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Author Topic: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?  (Read 12571 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« Reply #180 on: March 22, 2011, 09:50:29 PM »

According to the definition-as much as there is one-of ex cathedra, the CCC should fit the bill. But alas! I've been told that its is not a magisterial document and not infallible, so I don't know how much citing the CCC is going to help (although you haven't personally stated what your stand of the theological certitude of the CCC is). Even if it is infallible, it doesn't say much as to history, which is what Luberti brought up: if it had, it wouldn't fall within faith and morals, possibly mooting what it had to say anyway.
Personally, I am quite convinced that the CCC is not ex cathedra, since it fulfills 2, at most, of the 3 conditions for an ex cathedra statement:
1. Is it on faith and morals? Yes.
2. Was the Pope acting in "his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority"? I really couldn't say whether he was or wasn't.
Do tell your friends. We've had some argument from them on this point:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30177.0.html

I visited that thread, but I still don't know what you're referring to. Did someone over there say that the CCC is ex cathedra?
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« Reply #181 on: March 23, 2011, 12:45:33 AM »

According to the definition-as much as there is one-of ex cathedra, the CCC should fit the bill. But alas! I've been told that its is not a magisterial document and not infallible, so I don't know how much citing the CCC is going to help (although you haven't personally stated what your stand of the theological certitude of the CCC is). Even if it is infallible, it doesn't say much as to history, which is what Luberti brought up: if it had, it wouldn't fall within faith and morals, possibly mooting what it had to say anyway.
Personally, I am quite convinced that the CCC is not ex cathedra, since it fulfills 2, at most, of the 3 conditions for an ex cathedra statement:
1. Is it on faith and morals? Yes.
2. Was the Pope acting in "his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority"? I really couldn't say whether he was or wasn't.
Do tell your friends. We've had some argument from them on this point:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30177.0.html

I visited that thread, but I still don't know what you're referring to. Did someone over there say that the CCC is ex cathedra?

LOL.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_15081997_laetamur_en.html
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« Reply #182 on: March 23, 2011, 02:31:03 AM »


I visited that thread, but I still don't know what you're referring to. Did someone over there say that the CCC is ex cathedra?

Oh, for goodness' sake, Peter J: Is not the the content of the CCC what all Roman Catholics should affirm? Is this not the document that those who wish to enter the RCC have to absorb and abide by? If they don't, i.e. if the CCC is "optional", does this not make a mockery of what the RCC expects of its prospective entrants?  Whether it's ex cathedra or not kinda misses the point, dontcha think??
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« Reply #183 on: March 23, 2011, 02:37:26 AM »


I visited that thread, but I still don't know what you're referring to. Did someone over there say that the CCC is ex cathedra?

Oh, for goodness' sake, Peter J: Is not the the content of the CCC what all Roman Catholics should affirm? Is this not the document that those who wish to enter the RCC have to absorb and abide by? If they don't, i.e. if the CCC is "optional", does this not make a mockery of what the RCC expects of its prospective entrants?  Whether it's ex cathedra or not kinda misses the point, dontcha think??
It is also odd that we have had posters here, and I've heard it from followers of the Vatican everywhere, that one of the decifiencies we Orthodox have (and I guess the supreme pontiff is supposed to solve) is that we lack a catechism.

It is odd for us to say if the CCC is ex cathedra, as we know it is in error on a number of points, and we know that if it was ex cathedra that wouldn't make it infallible.  It is like asking which is the true Protestant church or which form of Islam is correct. None of the above.  So it is rather hard to say that the CCC fulfills nonexistent criteria that the best scholastic minds of the Vatican can't figure out: otherwise we would know if Humanae Vitae was infallible or have an official list of all the ex cathedra pronouncements.  but that would tarnish the aura Paster Aeternus inflates.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 02:45:44 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #184 on: March 23, 2011, 02:53:55 AM »

So it is rather hard to say that the CCC fulfills nonexistent criteria that the best scholastic minds of the Vatican can't figure out: otherwise we would know if Humanae Vitae was infallible or have an official list of all the ex cathedra pronouncements.  but that would tarnish the aura Paster Aeternus inflates.

Cachinno!
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« Reply #185 on: March 23, 2011, 03:45:14 AM »

I wondered about that too, but I don't think jordanz meant to imply that all Catholics fit in those 3 "tidy boxes".

Quite right.  These classifications aren't "tidy boxes" but rather very vague ideological (or an-ideological) ranges.

For example: within the "traditional Catholic liturgical right" there are many shades of conviction, from those who would be content with celebrating the Novus Ordo ad orientem, with some Tridentine ceremonial, and some Latin, all the way to crypto-sedevacantists who will disparage Paul VI at any turn and question the validity of Pius XII's reformed Holy Week.  Even within the "apathetic" camp there are those who lean to the "left" or "right", but often have other pressing pastoral concerns which mitigate a sharp focus on liturgical concerns.  At the same time, all of these sentiments can overlap depending on circumstance and individual issues.

Even in my "home" parish in the United States, the pastor and priests have made concessions to their sincere liturgical convictions.  They offer at least one Mass on Sunday versus populum and with a lone layperson to minister a consecrated chalice (most parishioners beeline to the altar rail anyway).  I strongly suspect that the clergy of the parish would prefer to not make any accommodation to lay ministers and Mass celebrated facing the people, but I also suspect that the bishop has requested that at least one Mass feature these innovations.  The malleability of these ideological categories is also contingent on external pressures. 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 03:47:50 AM by jordanz » Logged
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« Reply #186 on: March 23, 2011, 10:07:45 AM »

The differences between "conservatives" and "traditionalists" are nearly invisible to those outside the Church, but for those in the latter camp this is a significant difference. There is some degree of overlap (not all traditionalists worship in SSPX chapels). But traditionalists would be more likely assent to "roll back Vatican II and the Novus Ordo mass" rathern than "reform the reform". "traditionalists" would be more focused on the liturgy than "conservatives." At the end of the day, it's your stance toward Vatican II that marks the difference.

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/vatican2/deftrd.htm

This was an interesting paragraph:

Quote
Traditionalists believe the Second Vatican Council to be harmful to the Church. As with criticisms of the Pope, this does not represent a denial of the Church's indefectibility. Just because an ecumenical council is called, does not guarantee it will succeed or be good for the Church.

"It is entirely possible that an ecumenical council can simply fail in its stated goal. The fifteenth-century Council of Ferrara-Florence failed to bring about a lasting reconciliation with the Orthodox. The Second Council of Constantinople, held during the 550s, seems only to have confused people further about the controversy surrounding Monophysitism. For that reason, St. Isidore of Seville believed that the Church would have been better off had it never been called." 9
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 10:10:49 AM by John Larocque » Logged
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« Reply #187 on: March 23, 2011, 10:52:18 AM »

I wondered about that too, but I don't think jordanz meant to imply that all Catholics fit in those 3 "tidy boxes".

Quite right.  These classifications aren't "tidy boxes" but rather very vague ideological (or an-ideological) ranges.

For example: within the "traditional Catholic liturgical right" there are many shades of conviction, from those who would be content with celebrating the Novus Ordo ad orientem, with some Tridentine ceremonial, and some Latin, all the way to crypto-sedevacantists who will disparage Paul VI at any turn and question the validity of Pius XII's reformed Holy Week.  Even within the "apathetic" camp there are those who lean to the "left" or "right", but often have other pressing pastoral concerns which mitigate a sharp focus on liturgical concerns.  At the same time, all of these sentiments can overlap depending on circumstance and individual issues.

Even in my "home" parish in the United States, the pastor and priests have made concessions to their sincere liturgical convictions.  They offer at least one Mass on Sunday versus populum and with a lone layperson to minister a consecrated chalice (most parishioners beeline to the altar rail anyway).  I strongly suspect that the clergy of the parish would prefer to not make any accommodation to lay ministers and Mass celebrated facing the people, but I also suspect that the bishop has requested that at least one Mass feature these innovations.  The malleability of these ideological categories is also contingent on external pressures. 

I don't really care about your abstract categories.  What I am saying is that you've entirely missed very REAL categories that may include some of the characteristics that you posit, but you have offered a less than real image of your Church and I am wondering why.
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« Reply #188 on: March 23, 2011, 10:58:30 AM »

I don't really care about your abstract categories.

Pretty much my sentiment about most RC "theology" in a single sentence.

The RCs on the ground are often divorced from the "thinkers" and ivory towers.

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« Reply #189 on: March 23, 2011, 11:02:23 AM »

I don't really care about your abstract categories.

Pretty much my sentiment about most RC "theology" in a single sentence.

The RCs on the ground are often divorced from the "thinkers" and ivory towers.

Don't you mean "annuled"? Tongue
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« Reply #190 on: March 23, 2011, 11:03:34 AM »

I don't really care about your abstract categories.

Pretty much my sentiment about most RC "theology" in a single sentence.

The RCs on the ground are often divorced from the "thinkers" and ivory towers.

Don't you mean "annuled"? Tongue

I set 'em up, you knock 'em down. Was hoping for someone to run with it.
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« Reply #191 on: March 23, 2011, 11:31:27 AM »

I don't really care about your abstract categories.

Pretty much my sentiment about most RC "theology" in a single sentence.

The RCs on the ground are often divorced from the "thinkers" and ivory towers.

I am sorry that you have that perception of my theology.  I take a great deal from our saints and doctors and some of our theological writers during the 20th century.  I wish your experiences had been better.

I have had some terrible experiences with Orthodox teachers and believers but I try not to let that taint my perception of the faith as a whole.
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« Reply #192 on: March 23, 2011, 11:48:59 AM »


I visited that thread, but I still don't know what you're referring to. Did someone over there say that the CCC is ex cathedra?

Oh, for goodness' sake, Peter J: Is not the the content of the CCC what all Roman Catholics should affirm? Is this not the document that those who wish to enter the RCC have to absorb and abide by? If they don't, i.e. if the CCC is "optional", does this not make a mockery of what the RCC expects of its prospective entrants?  Whether it's ex cathedra or not kinda misses the point, dontcha think??

Hi LBK.

Question: have you considered switching to decaf?

But on a side note, the poster who asked whether the CCC is ex cathedra is named "ialmisry". (I think he would view it as an insult to be called "Peter J".) "Peter J" was the poster who answered ialmisry.
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« Reply #193 on: March 23, 2011, 11:52:12 AM »

According to the definition-as much as there is one-of ex cathedra, the CCC should fit the bill. But alas! I've been told that its is not a magisterial document and not infallible, so I don't know how much citing the CCC is going to help (although you haven't personally stated what your stand of the theological certitude of the CCC is). Even if it is infallible, it doesn't say much as to history, which is what Luberti brought up: if it had, it wouldn't fall within faith and morals, possibly mooting what it had to say anyway.
Personally, I am quite convinced that the CCC is not ex cathedra, since it fulfills 2, at most, of the 3 conditions for an ex cathedra statement:
1. Is it on faith and morals? Yes.
2. Was the Pope acting in "his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority"? I really couldn't say whether he was or wasn't.
Do tell your friends. We've had some argument from them on this point:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30177.0.html

I visited that thread, but I still don't know what you're referring to. Did someone over there say that the CCC is ex cathedra?

LOL.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_15081997_laetamur_en.html

I'm not too sure what to make of that. Possibility it's just a flat-out non sequitor.

Or maybe you meant it more like, "LOL, the joke's on you. You wasted a bunch of time looking at a thread just because I pointed you to it. Now let's see if you'll read the apostolic letter Laetamur Magnopere just because I posted a link to it."

If that's your meaning, then alright, 10 points for you, you did play me like a pipe.
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« Reply #194 on: March 23, 2011, 11:59:59 AM »

Whether it's ex cathedra or not kinda misses the point, dontcha think??

That's a very good point. I don't really have time right now to do justice to it, but I'll try to later.
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« Reply #195 on: April 09, 2011, 06:21:51 PM »

Could you look at this forum please. I found here general idea that for Novus Ordo mass each "each bishop's conference is allowed to make changes that reflects the cultural norms of their area, which opens it up for the freedom to "abuse" with such things as the infamous "clown Mass"". Could you point me to some vatican documents that points to this rule?

Thank you in advance
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« Reply #196 on: April 09, 2011, 06:38:58 PM »

According to the definition-as much as there is one-of ex cathedra, the CCC should fit the bill. But alas! I've been told that its is not a magisterial document and not infallible, so I don't know how much citing the CCC is going to help (although you haven't personally stated what your stand of the theological certitude of the CCC is). Even if it is infallible, it doesn't say much as to history, which is what Luberti brought up: if it had, it wouldn't fall within faith and morals, possibly mooting what it had to say anyway.
Personally, I am quite convinced that the CCC is not ex cathedra, since it fulfills 2, at most, of the 3 conditions for an ex cathedra statement:
1. Is it on faith and morals? Yes.
2. Was the Pope acting in "his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority"? I really couldn't say whether he was or wasn't.
Do tell your friends. We've had some argument from them on this point:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30177.0.html

I visited that thread, but I still don't know what you're referring to. Did someone over there say that the CCC is ex cathedra?

LOL.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_15081997_laetamur_en.html

I'm not too sure what to make of that. Possibility it's just a flat-out non sequitor.

Or maybe you meant it more like, "LOL, the joke's on you. You wasted a bunch of time looking at a thread just because I pointed you to it. Now let's see if you'll read the apostolic letter Laetamur Magnopere just because I posted a link to it."

If that's your meaning, then alright, 10 points for you, you did play me like a pipe.
Or maybe your supreme pontiff in Laetamur Magnopere fulfills the requirements of Pastor Aeternus, and was sayng that he was speaking ex cathedra in the CCC.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 06:40:32 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #197 on: April 10, 2011, 09:10:51 AM »

Could you look at this forum please. I found here general idea that for Novus Ordo mass each "each bishop's conference is allowed to make changes that reflects the cultural norms of their area, which opens it up for the freedom to "abuse" with such things as the infamous "clown Mass"".

Hi ativan. As I read the above, the question that came to my mind is "Can you/they provide any support for this claim?"

... Then I realized that you asked the same in the next line:

Could you point me to some vatican documents that points to this rule?

Thank you in advance

Great minds think alike, eh?  Cool
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« Reply #198 on: April 13, 2011, 01:21:06 AM »

Could you look at this forum please. I found here general idea that for Novus Ordo mass each "each bishop's conference is allowed to make changes that reflects the cultural norms of their area, which opens it up for the freedom to "abuse" with such things as the infamous "clown Mass"".

Hi ativan. As I read the above, the question that came to my mind is "Can you/they provide any support for this claim?"

... Then I realized that you asked the same in the next line:

Could you point me to some vatican documents that points to this rule?

Thank you in advance

Great minds think alike, eh?  Cool
Hi to you too Peter

I found a link from etwn.com about this. Here's the link. It is an excerpt from The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy Sacrosanctum Concilium which basically starts with who can regulate the NO liturgy and what type of changes are allowed. Would you say that the content of this excerpt does provide for "each bishop's conference to be allowed to make changes that reflects the cultural norms of their area, which opens it up for the freedom to "abuse" with such things as the infamous "clown Mass""

To me it seems that it does. But I don't want to make that claim. I'd rather here from a Catholic and from the one who knows much more on this.

God bless
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« Reply #199 on: April 26, 2011, 05:16:53 AM »

So I hear there are to be some changes made with the Catholic liturgy, something about using more majestic language. Is this to be universally applied? What other changes are in the works?
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« Reply #200 on: April 27, 2011, 04:42:56 PM »

So I hear there are to be some changes made with the Catholic liturgy, something about using more majestic language. Is this to be universally applied? What other changes are in the works?

They did an accurate translation of the Missal of Paul VI and it is replacing the crappy translation that hippies did in the 1960's.

It only applies to English speaking countries.
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« Reply #201 on: April 27, 2011, 05:10:57 PM »

So I hear there are to be some changes made with the Catholic liturgy, something about using more majestic language. Is this to be universally applied? What other changes are in the works?

They did an accurate translation of the Missal of Paul VI and it is replacing the crappy translation that hippies did in the 1960's.

It only applies to English speaking countries.

You might recall that you are talking about an approved and received liturgy of the Catholic Church and that the "hippies" were bishops whether or not you like what they did with the language.

Perhaps it is best that they have moved off the liturgical stage but for more than two generations their liturgy fed far more people than it alienated.
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« Reply #202 on: April 27, 2011, 06:43:20 PM »

[...] their liturgy [...]

Forgive me, but I thought this was telling.
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« Reply #203 on: April 27, 2011, 06:46:42 PM »

[...] their liturgy [...]

Forgive me, but I thought this was telling.

I was echoing the idea that it was a group of hippies who gave us the Novus Ordo.

But no matter what your opinion of it, or my own, it is the normative liturgy of the Roman rite.
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« Reply #204 on: April 27, 2011, 09:43:54 PM »

The Los Angeles Religious Education Congress liturgies, which are sponsored by the Archdiocese, are always painful to watch, but here is a link for those who want to see what they are like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL9tmkBS9K0
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« Reply #205 on: April 27, 2011, 10:10:38 PM »



More people are picking this off the shelves instead of the processed sh-t. Slow but steady and inexorable improvement.
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« Reply #206 on: April 27, 2011, 10:48:42 PM »



Oh my!
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