Author Topic: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?  (Read 13651 times)

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Offline Ortho_cat

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Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« on: February 21, 2011, 05:06:14 PM »
Praise dance at "The Rock" Catholic Church Saint Louis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aLLsJa9xYY&feature=related

Does Rome see this as a valid expression of worship? If not, what are they doing about it? This is not the only example of this I have found on youtube.

Offline Tony

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2011, 05:11:27 PM »
Is this during a Mass?

Praise dance at "The Rock" Catholic Church Saint Louis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aLLsJa9xYY&feature=related

Does Rome see this as a valid expression of worship? If not, what are they doing about it? This is not the only example of this I have found on youtube.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2011, 05:36:27 PM »
^Not sure about that one, but I'm pretty sure this one is:

Liturgical puppets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU&feature=related
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 05:40:32 PM by Ortho_cat »

Offline Papist

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2011, 07:39:30 PM »
Praise dance at "The Rock" Catholic Church Saint Louis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aLLsJa9xYY&feature=related

Does Rome see this as a valid expression of worship? If not, what are they doing about it? This is not the only example of this I have found on youtube.
A couple of things. First, it's definitely not ok. Second, it's the Bishop's responsibility to deal with this, as the Bishop is the head liturgist of his diocese, not the Pope. Third, some one must report this to the authorities in Rome if the Bishop has done nothing, and hopefully this was done. Fifth, we don't know whether or not the Bishop has done anything about this. Sixth, If it was reported to Rome, it would probably go to the congregation for Divine Worship before getting to the Pope and they or may not have done something. Seventh, if it made it all the way to the Pope (not likely) then he may or may not have done something about it and we simply don't know. Eighth, we know from the Pope's writings that he is against such things. How can I Know if "Rome" did anything or not?
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Jakub

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2011, 07:41:31 PM »
What do I think of this herectical junk ? My phaser is not on stun...
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 07:42:19 PM by Jakub »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2011, 07:54:39 PM »
Praise dance at "The Rock" Catholic Church Saint Louis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aLLsJa9xYY&feature=related

Does Rome see this as a valid expression of worship? If not, what are they doing about it? This is not the only example of this I have found on youtube.
A couple of things. First, it's definitely not ok. Second, it's the Bishop's responsibility to deal with this, as the Bishop is the head liturgist of his diocese, not the Pope. Third, some one must report this to the authorities in Rome if the Bishop has done nothing, and hopefully this was done. Fifth, we don't know whether or not the Bishop has done anything about this. Sixth, If it was reported to Rome, it would probably go to the congregation for Divine Worship before getting to the Pope and they or may not have done something. Seventh, if it made it all the way to the Pope (not likely) then he may or may not have done something about it and we simply don't know. Eighth, we know from the Pope's writings that he is against such things. How can I Know if "Rome" did anything or not?
We can drop in for mass and see if it is still going on.
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2011, 09:32:18 PM »
Well, I'm not so much concerned about this particular Church, but it does seem that issue of liturgical abuse is not an isolated problem . Basically, I was wondering what (if any) statements Rome has made officially condeming these kinds of liturgical abuses, and if they are making efforts to deter or crack down on them in the future.

Here is an example (from a concerned Catholic) which shows more examples of widespread liturgical abuse:

Liturgical Chaos and abuse (part 1):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQPkYwIOCRM


Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2011, 09:53:29 PM »
and to think, a few weeks ago I missed the Roman Catholic Church.  I'm all cured  ;)

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2011, 10:07:26 PM »

Thank, God!    ;)
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Offline wynd

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2011, 10:14:01 PM »
^Not sure about that one, but I'm pretty sure this one is:

Liturgical puppets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU&feature=related

In fairness to the RCC, I think this one was conducted by a known dissident group that was excommunicated.

Edit: Vatican affirms excommunication of Call to Action members in Lincoln
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 10:15:25 PM by wynd »

Offline Papist

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2011, 10:50:39 AM »
Praise dance at "The Rock" Catholic Church Saint Louis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aLLsJa9xYY&feature=related

Does Rome see this as a valid expression of worship? If not, what are they doing about it? This is not the only example of this I have found on youtube.
A couple of things. First, it's definitely not ok. Second, it's the Bishop's responsibility to deal with this, as the Bishop is the head liturgist of his diocese, not the Pope. Third, some one must report this to the authorities in Rome if the Bishop has done nothing, and hopefully this was done. Fifth, we don't know whether or not the Bishop has done anything about this. Sixth, If it was reported to Rome, it would probably go to the congregation for Divine Worship before getting to the Pope and they or may not have done something. Seventh, if it made it all the way to the Pope (not likely) then he may or may not have done something about it and we simply don't know. Eighth, we know from the Pope's writings that he is against such things. How can I Know if "Rome" did anything or not?
We can drop in for mass and see if it is still going on.
Ok, and even if it is, that doesn't mean that it hasn't been addressed. It could mean that the priest is still being disobedient. That being said, I have been Catholic my entire life, and I have never seen this kind of behavior in a mass. I have never seen a clown mass, I have never seen a halloween mass. All of these abberations that you revel in pointing out, are simply not common. I know you would like them to be because you are an incarnation-denying heretic, and hate God's holy Catholic Church, but the reality is that the sweeping majority of Catholic masses are not like what you are railing against here.
 "ncarnation-denying heretic"??  Papist, you know better.  15-day warning dot.  Appeal to Fr. George if you'd like.  -Schultz.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Papist

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2011, 10:54:39 AM »
Well, I'm not so much concerned about this particular Church, but it does seem that issue of liturgical abuse is not an isolated problem . Basically, I was wondering what (if any) statements Rome has made officially condeming these kinds of liturgical abuses, and if they are making efforts to deter or crack down on them in the future.

Here is an example (from a concerned Catholic) which shows more examples of widespread liturgical abuse:

Liturgical Chaos and abuse (part 1):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQPkYwIOCRM


There are indeed liturgical abuses, but the extreme forms are not as nearly as common as some would like to think. As I said above, I have been Catholic for my entire life (nearly thirty years) and I have never seen any of the extreme forms of liturgical abuse. That being said, I think that the Church avoids taking a heavy handed approach because of the damage it could cause. Rather, the Church is slowly ordaining more and more orthodox Chatolic priests to replace the old "Spirit of Vatican II" group that is either retired or nearing retirement. As we see such bishops disappear, things seem to improve. In fact, I have seen things in my diocese vastly improve over the past ten years. Though there is still much work to be done, we are headed in the right direction. I think this whole hippie phase will be seen as a blip on the screen when all is said and done.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline UniversalistGuy

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2011, 11:55:35 AM »
What exactly is the abuse?

Offline akimel

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2011, 11:57:13 AM »

Offline Irish_Melkite

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2011, 01:26:12 PM »
I grew up in a liberal diocese (diocese of Rockford IL) and while many Catholic parishes were "re-inventing" the Mass every time the pastor read a magazine article on "liturgical" things, I had to hold my nose.  I myself have never seen a clown Mass, nor a "puppet" Mass, and I have seen (in California) "Liturgical" dance (to which I got up and left), this type of stuff is rare. 

However, I got sick of altar girls (only one diocese in the USA has banned altar girls to this day, Bishop Fabrian Bruskewitz of Lincoln NE), and guitar Masses and priests doing little more than attempt to entertain their congregations and I now go to a very conservative and traditional Melkite parish in the Washington DC area. 

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2011, 02:09:27 PM »
and to think, a few weeks ago I missed the Roman Catholic Church.  I'm all cured  ;)
Yeah, because this kind of stuff happens so often.  ::)

I will echo what Papist has already said in that I have never seen the liturgical abuses that are allegedly so common in the Catholic Church (at least according to the internet). Of course, if you need to bash us in order to validate your own faith, by all means.....

Offline UniversalistGuy

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2011, 02:27:08 PM »
What exactly is the abuse?

On Liturgical Dance

I followed the link and very early on came to this:

There has not been an express ruling from the Holy See against so-called "liturgical dance…"

So if the Pope hasn’t seen fit to rule against this thing called liturgical dance what exactly is the abuse?

Offline Papist

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2011, 02:28:36 PM »
What exactly is the abuse?

On Liturgical Dance

I followed the link and very early on came to this:

There has not been an express ruling from the Holy See against so-called "liturgical dance…"

So if the Pope hasn’t seen fit to rule against this thing called liturgical dance what exactly is the abuse?
The Rubrics don't call for it, so it is an abuse.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline UniversalistGuy

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2011, 03:04:15 PM »
What are Rubrics?

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2011, 03:05:28 PM »
and to think, a few weeks ago I missed the Roman Catholic Church.  I'm all cured  ;)
Yeah, because this kind of stuff happens so often.  ::)

I will echo what Papist has already said in that I have never seen the liturgical abuses that are allegedly so common in the Catholic Church (at least according to the internet). Of course, if you need to bash us in order to validate your own faith, by all means.....

in all seriousness, I did not mean to bash you.  :) 

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2011, 03:08:18 PM »
What are Rubrics?

The instructions printed for the Mass, which priests are supposed to follow. To Papist, I'd say they're a dead letter if no one bothers enforcing them.
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Offline UniversalistGuy

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2011, 03:31:25 PM »
What are Rubrics?

The instructions printed for the Mass, which priests are supposed to follow. To Papist, I'd say they're a dead letter if no one bothers enforcing them.

Thanks for responding.  I guess I'm alone here in not knowing what Rubrics are.

How is anybody to know whether these Rubrics are being followed or not?  Where are they located?  Who is allowed to have sight of them?  Can they be "interpreted" as so many things are?  And if a priest doesn't follow them or somebody in the congregation doesn't like the priest's interpretation of them, isn't the priest more likely to be in the right?  Priests spend years in seminaries before they serve in parishes, right?

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2011, 03:35:27 PM »
What are Rubrics?

The instructions printed for the Mass, which priests are supposed to follow. To Papist, I'd say they're a dead letter if no one bothers enforcing them.

Thanks for responding.  I guess I'm alone here in not knowing what Rubrics are.

How is anybody to know whether these Rubrics are being followed or not?  Where are they located?  Who is allowed to have sight of them?  Can they be "interpreted" as so many things are?  And if a priest doesn't follow them or somebody in the congregation doesn't like the priest's interpretation of them, isn't the priest more likely to be in the right?  Priests spend years in seminaries before they serve in parishes, right?
I believe the "rubrics" are in the priest's service book.  they are printed in Roman missals.  I'm sure you can find them at the vatican's website; www.vatican.va  it is the responsibility of the bishop to see whether they are being followed.  often, though, it's the congregation complaining to the bishop about the priest.  yes, priests go to seminaries where they learn to follow the rubrics. 

Offline John Larocque

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2011, 03:37:50 PM »
More mundane abuses include the following:

1) use of "extra-ordinary" ministers of (i.e. non-priests and deacons) to distribute communion. The rules are that all available priests at that mass should distribute communion, but often enough, one or more of them will sit back while the laity does the distribution.
2) use of unsuitable instruments, including drums (!?) or anything electric. A kind of half-way point between Orthodox practice (voice only) and the current Catholic one, would be to reduce all non-human instruments to one, mainly as accompaniment or for tuning purposes. The disappearance of Gregorian chant is a post-conciliar abuse.
3) celebrating versus populum.
4) altar girls - tolerated or approved at the highest levels
5) Saturday "vespers" masses (introduced after WWII, intended originally as a temporary measure)

I can't say I'm all that fond of the underlying theology of many of the RCC traditionalists (Anselmian satisfaction theology to explain the sacrifice of the mass), but the focus on the liturgy is the correct one.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 03:38:43 PM by John Larocque »

Offline bogdan

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2011, 03:53:23 PM »
What are Rubrics?

The instructions printed for the Mass, which priests are supposed to follow. To Papist, I'd say they're a dead letter if no one bothers enforcing them.

Thanks for responding.  I guess I'm alone here in not knowing what Rubrics are.

How is anybody to know whether these Rubrics are being followed or not?  Where are they located?  Who is allowed to have sight of them?  Can they be "interpreted" as so many things are?  And if a priest doesn't follow them or somebody in the congregation doesn't like the priest's interpretation of them, isn't the priest more likely to be in the right?  Priests spend years in seminaries before they serve in parishes, right?

Correct me if I'm wrong, Catholics, but this would be an example of rubrics for the Roman Catholic liturgy: http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2011, 03:55:50 PM »
More mundane abuses include the following:

1) use of "extra-ordinary" ministers of (i.e. non-priests and deacons) to distribute communion. The rules are that all available priests at that mass should distribute communion, but often enough, one or more of them will sit back while the laity does the distribution.
2) use of unsuitable instruments, including drums (!?) or anything electric. A kind of half-way point between Orthodox practice (voice only) and the current Catholic one, would be to reduce all non-human instruments to one, mainly as accompaniment or for tuning purposes. The disappearance of Gregorian chant is a post-conciliar abuse.
3) celebrating versus populum.
4) altar girls - tolerated or approved at the highest levels
5) Saturday "vespers" masses (introduced after WWII, intended originally as a temporary measure)

I can't say I'm all that fond of the underlying theology of many of the RCC traditionalists (Anselmian satisfaction theology to explain the sacrifice of the mass), but the focus on the liturgy is the correct one.

yes, I've seen all of these in the RC Church I used to frequent.  I was so suprised to see an "altar girl" in the same vestments as a boy would wear.    my grandmother says that the RC mass lost alot of it's beauty after Vatican II.  there is one church I went to where they had a guy come in and strum a guitar during the hymns.  

Offline Papist

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2011, 04:10:57 PM »
What are Rubrics?

The instructions printed for the Mass, which priests are supposed to follow. To Papist, I'd say they're a dead letter if no one bothers enforcing them.
Most priests follow them. And most bishops enfore them, though no bishop can be everywhere at once.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Papist

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2011, 04:19:32 PM »
More mundane abuses include the following:

1) use of "extra-ordinary" ministers of (i.e. non-priests and deacons) to distribute communion. The rules are that all available priests at that mass should distribute communion, but often enough, one or more of them will sit back while the laity does the distribution.
Even at the most liberal parishes in my diocese, the Priest and Deacon are always involed in the distribution of communion. In fact, I don't think I have ever seen a priest sit back while communion is being distributed.

2) use of unsuitable instruments, including drums (!?) or anything electric. A kind of half-way point between Orthodox practice (voice only) and the current Catholic one, would be to reduce all non-human instruments to one, mainly as accompaniment or for tuning purposes. The disappearance of Gregorian chant is a post-conciliar abuse.
I am not sure that drums and guitars are technically proscribed, but, I do agree with you that sacred music is more fitting and should be the prescribed form of music.

3) celebrating versus populum.
Yes and no. The council never suggested that celebration should be versus populum, but is it an abuse? If it is, then its a nearly universal one. I do agree that ad orientem is the desired mode of celebration.

4) altar girls - tolerated or approved at the highest levels
Not sure that there are currently any rules that prohibit this in the new mass. Though, not having them is more in line with tradition. Does anyone know if there is Catholic canon against female altar servers?

5) Saturday "vespers" masses (introduced after WWII, intended originally as a temporary measure)
I don't think that this is technically an "abuse" under the Novus Ordo, though I will say that it's certainly not preferable.

I can't say I'm all that fond of the underlying theology of many of the RCC traditionalists (Anselmian satisfaction theology to explain the sacrifice of the mass), but the focus on the liturgy is the correct one.
Well, most don't really understand Anselm. :)
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2011, 05:00:09 PM »
There are nearly half a million priests and 1.2 billion Catholics. The Holy See can only do so much.

As Papist said, the local bishop is responsible for the liturgy in his diocese. If he doesn't do anything about grave abuses, then it is on his head when he faces the Lord. I will pray that he does his pastoral duty and worry about my own parish.

There has been an epochal upheaval in Western society and culture over the last few decades, and this tsunami has swamped the Catholic Church. It will take time to recover from the resultant deformations, probably another generation. But it is happening.

Of course, EO who remember the catastrophe of Iconoclasm cannot throw stones. Crises in the Church are nothing new.

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2011, 05:00:10 PM »

Offline UniversalistGuy

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2011, 05:19:13 PM »
What are Rubrics?

The instructions printed for the Mass, which priests are supposed to follow. To Papist, I'd say they're a dead letter if no one bothers enforcing them.

Thanks for responding.  I guess I'm alone here in not knowing what Rubrics are.

How is anybody to know whether these Rubrics are being followed or not?  Where are they located?  Who is allowed to have sight of them?  Can they be "interpreted" as so many things are?  And if a priest doesn't follow them or somebody in the congregation doesn't like the priest's interpretation of them, isn't the priest more likely to be in the right?  Priests spend years in seminaries before they serve in parishes, right?
I believe the "rubrics" are in the priest's service book.  they are printed in Roman missals.  I'm sure you can find them at the vatican's website; www.vatican.va  it is the responsibility of the bishop to see whether they are being followed.  often, though, it's the congregation complaining to the bishop about the priest.  yes, priests go to seminaries where they learn to follow the rubrics. 

Thanks.  I went to the website but I haven’t found them yet.  Mind you, now I’ve been challenged to do some digging I’m not sure if I’m really that interested.  I’m not drawn to some of the modern manifestations of worship.  My own inclination is for an atmosphere of quiet reverence but I certainly welcome melody and harmony.  However, I recognize that not everybody is the same so I don’t necessarily regard the forms of worship that I don’t like as “abuses.”  Catholics are free to use the word “abuse” whenever they see fit, I guess.  If information and commentary on the Internet is a realistic guide the abuses in Catholic worship have Catholics getting really mad at each other.  And given those harsh disagreements about the Mass inside the Catholic Church I think it’s ironic to see Catholic apologists still trying to promote the idea of lex orandi, lex credendi.

Offline akimel

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2011, 06:38:46 PM »
The present state of liturgical celebration in the large majority of (Latin) Catholic Churches in the U.S. is abysmal.  Everything went wrong after Vatican II:  the adoption of the versus populum, the abandonment of ritual and the acceptance of a culture of informality, the building of new churches designed as auditoriums, the elimination of altar rails and the abolition of kneeling for communion, the creation of a song-leader who stands at the microphone in the front of the church, the embrace of charismatic-style music (think St Louis Jesuits and Marty Haugen).  Catholic bishops and liturgists thought they could re-create the ancient liturgical forms to appeal to the populist sensibilities of modern people.  Instead they only succeeded in destroying the Mass. 

Liturgical dance and clown Masses are not the problem.  They are widely acknowledged as abuses, and one does not run into them very often.  What is not so widely acknowledged are the abuses listed above.  What is not so widely acknowledged is the spirit of iconoclasm that has permeated the parishes and seminaries of the Catholic Church.  Pope Benedict understands the problem, but I am dubious whether he or any Pope can effectively restore what has been systematically destroyed over the past five decades.  Certainly the bishops have displayed little inclination to effect significant reform.  Rubrics can be enforced (and that would certainly be an improvement!), but how does one legislate beauty?   How does one overturn the liturgical and cultural expectations that now shape, drive, and fund the parochial Sunday Mass?   

       


Offline James2

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2011, 06:50:08 PM »
Q.  What is the difference between a liturgical reformer and a terrorist?

A.  You can negotiate with a terrorist.

Offline John Larocque

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2011, 07:37:08 PM »
Quote
I can't say I'm all that fond of the underlying theology of many of the RCC traditionalists (Anselmian satisfaction theology to explain the sacrifice of the mass), but the focus on the liturgy is the correct one.

Well, most don't really understand Anselm. :)

The SSPX theologians complain that the Paschal Mystery downplays the crucifiction in favour of the resurrection.

http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/SiSiNoNo/2002_September/Pius_XII.htm

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But the new "Paschal Mystery theology" demands giving the Christ's resurrection at least "as much" salvific value as the death on the Cross and also the rivilege arising from it. This "New Soteriology" i.e., doctrine of salvation) is thick into the Liturgical Movement. Romano Guardini, one of its "fathers" and to whom Cardinal Ratzinger likes to refer, wrote in his II Signore (pp.435-436): "Total clarity on the concept of redemption comes uniquely from the Resurrection."

Elsewhere he wrote:

If anyone asks: "What is redemption; what is it to have redeemed, and to have been redeemed?" the answer ought to be: "It is the Resurrection."

Thus, the Passion and the Death on the Cross are minimalized and annihilated in the glory of the Christ's Resurrection (although the risen hands and feet carry wounds and the heart is opened by a lance). Good Friday is eclipsed by Resurrection Sunday, the glorious reward being substituted for the sorrowful meriting. The "New Soteriology" hides from souls the understanding that no one conforms to the Risen Christ who does not will first to conform (and allow themselves to be conformed) to the Crucified Christ.

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/unmskng.htm

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A study of the new theology of the "Paschal Mystery" however, reveals the basis for the three-point shift of emphasis mentioned in Part One.

I) The new theology explains the diminution, not to say suppression, of the notion of propitiation in the new missal.
II) The new theology of "mysteries" accounts for the innovation regarding the notion of Christ's presence in the Mass. That is, the emphasis of Christ's presence in "His Word and in His people" rather than His unique Sacramental presence in the Holy Eucharist.
III) An understanding of the 'sense' which this new theology gives to the word 'memorial,' which explains the abandoning of the sacrificial rite in favor of the memorial meal.

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2011, 07:39:55 PM »
Quote
I can't say I'm all that fond of the underlying theology of many of the RCC traditionalists (Anselmian satisfaction theology to explain the sacrifice of the mass), but the focus on the liturgy is the correct one.

Well, most don't really understand Anselm. :)

The SSPX theologians complain that the Paschal Mystery downplays the crucifiction in favour of the resurrection.

http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/SiSiNoNo/2002_September/Pius_XII.htm

Quote
But the new "Paschal Mystery theology" demands giving the Christ's resurrection at least "as much" salvific value as the death on the Cross and also the rivilege arising from it. This "New Soteriology" i.e., doctrine of salvation) is thick into the Liturgical Movement. Romano Guardini, one of its "fathers" and to whom Cardinal Ratzinger likes to refer, wrote in his II Signore (pp.435-436): "Total clarity on the concept of redemption comes uniquely from the Resurrection."

Elsewhere he wrote:

If anyone asks: "What is redemption; what is it to have redeemed, and to have been redeemed?" the answer ought to be: "It is the Resurrection."

Thus, the Passion and the Death on the Cross are minimalized and annihilated in the glory of the Christ's Resurrection (although the risen hands and feet carry wounds and the heart is opened by a lance). Good Friday is eclipsed by Resurrection Sunday, the glorious reward being substituted for the sorrowful meriting. The "New Soteriology" hides from souls the understanding that no one conforms to the Risen Christ who does not will first to conform (and allow themselves to be conformed) to the Crucified Christ.

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/unmskng.htm

Quote
A study of the new theology of the "Paschal Mystery" however, reveals the basis for the three-point shift of emphasis mentioned in Part One.

I) The new theology explains the diminution, not to say suppression, of the notion of propitiation in the new missal.
II) The new theology of "mysteries" accounts for the innovation regarding the notion of Christ's presence in the Mass. That is, the emphasis of Christ's presence in "His Word and in His people" rather than His unique Sacramental presence in the Holy Eucharist.
III) An understanding of the 'sense' which this new theology gives to the word 'memorial,' which explains the abandoning of the sacrificial rite in favor of the memorial meal.

Are you citing the SSPX as reliable information on Catholicism? LOL
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Shiny

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2011, 07:45:22 PM »
Didn't SSPX join back in the fold with the rest of the RCC?
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2011, 07:49:16 PM »
Didn't SSPX join back in the fold with the rest of the RCC?
Sorta kinda but not really. The excommunication has been lifted, but that are still in an irregular status, not having full communion.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2011, 08:38:07 PM »
5) Saturday "vespers" masses (introduced after WWII, intended originally as a temporary measure)

Taking into account that evening is the beginning of the liturgical day, I find a saturday evening liturgy to be far less offensive than the sunday evening liturgies that I've heard of some RC churches doing. While I don't think that (prior) evening liturgies should be out of the question, I do think they should be the exception and not regularly done.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2011, 02:14:23 PM »
They are like ROCOR was 10 years ago.

Offline UniversalistGuy

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2011, 02:44:52 PM »

You want rubrics? Here are the norms governing the celebration of the new Mass of Paul VI:

General Instruction on the Roman Missal (GIRM)
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/GIRM.HTM&ved=0CBsQFjAD&usg=AFQjCNFQ1XXHKTPdeYZyCLFzvVY92zDRfQ

Here are relevant liturgical constitutions governing the celebration of the new Mass:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrosanctum_Concilium

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20070222_sacramentum-caritatis_en.html

Thank you.  I managed three out of four.  The first link – the General Instruction on the Roman Missal (GIRM) – I couldn’t get to work.

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2011, 03:13:45 PM »
What are Rubrics?

The instructions printed for the Mass, which priests are supposed to follow. To Papist, I'd say they're a dead letter if no one bothers enforcing them.

Thanks for responding.  I guess I'm alone here in not knowing what Rubrics are.

How is anybody to know whether these Rubrics are being followed or not?  Where are they located?  Who is allowed to have sight of them?  Can they be "interpreted" as so many things are?  And if a priest doesn't follow them or somebody in the congregation doesn't like the priest's interpretation of them, isn't the priest more likely to be in the right?  Priests spend years in seminaries before they serve in parishes, right?
I believe the "rubrics" are in the priest's service book.  they are printed in Roman missals.  I'm sure you can find them at the vatican's website; www.vatican.va  it is the responsibility of the bishop to see whether they are being followed.  often, though, it's the congregation complaining to the bishop about the priest.  yes, priests go to seminaries where they learn to follow the rubrics. 


The Paulist Center, in Boston, was the worse for liturgical abuse. I was "allowed" to work on my Master's in Liturgical Studies at Notre Dame.  But, our guardian (Franciscans) told me I was going to a too liberal school, in his opinion.  Well, one of the so-called liberal priests told us if we wanted to experiment with the Liturgy we should use what was given in the Sacramentary.  In other words only do what the Church prescribes.  When I got back from my 1st summer semester, I could not get the priests to do what was called for.  Each one did as he felt.  That was one of the major things that sent me running to the Orthodox Church.  When I was forced to take a leave-of-absence, I left by walking to the car, and not turning back I wiped the dust from my sandals.  And then immediately sought out the Orthodox Church and within a year was chrismated.  So in a way, thank God for the abuses I saw in the Franciscans...its because of them I'm Orthodox.
The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2011, 04:28:34 PM »
Yesterday when I posted those links, I did it on my phone. The first link is broken.

Here is another link for the General Instruction of the Roman Missal:

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml

Offline UniversalistGuy

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2011, 04:55:39 PM »
Yesterday when I posted those links, I did it on my phone. The first link is broken.

Here is another link for the General Instruction of the Roman Missal:

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml

Thank you much.  You're most kind.

Offline UniversalistGuy

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Re: Catholics, what is your opinion of this?
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2011, 05:06:42 PM »
What are Rubrics?

The instructions printed for the Mass, which priests are supposed to follow. To Papist, I'd say they're a dead letter if no one bothers enforcing them.

Thanks for responding.  I guess I'm alone here in not knowing what Rubrics are.

How is anybody to know whether these Rubrics are being followed or not?  Where are they located?  Who is allowed to have sight of them?  Can they be "interpreted" as so many things are?  And if a priest doesn't follow them or somebody in the congregation doesn't like the priest's interpretation of them, isn't the priest more likely to be in the right?  Priests spend years in seminaries before they serve in parishes, right?
I believe the "rubrics" are in the priest's service book.  they are printed in Roman missals.  I'm sure you can find them at the vatican's website; www.vatican.va  it is the responsibility of the bishop to see whether they are being followed.  often, though, it's the congregation complaining to the bishop about the priest.  yes, priests go to seminaries where they learn to follow the rubrics. 


The Paulist Center, in Boston, was the worse for liturgical abuse. I was "allowed" to work on my Master's in Liturgical Studies at Notre Dame.  But, our guardian (Franciscans) told me I was going to a too liberal school, in his opinion.  Well, one of the so-called liberal priests told us if we wanted to experiment with the Liturgy we should use what was given in the Sacramentary.  In other words only do what the Church prescribes.  When I got back from my 1st summer semester, I could not get the priests to do what was called for.  Each one did as he felt.  That was one of the major things that sent me running to the Orthodox Church.  When I was forced to take a leave-of-absence, I left by walking to the car, and not turning back I wiped the dust from my sandals.  And then immediately sought out the Orthodox Church and within a year was chrismated.  So in a way, thank God for the abuses I saw in the Franciscans...its because of them I'm Orthodox.

So if I understand you correctly, you’re stating that you converted from Catholicism to Orthodoxy and the impetus for you doing so was that the Catholic priests you encountered displayed a spirit of rebellion against the Catholic Church.

Have I rightly described what happened?