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Author Topic: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?  (Read 12259 times) Average Rating: 0
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WUnland
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« Reply #90 on: February 25, 2011, 05:27:43 AM »

Oh, I forgot to add,

I am commenting ONLY on the US Church from which the OP's video references originated.  The Latin Church is in the VERY difficult position of having to try to fit the needs of 100' s of different cultures, perhaps 1000's. Liturgical dancing may in fact be a GOOD and PIOUS expression in an African culture or South Pacific Nation.  I cannot say it would never fit within the liturgy ANYWHERE, but in the USA it is vulgar.

Same goes with guitars. They may actually fit in some Spanish or South American country but in the USA, in an Anglo parish, they are vulgar.

I know it is easy to laugh at the direction some in my Church have swerved but please consider: The Orthodox Patriarchies have remained basically mono-cultural.  Sure there are members in limited numbers from other than the majority ethnicity, but for the most part each Orthodox branch is made up of people from the same culture.  That has preserved tradition and is NOT a bad thing to my mind.  However, should the Orthodox Churches ever really reach out to the rest of the world in a meaningful way they may find themselves with members who want to veer off in weird directions too.  Would the Orthodox tell their New Guinea converts they could not dance?

Perhaps this perspective needs to be considered when looking at Latin rite abuses as well. The liturgy here in Japan, when translated into English is just watered down dribble to me, but I understand that the people here have no word in their language for "sin", nor any concept of "salvation" or even "resurrection", so the Church has tried to put forth the Gospel and liturgy as they think it easiest for the people to understand.  Every country's Roman rite Bishopric does the same.  Luckily the Orthodox, with small exception, doesn't have to contend with this.  

I am adding this because some liturgy that might be an abuse in the USA may not be in Japan or Nigeria.  In the USA the abuse grows from arrogance and selfishness, as well as a rich celebrity/entertainment worshiping culture that demands to be entertained.  In other places in the world what some would call abuses are actually cultural accommodation.  The message must meet those it is intended for.

The Apostles understood this, that is why we have four, not one Gospel.  One is written in a Jewish perspective, one a Greek, another a Gentile Convert.  The secularists  love to point out the seeming contradictions.  But they are not contradictory when considering who wrote them and for whom.  Just a different approach to the same message.

SO.  I think we all need to take care when laughing at funny videos posted by breakaway sedecavantists (sic)and deriding the Latin Church in whole. YES.  The US Church has strayed in many places, but what the videos show is as others have mentioned not as wide spread as some might believe. And some weirdness is a byproduct of trying to reach everyone in the world, and every little odd community therein.

I apologize for the length of these posts, but since liturgical abuse is what has pointed me towards your faith, I have strong opinion on the subject.

Bill Unland
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 05:31:15 AM by WUnland » Logged
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« Reply #91 on: February 25, 2011, 06:43:12 AM »

WU,
I think these are totally fair points, and that is why to me, the singing and dancing was less alarming than some of the other "abuses".

As for the singing and dancing, I think it's dumb, for lack of a better word, and it's catering to a segment of worshipers, and to a set of desires, that should not be catered to. There are 2 points about this issue that really stuck out to me, and played a major part in my starting to head East:

1)To me, like I said in my earlier post, things like "Extraordinary Ministers", and the overall liturgical reforms of Vatican II, which did come from Rome, are totally untenable practices. When I joined the RC Church years ago, as a teenager, things like this didn't occur to me, coming from an entirely atheistic/ancestrally American Protestant background. I had no reason to question the modern practices of the church, but I also had the luxury of coming into the church in my first year in college, while living in a very, very small town in upstate NY, in a very small parish that just so happened to have a Latin Mass, and a totally no-nonsense Novus Ordo Mass, in a very old, traditional-looking church. When I transferred to school in Boston, and experienced places like the Paulist Center, or even just run of the mill parishes, and then returned home to Brooklyn, and saw things that went on in churches in NYC, I was fairly shocked, and the more I researched it, the less sense it made to me that any of these reforms were ever allowed. Obviously, the directive to sing John Denver songs about God while a Harvard Professor of Feminist Studies reads the Epistle does not come from Rome, but the Novus Ordo did, and I had a lot of trouble with this.

2) Even though I acknowledge that all that other nonsense does not come from Rome, I would echo what some of the earlier posters said, which is that when a church makes such claims about its head as the RC church does about the pope (much as I happen to admire Benedict XVI, and John Paul II, memory eternal), and such claims about the efficacy of said approach, things like we are seeing should not be allowed. That is to say, of course, in any church comprised of mere mortals there wills be chaos, the type of which was seen with Iconoclasts and all the other First Millennium heresies, with liturgical abuse, with sexual abuse, etc., but when a church puts so much authority and faith in its leader, it should follow that if its claims were true, there would not be such chaos. Case in point, the Russian Tsar: though the Orthodox Church never officially designated it (which is hugely important),  plenty of Russians thought of him as almost God on Earth. I can recall seeing an icon illustrating God's kingdoms in heaven and on earth, each with the Tsar at center. This idea has almost completely disappeared, because the things that occurred under his rule show us quite clearly that the Tsar did not possess these special qualities that were often attributed to him.
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« Reply #92 on: February 25, 2011, 08:27:45 AM »

Dear Jim,

We are in total agreement about the extraordinary minister, alter girls, yada yada yada that came from INTERPRETATION of the "SPIRIT of Vat II" by the US and European Churches.  EMHC's were to be used ONLY where the priests couldn't reasonably handle the crowd, but we both know it is way past that limitation.  I went to a Carmelite elementary school with full on habit nuns and brothers with kneeling all day a not unusual "drill".  Consequently the new "innovations" drive me nuts. That's why I'm here.  My Church is loosing it's mind in many dioceses.  But really what do you expect when 60% of priests don't really believe in the real presence in the US.  Why not make it a show.  Priests just want to be liked too.

I was catechized well, and without wanting to start a discussion about same do not find objection to the basic dogma of my Church, which I honestly believe is not really so different that the Orthodox.  Practice is indeed different, as is liturgy, but that's another story.

As far as the "central command" argument about the Pope, I have never really seen him as a real "authority".  He stopped having an army and cutting off heretical bishops heads long ago.  Seems rather like the queen of England to me.  The old boy Cardinal club writes something up, that he signs, and it goes out.  But usually it involves totally inconsequential stuff that has NO affect on my faith or practice whatsoever.  I think that he knows that he hasn't the "real" power to enforce anything so he goes about trying to hold the whole shebang together by tip toeing around things while rarely giving a real answer. Personally I have NO problem with the first among equals Orthodox approach to the whole "authority" thing.  I can see the point where one "leader" would be needed to "break ties" over how many angels fit on a pin head type discussions, but I have never seen the Pope's authority to be much more than administrative.

My Orthodox friends and particularly Protestants jump all over the "infallibility" thing, but that is only applicable to EX CATHEDRA dogmatic issues and has been applied, what 2 times in the last 100 years.  NOBODY in the Church believes that everything a Pope says or does is infallible, people outside just think that we do.

The Church isn't a business with the Pope as CEO, its more like a club with a central head.  Each chapter has it's own president and runs it's own affairs, but the head is there to attempt to keep the peace between the various presidents. About the only thing he can do is remove a Bishop, but that requires some direct disobedience, so it is done rarely.

I am NOT a cannon law expert, nor an expert on Church history or theology, just a retired cop, regular trying to be a good Catholic guy.  Maybe my views are way off of what reality it, but it's how I see my Church. The liturgical abuses affect me so I don't like them.  When I am in the US I go to a pre-62 Latin service at a small Polish community center.  I can't stand the NO Church nearby (wine poured from a water pitcher into chalices on the alter by some woman in a cassock?Huh).  Here in Japan I have no choice.

Bill Unland
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« Reply #93 on: February 25, 2011, 11:28:42 AM »

Back to the original topic,

I am a Latin Rite Catholic.  Quite frankly the types of silliness shown in the YouTube videos is EXACTLY why I am on THIS site.

My Church caught the 1960's new age bug and with Vatican II tried to get "modern" and become attractive in a new "hip and "inclusive" way.  Spiritualism was deemed to be expressible in many ways not only in the ancient ceremonies of times past.  I remember the jaw dropping amazement as a 7th grade kid when the nuns showed up without habits strumming guitars at Mass for the first time.  They wanted to be hippies, remember it was the 60's.

This freewheeling, let the people express themselves, they're all talking to God in their own way type of liberalism became the norm in the US.  That resulted in the abominations seen in the videos.  MOST parishes don't go that far, but they all "innovate".  They seem to feel they need to to keep their "audience".  That is why the traditionalists flee the NO Masses.  Now you throw the "neochatecumenal way" into the mix and the Mass has become unrecognizable when compared to the official "rules" of the Church.

As others have said the Pope is not the king.  Each Bishop is responsible for his priest's following the "rules".  But many of the Bishops started this whole touchy feely movement because they think it is better to have any members than no members.  They believe they will loose parishioners if they try to "force" any "rules" on people's expression of "faith".

  Add to that the "gay mafia" which infected the priesthood in the 70's, which eventually led to the child abuse scandals.  The devout immigrant families that had supplied priests to the Church for decades didn't want their sons getting messed up with it all and the seminaries died.  Now when I return to California for a visit all the priests I see are Filipino, Mexican, or Vietnamese.

It is easy to demand that the Pope take charge and do something, but to be honest I believe that the US Bishops would tell him to pound sand, just as many European bishops already have.  I think the belief that the Pope has some great power over the dioceses is sadly mistaken.  The Pope needs the Bishops, they really don't need him.  They collect the money, they control the properties, they ordain the priests etc.  The Pope can say NO, but as with the SSPX and others, the Bishops may just leave.  MANY believe the US Church will eventually do just that.

Sorry for the rant, but I think it unfair to lump all faithful Catholics into the circus clowns seen in the videos.  There are many of us that wish it wasn't so.  As I have said in other posts I try VERY hard to remain faithful to my Church, BUT it is becoming difficult to not see the problems with it's "liberal" disposition. At present I am in Japan which is fairly conservative, so no clown Masses, not yet anyway.

It is important to remember that the Church as an institution is not bad, but there are certainly some powerful personalities IN the Church that are either truly BAD, or just cowards unwilling to endure any hardship should they actually defend the faith.

Many think that they are great "philosophers" which are just smarter than everyone else and are moving the Church where it really should be.  Others are just trying to be liked by EVERYONE because they think that is what Jesus was all about.  It's all heresy of course, but I honestly believe in their own arrogance, they don't see it.

Regards,
William Unland

Thank you William for posting IMO the most heartfelt, honest and meaningful defense of the Roman Catholic Church that has been posted on this Forum during the two years I have been a member. Not all Orthodox take the fierce, anti-Roman view that many are willing to anonymously put on the internet.

While we Orthodox may have deep and equally heartfelt concerns about the Roman Church and retain our own staunch opposition to certain of her beliefs, we do not all mock her or revel in pope-bashing.

I believe that while there are certainly some who feel they are doing the Roman Catholic Church a service by posting the angry type of drivel that the OP refers to, we Orthodox should recognize that we have our own set of misguided 'cheerleaders' who reciprocate in kind.

There are valid doctrinal and historical reasons why our Churches and our laity fear dialogue and harbor long held misconceptions about each other and their respective beliefs. We can not ignore that reality, but that reality should not stop us from honestly staking out common moral ground where we clearly agree as we confront the secular post-Christian world and working towards reconciliation if that be the will of God.

In Christ,

David
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« Reply #94 on: February 26, 2011, 06:45:49 PM »

My Orthodox friends and particularly Protestants jump all over the "infallibility" thing, but that is only applicable to EX CATHEDRA dogmatic issues and has been applied, what 2 times in the last 100 years.  NOBODY in the Church believes that everything a Pope says or does is infallible, people outside just think that we do.

The thing is, in addition to papal infallibility (dealing with dogma) there is also papal universal jurisdiction (dealing with everything else). Just because the pope chooses not to intervene in any given situation doesn't mean he doesn't have that right according to RC canon law.
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« Reply #95 on: February 26, 2011, 07:00:16 PM »

My Orthodox friends and particularly Protestants jump all over the "infallibility" thing, but that is only applicable to EX CATHEDRA dogmatic issues and has been applied, what 2 times in the last 100 years.  NOBODY in the Church believes that everything a Pope says or does is infallible, people outside just think that we do.

The thing is, in addition to papal infallibility (dealing with dogma) there is also papal universal jurisdiction (dealing with everything else). Just because the pope chooses not to intervene in any given situation doesn't mean he doesn't have that right according to RC canon law.

Right. When I talk about my qualms with papal authority, infallibility is just a piece of it. I fully understand, and have understood for quite some time, what the RC definition of infallibility is, though contextualizing "ex cathedra" is tough... The issue of universal jurisdiction, combined with the potential for the infallible statement, creates a whole new level of authority.
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« Reply #96 on: February 26, 2011, 08:34:02 PM »

My Orthodox friends and particularly Protestants jump all over the "infallibility" thing, but that is only applicable to EX CATHEDRA dogmatic issues and has been applied, what 2 times in the last 100 years.  NOBODY in the Church believes that everything a Pope says or does is infallible, people outside just think that we do.

The thing is, in addition to papal infallibility (dealing with dogma) there is also papal universal jurisdiction (dealing with everything else). Just because the pope chooses not to intervene in any given situation doesn't mean he doesn't have that right according to RC canon law.

There is such a critter in the Catholic Church as due process.  There are certain things that the Holy Father can do outside of due process, like call a council, or call a bishop to come to him and talk to him whether the bishop wants to go or not...but once you get past those couple of things he can do on his own, he is just as bound by due process as anyone else.

So the concern that there's some sort of limitless power to do harm on the part of the Holy Father is just not realistic...
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« Reply #97 on: February 26, 2011, 11:38:21 PM »

Hello,

Please let me assure all that it was NOT my intention to go off on a papal authority direction with my post, I was limiting that discussion to an inquiry as to why the Pope had not stopped the liturgical abuses that were the original subject of this thread.  I would never presume to argue against the long held Orthodox distrust of papal authority.  I am neither qualified, nor actually inclined to do so since I am not in any meaningful way in disagreement with the Orthodox position.  For taking the thread off course I apologize.

My point was exactly the same as the post above, basically that the Pope has no "real" power.  He is a Bishop with some administrative authority, but clearly the other Bishops do not follow his "suggestions" with much consistency as evidenced by the bizarre liturgies, the "gay" masses and so forth.

As I stated before, I am in complete agreement with the "first among equals" concept held by the Orthodox Church regarding the Pope. My somewhat disjointed previous post was an attempt to point out that I believed that such a position is his reality in my Church right now.  First amongst the Bishops, but NOT holding any power over them except to fire them.

It seems he is like the chairman of a board of directors; elected from a group of equals to maintain order. Not much more.  For the Pope to speak Ex Cathedra, IE; with authority, he needs the backing and approval of the magisterium, the college of cardinals.  He can't just make dogmatic decisions on his own.  That is my understanding anyway.  I don't see it to be much different than the decisions made during Orthodox councils or general assemblies of the Patriarchies.  The Pope is just the figurehead that signs the final decisions, and takes the responsibility for in history. The Apostles were all equals, with Peter as the guy responsible for getting all the others to come to concensus.  I think the Pope's position is not much different in my Church now.

Regards,
William Unland
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« Reply #98 on: February 27, 2011, 10:25:22 AM »

Given your approach here, I am very interested, considering how much we all observe the Decalogue in the breach, what you think about the usefulness and worth of the Ten Commandments? 

Would you speak of their moral and theological and spiritual ineffectiveness in the same way that you speak of the Pope in Rome?  Perhaps we should simply expunge them from Scripture so that the Bible falls more in line with human proclivities?   Or perhaps we should set up ecclesiastical courts to deal with people who don't toe the line?...and an ecclesiastical police force to bring the beggars to the bar?

What do you think?


Hello,

Please let me assure all that it was NOT my intention to go off on a papal authority direction with my post, I was limiting that discussion to an inquiry as to why the Pope had not stopped the liturgical abuses that were the original subject of this thread.  I would never presume to argue against the long held Orthodox distrust of papal authority.  I am neither qualified, nor actually inclined to do so since I am not in any meaningful way in disagreement with the Orthodox position.  For taking the thread off course I apologize.

My point was exactly the same as the post above, basically that the Pope has no "real" power.  He is a Bishop with some administrative authority, but clearly the other Bishops do not follow his "suggestions" with much consistency as evidenced by the bizarre liturgies, the "gay" masses and so forth.

As I stated before, I am in complete agreement with the "first among equals" concept held by the Orthodox Church regarding the Pope. My somewhat disjointed previous post was an attempt to point out that I believed that such a position is his reality in my Church right now.  First amongst the Bishops, but NOT holding any power over them except to fire them.

It seems he is like the chairman of a board of directors; elected from a group of equals to maintain order. Not much more.  For the Pope to speak Ex Cathedra, IE; with authority, he needs the backing and approval of the magisterium, the college of cardinals.  He can't just make dogmatic decisions on his own.  That is my understanding anyway.  I don't see it to be much different than the decisions made during Orthodox councils or general assemblies of the Patriarchies.  The Pope is just the figurehead that signs the final decisions, and takes the responsibility for in history. The Apostles were all equals, with Peter as the guy responsible for getting all the others to come to concensus.  I think the Pope's position is not much different in my Church now.

Regards,
William Unland
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« Reply #99 on: February 27, 2011, 07:34:47 PM »

My Dear Brother,

That certainly came from nowhere.  I agreed with you that the Pope’s authority is not limitless and NOW you equate it to the authority of the 10 commandments.  Wow, that is a leap!

I REALLY didn’t want this discussion to go here but I feel I must respond.

Firstly I accept the leadership of the Pope. I am a member of his Church. Jesus himself established his authority as the head of the Church on earth.  I do not recall, however; the Gospels saying that ONLY Peter was to be listened to and that only he could discern truth.  He is a man elected by other men. History proves that the hand of God is not always involved in these elections as we have had some VERY bad Popes who abused their authority and lived scandalous lives.  The Pentecost was not only Peter’s.  All of the Apostles received the gifts.  We as Roman Rite members pray that God will inspire and lead the Pope every time we go to Mass. His “personal” infallibility is hardly taken for granted. Jesus made him the leader of the organization, not it's "guru", if you will.

Benedict XVI is a modernist.  Have you read his books?  He does NOT believe in the general Resurrection of the body, and says that the Creed is couched in antiquated ideas and can be misleading.  He believes that Genesis is nothing more than pagan creation mythos. He believes that Jews are not subject to Christ’s covenant (contrary to Matthew). He believes that Islam worships the same God as I do even while they are martyring my brothers and deny the divinity of Christ.  He believes that the cultish heretical Neocatechumenal Way is a positive force in the Church.

NO, I do NOT believe that I must accept these beliefs of the Pope to reach my own salvation.  In fact I must resist them. I am NOT a Sedevacantist.  He is the Pope and the head of my Church.  I obey my Bishop and he obeys the Pope, but there are limits to what level that obedience is required. It says just that in Church law.  If Benedict declared that all believer should henceforth wear pink underwear as a sign of belief, and failure to do so would excommunicate, would you feel this was inspired by God, and feel that your salvation depended on it? Hardly I would proffer.

The ten commandments on the other hand, are a cornerstone of Judeo-Christian thought and tradition.  The Pope’s secular authority is hardly that, and your analogy seems to lack any basis at all. What "authority" are you now addressing?  How did we leap from the Pope's "limited" secular authority to the ten commandments of scripture being without binding authority over believers? If I am missing something please teach me.  As I said I am NOT a theologian, just a fuddling layman trying to get through my life as close to God as I can.

Regards,
William Unland
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« Reply #100 on: February 27, 2011, 09:24:39 PM »

My Dear Brother,

That certainly came from nowhere.  


It came from the idea that if something does not work properly then we either need to get rid of it or ignore it.   The ten commandments barely make a dent in a post lapsarian world.  So I suggested, given your logic, that they are useless too.

Since I do not read Pope Benedict as a modernist, I think I'll have to pass on the rest of your note.
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« Reply #101 on: February 28, 2011, 12:23:31 AM »

If they did this during mass I am going to puke.  Shocked
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« Reply #102 on: February 28, 2011, 02:38:49 AM »

If they did this during mass I am going to puke.  Shocked

Quick, someone give this man a bucket! Wink
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« Reply #103 on: February 28, 2011, 10:20:51 PM »

Supposedly it is the Mass adapted to "African-American culture." In fact it is indulgent, self-reverential narcissism. A "spiritual entertainment", in the words of Cardinal Ratzinger.
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« Reply #104 on: March 03, 2011, 11:59:40 PM »

My Dear Brother,

That certainly came from nowhere.  I agreed with you that the Pope’s authority is not limitless and NOW you equate it to the authority of the 10 commandments.  Wow, that is a leap!

I REALLY didn’t want this discussion to go here but I feel I must respond.

Firstly I accept the leadership of the Pope. I am a member of his Church. Jesus himself established his authority as the head of the Church on earth.  I do not recall, however; the Gospels saying that ONLY Peter was to be listened to and that only he could discern truth.  He is a man elected by other men. History proves that the hand of God is not always involved in these elections as we have had some VERY bad Popes who abused their authority and lived scandalous lives.  The Pentecost was not only Peter’s.  All of the Apostles received the gifts.  We as Roman Rite members pray that God will inspire and lead the Pope every time we go to Mass. His “personal” infallibility is hardly taken for granted. Jesus made him the leader of the organization, not it's "guru", if you will.

Benedict XVI is a modernist.  Have you read his books?  He does NOT believe in the general Resurrection of the body, and says that the Creed is couched in antiquated ideas and can be misleading.  He believes that Genesis is nothing more than pagan creation mythos. He believes that Jews are not subject to Christ’s covenant (contrary to Matthew). He believes that Islam worships the same God as I do even while they are martyring my brothers and deny the divinity of Christ.  He believes that the cultish heretical Neocatechumenal Way is a positive force in the Church.

NO, I do NOT believe that I must accept these beliefs of the Pope to reach my own salvation.  In fact I must resist them. I am NOT a Sedevacantist.  He is the Pope and the head of my Church.  I obey my Bishop and he obeys the Pope, but there are limits to what level that obedience is required. It says just that in Church law.  If Benedict declared that all believer should henceforth wear pink underwear as a sign of belief, and failure to do so would excommunicate, would you feel this was inspired by God, and feel that your salvation depended on it? Hardly I would proffer.

The ten commandments on the other hand, are a cornerstone of Judeo-Christian thought and tradition.  The Pope’s secular authority is hardly that, and your analogy seems to lack any basis at all. What "authority" are you now addressing?  How did we leap from the Pope's "limited" secular authority to the ten commandments of scripture being without binding authority over believers? If I am missing something please teach me.  As I said I am NOT a theologian, just a fuddling layman trying to get through my life as close to God as I can.

Regards,
William Unland


Are you sure that the Pope really beleives these things that you ascribe to him, or are these just misread qotations taken out of context by some traditionalist RC source?
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« Reply #105 on: March 05, 2011, 02:40:17 AM »

That's a fair question and to be honest I don't really know if I have been "chumped" by the Sedevacantists or not.  I have read two of Benedict's books and found them very laborious and hard to follow.  Could be the translation or I am just too dull witted to "get" them.  Esoteric theology is not my great strength.

My statements are based on quotes from his MANY books BUT what I read was not in context, only quotes, so I guess my answer would be only Benedict really knows what he believes. Consequently it was UNFAIR of me to make them without appropriate references, and that is my mistake.

That said, his approach towards the Jews is well known and stated quite clearly.  He has promised NOT to try to convert Jews and has publically stated that their covenant is valid for them.  This seems to be rather in conflict with traditional Church teaching, and seems rather "modernist" to me. I had always thought that Matthew in particular stressed that Jesus was interested in bringing Jews into the New Covenant, and that his message was firstly directed to them and NOT Gentiles.  How this is abrogated in Benedict's interpretation I have no clue.

Back to the original purpose of this thread, liturgical abuse; I can say that Yes, Benedict has expressed some affinity for the old liturgy, but at the same time endorses the way out there NeoCats with their french bread and wine bottle "meals", so at least for me, his actual "beliefs" are rather hard to understand, and his "fence straddling" isn't helping my Church much.  I think he firmly believes in VatII.  I am NOT a hyper-trad, but I do recognize that VatII has resulted in huge damage to my Church.  The Pope is going to have to "contain" and "define" VatII or the abuses will just continue.  That is if HE considers them abuses at all. I have been told MANY times that it is NOT what I want in a liturgy that is important, and that others express their faith differently.  I accept that, but I just can't express MY feelings of piety at clown Masses, balloon Masses, guitars and bongo Masses and all the other silliness. I am not the handholding, swaying back and forth to the music, eyes turned to heaven kind of guy. It may work for some, but not me. If that is where tthe Church wants to go I just don't think I can follow. But that is just this layman's opinion.

Regards,
William Unland
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« Reply #106 on: March 05, 2011, 01:59:44 PM »

Dear William,

I don't think that the Pope endorses modernism in any of its forms.  Also I and others here have told you that we've never seen such liturgies as others have seen and that you enumerate here.  So I expect that things may not be quite as bleak as you are painting them.

But the reality is that you appear not to be being fed spiritually as a Catholic and so perhaps it might be better if you found another place to invest your time and efforts....It seems to me that the salvation of your soul is what is most important at the end of the day.
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« Reply #107 on: March 05, 2011, 04:10:15 PM »

That's a fair question and to be honest I don't really know if I have been "chumped" by the Sedevacantists or not.

They are Roman Catholics who believe in the necessity of the Pope, but deny the Pope.

Quote
I have read two of Benedict's books I accept that, but I just can't express MY feelings of piety at clown Masses, balloon Masses, guitars and bongo Masses and all the other silliness. I am not the handholding, swaying back and forth to the music, eyes turned to heaven kind of guy. It may work for some, but not me.

How many of these masses have you personally attended?
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« Reply #108 on: March 05, 2011, 04:12:44 PM »

Dear William,

I don't think that the Pope endorses modernism in any of its forms.  Also I and others here have told you that we've never seen such liturgies as others have seen and that you enumerate here.  So I expect that things may not be quite as bleak as you are painting them.
I don't understand why EO try and pretend that the extreme abuses are the norm. I guess it's just one of those questions that won't be answered.
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« Reply #109 on: March 05, 2011, 04:40:48 PM »

As others Roman Rite members have said the really abusive Masses are VERY rare.  I have never intended to suggest that they are common, but they do exist, and the NeoCat movement IS becoming more widespread, if not hidden from the view of many Catholics since they have their own "services" away from the main parish. If you watch the Youtube videos it always seems to be the same events, so there have clearly not been that many of the more scandelous Masses.  I have personally never been to a circus Mass etc.

At the local Parish I have attended in California it was not over the top but neither was it "reverent".  A woman pouring wine from a water pitcher on the alter struck me as not particularly reverential.  It could have been done in the sacristy. EM's wearing some kind of psudo vestments.  Holding hands to sing songs, the priest asking for a louder "goodmorning" before the sermon, and the perpetual social justice give more message message just turned me off. I'm sorry if that makes me a bad Catholic.

I am in Japan where the liturgy is conservative albeit rather watered down, if you translate the prayers.  There are only 2 Latin Masses a month in the entire country and they are SSPX. We do have NeoCats here, but not in my parish.  They, of course do the guitar bongo thing, which I am sorry I would never be able to embrace.

I don't think I am asking too much in wanting a liturgy like I experienced back when VATII first came out.  It WAS the Latin Mass in ENGLISH for all intents and purposes.  I am not a trad, I don't demand Latin, that's a bit too much.  I just wish that the liturgy wasn't so "protestant", so "touchy feely" as it has become in the USA. Popular gospel singing, all female servers and EM's, tee shirts and jeans.  I guess I am just getting old and displaying a lack of "evolution" in my opinion on liturgical practice.

As far as the Catholic Church fulfilling my spiritual needs, the theology and prayer life does.  The liturgy doesn't, but I accept the limitations placed on me by my location.  Where I think I disagree with some here is that I do NOT feel that the Pope's personal opinion on anything is an important part of my personal salvation.  I accept him as the head of my Church.  He's the CEO, but because he likes the NeoCats doesn't mean I do.  I cannot believe that my soul is in the balance of how much I agree or disagree with Benedict.  Not dogmatically, but in his writings and "opinions" which do NOT hold the power of the Church behind them.

That's it.  Some my call me a bad Catholic.  I really hope that that is NOT the case, but as I stated when I started my journey on this board I will honestly admit that the lack of substance in the current NO liturgy of my Church is what is pointing me towards the Orthodox. My Roman brethren may dismiss me because of it, but I am only being honest.

Regards,
Bill Unland
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« Reply #110 on: March 05, 2011, 07:03:55 PM »

Dear William,

I don't think that the Pope endorses modernism in any of its forms.  Also I and others here have told you that we've never seen such liturgies as others have seen and that you enumerate here.  So I expect that things may not be quite as bleak as you are painting them.
I don't understand why EO try and pretend that the extreme abuses are the norm. I guess it's just one of those questions that won't be answered.


Well, for starters, if the only EO's you really 'talk' with are online, then you are only hearing from a microscopic percentage of all believers.  I have never heard a discussion in real life where anyone even brought up, let alone focused on the type of silliness that gets posted on youtube by some Catholics. Sure, we are upset when we see such abuse, but, honestly, so are you and most of your co-religionists.
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« Reply #111 on: March 05, 2011, 07:17:39 PM »

Dear William,

I don't think that the Pope endorses modernism in any of its forms.  Also I and others here have told you that we've never seen such liturgies as others have seen and that you enumerate here.  So I expect that things may not be quite as bleak as you are painting them.
I don't understand why EO try and pretend that the extreme abuses are the norm. I guess it's just one of those questions that won't be answered.

Well, for starters, if the only EO's you really 'talk' with are online, then you are only hearing from a microscopic percentage of all believers.  I have never heard a discussion in real life where anyone even brought up, let alone focused on the type of silliness that gets posted on youtube by some Catholics. Sure, we are upset when we see such abuse, but, honestly, so are you and most of your co-religionists.

Very true.  There's no business like show business!!   Wink
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« Reply #112 on: March 05, 2011, 08:26:38 PM »

Dear William,

I don't think that the Pope endorses modernism in any of its forms.  Also I and others here have told you that we've never seen such liturgies as others have seen and that you enumerate here.  So I expect that things may not be quite as bleak as you are painting them.
I don't understand why EO try and pretend that the extreme abuses are the norm. I guess it's just one of those questions that won't be answered.
Answered many times over.  But I'll answer yet again.

Ya'll keep on insisting that we are missing something, namely "Catholic communion" with the "font of unity." As outrageous as it may seem, we take a look at who is in communion with that "font of unity," and see this.  We know immediately if that "font of unity" would unite us into communion with this, we have no such interest.
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« Reply #113 on: March 05, 2011, 08:34:37 PM »

Dear William,

I don't think that the Pope endorses modernism in any of its forms.  Also I and others here have told you that we've never seen such liturgies as others have seen and that you enumerate here.  So I expect that things may not be quite as bleak as you are painting them.
I don't understand why EO try and pretend that the extreme abuses are the norm. I guess it's just one of those questions that won't be answered.
Answered many times over.  But I'll answer yet again.

Ya'll keep on insisting that we are missing something, namely "Catholic communion" with the "font of unity." As outrageous as it may seem, we take a look at who is in communion with that "font of unity," and see this.  We know immediately if that "font of unity" would unite us into communion with this, we have no such interest.

The one holy catholic and apostolic Church of my Baptism is in communion with many sinners.  We pray for them and do our best not to emulate them and are grateful when they are not an immediate part of our everyday lives which is a selfish gratitude and one which I personally hope to overcome before I die.
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« Reply #114 on: March 05, 2011, 09:00:58 PM »

Dear William,

I don't think that the Pope endorses modernism in any of its forms.  Also I and others here have told you that we've never seen such liturgies as others have seen and that you enumerate here.  So I expect that things may not be quite as bleak as you are painting them.
I don't understand why EO try and pretend that the extreme abuses are the norm. I guess it's just one of those questions that won't be answered.
Answered many times over.  But I'll answer yet again.

Ya'll keep on insisting that we are missing something, namely "Catholic communion" with the "font of unity." As outrageous as it may seem, we take a look at who is in communion with that "font of unity," and see this.  We know immediately if that "font of unity" would unite us into communion with this, we have no such interest.

The one holy catholic and apostolic Church of my Baptism is in communion with many sinners.  We pray for them and do our best not to emulate them and are grateful when they are not an immediate part of our everyday lives which is a selfish gratitude and one which I personally hope to overcome before I die.

Well, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of the Creed in which the Fathers baptized knows that allowing heretics and sinners to persist in their heresy and sin does them no good, and hence gives them the choice of choosing life. So she is in communion with repenting sinners, but not ones celebrating and promoting their sin.
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« Reply #115 on: March 05, 2011, 09:27:42 PM »

Dear William,

I don't think that the Pope endorses modernism in any of its forms.  Also I and others here have told you that we've never seen such liturgies as others have seen and that you enumerate here.  So I expect that things may not be quite as bleak as you are painting them.
I don't understand why EO try and pretend that the extreme abuses are the norm. I guess it's just one of those questions that won't be answered.
Answered many times over.  But I'll answer yet again.

Ya'll keep on insisting that we are missing something, namely "Catholic communion" with the "font of unity." As outrageous as it may seem, we take a look at who is in communion with that "font of unity," and see this.  We know immediately if that "font of unity" would unite us into communion with this, we have no such interest.

The one holy catholic and apostolic Church of my Baptism is in communion with many sinners.  We pray for them and do our best not to emulate them and are grateful when they are not an immediate part of our everyday lives which is a selfish gratitude and one which I personally hope to overcome before I die.


My Baptism is a Baptism in the Church of the Fathers and there is no human judgment that makes any difference in the repentance of sinners.  Every opportunity for contrition and change remains open to divine grace till we move into life everlasting...What one human says about the condition of another, in terms of their salvation and the state of their souls, is meaningless.  

We may hope for the best in terms of their behaviors, but no amount of human force has ever moved a soul to repent.  Remaining in communion with sinners is perhaps the greatest gift of communion for we are granted the grace to participate in the salvific actions of the Christ through prayer, fasting and alms giving and participating in the public work of the Body of Christ.  We are able to discern right and wrong, good and evil by a graced illumination of our intellect [patristic meaning of intellect intended here] but that is where our human capacities cease.

So that when we see our brothers and sisters fall, it is better to give to the poor than to seek out a schismatic state.   The Body does not reject us when we sin or divide us from ourselves.  So who are we then to divide the Body?
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« Reply #116 on: March 05, 2011, 09:56:27 PM »

Dear William,

I don't think that the Pope endorses modernism in any of its forms.  Also I and others here have told you that we've never seen such liturgies as others have seen and that you enumerate here.  So I expect that things may not be quite as bleak as you are painting them.
I don't understand why EO try and pretend that the extreme abuses are the norm. I guess it's just one of those questions that won't be answered.
Answered many times over.  But I'll answer yet again.

Ya'll keep on insisting that we are missing something, namely "Catholic communion" with the "font of unity." As outrageous as it may seem, we take a look at who is in communion with that "font of unity," and see this.  We know immediately if that "font of unity" would unite us into communion with this, we have no such interest.

The one holy catholic and apostolic Church of my Baptism is in communion with many sinners.  We pray for them and do our best not to emulate them and are grateful when they are not an immediate part of our everyday lives which is a selfish gratitude and one which I personally hope to overcome before I die.


My Baptism is a Baptism in the Church of the Fathers
So you left their Orthodox confession?

and there is no human judgment that makes any difference in the repentance of sinners.
"Whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven...whose soever sins you retain are retained."

And we are not talking about repenting sinners, but unrepentent-boastful even-ones.

Every opportunity for contrition and change remains open to divine grace till we move into life everlasting...What one human says about the condition of another, in terms of their salvation and the state of their souls, is meaningless.
"It is impossible but that offenses will come; but woe to him by whom they come! It were better for him that a millstone tied around his neck and cast into the sea."

Christ has no fellowship with Belial: with whom do these rites have fellowship?

We may hope for the best in terms of their behaviors, but no amount of human force has ever moved a soul to repent.  Remaining in communion with sinners is perhaps the greatest gift of communion for we are granted the grace to participate in the salvific actions of the Christ through prayer, fasting and alms giving and participating in the public work of the Body of Christ.  We are able to discern right and wrong, good and evil by a graced illumination of our intellect [patristic meaning of intellect intended here] but that is where our human capacities cease.

The Fathers told Arius, Macedonius, Nestorius, Eutyches, Sergius, Honorius, and Leo otherwise.

So that when we see our brothers and sisters fall, it is better to give to the poor than to seek out a schismatic state.   The Body does not reject us when we sin or divide us from ourselves.  So who are we then to divide the Body?
Who are we to unite the Body to Belial?
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« Reply #117 on: March 05, 2011, 10:02:40 PM »

If you prefer brute force there's not much I can do about that...and if we are not working fast enough for you...ah well.  Frankly your opinion on any of it means less than my own.
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« Reply #118 on: March 05, 2011, 10:20:45 PM »

If you prefer brute force there's not much I can do about that...
Did wistful nostalgia for the Crusaders and the Inquisition bring up brute force? 'Cuz I didn't.


and if we are not working fast enough for you...ah well.  Frankly your opinion on any of it means less than my own.

I'm only worried about those in communion with me in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and just with warning those in our communion that when the Vatican invites us to supper we have to be careful, as they do have fresh food but they do keep green meat in the fridge.  The Shepherd tells the sheep "eat no green meat."
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« Reply #119 on: March 05, 2011, 10:24:09 PM »

If you prefer brute force there's not much I can do about that...
Did wistful nostalgia for the Crusaders and the Inquisition bring up brute force? 'Cuz I didn't.


and if we are not working fast enough for you...ah well.  Frankly your opinion on any of it means less than my own.

I'm only worried about those in communion with me in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and just with warning thosse in our communion that when the Vatican invites us to supper we have to be careful, as they do have fresh food but they do keep green meat in the fridge.  The Shepherd tells the sheep "eat no green meat."

When our bishops say that it is time to resume communion, shall I commune with you or shall I remember you as green meat?
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« Reply #120 on: March 05, 2011, 10:32:40 PM »

If you prefer brute force there's not much I can do about that...
Did wistful nostalgia for the Crusaders and the Inquisition bring up brute force? 'Cuz I didn't.


and if we are not working fast enough for you...ah well.  Frankly your opinion on any of it means less than my own.

I'm only worried about those in communion with me in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and just with warning thosse in our communion that when the Vatican invites us to supper we have to be careful, as they do have fresh food but they do keep green meat in the fridge.  The Shepherd tells the sheep "eat no green meat."

When our bishops say that it is time to resume communion, shall I commune with you or shall I remember you as green meat?
Unlesss your bishops confess the Orthodox Faith, I won't be communing with you.  So you can remember me any way you like.
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« Reply #121 on: March 05, 2011, 10:38:57 PM »

If you prefer brute force there's not much I can do about that...
Did wistful nostalgia for the Crusaders and the Inquisition bring up brute force? 'Cuz I didn't.


and if we are not working fast enough for you...ah well.  Frankly your opinion on any of it means less than my own.

I'm only worried about those in communion with me in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and just with warning thosse in our communion that when the Vatican invites us to supper we have to be careful, as they do have fresh food but they do keep green meat in the fridge.  The Shepherd tells the sheep "eat no green meat."

When our bishops say that it is time to resume communion, shall I commune with you or shall I remember you as green meat?
Unlesss your bishops confess the Orthodox Faith, I won't be communing with you.  So you can remember me any way you like.

With or without communion with Orthodoxy, I am bound by the laws of charity.  Like it or not, I am so constrained.
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« Reply #122 on: March 05, 2011, 11:38:08 PM »

The dance and music are fine but don't belong at Mass, and I'm fairly sure Pope Benedict agrees.

(Why do things in church that emptied the mainline Protestant churches?)

I hate to see that high altar go to waste. Get the table out of there and set it back up.

You don't need that dance in church when you have 'choreography by Fortescue' (the ceremonial of the Tridentine Mass) for the asking.

I give Orthodoxy credit for not having these aberrations in church, and its people for not wanting them.
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« Reply #123 on: March 05, 2011, 11:48:08 PM »

I don't understand why EO try and pretend that the extreme abuses are the norm.
Because the larger your list of "grievances" against the Catholic Church the greater, it appears, is your reason for not being in full communion with Her.
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« Reply #124 on: March 05, 2011, 11:56:00 PM »

I don't understand why EO try and pretend that the extreme abuses are the norm.
Because the larger your list of "grievances" against the Catholic Church the greater, it appears, is your reason for not being in full communion with Her.
The fact that you are in communion with this nonsense is more than enough or the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church not to be in communon with the Vatican.
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« Reply #125 on: March 06, 2011, 01:30:37 AM »

I don't understand why EO try and pretend that the extreme abuses are the norm.
Because the larger your list of "grievances" against the Catholic Church the greater, it appears, is your reason for not being in full communion with Her.

There are plenty of things more common for us to criticize you over like female altar servers and the lack of chanting. If the little things were to be done in a more traditional way, I think there would be less room for the major abuses that become so famous to occur.
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« Reply #126 on: March 06, 2011, 11:53:22 AM »

I don't understand why EO try and pretend that the extreme abuses are the norm.
Because the larger your list of "grievances" against the Catholic Church the greater, it appears, is your reason for not being in full communion with Her.

There are plenty of things more common for us to criticize you over like female altar servers and the lack of chanting. If the little things were to be done in a more traditional way, I think there would be less room for the major abuses that become so famous to occur.

Everyone has their great and small quibbles with the Novus Ordo.  Since my opinion isn't worth the price of cabbage, I'll offer a couple of prognostications here.  They are not meant to be all inclusive; just a few things set forth for your perusal:

*Female altar servers will not go away in Novus Ordo parishes or masses, nor will female readers and cantors.  And frankly I would not be terribly fluffed about it, though I think they ought to dress all altar servers in something other than stitched up bed-sheets.  What they wear in too many places is more in keeping with fluffy slippers and bunny 'n ducky PJs.  Males and females alike are far from reverential in their appearance.  That bothers me far more than their maleness or femaleness.

*The time will come when the free standing altar and the high altar will be used in Churches that have them because there will be two Roman rite liturgies used in those Churches.   In all cases, Roman rite liturgies are offered to God regardless of orientation toward the east or toward the people.  If that makes you "feel" funny...ah well.  I've never seen a priestly performance at a Novus Ordo mass.  Best to clean up the seminaries and teach our priests well and much of that performance-mode that some folks complain about will go away through the custody of the eyes and heart.

*Communion in the hand will go away in small parishes with a strong core of devout faithful, eventually, and in the largest parishes as well though more slowly.

*Extraordinary Eucharistic ministers will also recede though slowly.  Sooner rather than later there will be dress codes enforced to keep out provocative female or male ministers, and the EMs will be extraordinary rather than usual or reflexive.  I have been to enough Orthodox liturgies with women dressed very provocatively that I don't take even that criticism to seriously, given the source.  My comment is that it is best to attend to your own house in that regard.

*The rule bound juridical Catholic Church, since Vatican II and the new Code of Canon Law, is sore pressed to dump a bishop anywhere in the world.  Bishops councils are slow to dump their fellow bishops or even recommend that they be dumped.  They are called to Rome, talked to, but rarely ordered or evicted summarily and what it would take to crush a bishop would be more destructive than altar girls in bed-sheet.

*Things move slowly in the Church.  We are sorry about that but we are not here to cater to our critics, and frankly there'd be as much pissing and moaning among our critics if we were quick to evict from the top.

*The 20th century hit the Catholic Church, the Church of my Baptism, very hard...and her members were more than willing to go along and sadly too many of those accommodationists and venal and sinful men were bishops.  And the election of bishops as it occurs now guarantees that they will clone themselves unless Rome steps in, and apparently Rome has been stepping in lately.  It is my hope that this "process" of episcopal election is reformed sooner rather than later.

*The Catholic Church, the Church of my Baptism, is not filled with goats.  The Church is filled with some very faithful and patient and loving people.  If you do not want to be in communion with us... Smiley...great!  It won't inhibit our salvation, or even get in the way of us running the good race.

*There are some excellent and holy men in the priesthood in my Church.  Many of them.  I am sorry you all haven't met more of them.

*My last comment is rude, though true.  I won't publish it in its cryptic form so that I may remain in good standing on this Forum.... laugh  But know that I am terribly unimpressed by the sniping that goes on.  Things are changing in the Roman Rite and Ritual and in the actions of the priests and the people.  It would be a grace to encourage their sustained efforts that are bringing welcome change,  rather than huffing and puffing superior aires.

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« Reply #127 on: March 06, 2011, 04:39:40 PM »

I don't understand why EO try and pretend that the extreme abuses are the norm.
Because the larger your list of "grievances" against the Catholic Church the greater, it appears, is your reason for not being in full communion with Her.
The fact that you are in communion with this nonsense is more than enough or the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church not to be in communon with the Vatican.
There you go calling the Catholic Church "the Vatican" again. LOL. Silly boy.
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« Reply #128 on: March 06, 2011, 05:09:31 PM »

I don't understand why EO try and pretend that the extreme abuses are the norm.
Because the larger your list of "grievances" against the Catholic Church the greater, it appears, is your reason for not being in full communion with Her.
The fact that you are in communion with this nonsense is more than enough or the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church not to be in communon with the Vatican.
There you go calling the Catholic Church "the Vatican" again. LOL. Silly boy.
Who's the one with these silly "liturgies"? Not, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
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« Reply #129 on: March 06, 2011, 05:13:57 PM »

Who's the one with these silly "liturgies"? Not, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I am sure that not every liturgy within your Church is celebrated perfect. I would even bet there are abuses within your Church as well. The lack of evidence for it on the internet is due to the fact that Eastern Orthodoxy is not nearly as well known as our Church.
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« Reply #130 on: March 06, 2011, 05:30:39 PM »

I don't understand why EO try and pretend that the extreme abuses are the norm.
Because the larger your list of "grievances" against the Catholic Church the greater, it appears, is your reason for not being in full communion with Her.
The fact that you are in communion with this nonsense is more than enough or the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church not to be in communon with the Vatican.
There you go calling the Catholic Church "the Vatican" again. LOL. Silly boy.
Who's the one with these silly "liturgies"? Not, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
This doesn't change the fact that you are a sill willy and keep calling the Catholic Church "The Vatican".  Cheesy
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« Reply #131 on: March 06, 2011, 06:03:15 PM »

I don't understand why EO try and pretend that the extreme abuses are the norm.
Because the larger your list of "grievances" against the Catholic Church the greater, it appears, is your reason for not being in full communion with Her.

There are plenty of things more common for us to criticize you over like female altar servers and the lack of chanting. If the little things were to be done in a more traditional way, I think there would be less room for the major abuses that become so famous to occur.

Everyone has their great and small quibbles with the Novus Ordo.  Since my opinion isn't worth the price of cabbage, I'll offer a couple of prognostications here.  They are not meant to be all inclusive; just a few things set forth for your perusal:

*Female altar servers will not go away in Novus Ordo parishes or masses, nor will female readers and cantors.  And frankly I would not be terribly fluffed about it, though I think they ought to dress all altar servers in something other than stitched up bed-sheets.  What they wear in too many places is more in keeping with fluffy slippers and bunny 'n ducky PJs.  Males and females alike are far from reverential in their appearance.  That bothers me far more than their maleness or femaleness.

I don't really see a huge problem with female readers, I know we have them in some places on occasion, and females sing in the choir and are expected to participate in the prayers of the people in the liturgy. Altar servers  is a different story. Females shouldn't be serving in the altar as an altar server unless they can someday be able to serve at the altar as a priest or at the very least a deacon.

Quote
*The time will come when the free standing altar and the high altar will be used in Churches that have them because there will be two Roman rite liturgies used in those Churches.   In all cases, Roman rite liturgies are offered to God regardless of orientation toward the east or toward the people.  If that makes you "feel" funny...ah well.  I've never seen a priestly performance at a Novus Ordo mass.  Best to clean up the seminaries and teach our priests well and much of that performance-mode that some folks complain about will go away through the custody of the eyes and heart.

I just think it makes more sense to face the altar when addressing God, and face the people when addressing them.

Quote
*Communion in the hand will go away in small parishes with a strong core of devout faithful, eventually, and in the largest parishes as well though more slowly.

This really shouldn't be a problem. I remember reading one of the early fathers (possibly St John Chrysostom) giving instruction on how to receive Communion in the hand.

Quote
*Extraordinary Eucharistic ministers will also recede though slowly.  Sooner rather than later there will be dress codes enforced to keep out provocative female or male ministers, and the EMs will be extraordinary rather than usual or reflexive.  I have been to enough Orthodox liturgies with women dressed very provocatively that I don't take even that criticism to seriously, given the source.  My comment is that it is best to attend to your own house in that regard.

My criticism wouldn't be how they're dressed, even though everyone should dress respectfully for church regrdless of what their position is in the Church. I think the concern is more that Communion should be distributed by and received from the clergy.

Quote
*The rule bound juridical Catholic Church, since Vatican II and the new Code of Canon Law, is sore pressed to dump a bishop anywhere in the world.  Bishops councils are slow to dump their fellow bishops or even recommend that they be dumped.  They are called to Rome, talked to, but rarely ordered or evicted summarily and what it would take to crush a bishop would be more destructive than altar girls in bed-sheet.

*Things move slowly in the Church.  We are sorry about that but we are not here to cater to our critics, and frankly there'd be as much pissing and moaning among our critics if we were quick to evict from the top.

*The 20th century hit the Catholic Church, the Church of my Baptism, very hard...and her members were more than willing to go along and sadly too many of those accommodationists and venal and sinful men were bishops.  And the election of bishops as it occurs now guarantees that they will clone themselves unless Rome steps in, and apparently Rome has been stepping in lately.  It is my hope that this "process" of episcopal election is reformed sooner rather than later.

You make an excellent point. Bishops should be carefully chosen and ordained as pastors over Christ's flock (I'm sure at least one member of my own Church is going to say something about me referring to you as "Christ's flock", but I hope everyone gets my point about the role of a bishop). One reason that some liturgical abuses occur is because they are approved by the local bishop.

Quote
*The Catholic Church, the Church of my Baptism, is not filled with goats.  The Church is filled with some very faithful and patient and loving people.  If you do not want to be in communion with us... Smiley...great!  It won't inhibit our salvation, or even get in the way of us running the good race.


*There are some excellent and holy men in the priesthood in my Church.  Many of them.  I am sorry you all haven't met more of them.

The majority of Catholics I've met are very good and sincere people. It's because of a few Catholics that I've known that I even take religion seriously right now, and it was them that got asking the questions that eventually led me to Orthodoxy, otherwise I would probably still be claiming to believe in God while disregarding my need to live in accordance with His will.

Quote
*My last comment is rude, though true.  I won't publish it in its cryptic form so that I may remain in good standing on this Forum.... laugh  But know that I am terribly unimpressed by the sniping that goes on.  Things are changing in the Roman Rite and Ritual and in the actions of the priests and the people.  It would be a grace to encourage their sustained efforts that are bringing welcome change,  rather than huffing and puffing superior aires.

I apologize if I come across sniping, but there are differencesa between us. I'm not going to pretend that they're not there or not important, but I do try (don't know how successful I am) not to create differences that aren't really there. I've seen a version of the new missal online, and hope that it is followed with reverence and respect. I think it has the potential to bring us closer together (at least in practice but not fully united), making reconciliation easier if/when the time ever comes that we can reach an agreement on doctrine and faith. Church unity isn't based only on doctrine but on a common faith and mutual love for each other, and it can hopefully strengthen whatever common bonds of love there are between us.

Just my opinion.
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« Reply #132 on: March 06, 2011, 06:15:29 PM »


I apologize if I come across sniping, but there are differencesa between us. I'm not going to pretend that they're not there or not important, but I do try (don't know how successful I am) not to create differences that aren't really there.
Just my opinion.

I don't want to detract from your good points till they've had a chance to percolate, but I did want you to know immediately that you are far far from being in any way offensive as an Orthodox correspondent.
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« Reply #133 on: March 06, 2011, 06:44:16 PM »

Who's the one with these silly "liturgies"? Not, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I am sure that not every liturgy within your Church is celebrated perfect.

I'm willing to bet that we avoid sacrilege at each and every one, and a priest or congregation that doesn't soon and swifly is corrected one way or another on that.

I would even bet there are abuses within your Church as well.
Interesting, wishful thinking (and with malice at that) offered as an argument and proof.

The lack of evidence for it on the internet is due to the fact that Eastern Orthodoxy is not nearly as well known as our Church.
I find plenty of things on the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church on the internet and youtube, including the WRO.  All good stuff. What can I conclude?
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« Reply #134 on: March 06, 2011, 06:53:52 PM »

Who's the one with these silly "liturgies"? Not, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I am sure that not every liturgy within your Church is celebrated perfect.

I'm willing to bet that we avoid sacrilege at each and every one, and a priest or congregation that doesn't soon and swifly is corrected one way or another on that.


As I said earlier, the tares are among us, they are not wrenched out as quickly as you would like but they are not as destructive as you insist and change comes in time.   We do not seek bragging rights before we seek the salvation of souls among us all.  The faithful remnant is apparent in each and every parish I've ever encountered in the Church of my Catholic Baptism.  Their influence, in time, prevails.
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