ialmisry,I've cited Pastor Aeternus, many times. That should be enough.
You said somewhere that you prefer to deal with the positions of the Vatican, but your actions say otherwise. Why don't you quote something that shows what the Vatican's position is (e.g. the CCC)? I like you and all, but I'm not prepared to automatically believe that the Vatican's position is such-and-such just because you say it is.
So essentially, because you've quoted Pastor Aeternus x number of times in the past, we should all trust you now whenever you say "Such-and-such is the Vatican's position"?
No, because PA leaves no mystery as to the Vatican's position:why something so plain has to be repeated baffles me.
And the quote above aren't my words, they are the words approved by an archbishop intimately involved as secratary to an archbishop who voted for Pastor Aeternus at Vatican I. We are told that all bishops are part of the magisterium. Pastor Aeternus claims as much: are you saying we can agree and say that such claims are false?
I'm not sure what point, in terms of logic, you're trying to make with your first two sentences, or what you're asking in the third sentence.
I'm not prepared to automatically believe that the Vatican's position is such-and-such just because you say it is.
when I merely posted the magisterium approved words describing a specific event of papal power in response to Lubeltri's vague allusion that
those who voted on Pastor Aeternus knew full well the many times in history in which the Bishop of Rome was held in actual or effective captivity by others.
without indicating how he read the hearts of those who voted on Pastor Aeternus. Since he did not reference any of those "many times in history," I merely provided a Vatican (ooops! I mean "magisterium." We'll get to that below) approved account of a time in history in which the pope is claimed to "exercise the papal perrogative" in "the plenitude of his powers," approved-as I indicated-by someone who was intimately involved with a cardinal who voted for Pastor Aeternus after said cardinal's return from Vatican I, and thereafter succeeded him to the cardinalate and its place in the magisterium.
My words were only to identify these undisputable facts, and raise questions to Lubeltri's excuses for the Vatican:
They saw no contradiction---the breaking of a law does not make the law not exist. Consider this another period of time where the Pope's hands are tied by powerful and disobedient forces in distant lands.
As to your present complaint, Pastor Aeternus claims:
This power of the Supreme Pontiff by no means detracts from that ordinary and immediate power of episcopal jurisdiction, by which bishops, who have succeeded to the place of the apostles by appointment of the Holy Spirit, tend and govern individually the particular flocks which have been assigned to them. On the contrary, this power of theirs is asserted, supported and defended by the Supreme and Universal Pastor; for St. Gregory the Great says: "My honor is the honor of the whole Church. My honor is the steadfast strength of my brethren. Then do I receive true honor, when it is denied to none of those to whom honor is due."
Vatican, part II expands on this disclaimer (Lumen Gentium):
The individual bishops, who are placed in charge of particular churches, exercise their pastoral government over the portion of the People of God committed to their care, and not over other churches nor over the universal Church. But each of them, as a member of the episcopal college and legitimate successor of the apostles, is obliged by Christ's institution and command to be solicitous for the whole Church,...Bishops, as successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord, to whom was given all power in heaven and on earth, the mission to teach all nations and to preach the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain to salvation by faith, baptism and the fulfilment of the commandments. To fulfill this mission, Christ the Lord promised the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, and on Pentecost day sent the Spirit from heaven, by whose power they would be witnesses to Him before the nations and peoples and kings even to the ends of the earth. And that duty, which the Lord committed to the shepherds of His people, is a true service, which in sacred literature is significantly called "diakonia" or ministry.(...For bishops are preachers of the faith, who lead new disciples to Christ, and they are authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach to the people committed to them the faith they must believe and put into practice, and by the light of the Holy Spirit illustrate that faith. They bring forth from the treasury of Revelation new things and old, making it bear fruit and vigilantly warding off any errors that threaten their flock. Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. ...Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they nevertheless proclaim Christ's doctrine infallibly whenever, even though dispersed through the world, but still maintaining the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, and authentically teaching matters of faith and morals, they are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held,...The pastoral office or the habitual and daily care of their sheep is entrusted to them completely; nor are they to be regarded as vicars of the Roman Pontiffs, for they exercise an authority that is proper to them, and are quite correctly called "prelates," heads of the people whom they govern. Their power, therefore, is not destroyed by the supreme and universal power, but on the contrary it is affirmed, strengthened and vindicated by it, since the Holy Spirit unfailingly preserves the form of government established by Christ the Lord in His Church.
upon which the CCC states:
The teaching office
888 Bishops, with priests as co-workers, have as their first task "to preach the Gospel of God to all men," in keeping with the Lord's command.415 They are "heralds of faith, who draw new disciples to Christ; they are authentic teachers" of the apostolic faith "endowed with the authority of Christ."416
889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a "supernatural sense of faith" the People of God, under the guidance of the Church's living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith."417
890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. the exercise of this charism takes several forms:
891 "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.... the infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421
892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a "definitive manner," they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent"422 which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.
Such should be enough to support that the "imprimatur" of a Cardinal (and one personally intimately connected so close in time to his predecessor cardinal who voted for Pastor Aeternus) of an instance of an "exercise the papal perrogative" in "the plenitude of his powers" illustrating "the power and character of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff," as Pastor Aeternus puts it, is the Vatican's position. After all, the above claims that the bishops (not to mention a cardinal) exercises the magisterium with their supreme pontiff.
But, as we have discussed, the muddled mess of an ecclesiology that Pastor Aeternus, Lumen Gentium and the CCC make by juxtaposing plausible deniable with mandated certitude basically empties the imprimatur, except perhaps "the supreme pontiff"'s, of authority. Of course, the supreme pontiff could issue imprimaturs ex officio, even cathedra, but that would resolve something and bind him and his successors (and therefore establish a standard to which they can be judged) and so his holiness doesn't. Infalliblity isn't about illuminating anything, it's about erecting an aura around someone.
So we have to go, itself, to only things that have the papal signature, seal or fingerprint. I for one think that Unam Sanctam, Lateran IV and Exsurge Domine express the Vatican's position clear enough, but the present magisterium seems to disagree somewhat.http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29960.msg474174.html#msg474174http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30253.msg488753.html#msg488753http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33045.0.html
According to the definition-as much as there is one-of ex cathedra, the CCC should fit the bill. But alas! I've been told that its is not a magisterial document and not infallible, so I don't know how much citing the CCC is going to help (although you haven't personally stated what your stand of the theological certitude of the CCC is). Even if it is infallible, it doesn't say much as to history, which is what Luberti brought up: if it had, it wouldn't fall within faith and morals, possibly mooting what it had to say anyway.Personally, I am quite convinced that the CCC is not ex cathedra, since it fulfills 2, at most, of the 3 conditions for an ex cathedra statement:
1. Is it on faith and morals? Yes.
2. Was the Pope acting in "his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority"? I really couldn't say whether he was or wasn't.
Do tell your friends. We've had some argument from them on this point:http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30177.0.html
3. Did he [dogmatically] define a doctrine to be held by the whole Church? No, he did not.
Did Vatican II define anything new? We are told no, that it was a "teaching council" (whatever that means). According to its promulgation "for everlasting memory" by the Vatican, the "magisterium" put more effort into it that all the documents of Vatican II.
APOSTOLIC LETTERBtw, if someone has a link to a French version of this letter, I've been looking for one.
IN WHICH THE LATIN TYPICAL EDITION OF THE
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
IS APPROVED AND PROMULGATED
JOHN PAUL, BISHOP
SERVANT OF THE SERVANTS OF GOD
FOR EVERLASTING MEMORY
To my Venerable Brothers the cardinals,
and to all the People of God.
IT IS A CAUSE FOR GREAT JOY THAT THE LATIN TYPICAL EDITION OF THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS BEING PUBLISHED.
It is approved and promulgated by me in this Apostolic Letter and thus becomes the definitive text of the aforementioned Catechism. This is occurring about five years after the Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum of October 11, 1992, which, on the 30th anniversary of the opening of the Second Vatican Council, accompanied the publication of the first, French-language text of the Catechism.
We have all been able to note with pleasure the broad positive reception and wide dissemination of the Catechism in these years, especially in the particular Churches, which have had it translated into their respective languages, thus making it as accessible as possible to the various linguistic communities of the world. This fact confirms how fitting was the request submitted to me in 1985 by the Extraordinary Assembly of the Synod of Bishops that a catechism or compendium of all Catholic doctrine regarding faith and morals be composed.
Drawn up by the special Commission of Cardinals and Bishops established in 1986, the Catechism was approved and promulgated by me in the aforementioned Apostolic Constitution, which today retains all its validity and timeliness, and finds its definitive achievement in this Latin typical edition.
This edition was prepared by an Interdicasterial Commission which I appointed for this purpose in 1993. Presided over by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, this Commission worked diligently to fulfill the mandate it received. It devoted particular attention to a study of the many suggested changes to the contents of the text, which in these years had come from around the world and from various parts of the ecclesial community.
In this regard one can certainly understand that such a remarkable number of suggested improvements shows the extraordinary interest that the Catechism has raised throughout the world, even among non-Christians, and confirms its purpose of being presented as a full, complete exposition of Catholic doctrine, enabling everyone to know what the Church professes, celebrates, lives, and prays in her daily life. At the same time it draws attention to the eager desire of all to make their contribution so that the Christian faith, whose essential and necessary elements are summarized in the Catechism, can be presented to the people of our day in the most suitable way possible. Furthermore, this collaboration of the various members of the Church will once again achieve what I wrote in the Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum: "The harmony of so many voices truly expresses what could be called the 'symphony' of the faith" (no. 2).
For these reasons too, the Commission seriously considered the suggestions offered, carefully examined them at various levels and submitted its conclusions for my approval. These conclusions, insofar as they allow for a better expression of the Catechism's contents regarding the deposit of the Catholic faith, or enable certain truths of this faith to be formulated in a way more suited to the requirements of contemporary catechetical instruction, have been approved by me and thus have been incorporated into this Latin typical edition. Therefore it faithfully repeats the doctrinal content which I officially presented to the Church and to the world in December 1992.
With today's promulgation of the Latin typical edition, therefore, the task of composing the Catechism, begun in 1986, is brought to a close and the desire of the aforementioned Extraordinary Synod of Bishops is happily fulfilled. The Church now has at her disposal this new, authoritative exposition of the one and perennial apostolic faith, and it will serve as a "valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion" and as a "sure norm for teaching the faith," as well as a "sure and authentic reference text" for preparing local catechisms (cf. Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum, no. 4).
Catechesis will find in this genuine, systematic presentation of the faith and of Catholic doctrine a totally reliable way to present, with renewed fervor, each and every part of the Christian message to the people of our time. This text will provide every catechist with sound help for communicating the one, perennial deposit of faith within the local Church, while seeking, with the help of the Holy Spirit, to link the wondrous unity of the Christian mystery with the varied needs and conditions of those to whom this message is addressed. All catechetical activity will be able to experience a new, widespread impetus among the People of God, if it can properly use and appreciate this post-conciliar Catechism.
All this seems even more important today with the approach of the third millennium. For an extraordinary commitment to evangelization is urgently needed so that everyone can know and receive the Gospel message and thus grow "to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (Eph 4:13).
I therefore strongly urge my Venerable Brothers in the Episcopate, for whom the Catechism is primarily intended, to take the excellent opportunity afforded by the promulgation of this Latin edition to intensify their efforts to disseminate the text more widely and to ensure that it is well received as an outstanding gift for the communities entrusted to them, which will thus be able to rediscover the inexhaustible riches of the faith.
Through the harmonious and complementary efforts of all the ranks of the People of God, may this Catechism be known and shared by everyone, so that the unity in faith whose supreme model and origin is found in the Unity of the Trinity may be strengthened and extended to the ends of the earth.
To Mary, Mother of Christ, whose Assumption body and soul into heaven we celebrate today, I entrust these wishes so that they may be brought to fulfillment for the spiritual good of all humanity.
From Castel Gandolfo, August 15, 1997, the nineteenth year of the Pontificate.
Not sure how point 3 is unfulflled. It defines a lot of things that all the faithful are supposed to hold. In fact, it was made, so we are told "for everlasting memory," so that would know what to hold.
Statement that satisfies 1 or 2 of the 3 conditions is not an ex cathedra statement. Q.E.D.
LOL. This has already been dealt with.