edit:

I have got a unofficial info that Poland in all dyptychs will be now before Albania.

No offense, but why would that be?  Albania is Apostolic and larger in both numbers and percentage of the population?  I know that the Phanar had refused to recognize the autocephaly of Albania because it wasn't the majority Faith of Albanians, and then turned around and "gave" autocephaly to Poland, which was neither majority Orthodox nor in the Phanar's jurisdiction. Is that what lays at the base of this, what order Constantinople recognizes your autocephaly?
I actually agree with ialmisry on this one Shocked
It happens every 500 posts.
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« Reply #101 on: March 01, 2011, 04:08:07 PM »

someone wake me up after this has convened and the results thereof...  Kiss
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« Reply #102 on: March 01, 2011, 04:17:57 PM »

I would be willing to bet that 99% of the Orthodox world either has no idea what a dyptych is, doesn't care what a dyptych is or finally, don't care what order they are in. The remaining one percent are either sycophants whispering in their Bishop's ears that they should be OFFENDED!!! or they are posters on this thread.  Wink  (BTW, if you're wondering, I do know what they are.)
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« Reply #103 on: March 01, 2011, 04:23:44 PM »

i was just weighing up the pro's and con's of asking what is a dyptich!
i thought it was some kind of icon, or maybe a song? but it seems it's some kind of discussion!

one of the reasons i came on this site was to learn greek and russian terms  Wink so maybe you can help me. if you like i'll tell you the arabic equivalents!

anyway, we in the coptic church are praying for you all  Smiley
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« Reply #104 on: March 01, 2011, 04:44:23 PM »

Is that what lays at the base of this, what order Constantinople recognizes your autocephaly?

I have no idea, I'm not Patriarch Bartholomew.

For the the objective order according to the dates of autocephaly is better than the subjective order according to the 'importance' or 'historical impact'.
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« Reply #105 on: March 01, 2011, 04:48:58 PM »

i was just weighing up the pro's and con's of asking what is a dyptich!
i thought it was some kind of icon, or maybe a song? but it seems it's some kind of discussion!

one of the reasons i came on this site was to learn greek and russian terms  Wink so maybe you can help me. if you like i'll tell you the arabic equivalents!

anyway, we in the coptic church are praying for you all  Smiley

FYI:  The context referred to here is not the icon form, but a list.  Where your name comes on the list of Bishops apparently means where you sit at the grownup table.  It is something most people would never think of in their spiritual lives although you should always ask your pastor if you have doubts as to whether your church is, or is not in communion with another church.  From orthodoxwiki:  Dyptych/diptich:

Lists

List of names

The diptychs is a list of names of the living and departed that are commemorated by the parish during the Divine Liturgy. The living are inscribed on one side of the diptych, and the departed on the other. When a living member departs, the name is crossed off on side and entered on the other. More common today, the list is on folded cardboard or in a booklet.

List of primates

The diptychs is a list of names used by an autocephalous church to commemorate the primates of all the world's autocephalous churches. The names in the diptychs are read liturgically by the deacon (and echoed by the choir) only at a Hierarchical Divine Liturgy celebrated by a patriarch or autocephalous primate.
The phrase inscribing of a bishop's name in the diptychs means that the church considers itself to be in communion with him, the removal of a bishop's name would indicate breaking communion with him.
    
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« Reply #106 on: March 01, 2011, 05:07:34 PM »

Is that what lays at the base of this, what order Constantinople recognizes your autocephaly?

I have no idea, I'm not Patriarch Bartholomew.
Pray God HAH is not the one deciding this.

For the the objective order according to the dates of autocephaly is better than the subjective order according to the 'importance' or 'historical impact'.
LOL. There are no objective dates of autocephaly.
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« Reply #107 on: March 01, 2011, 05:25:15 PM »

I would be willing to bet that 99% of the Orthodox world either has no idea what a dyptych is, doesn't care what a dyptych is or finally, don't care what order they are in. The remaining one percent are either sycophants whispering in their Bishop's ears that they should be OFFENDED!!! or they are posters on this thread.  Wink  (BTW, if you're wondering, I do know what they are.)

The only ones who hear them regularly are the autocephalous primates, which of course is the reason why this is being discussed as if it were important. The only spot that really has any importance is the top spot, and even then more is made of it than it really is.

Diptychs are one of those important things everyone forgets until something jarrs your memory of how imporant they, like the US Electoral College and the Florida 2000 presidential election, the reserve powers and the Byng–King Thing and the Dismissal of Whitlam.  In the case of the diptychs, it was the Estonia Crisis of 1996 (or the Greek crisis of 2004).

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« Reply #108 on: March 01, 2011, 05:41:31 PM »

I would be willing to bet that 99% of the Orthodox world either has no idea what a dyptych is, doesn't care what a dyptych is or finally, don't care what order they are in. The remaining one percent are either sycophants whispering in their Bishop's ears that they should be OFFENDED!!! or they are posters on this thread.  Wink  (BTW, if you're wondering, I do know what they are.)

And, 99.99 percent would not know the significance of augustine agreeing with isa--a rare event, like comett (fill in the blank).
back to the diptychs, I find them to be as useful as extra fingers or toes, thereby agreeing with you (I think--long day!).
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« Reply #109 on: March 01, 2011, 06:43:47 PM »

is better than the subjective order according to the 'importance' or 'historical impact'.

But that's exactly how the order of the first 6 churches (Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Cyprus) in the time of the Pentarchy was decided.
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« Reply #110 on: March 02, 2011, 02:18:49 AM »

I find the Dyptics a beautiful sign of the unity of Holy Orthodoxy; the deacons and priests commemorate the bishop under whose authority they serve; the bishop commemorates the Primate (or First Hierarch) of the Synod in which he serves; the primates of eparchial (provincial)synods commemorate the primate of the Holy Orthodox Church in which the eparchy is within; and the Primates of the Holy Orthodox Churches commemorate all the Primates, or "heads" of the Holy Orthodox Churches.  "Among the first, remember Lord..."

During the past 200 years, there are variances among the order of the "heads" that each of the Holy Churches observes, so the Holy and Great Synod of the Orthodox Church will convene to establish a uniform order of commemoration in the Dyptics.  The Preconciliar Commissions are meeting to discuss the reasoning of each of the Churches, to develop a consensus prior to the convening of the Holy and Great Synod.  What is occurring now, is due process.
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« Reply #111 on: March 02, 2011, 03:12:08 AM »

is better than the subjective order according to the 'importance' or 'historical impact'.

But that's exactly how the order of the first 6 churches (Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Cyprus) in the time of the Pentarchy was decided.

Cyprus  is the first non-Patriarchal autocephalous Church so it begins the second category too.
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« Reply #112 on: March 02, 2011, 05:05:45 AM »

I find the Dyptics a beautiful sign of the unity of Holy Orthodoxy; the deacons and priests commemorate the bishop under whose authority they serve; the bishop commemorates the Primate (or First Hierarch) of the Synod in which he serves; the primates of eparchial (provincial)synods commemorate the primate of the Holy Orthodox Church in which the eparchy is within; and the Primates of the Holy Orthodox Churches commemorate all the Primates, or "heads" of the Holy Orthodox Churches.  "Among the first, remember Lord..."

During the past 200 years, there are variances among the order of the "heads" that each of the Holy Churches observes, so the Holy and Great Synod of the Orthodox Church will convene to establish a uniform order of commemoration in the Dyptics.  The Preconciliar Commissions are meeting to discuss the reasoning of each of the Churches, to develop a consensus prior to the convening of the Holy and Great Synod.  What is occurring now, is due process.
Needless process.

I like the diptychs too, but I fail to see (or rather, they have failed to explain) why the order is so important as long as its the same Churches.  Is something missing if one Church puts Poland in front of Albania or vice versa? Has the differences caused some major crisis in the Church that I am not aware of?

They're wacking about the bushes about the top spot and about no. 15 getting the last spot.  Everything in between is trivial.
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« Reply #113 on: March 02, 2011, 05:16:56 AM »

I find the Dyptics a beautiful sign of the unity of Holy Orthodoxy; the deacons and priests commemorate the bishop under whose authority they serve; the bishop commemorates the Primate (or First Hierarch) of the Synod in which he serves; the primates of eparchial (provincial)synods commemorate the primate of the Holy Orthodox Church in which the eparchy is within; and the Primates of the Holy Orthodox Churches commemorate all the Primates, or "heads" of the Holy Orthodox Churches.  "Among the first, remember Lord..."

During the past 200 years, there are variances among the order of the "heads" that each of the Holy Churches observes, so the Holy and Great Synod of the Orthodox Church will convene to establish a uniform order of commemoration in the Dyptics.  The Preconciliar Commissions are meeting to discuss the reasoning of each of the Churches, to develop a consensus prior to the convening of the Holy and Great Synod.  What is occurring now, is due process.
Needless process.

I like the diptychs too, but I fail to see (or rather, they have failed to explain) why the order is so important as long as its the same Churches.  Is something missing if one Church puts Poland in front of Albania or vice versa? Has the differences caused some major crisis in the Church that I am not aware of?

They're wacking about the bushes about the top spot and about no. 15 getting the last spot.  Everything in between is trivial.

Perhaps the ranking is not so significant, but is not the identity of the autocephalous churches, and thus the primates who are commemorated rather significant? Is there not divergence on who exactly are the primates being commemorated, besides the matter of rank?
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« Reply #114 on: March 02, 2011, 05:56:49 AM »

I find the Dyptics a beautiful sign of the unity of Holy Orthodoxy; the deacons and priests commemorate the bishop under whose authority they serve; the bishop commemorates the Primate (or First Hierarch) of the Synod in which he serves; the primates of eparchial (provincial)synods commemorate the primate of the Holy Orthodox Church in which the eparchy is within; and the Primates of the Holy Orthodox Churches commemorate all the Primates, or "heads" of the Holy Orthodox Churches.  "Among the first, remember Lord..."

During the past 200 years, there are variances among the order of the "heads" that each of the Holy Churches observes, so the Holy and Great Synod of the Orthodox Church will convene to establish a uniform order of commemoration in the Dyptics.  The Preconciliar Commissions are meeting to discuss the reasoning of each of the Churches, to develop a consensus prior to the convening of the Holy and Great Synod.  What is occurring now, is due process.
Needless process.

I like the diptychs too, but I fail to see (or rather, they have failed to explain) why the order is so important as long as its the same Churches.  Is something missing if one Church puts Poland in front of Albania or vice versa? Has the differences caused some major crisis in the Church that I am not aware of?

They're wacking about the bushes about the top spot and about no. 15 getting the last spot.  Everything in between is trivial.

Perhaps the ranking is not so significant, but is not the identity of the autocephalous churches, and thus the primates who are commemorated rather significant? Is there not divergence on who exactly are the primates being commemorated, besides the matter of rank?
No, the only dispute is on Met. Jonah and the OCA. Everyone else is agreed by all 15.
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« Reply #115 on: March 02, 2011, 06:01:12 AM »

I find the Dyptics a beautiful sign of the unity of Holy Orthodoxy; the deacons and priests commemorate the bishop under whose authority they serve; the bishop commemorates the Primate (or First Hierarch) of the Synod in which he serves; the primates of eparchial (provincial)synods commemorate the primate of the Holy Orthodox Church in which the eparchy is within; and the Primates of the Holy Orthodox Churches commemorate all the Primates, or "heads" of the Holy Orthodox Churches.  "Among the first, remember Lord..."

During the past 200 years, there are variances among the order of the "heads" that each of the Holy Churches observes, so the Holy and Great Synod of the Orthodox Church will convene to establish a uniform order of commemoration in the Dyptics.  The Preconciliar Commissions are meeting to discuss the reasoning of each of the Churches, to develop a consensus prior to the convening of the Holy and Great Synod.  What is occurring now, is due process.
Needless process.

I like the diptychs too, but I fail to see (or rather, they have failed to explain) why the order is so important as long as its the same Churches.  Is something missing if one Church puts Poland in front of Albania or vice versa? Has the differences caused some major crisis in the Church that I am not aware of?

They're wacking about the bushes about the top spot and about no. 15 getting the last spot.  Everything in between is trivial.

Perhaps the ranking is not so significant, but is not the identity of the autocephalous churches, and thus the primates who are commemorated rather significant? Is there not divergence on who exactly are the primates being commemorated, besides the matter of rank?
No, the only dispute is on Met. Jonah and the OCA. Everyone else is agreed by all 15.

Well, that's what I had in mind. Do some of the primates commemorate only 13 fellow primates rather than 14?
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« Reply #116 on: March 02, 2011, 11:55:07 AM »

Well, that's what I had in mind. Do some of the primates commemorate only 13 fellow primates rather than 14?

Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Cyprus and Greece.

I don't know about Georgia, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania and Czech lands and  Slovakia.
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« Reply #117 on: March 02, 2011, 12:32:51 PM »

Well, that's what I had in mind. Do some of the primates commemorate only 13 fellow primates rather than 14?

Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Cyprus and Greece.

I don't know about Georgia, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania and Czech lands and  Slovakia.

I don't recall who the Pope commemorated, I just know that the OCA wasn't.

In North America at least, Antioch commemorates 14.

Who are the Greek Church (C, A, J, Cy, CoG) and Antioch missing?
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« Reply #118 on: March 02, 2011, 12:43:49 PM »

In North America at least, Antioch commemorates 14.

There are 15 Churches and only 14 Primates can be commemorated during the Great Entrance (you don't commemorate yourself). How Antiochians in the US can commemorate anyone as Patriarch is in Damascus not in America?
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« Reply #119 on: March 02, 2011, 02:26:41 PM »

In North America at least, Antioch commemorates 14.

There are 15 Churches and only 14 Primates can be commemorated during the Great Entrance (you don't commemorate yourself). How Antiochians in the US can commemorate anyone as Patriarch is in Damascus not in America?
I've been to a Patriarchal DL in Chicago, but that's not what I am thinking about.  IIRC it was when the bishop visited for DL.  I thought it was sometime 1998-2001, but I'm not sure when, or if it was another time.  I do remember that one of the Churches was between primates, as the Holy Synod was commemorated instead.  IIRC, it was read during the Great Entrance.

And the primate doesn't read the diptychs, at least in Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Russia, Serbia and the OCA (the only primatial DL's I've been to): the Deacon reads it and bows to the primate when he is commemorated.

http://www.oca.org/PDF/official/2010-0123-diptychs.pdf

I don't know why the bishop did it at this DL, but he (or rather the clergy) did do it.
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« Reply #120 on: March 02, 2011, 03:12:25 PM »

I remember the late patriarch Teoctist would do the commemoration of the heads autochephalous churches himself (at the Great Entrance) and he, then, would be commemorated by some other clergyman serving.
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« Reply #121 on: March 02, 2011, 04:48:32 PM »

Well, that's what I had in mind. Do some of the primates commemorate only 13 fellow primates rather than 14?

Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Cyprus and Greece.

I don't know about Georgia, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania and Czech lands and  Slovakia.

Well, that's what I was trying to get at. I would think that the actual list of who is commemorated would be a more basic and important issue than in what order they are commemorated.
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« Reply #122 on: March 02, 2011, 05:08:41 PM »

Well, that's what I had in mind. Do some of the primates commemorate only 13 fellow primates rather than 14?

Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Cyprus and Greece.

I don't know about Georgia, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania and Czech lands and  Slovakia.

Well, that's what I was trying to get at. I would think that the actual list of who is commemorated would be a more basic and important issue than in what order they are commemorated.

Right. And, even so this is not a must but a good thing, a desirable thing. Not being on someone's list does not necessarily mean than you are not canonical. Looking at OCA today, I believe the position of all canonical churches is that OCA is canonical. It is her autocephaly that is not agreed to, that's all. If you look at history, can anyone maintain that the various churches that have had recognition problems were not canonical during the years (sometimes centuries) when their autocephaly was not recognized by one or more of the other churches. I think we should consider factors above and beyond official recognition and placement in the diptychs. First of all, if a church does not report to another church, then she is de facto autocephalous. Her canonicity depends on whether she  keeps the deposit of faith and believes, preaches and practices as the other Orthodox churches. Lesser additional factors may be active monastic life, theological seminaries, presence of ordinary ministries, etc.
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« Reply #123 on: March 02, 2011, 05:14:34 PM »

Looking at OCA today, I believe the position of all canonical churches is that OCA is canonical. It is her autocephaly that is not agreed to, that's all. If you look at history, can anyone maintain that the various churches that have had recognition problems were not canonical during the years (sometimes centuries) when their autocephaly was not recognized by one or more of the other churches. I think we should consider factors above and beyond official recognition and placement in the diptychs. First of all, if a church does not report to another church, then she is de facto autocephalous. Her canonicity depends on whether she  keeps the deposit of faith and believes, preaches and practices as the other Orthodox churches. Lesser additional factors may be active monastic life, theological seminaries, presence of ordinary ministries, etc.

Right - the position of those Churches which do not recognize her autocephaly is that the OCA is a part of the Patriarchate of Moscow and All Russia, and thus they are praying for the OCA when they commemorate Patriarch KYRILL; canonical, but not autocephalous.
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« Reply #124 on: March 03, 2011, 12:20:31 AM »

Why lessen the fasting requirements when we are at an apex in human history regarding the availability of food? We have more choices now than ever, so fasting is actually easier today than it was for most of the history of the Church.
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« Reply #125 on: March 03, 2011, 01:05:14 AM »

Looking at OCA today, I believe the position of all canonical churches is that OCA is canonical. It is her autocephaly that is not agreed to, that's all. If you look at history, can anyone maintain that the various churches that have had recognition problems were not canonical during the years (sometimes centuries) when their autocephaly was not recognized by one or more of the other churches. I think we should consider factors above and beyond official recognition and placement in the diptychs. First of all, if a church does not report to another church, then she is de facto autocephalous. Her canonicity depends on whether she  keeps the deposit of faith and believes, preaches and practices as the other Orthodox churches. Lesser additional factors may be active monastic life, theological seminaries, presence of ordinary ministries, etc.

Right - the position of those Churches which do not recognize her autocephaly is that the OCA is a part of the Patriarchate of Moscow and All Russia, and thus they are praying for the OCA when they commemorate Patriarch KYRILL; canonical, but not autocephalous.
Btw, the OCA is unique in this: I cannot think of another Church whose autocephaly was questioned (and they ALL have been questioned or compromised at one time or another) being in communion with all the autocephalous Churches whose autocephaly was not questioned and held canonical by them all.
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« Reply #126 on: March 03, 2011, 02:49:48 AM »

ialmisry, Re. Your Reply #112

Are they really debating the no. one position?  Is the preconciliar commission openly debating which church should be the first ranked?  Would you elaborate about what you may know about this?
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« Reply #127 on: March 03, 2011, 04:15:27 AM »

ialmisry, Re. Your Reply #112

Are they really debating the no. one position?  Is the preconciliar commission openly debating which church should be the first ranked?  Would you elaborate about what you may know about this?
That isn't a secret, is it?

Have they come right out and started debating it? No, I don't think so.  It isn't debated right now because the Phanar wants this whole thing scripted for rubber stamping, and the rest are playing along for the time being for their own reasons. But everyone knows it's coming.  The Serbian delegate, Metropolitan Amphilochios (a disciple of St. Justin, a known opponent of this council. One of the Russian delegatin, Abp. Mark not only is a ROCOR bishop (and hence an afront just by that to the Phanar's 28 canon) but received his theological training with the disciples of St. Justin) shot across the bow, bringing up in his opening statements that the criteria, preconditions and authority of opening this council has not been decided, implying it does not rest with Phanar alone as no. one.

Russia has a valid arguement, and every right to make it, of why it should be first.  It probably won't go off script to do that until the council actually is opened and Constantinople will be in no position to put the genie back in the bottle.  As long as Russia keeps that card, the Phanar isn't going to call this council.

But the issue of the OCA will be dealt with first, as a trial run for the battle on the top spot.  As long as Russia doesn't abandon the OCA (and it really can't, without weakening its position and enhancing and strengthening the Phanar's at the same time), these preconciliar meetings will go on ad infinitum until the Greek Church gives in to reality (and there is PLENTY of historical precedent that that is exactly what will happen), or the other Churches move on. Or Russsia decides to call the bluff.

On the top spot, Constantinople has it by no divine right.  As Fr. Jensen says, our problem is that we have tended to practically dogmatize our application of the canons to the exigencies of the times.
Archbishop Gregory (Afonsky): The Canonical Status of the Patriarch of Constantinople in the Orthodox Church
http://palamas.blogspot.com/2009_04_23_archive.html
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« Reply #128 on: March 03, 2011, 10:01:14 AM »

Resolving the autocephaly issue is important and a lot a egos on ALL sides will have to be assuaged and face will have to be saved. However, if the order of the diptychs becomes a stumbling block to progress, than woe to all of us. 
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« Reply #129 on: March 03, 2011, 01:33:25 PM »

Thank you, ialmisry, for the information, not that I find it heartening.
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« Reply #130 on: March 03, 2011, 03:20:07 PM »

This about Poland before Albania is official:

http://www.centreorthodoxe.org/index.php?lang=fr&smenu=smenu5&nav=secretariat3
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« Reply #131 on: March 03, 2011, 03:27:31 PM »

I do not see anything on an official decision.
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« Reply #132 on: March 03, 2011, 03:33:09 PM »

Have you read the report?
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« Reply #133 on: March 03, 2011, 03:42:30 PM »

Can not a council be administrative in nature?  Meaning, cleaning up house.  God knows there's lots of stuff that needs attention.  Just don't go crazy as Vatican II went...don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Father Vasyl, you hit it right on the head!  There's a lot of administrative stuff that needs to be taken care of.  People did things at certain times for certain reasons that were right at the time, but now needs to be corrected.

Secondly (and I received this from a bishop who is under the EP) when Patriarch Bartholomew went to Moscow last year to meet with Patriarch Kirill, Patiarch Kirill made it very clear that the Orthodox needs to have a Pan-Orthodox council and it must have it within the next three years, and that Moscow will do all it can to make it happen, including funds from the Russian government if need be.  Patriarch Kirill knows the threats from secularism, from Islam (and this myth about "only 'radical' Islam being the problem is pure BS), from the severe fragmentation of Orthodoxy and the sheer numbers of wolves in riasas preying on Orthodox faithful and misleading them. 

I pray that this council will solve a LOT of problems.
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« Reply #134 on: March 03, 2011, 03:54:15 PM »

Have you read the report?
This?
http://www.centreorthodoxe.org/docs/La%20Commission%20interorthodoxe%20preparatoire%20pour%20le%20Saint%20et%20grand%20Concile%20de%20l.pdf

I see they should have put a comma in after "seconde,"  as I see now in the Greek and Russian.  Now it makes sense.

I wonder, had Albania agreed to this beforehand?
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