Author Topic: Fasting Tips?  (Read 19550 times)

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Offline GreekChef

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #90 on: March 16, 2011, 04:37:32 PM »
Personally, I think of the fasting diet as a simple math problem.  Where we subtract something from our diet (such as cheese on a salad), we should try to add something back which will maintain a healthy diet (such as an avocado).

Fasting is NOT meant to HURT us physically.  So if removing something from your diet is harmful, either don't remove it (there are other ways to fast, after all), or substitute it with something which will compensate and help you maintain the nutrition you need.  This is what I have always been taught. 

Personally, I have terrible problems with my blood sugar, so during Lent, I drink protein shakes made with soy milk (I know they are whey protein, but there's only so much I can do...), and I use other soy products (like soy crumbles in a Lenten soup with beans) in order to maintain the protein levels the doctor says I need.

I fully believe that using substitutes is absolutely okay, especially if one is not a skilled enough chef to know how to cook WITHOUT them, or if one has dietary needs such that the substitutes are necessary.  In fact, I would go as far as to say that using soy products is NOT a substitute for meat, or margerine for olive oil/butter, etc.  As a chef, I personally feel there is just NO comparison between the real thing and the substitute.  Take soy crumbles and meat.  Not in a million years would I choose soy crumbles over meat.  They're just nasty.  But I muddle through because it's necessary...  Same with margerine.  It doesn't taste like butter to me, it certainly doesn't cook like butter... Anyway, now I'm going off on a tangent.

Just try to remember to add something back that maintains the nutrition you need.  I know way too many people who eat nothing but starch through Lent.  This is really unhealthy.  Go for the nutrition!  :)
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #91 on: March 16, 2011, 04:45:30 PM »
Well, I'll go back to what I said. I make sure to wear a girdle I tighten over the course of the fast. I smear more and more ash every day around my eyes. And I know a theatrical make-up graduate who has taught me how to create the look of a callous developing over time using super-glue and cornstarch, which I apply greater amounts of to my forehead over the course of the fast as well.

And I generally walked hunched over a bit.

As for my breath on the strict fast days . . . well you don't want to know.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #92 on: March 16, 2011, 05:26:16 PM »
That is not to say Grandma ate Paleo, but that generation was far closer to a healthful diet than we are today.

Maybe yours, but not mine. My grandparents ate eggs, sausage or bacon, grits, and biscuits with butter practically everyday, at least later on in life when they could afford it. Everything was cooked in lard. When my dad was younger, he took a biscuit for lunch to school. He was lucky when they had meat to put in it. Not many vegetables, unless it was summer.

(One of the reasons for the proliferation of patent medicines at or around the 1890s, which resulted in Coca-Cola, was the crappy diet that most people ate which caused terrible digestive problems. That, and the many Civil War veterans who returned home with morphine and laudanum problems.)

eggs, sausage or bacon, grits, and biscuits with butter practically everyday, at least later on in life when they could afford it. Everything was cooked in lard.


Except for the biscuits, those are all excellent choices. Have you been reading along?

Plus, the meat and eggs were not likely factory raised so they were not pumped up with hormones or unnatural feed. Even the bread a biscuits were not made with high fructose corn syrup like today...

Remember. Butter is health food.  

http://www.westonaprice.org/myths-a-truths?qh=YToxOntpOjA7czo2OiJidXR0ZXIiO30%3D

btw.. I have spent 20 + years as a Civil War reenactor so I know what they ate and have done so myself.

The Rebs at peanuts. Lots of peanuts. Plus Coffee and Hard Tack. Peanuts are not a nut, the are a bean... Those are all Neolithic foods.

The Union ate better, but still lots of hard tack.. Have you ever eaten any? The have a shelf life of 50 years... no kidding.. 

Stress also ruins your tummy.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 05:31:58 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Shiny

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #93 on: March 17, 2011, 06:42:20 AM »
Personally, I think of the fasting diet as a simple math problem.  Where we subtract something from our diet (such as cheese on a salad), we should try to add something back which will maintain a healthy diet (such as an avocado).

Fasting is NOT meant to HURT us physically.  So if removing something from your diet is harmful, either don't remove it (there are other ways to fast, after all), or substitute it with something which will compensate and help you maintain the nutrition you need.  This is what I have always been taught. 

Personally, I have terrible problems with my blood sugar, so during Lent, I drink protein shakes made with soy milk (I know they are whey protein, but there's only so much I can do...), and I use other soy products (like soy crumbles in a Lenten soup with beans) in order to maintain the protein levels the doctor says I need.

I fully believe that using substitutes is absolutely okay, especially if one is not a skilled enough chef to know how to cook WITHOUT them, or if one has dietary needs such that the substitutes are necessary.  In fact, I would go as far as to say that using soy products is NOT a substitute for meat, or margerine for olive oil/butter, etc.  As a chef, I personally feel there is just NO comparison between the real thing and the substitute.  Take soy crumbles and meat.  Not in a million years would I choose soy crumbles over meat.  They're just nasty.  But I muddle through because it's necessary...  Same with margerine.  It doesn't taste like butter to me, it certainly doesn't cook like butter... Anyway, now I'm going off on a tangent.

Just try to remember to add something back that maintains the nutrition you need.  I know way too many people who eat nothing but starch through Lent.  This is really unhealthy.  Go for the nutrition!  :)
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #94 on: March 17, 2011, 09:47:04 AM »
Except for the biscuits, those are all excellent choices. Have you been reading along?

Plus, the meat and eggs were not likely factory raised so they were not pumped up with hormones or unnatural feed. Even the bread a biscuits were not made with high fructose corn syrup like today...
Perhaps - when he was younger and lived on his grandfather's farm, but the meat and eggs he ate later in life came from the A & P. And all the vegetables were, of course, cooked to death with ham hocks or bacon or streak o' lean.

Quote
Have you ever eaten any? The have a shelf life of 50 years... no kidding.. 
I have, as a matter of fact, if gnawing on a corner and chipping a tooth counts as eating.  ;D
Luckily there was no extra protein (weevils) in it.  :P
Today we have the opportunity to eat better than at any time in history. It's a mistake, I think, to sort of romanticize previous eras as having better food or better nutrition. It's just not so.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #95 on: March 17, 2011, 10:20:45 AM »
Except for the biscuits, those are all excellent choices. Have you been reading along?

Plus, the meat and eggs were not likely factory raised so they were not pumped up with hormones or unnatural feed. Even the bread a biscuits were not made with high fructose corn syrup like today...
Perhaps - when he was younger and lived on his grandfather's farm, but the meat and eggs he ate later in life came from the A & P. And all the vegetables were, of course, cooked to death with ham hocks or bacon or streak o' lean.

Quote
Have you ever eaten any? The have a shelf life of 50 years... no kidding.. 
I have, as a matter of fact, if gnawing on a corner and chipping a tooth counts as eating.  ;D
Luckily there was no extra protein (weevils) in it.  :P
Today we have the opportunity to eat better than at any time in history. It's a mistake, I think, to sort of romanticize previous eras as having better food or better nutrition. It's just not so.


I dont beleive you are correct. Nutrition is far worse today than in many previous generations. If you look at the super high rates of what are labled "Modern Diseases" they have soared off the charts. They are Heart Disease, Cancer, Diabetes and Obesity.

Please ask yourself the question, if a diet heavy in meat and saturated fats casues Heart Disease, why were the rates so low when people ate that way and why are they so high when we have scared people off such foods?  How does that add up?

As far as Grandpa goes, eating a meat based diet bought from A and P ( are they still in business?) is far better than eating a low fat diet. I also bet that the food choices of older generations included some organ meat like liver. Remember the advice to eat liver once per week? That sort of advice has been squashed lately but it will help keep you strong and healthy.

Would you like to bet grandpa was drinking full fat milk? There was a recent study I saw that said people who consume full fat dairy products have LESS heart disease than people who don't.

Low fat skim milk is called "Blue jack" by Dairymen. That is because in it's natural state it look Blue when the fat is removed. In order to get you to drink it, they add in powered milk. Condensed and powdered milk are suspected of greatly aggravating inflammation of the arteries, a core factor in Heart disease. So while you think you are consuming something Heart Healthy because it is low fat you are doing exactly the opposite.

The Dairy industry makes a super profit on Skim Milk. The fat they take off the milk can then be made into several other products including butter.

Grandpa also likely missed the recent explosion of High Fructose Corn Syrup ( Sugar) in absolutely everything we eat. When you remove the fat from food you lose flavor. Therefore, to make people willing to eat these products, they added sugar. It's sugar that is the culprit in Heart Disease, not fat.

Have you ever eaten a McDonald's hamburger without the Bun? It's really terrible, awful, disgusting.  But it's made palatable by the ultra sweet bun plus the ultra sweet condiments with onion flakes and sweeten pickles.

Here is a really great lecture by Robert Lustig M.D. "Sugar, the Bitter Truth"

It's a bit wonky and I needed to watch it in two sittings because it's long, but well worth your time

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM&feature=related
 

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #96 on: March 17, 2011, 10:46:10 AM »
I dont beleive you are correct. Nutrition is far worse today than in many previous generations.
Individual food choices may be worse, but we have the opportunity for far better nutrition than our ancestors ever dreamed of.

Quote
If you look at the super high rates of what are labled "Modern Diseases" they have soared off the charts. They are Heart Disease, Cancer, Diabetes and Obesity.
Replacing other nutrition-deficiency diseases, perhaps? such as pellagra.

Quote
Please ask yourself the question, if a diet heavy in meat and saturated fats casues Heart Disease, why were the rates so low when people ate that way and why are they so high when we have scared people off such foods?  How does that add up?
One factor could be that people actually did hard physical labor for many hours a day.

Quote
I also bet that the food choices of older generations included some organ meat like liver. Remember the advice to eat liver once per week? That sort of advice has been squashed lately but it will help keep you strong and healthy.
Ewww. Yes, it did. One of his favorite foods (which we once had to drive miles to the restaurant that served it) was something he called "liver nips." I never really inquired as to what it was. Another favorite food was souse meat (which was everything left over when a hog was butchered. All boiled up together.)

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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #97 on: March 17, 2011, 03:38:35 PM »
I dont beleive you are correct. Nutrition is far worse today than in many previous generations.
Individual food choices may be worse, but we have the opportunity for far better nutrition than our ancestors ever dreamed of.

Quote
If you look at the super high rates of what are labled "Modern Diseases" they have soared off the charts. They are Heart Disease, Cancer, Diabetes and Obesity.
Replacing other nutrition-deficiency diseases, perhaps? such as pellagra.

Quote
Please ask yourself the question, if a diet heavy in meat and saturated fats casues Heart Disease, why were the rates so low when people ate that way and why are they so high when we have scared people off such foods?  How does that add up?
One factor could be that people actually did hard physical labor for many hours a day.

Quote
I also bet that the food choices of older generations included some organ meat like liver. Remember the advice to eat liver once per week? That sort of advice has been squashed lately but it will help keep you strong and healthy.
Ewww. Yes, it did. One of his favorite foods (which we once had to drive miles to the restaurant that served it) was something he called "liver nips." I never really inquired as to what it was. Another favorite food was souse meat (which was everything left over when a hog was butchered. All boiled up together.)



Okay.. I personally cant see how you can come to that conclusion. We have replaced nutrient dense foods with food that has been denatured and shot up with sugar. Yes, people are better at getting vitamins and scurvy is a thing of the past, but people are far less robust. Heart Disease and Cancer and Diabetes are going through the population like a wild fire. Pellagra rates are indeed down... :) LOL.

Take beef for example. Since the advent of fast food, McDonalds and the other big chains have altered the way we raise beef. The supply demands of the Fast Food industry are so enormous that Factory raised beef is now the overwhelming norm. McDonalds wants each beef patti to taste exactly the same and have the same properties every place they sell them. Therefore, they have induced the Beef industry to use assembly line techniques to raising cattle. The result has been a tremendous diminution of  the nutritional value of the meat we eat.

Cattle are kept indoors most of their life, never once seeing a pasture or a single blade of grass, which is their natural food. Instead, they are kept in pens and prevented from moving too much so they fatten up quickly. They are fed grain, which destroy the nutritional value of the meat and throws out of whack the ratio of Omega 6 fats and Omega 3 fats. They have also been fed other cows. When a cow gets too sick to stand, they have been ground up and put back into the feed ( this practice came to light during the Mad Cow scare and many meat packers have backed off).

Finally, they are repeatedly shot up with Anti-Biotics, not due to infection but it was discovered that if you give a cow ant0biotics they fatten up faster.

This does not add up to good nutrition for Humans. Luckily people are starting to push back. Not only are consumers starting to want "Organic Meat", which means no Anti-Biotics but more important they are demanding grass fed beef which results in meat with normal and proper nutritional benefits for the people who eat it.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #98 on: March 17, 2011, 03:53:23 PM »
Okay.. I personally cant see how you can come to that conclusion. We have replaced nutrient dense foods with food that has been denatured and shot up with sugar.
We have also replaced unsafe and scarce food with generally safe and abundant food choices.
Quote
...Luckily people are starting to push back. Not only are consumers starting to want "Organic Meat", which means no Anti-Biotics but more important they are demanding grass fed beef which results in meat with normal and proper nutritional benefits for the people who eat it.
As you so rightly point out, we have choices now. My grandfather - not so much.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #99 on: March 17, 2011, 04:13:42 PM »
Okay.. I personally cant see how you can come to that conclusion. We have replaced nutrient dense foods with food that has been denatured and shot up with sugar.
We have also replaced unsafe and scarce food with generally safe and abundant food choices.
Quote
...Luckily people are starting to push back. Not only are consumers starting to want "Organic Meat", which means no Anti-Biotics but more important they are demanding grass fed beef which results in meat with normal and proper nutritional benefits for the people who eat it.
As you so rightly point out, we have choices now. My grandfather - not so much.

Actually not. We have the appearance of great variety but in Truth we are fast becoming a one crop nation, corn. If you look around a food store it appears like there are a tremendous variety of food choices. In fact nearly everything we eat is a variation of corn. It is either fed corn or has been cleverly manipulated to appear like it is something different. High Fructose Corn syrup is ubiquitous. The soy industry as gained foot hold, by tailing the low fat propaganda and miss representing it's health benefits. But that about it. Everything is  Corn Corn Corn Corn Corn Corn Corn.

So how did this happen? Actually, it started with a conscious decision by Richard Nixon. Food prices used to swing up and down and would have an effect on political elections. Nixon want to stabilize food prices so he ordered Earl Butz the Sec. of Agriculture to find a solution. He determined that what we grow best and most abundantly is corn. The government then deliberately promoted corn to the exclusion of all else. They demonized saturated fats making a huge market for Corn Syrup ( which also freed us from Sugar prices). When you take out fat, food tastes like crap, so they replaced the fat with High Fructose Corn Syrup.

There is a really great documentary I would recommend to you called "King Corn". here is the trailer;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pr5HQrgg9mM

  
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 04:14:46 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline GreekChef

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #100 on: March 17, 2011, 04:58:32 PM »
Okay.. I personally cant see how you can come to that conclusion. We have replaced nutrient dense foods with food that has been denatured and shot up with sugar. Yes, people are better at getting vitamins and scurvy is a thing of the past, but people are far less robust. Heart Disease and Cancer and Diabetes are going through the population like a wild fire. Pellagra rates are indeed down... :) LOL.
In my experience as a chef, and from what I remember of my culinary history courses, I would have to agree with KoD.  I think it's much more about the choices we make.  Cause let's face it, the fact that we can get pretty much every vegetable known to man at any time of the year we want (no matter where it's grown or what the season), means that there is far more available to us now than ever before.

I also think that KoD is correct that the other part of the problem nowadays (besides the bad choices we make nutritionally) is that people are so largely sedentary in comparison with our grandparents or great grandparents- who did a lot of manual labor (or at the very least didn't sit in front of a computer all day).

Quote
Take beef for example. Since the advent of fast food, McDonalds and the other big chains have altered the way we raise beef. The supply demands of the Fast Food industry are so enormous that Factory raised beef is now the overwhelming norm. McDonalds wants each beef patti to taste exactly the same and have the same properties every place they sell them. Therefore, they have induced the Beef industry to use assembly line techniques to raising cattle. The result has been a tremendous diminution of  the nutritional value of the meat we eat.

Cattle are kept indoors most of their life, never once seeing a pasture or a single blade of grass, which is their natural food. Instead, they are kept in pens and prevented from moving too much so they fatten up quickly. They are fed grain, which destroy the nutritional value of the meat and throws out of whack the ratio of Omega 6 fats and Omega 3 fats. They have also been fed other cows. When a cow gets too sick to stand, they have been ground up and put back into the feed ( this practice came to light during the Mad Cow scare and many meat packers have backed off).

Finally, they are repeatedly shot up with Anti-Biotics, not due to infection but it was discovered that if you give a cow ant0biotics they fatten up faster.
This is unfortunately true (and quite disgusting).  However, even as it is true, it doesn't negate the fact that meat is now readily available at any time, which was not the case in the past.  In past generations, they had to carefully ration and preserve what little proteins they had-- this is how sushi came about, and pickling, and so many other techniques that we take for granted now and use/eat just because we enjoy them.  Now, those techniques are unneccesary, because all one has to do is go to the grocery store and get something fresh.

Quote
This does not add up to good nutrition for Humans.
It doesn't add up to perfect nutrition, you are correct.  It's not as good as growing something in your own garden or raising your own chickens.  But now we have available to us more than just what we are able to grow ourselves.  That's the point we're trying to make.

Quote
Luckily people are starting to push back. Not only are consumers starting to want "Organic Meat", which means no Anti-Biotics but more important they are demanding grass fed beef which results in meat with normal and proper nutritional benefits for the people who eat it.
Unfortunately, though, because the government's requirements are so lax, the term "organic" is little more than a marketing tool.  The amount of any product that the government requires to actually BE organic in order to be allowed to use the term "organic" in their marketing is very little.  The best advice I would give as a chef is to shop for locally grown foods at places like a farmer's market (we have an INCREDIBLE one near us), and then to try and familiarize oneself with the growers and suppliers so that we really know what we're eating.
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Offline GreekChef

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #101 on: March 17, 2011, 05:03:57 PM »

Actually not. We have the appearance of great variety but in Truth we are fast becoming a one crop nation, corn. If you look around a food store it appears like there are a tremendous variety of food choices. In fact nearly everything we eat is a variation of corn. It is either fed corn or has been cleverly manipulated to appear like it is something different.
But what you are referring to here are animals which are fed corn and pre-packaged foods.  If one eats a well balanced diet of fresh vegetables (obviously not all of which are corn) and grains and a few starches and dairy and meats, then really all that is affected are the dairy and meats.  And all of this can be avoided by shopping at a good farmer's market.

Quote
High Fructose Corn syrup is ubiquitous.
It is abundant, and is okay when consumed in small amounts.  I don't know that I'd go so far as to say it's ubiquitous.


Quote
There is a really great documentary I would recommend to you called "King Corn". here is the trailer;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pr5HQrgg9mM
  
I look forward to watching it when I get a minute!
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Matthew 18:5

Offline JimCBrooklyn

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #102 on: March 17, 2011, 07:17:30 PM »
Quote from: GreekChef link=topic=33944.msg545185#msg545185
Unfortunately, though, because the government's requirements are so lax, the term "organic" is little more than a marketing tool.  The amount of any product that the government requires to actually BE organic in order to be allowed to use the term "organic" in their marketing is very little.  The best advice I would give as a chef is to shop for locally grown foods at places like a farmer's market (we have an INCREDIBLE one near us), and then to try and familiarize oneself with the growers and suppliers so that we really know what we're eating.

For what it's worth, I think this idea is a bit overplayed; my father is an organic farmer, among other things, and the amount of hoops and regulations one has to jump through, and constant inspection one is subject to in order to be certified are many. Things labeled "natural" have no meaning at all, but if it is labeled 100% organic i tend to trust it, though marc is right on on the grassfed tip.

Go fat go!

I certainly echo the farmer's market idea, though I think you're right that it's REALLY important to know about the actual farms, because any old local farm can advertise being "local" and put up a tent and a rustic-looking wooden sign with a piece of corn and a tomato painted on it. Plenty of these places have poor practices nonetheless.

« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 07:19:56 PM by JimCBrooklyn »
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #103 on: March 18, 2011, 09:44:03 AM »
And let me be clear - I'm certainly not advocating the infamous practices of Big Ag and Big Fast Food. I'm saying that, 1) in this country, at this time, we have an abundance of healthy food choices available to us (as well as unhealthy) and 2) earlier eras were not some paradise of abundant healthier food.
There's a reason why the father of a Greek priest I know comes barely up to my shoulder (and I'm not that tall.) Any food was in short supply when he was growing up, much less healthy, nutritious food.
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Offline stewie

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #104 on: March 18, 2011, 12:25:44 PM »
Forgive me if I am out of line here but I don't think we should get so wrapped up in the legality of the fast.  If I pig out on lobster and drink nothing but soy lattes from Starbucks I am keeping the letter of the law but probably not the spirit of what the fast is trying to accomplish.

I think that the key to a successful fast isn't checking lists of ingredients or worrying about meat and dairy substitutes.  Do what you have to do in order to be able to approach the chalice with fear and humility. 

Many of us (myself included) will find it impossible to keep a full fast throughout Lent.  That is a small sin compared to the multitude of other sins we commit throughout the year and continue throughout Lent.  We probably shouldn't be so obsessed about how to classify a "soy dog" or whether there's any olive oil in our vegetables, and should worry more about the accumulation of other sins that soil our hearts, minds, and spirits, and which are much more difficult to control. 

Forgive me, but it's pizza day at the office and I'm trying to distract myself.  This peanut butter sandwich is delicious.
 :P

Offline IsmiLiora

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #105 on: March 18, 2011, 12:47:01 PM »
Forgive me if I am out of line here but I don't think we should get so wrapped up in the legality of the fast.  If I pig out on lobster and drink nothing but soy lattes from Starbucks I am keeping the letter of the law but probably not the spirit of what the fast is trying to accomplish.

I think that the key to a successful fast isn't checking lists of ingredients or worrying about meat and dairy substitutes.  Do what you have to do in order to be able to approach the chalice with fear and humility. 

Many of us (myself included) will find it impossible to keep a full fast throughout Lent.  That is a small sin compared to the multitude of other sins we commit throughout the year and continue throughout Lent.  We probably shouldn't be so obsessed about how to classify a "soy dog" or whether there's any olive oil in our vegetables, and should worry more about the accumulation of other sins that soil our hearts, minds, and spirits, and which are much more difficult to control. 

Forgive me, but it's pizza day at the office and I'm trying to distract myself.  This peanut butter sandwich is delicious.
 :P
Have you ever considered ordering a cheeseless pizza? I'm lactose intolerant and it can hit the spot, provided you know of a place with a great crust and delicious sauce. Just load it with veggies! (I know it isn't quite the same but believe me, it does hit the spot.) Some places will give you the side-eye, but they do oblige and leave the cheese out of the pizza.

But peanut butter is awesome anyway, so enjoy.  :D

I agree with what you said, though. Just recently, I went out to a seafood buffet and I probably ate 3 different shrimp dishes. I spent the entire afternoon on the couch, drinking tea and whining about what I just did. While I followed the letter of the law to a tee, I realized that I hadn't followed the spirit of it at all. It would have been better for me to eat a piece of steak than eat all of that. I learned my lesson that day!
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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #106 on: March 18, 2011, 03:20:44 PM »
Just a little food for thought about fasting.

The church fathers seem to focus on the fact that the purpose of the fast is to bring us back to obedience when weighed against the disobedience of Adam and Eve who fell by what they did eat.

The fathers also talk a great deal about the ruling and controling of one's passions---gluttony is one of those passions some of us have problems with and thus should be part of a focus of our fast if gluttony is one of our issues.

The church fathers seem likewise to remind us that we must add prayer and almsgiving to the fasts to validate the fast or else the fast has no power for us during Great Lent. Spending a fortune on any food at this time  would be counter indicative during the fast. One must remember however that prices are not the same around the country---shrimp along the Texas Gulf coast is often cheaper in quantity than a single pound of beef is for the number it can feed  likewise in the cattle areas of Texas one can get 2-3 pounds of beef for what a pound of shrimp costs that has been shipped in from the coast.

Many of the  "exceptions to the fast": clams, oysters, shrimp, jellyfish, horseshoe carb, octopus, squid, crab, and even lobster were the food of the poor in the mediteranean shore. These foods joined the food of the poor in the interior, ;and locked areas that included grains, vegetables, and legumes the other food for the poor. What the church fathers did was curb the diet of the wealthy and those who could afford to buy the meat, poultry, and fish so they could learn to control their passions and give alms to the poor. To the middleclass and working poor, eggs and dairy which often made up a majority of their diet were also included enabling them to partake of the blessings of giving alms to the poor and learning to control their passion. To the poor was given the blessing of learning to accept prayerfully and gratefully the alms from those who could offer alms of food and money---here they learned the controlling of their passions of pride and anger while learning the  power of intercessory prayer for those who gave them alms.

Just a little food for thought about fasting. ;)

Thomas
Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #107 on: March 18, 2011, 04:08:09 PM »
And let me be clear - I'm certainly not advocating the infamous practices of Big Ag and Big Fast Food. I'm saying that, 1) in this country, at this time, we have an abundance of healthy food choices available to us (as well as unhealthy) and 2) earlier eras were not some paradise of abundant healthier food.
There's a reason why the father of a Greek priest I know comes barely up to my shoulder (and I'm not that tall.) Any food was in short supply when he was growing up, much less healthy, nutritious food.


What I am trying to say is that the standard western diet, in the main, is the root cause of our deteriorating health. The choices being given us by the establishment are in fact the opposite of what we should be doing. It is driven by profits and not by nutrition. What passes for good choices is propaganda driven and it is killing people.

Lack of exercise is not the cause. There is no doubt that exercise, even moderate or slight exercise has tremendous benefits. They are being rendered moot by our lack of a natural diet.

For example, do you really think Americans exercised more in the 1950's and 1960's ?Of course not. There was no such thing as going to a gym or jogging every day. Yet, the rate of Heart Disease and Diabetes etc. was far lower back then. Even though exercise has dramatically increased in popularity we have far more heart disease now, not less. It's our diet !

There is the famous case of Jim Fixx the marathon runner. Thin as a rail. dropped dead of a heart attack while jogging.

And how about all that imported food in winter? That's fine as far as it goes. It's fun to eat mango in the dead of winter. It has nothing to do with reversing the primary nutritional problems we are having and truth be known, eating fruit and vegetables that are not local and are wildly out of season may actually have some deleterious effects on you.

More important, have you ever eaten a tomatoe imported from Chile or some such place out of season? Does it taste anything resembling a local home grown tomatoe in season? Not close, right? How come? if it is in season and flown in, it should taste sweet and juicy and good.

The reason is that these things are barely tomatoes. They are harvested very green and then warehoused for a long while and then gassed to make them appear red. You would not buy them otherwise. They are devitalized. Little to no vitamin C and lord knows what else is wrong with them. They taste like a potato.

So in the main, we are eating denatured, devitalized food that is causing hugh numbers of people to get very sick eventually. It is not like eating a poison apple where you drop over in a minute or two, it is far more insidious but in the end you suffer.

Yes, you do have a choice. You can eat locally grown or raised produce and meat. Grass fed beef, naturally fed chicken and eggs and whole fat unprocessed milk and butter. You will be healthier and you will cast a vote against big Agribusiness, help stop animal cruelty and be on the side of the small farmer.

www.westonaprice.org  
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 04:15:08 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline LBK

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #108 on: March 18, 2011, 05:24:56 PM »
Quote
There is the famous case of Jim Fixx the marathon runner. Thin as a rail. dropped dead of a heart attack while jogging.

Jim Fixx was an overweight, heavy smoker before he turned to jogging, and he wasn't exactly in his teens when he changed his "lifestyle". The chances of an atherosclerotic plaque fragment dislodging and blocking a coronary artery resulting in death during vigorous exercise in someone with his history is nothing unusual.

Try again.  ;)

Quote
For example, do you really think Americans exercised more in the 1950's and 1960's ?Of course not. There was no such thing as going to a gym or jogging every day.

Oh yes there was, only it wasn't marketed in the glamorous way it's been since the 1980s. People also played sport, kids kicked or played ball in the streets or parks, folks moved more as part of their daily life.

Try again.  ;)
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #109 on: March 19, 2011, 10:02:10 AM »
Quote
There is the famous case of Jim Fixx the marathon runner. Thin as a rail. dropped dead of a heart attack while jogging.

Jim Fixx was an overweight, heavy smoker before he turned to jogging, and he wasn't exactly in his teens when he changed his "lifestyle". The chances of an atherosclerotic plaque fragment dislodging and blocking a coronary artery resulting in death during vigorous exercise in someone with his history is nothing unusual.

Try again.  ;)

Quote
For example, do you really think Americans exercised more in the 1950's and 1960's ?Of course not. There was no such thing as going to a gym or jogging every day.

Oh yes there was, only it wasn't marketed in the glamorous way it's been since the 1980s. People also played sport, kids kicked or played ball in the streets or parks, folks moved more as part of their daily life.

Try again.  ;)

This is not hard to understand. Americans began an exercise craze in the 1970's and eighties. if you dont beleive that is true or that the level of exercise didnt really increase then I will leave you to that opinion.

The indisputable fact is that Heart Disease and Diabetes and Obesity rates have gone way up. So even if you are correct that exercise has not increased, you would need to show that it has markedly decreased to have it account for these increased rates. Otherwise, it's our ever degenerating diet, especially the temendous increase in sugar intake ( high Fructose Corn Syrup ) and other factors I have mentioned that are far more likely the culprit.

As I said, exercise is very important and it certainly helps. Obviously not enough to stem the tide.   
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #110 on: March 19, 2011, 11:41:32 AM »
As far as Jim Fixx the marathon runner goes, we have at least established that intense exercise and dropping all excess weight was not enough in his case to save him from a  fatal heart attack. The question then becomes, is that the outermost boundray of what exercise can and cant overcome.

I am of course speculating but what would you like to bet that Mr. Fixx was also following the standard "Healthy" diet foisted upon us by the establishment? I would bet he was eating low fat foods, skim milk, no or little  saturated fat, little to no meat.

And let's also wonder if he would have died if he had a WAPF or Paleo type Diet that would have addressed the underlying cause of Heart Disease, namely atrial inflammation. What if he knew to take a high dose of Omega 3, like found in fish oil. Perhaps his heart problems would have calmed down, the inflammation lessened and therefore no clogging and perhaps no heart attack even though he had very bad habits before he became an Athlete.  

Here is an interesting article ( must download it as a pdf):

Achieving Hunter-gatherer Fitness in the 21st Century:
Back to the Future

James H. O’Keefe, MD,a Robert Vogel, MD,b Carl J. Lavie, MD,c Loren Cordain, PhDd
aMid America Heart Institute/University of Missouri-Kansas City, Kansas City; bUniversity of Maryland, College Park; cOchsner
Clinic, Jefferson, La; dColorado State University, Fort Collins.

click here and then go to the bottom right corner to download:  www.thepaleodiet.com
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 11:52:26 AM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline JimCBrooklyn

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #111 on: March 19, 2011, 12:14:20 PM »
As far as Jim Fixx the marathon runner goes, we have at least established that intense exercise and dropping all excess weight was not enough in his case to save him from a  fatal heart attack. The question then becomes, is that the outermost boundray of what exercise can and cant overcome.

I am of course speculating but what would you like to bet that Mr. Fixx was also following the standard "Healthy" diet foisted upon us by the establishment? I would bet he was eating low fat foods, skim milk, no or little  saturated fat, little to no meat.

And let's also wonder if he would have died if he had a WAPF or Paleo type Diet that would have addressed the underlying cause of Heart Disease, namely atrial inflammation. What if he knew to take a high dose of Omega 3, like found in fish oil. Perhaps his heart problems would have calmed down, the inflammation lessened and therefore no clogging and perhaps no heart attack even though he had very bad habits before he became an Athlete.  

Here is an interesting article ( must download it as a pdf):

Achieving Hunter-gatherer Fitness in the 21st Century:
Back to the Future

James H. O’Keefe, MD,a Robert Vogel, MD,b Carl J. Lavie, MD,c Loren Cordain, PhDd
aMid America Heart Institute/University of Missouri-Kansas City, Kansas City; bUniversity of Maryland, College Park; cOchsner
Clinic, Jefferson, La; dColorado State University, Fort Collins.

click here and then go to the bottom right corner to download:  www.thepaleodiet.com
I'm on board with you all the way.

Like I've said before, I grew up playing sports and eating a typical modern western diet, then I got married and injured, and got out of shape. At age 23 my cholesterol was dangerous for my age, my protein/test levels were way off, and I was experiencing migraines, indigestion, and low energy all over the place, things I had had, albeit to a lesser extent, even when younger and more active.
Without adopting any workout regimen whatsoever save the occasional summertime swim, I, under the guidance of my nutritionist, (who has worked with my family with great results for 20 years now and I finally agreed to see at 23 after finding this stuff out) totally eliminated gluten, and slowly got more and more paleo, allowing some grass-fed dairy and organic sprouted grains. I lost 60 lbs in 6 months, eliminated the aforementioned problems, including totally normalizing my cholesterol, proteins, test, etc. and was able to go back to training and athletics at a high level again after that. I'm 26 now, still eat this way, have none of those problems still, workout 6 of 8 days high intensity for short intervals, play hockey and play and coach baseball, bench, squat, deadlift 3 times what I could a year ago, and still have energy for my 2 small kids. I really don't need to read any studies in any direction anymore. I have enough proof for myself.
It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.
-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware

Offline Indocern

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Re: Fasting Tips?
« Reply #112 on: May 17, 2016, 03:04:37 PM »
Discussed the upcoming масленица, and then Great Lent, today with my priest; as a catechumen, with an Orthodox (but pregnant and therefore not required to fast) wife and 2 small children who also do not need to fast, he asked that I mostly fast during Great Lent. I think we'll get more into the specifics of this as the time actually comes, but I'm curious, as someone who has only fasted in a Roman Catholic context (no meat on Fridays during Lent, fish ok, eat a smaller breakfast and lunch a couple of days a year), and also done some intermittent fasting for athletic training, what kind of things should I look out for? FYI, my diet is almost entirely based around lean meats and fish, generally...

Is there anything that is initially more difficult? Any prayers that are helpful? Any particular approaches that have helped you guys?

I'm concerned about being prideful about it, and I do not want to do this, but as I said, I'm an athlete with a meat-based diet, so the whole thing, while I'm excited about it and 100% in, seems rather daunting.

I guess I'm just asking for some newbie pointers!

In Christ,
Jim

The fasting and the prayer are in the source of the Christian life.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 03:06:55 PM by Indocern »