OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 30, 2014, 10:36:47 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Tarot and Casting Lots  (Read 4592 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
quietmorning
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,339


St. Photini


WWW
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2011, 12:03:22 AM »

Heh. . .again (putting this squarely in my own lap) I mis-read. . .one of your posts. . .you were quoting a 'thought' or something you thought someone was meaning, maybe. . .not sure. . .that you read the cards? 

I took it as you do read. . .again, I apologize. . .if this is for someone else. . .or just to get some answers, again, I hope this was helpful.
Logged

In His Mercy,
BethAnna
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2011, 12:06:36 AM »

You have certainly been helpful in every way Quietmorning! I wanted to deal with this thought:
Quote
But let's unpack that and strip it down for a moment. . .what does the last card in the spread tell you?  Isn't it the result of all the other cards if you stay on the path?  And isn't there a future event card opposite (depending on the spread) of the past event card?
Isn't the future card based on the past and present card? So it can be viewed as portraying a pattern of action within the individual's personality. How one usually reacts in a certain situation. So from that perspective how could it be seen as predicting the future, in the sense that you are speaking?
Logged
Tallitot
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,644



WWW
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2011, 02:13:59 AM »

Tarot cards are baloney, just like astrology and ouiji boards. A bunch of bull's hit.
Logged

Proverbs 22:7
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,928



« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2011, 02:36:58 AM »

Just to throw another related hat in the ring:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/astrology.html
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,536



« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2011, 11:47:35 AM »

Previous discussion: "Is it a sin to flip a coin?"
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9205.0.html

You are my hero.  Can't wait to read this.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2011, 12:20:32 PM »

Previous discussion: "Is it a sin to flip a coin?"
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9205.0.html

You are my hero.  Can't wait to read this.
I don't think he posted this as a joke. It does have an application to the discussion.
BTW, I live in Ohio, orthonorm. Any chance we could grab a beer before Lent without a plane ticket?
Logged
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2011, 02:06:37 PM »

I found this on the Catholic Answers forum and laughed my butt off:
Quote
I actually am creating a Catholic tarot. I've got a few of the Major Arcana worked out:

0—The Fool: Yes, you. Playing with Tarots? You're going to hell.
VII—The Chariot: Remove the horses, it's a handcart – that you're going to hell in.
V—The Pope: …says infallibly you're going to hell.
XIII—Death: The wages of sin! You're going to hell.
IX—The Hermit: You can run, you can hide, but you're still going to hell.
X—The Wheel of Fortune: Buy a vowel: Y__'r_ g__ng t_ h_ll.
XX—Judgement: Yeah, you're in for it. The Judgement is…you're going to hell.
XXI—The World: What does this profit you, when you're going to hell?
Lol!  Cheesy
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,536



« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2011, 04:10:46 PM »

FWIW, probably the single greatest thinker about the "occult / psychotherapeutic" use of the tarot was Aleister Crowley, a very misunderstood man.

He would not suffer the newage (rhymes with sewage) fools lightly who use tarot for "fortune telling".

Again not sure of benefit reading Crowley would be for any Orthodox Christian, except for academic / educational reasons.

One of the most interesting things about Crowley was his PWNing Hubbard long before the latter had any notoriety among the hoi polloi.

If just for lulz, google around for Hubbard and Jack Parsons.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2011, 04:23:09 PM »

Oh, I am well aware of Hubbard and Parson's relationship. Sheds a lot of light on Scientology as well.
Logged
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2011, 04:27:07 PM »

To get back on topic, perhaps Quietmorning or others could comment on this:
Quote
Isn't the future card based on the past and present card? So it can be viewed as portraying a pattern of action within the individual's personality. How one usually reacts in a certain situation. So from that perspective how could it be seen as predicting the future, in the sense that you are speaking?
Logged
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2011, 06:04:56 PM »

To get back on topic, perhaps Quietmorning or others could comment on this:
Quote
Isn't the future card based on the past and present card? So it can be viewed as portraying a pattern of action within the individual's personality. How one usually reacts in a certain situation. So from that perspective how could it be seen as predicting the future, in the sense that you are speaking?
I think you're talking about Tarot as a means of self-knowledge, knowing one's strengths and limitations, somewhat how astrology is used in the West. It may be true that Tarot and astrology -- if properly used -- can give insight into one's personality, but the all too common mistake is to take this "personality" as static, unchanging, and an infallible guide to making choices. In short, the all too common mistake is the fall into fatalism, into thinking that the Tarot spread or the astrological chart is "you" or determines who "you" are. Such submission to the occultic arts is a type of materialism, perhaps not "scientific materialism," but materialism nonetheless. However, we don't reject science just because of the danger of scientific materialism. Likewise, one need not blindly reject Tarot just because of the danger of "occultic materialism". Instead, one can interpret and digest Tarot along Christian lines, each Tarot card representing different aspects of the Divine Person or the divine life. (The Fool, for instance, might symbolize the Holy Fools; The Hanged Man looks very similar to the process of St. Peter's martyrdom.) Used in such a way, Tarot can lead one towards God and neighbor, rather than towards self and ego.

Whether anyone uses the Tarot in this way, or whether the Tarot should be used in this way, is a different question. Perhaps such a use of the Tarot can be a bridge over which someone travels from selfish occultism to true Religion.

Just so you know, I'm not a witch.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 06:09:37 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2011, 06:39:30 PM »

Quote
Instead, one can interpret and digest Tarot along Christian lines, each Tarot card representing different aspects of the Divine Person or the divine life. (The Fool, for instance, might symbolize the Holy Fools; The Hanged Man looks very similar to the process of St. Peter's martyrdom.) Used in such a way, Tarot can lead one towards God and neighbor, rather than towards self and ego.
Interesting thought...
Logged
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2011, 07:22:55 PM »

Thought that these were pretty interesting to say the least:

They are called Golden Tarot of the Tsar for some reason.
Logged
quietmorning
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,339


St. Photini


WWW
« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2011, 07:49:07 PM »

To get back on topic, perhaps Quietmorning or others could comment on this:
Quote
Isn't the future card based on the past and present card? So it can be viewed as portraying a pattern of action within the individual's personality. How one usually reacts in a certain situation. So from that perspective how could it be seen as predicting the future, in the sense that you are speaking?

I don't have much time - running off to a meeting, but will hopefully give this the time it deserves when I get home.  

But in the mean time, I might leave this as something to think about.  The card is a card.  No more no less.  The definition of the card is induced by the reader according to the either tradition or intuition.  The card has no power to tell what one card means or another card means in order to dress itself to mean another meaning.  Nor does it have the power . . .or intellect to decide what that should mean to you.  

It is in our own minds - as our minds work this way, always reaching to fill in the blanks - that we attach meaning to our own past, present and then therefore future.  You (and any other who might be interested) might want to look at what the suggestion does to any mind - its a powerful thing.  The cards pictures on the cards 'suggest' an event. . .the mind goes about working on it to bring it about. . .if the card suggests the card of ten swords, what does that bring into one's life?  It all depends on the person viewing.  

The cards are not powerful.  Our minds certainly are - we can wrap ourselves up into delusion to the point where our whole world is not anything close to the truth.  

To answer your question.  No - I am not inclined to think the cards portray a pattern of anything in particular - but I am inclined to think that we attach meaning to enable a pattern to suit our own comfort level... and if we are still believing that it is the cards, then we delude ourselves. . .and fall into fantasy.  As much as fantasy can be appealing, it's just that. . . it isn't life. It isn't the fullness of life.  He died to give us life and give it abundantly.  Who am I to look at Him and say it's not good enough?  

If you WANT to define it as something that will help you deal with a future 'possibility' aren't you selling yourself short?  Out of ALL the possibilities in His INFINITE wisdom, why give yourself the option of only ONE?  Or two or three or how many you decide to play the deck?  Why not wait to see what He will do?  I guarantee it is worlds better than your or my two ways of doing things.  We are so short sighted. . .and here we go forcing Hand?  

Heh.  

Off to my meeting.  

I. will. be. back. Wink
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 07:51:51 PM by quietmorning » Logged

In His Mercy,
BethAnna
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2011, 10:10:44 PM »

Quote
If you WANT to define it as something that will help you deal with a future 'possibility' aren't you selling yourself short?  Out of ALL the possibilities in His INFINITE wisdom, why give yourself the option of only ONE?  Or two or three or how many you decide to play the deck?  Why not wait to see what He will do?  I guarantee it is worlds better than your or my two ways of doing things.  We are so short sighted. . .and here we go forcing Hand?
That's what I was getting at earlier. It seems the cards show possible outcomes based on previous personality traits and decisions. I don't see how that limits a person in making a different choice from their own freewill.
Logged
Tallitot
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,644



WWW
« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2011, 10:23:02 PM »

Quote
If you WANT to define it as something that will help you deal with a future 'possibility' aren't you selling yourself short?  Out of ALL the possibilities in His INFINITE wisdom, why give yourself the option of only ONE?  Or two or three or how many you decide to play the deck?  Why not wait to see what He will do?  I guarantee it is worlds better than your or my two ways of doing things.  We are so short sighted. . .and here we go forcing Hand?
That's what I was getting at earlier. It seems the cards show possible outcomes based on previous personality traits and decisions. I don't see how that limits a person in making a different choice from their own freewill.
I think it's more that the card reader can show possible outcomes based on thier ability to do cold readings, read body language, ask vague leading questions and put on a good enough show to make you think they somehow read your fortune. The only time cards can determine your future is if you break the Baccarat table at Monte Carlo.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 10:23:28 PM by Tallitot » Logged

Proverbs 22:7
quietmorning
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,339


St. Photini


WWW
« Reply #61 on: February 21, 2011, 10:26:58 PM »

Quote
If you WANT to define it as something that will help you deal with a future 'possibility' aren't you selling yourself short?  Out of ALL the possibilities in His INFINITE wisdom, why give yourself the option of only ONE?  Or two or three or how many you decide to play the deck?  Why not wait to see what He will do?  I guarantee it is worlds better than your or my two ways of doing things.  We are so short sighted. . .and here we go forcing Hand?
That's what I was getting at earlier. It seems the cards show possible outcomes based on previous personality traits and decisions. I don't see how that limits a person in making a different choice from their own freewill.

I don't think it limits a person from making a different choice from their own free will.  And I never said as such. 

What I did say is that it's putting your trust in something other than God. 
I did say that it is not like the Christian or Judaic form of choosing lots. 
I did say that the use in intent is completely different from the use in intent of the Christian/Judaic form of choosing lots.
I did say that the guidance usages from Tarot is completely different from the Christian/Judaic form of choosing lots. 

If the last form of rationalization is based on whether this is a good way of making choices?  **shrugs**
Personally, for myself, I wouldn't do it.   I love the people in my life too much.  I'd much rather be and I'd much rather my children, my brothers and sisters, my parents, my friends, my neighbors be in the hand of God and not in the whim of a card lay out.  Any day of the week.

Is it a personal choice?  Is it free will to do or don't?  To believe 'the cards' are truly leading your life?  To not continue this relationship with the person across the street because the cards 'suggest' that if you continue this person will drive you to being broke?  What of loving your neighbor?  Or your enemy?  Or doing for others what you would want them to do for you?  It makes something so simple and beautiful - rich and deep. . .and breathtaking. . .complicated, rational, relative, and selfish.  A personal choice?  Free will?

Sure it is, we all have free will, but the choice always always always falls between life and death.  Again, choose this day who you will serve.  A cup is being offered to you, one of life, one of death. 

Know the seriousness of what you (whoever you is that reads and chooses between) must decide. 
Logged

In His Mercy,
BethAnna
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,536



« Reply #62 on: February 21, 2011, 10:27:21 PM »

Quote
If you WANT to define it as something that will help you deal with a future 'possibility' aren't you selling yourself short?  Out of ALL the possibilities in His INFINITE wisdom, why give yourself the option of only ONE?  Or two or three or how many you decide to play the deck?  Why not wait to see what He will do?  I guarantee it is worlds better than your or my two ways of doing things.  We are so short sighted. . .and here we go forcing Hand?
That's what I was getting at earlier. It seems the cards show possible outcomes based on previous personality traits and decisions. I don't see how that limits a person in making a different choice from their own freewill.
I think it's more that the card reader can show possible outcomes based on thier ability to do cold readings, read body language, ask vague leading questions and put on a good enough show to make you think they somehow read your fortune. The only time cards can determine your future is if you break the Baccarat table at Monte Carlo.

Echo much?
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2011, 12:26:26 AM »

Quietmorning, you seem to know quite a bit about the Tarot. Have you had experiences with them? Or was it someone close to you? I would love to hear your story. If you would feel more comfortable doing so through PM that's fine as well. It seems that you are one of the only ones on this thread that takes the use of the tarot to the point of it sending a person to hell. Which is a perfectly fine opinion to hold. I bet it has been arrived at by experience. I could be wrong though.
Logged
quietmorning
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,339


St. Photini


WWW
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2011, 12:49:46 AM »

Yeah the original use of the Tarot cards were just that, playing card games. The confusion I have is this: casting lots were used to consult God about a decision that needed to be made. This sounds a lot like Tarot to me. Most Tarot practitioners will say that the cards do not reveal the future, because the future is not set in stone. So the argument that one could get hooked because of an ego/power trip seems unlikely.

(Misread your post, I apologize.)

Well, you are ultimately the one who will have to decide, but this was what I grew up with and what I witnessed.

The lots were used for a decision that needed to be made for the sake of the community - Saul went to a soothsayer to get INDIVIDUAL. . . attention and got into a world of trouble because of it.  The enemy knows just how to hook our ego's - and before you know it we're powerless in our 'perceived' power trip.  Like I said, lots were simple. . .yes or no. . .this one was the one who did this. . that one will go there.  The enemy likes to put up a bunch of distractions and makes things complicated so that if this hook doesn't work by goodness there are thirty more to keep you tied up and gagged from being the true warrior you are meant to be.  

And from trusting the One God.  


It's perfectly ok to stand alone. 

« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 12:52:33 AM by quietmorning » Logged

In His Mercy,
BethAnna
quietmorning
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,339


St. Photini


WWW
« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2011, 12:56:55 AM »

Quietmorning, you seem to know quite a bit about the Tarot. Have you had experiences with them? Or was it someone close to you? I would love to hear your story. If you would feel more comfortable doing so through PM that's fine as well. It seems that you are one of the only ones on this thread that takes the use of the tarot to the point of it sending a person to hell. Which is a perfectly fine opinion to hold. I bet it has been arrived at by experience. I could be wrong though.

No, I don't believe the Tarot can send a person to hell.  The cards can sit in the box and not harm a soul.  Just like a gun, it's not the gun, it's the hand that pulls the trigger.

But we certainly can choose what we will or won't do, and how we will interpret what we will or won't do - and THAT certainly can.
Logged

In His Mercy,
BethAnna
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2011, 01:09:44 AM »

So, are you saying that the Tarot is harmless then? Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. Because in the right hands a gun can save lives; it can rescue.
Logged
quietmorning
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,339


St. Photini


WWW
« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2011, 08:57:26 AM »

**laughing**

oye. 

If I took the cards and put them in my front pocket to keep a bullet from getting to my heart - they MIGHT save my life.   Wink

I'm saying that it is man's heart and the things that gush forward from it that harms.  If the tarot were PLAYED as the CARD GAME it was originally intended to be?  Maybe. . . in 'reading them'?  No, in my humble opinion man's interpretation draws his ego out and he thinks  he actually has control . . . brings his heart and mind OFF of God.  No, I don't think any good can possibly come out of that.

We're so good at deceiving ourselves. 
Logged

In His Mercy,
BethAnna
quietmorning
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,339


St. Photini


WWW
« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2011, 09:21:27 AM »

Something that might make this more clear:

When I was a little girl, in school there was a game where we folded a piece of paper into a star with yes and no answers in it, and then little handwritten sayings in it when it was completely opened up.  We would say a rhyme and then have the person pick a piece of the star and read it.. .it was supposed to tell our fortune on something like - will this boy like me - etc.  We all KNEW it was a game.  It wasn't going to be true, it was all in fun, and ONLY all in fun.  

There is no harm in THIS.

When someone sits down to have their reading done - he/she puts their trust in the reader, not in God.  When the reader concentrates and then does a card lay out - he/she is putting their trust in the cards, not in God.  There IS harm in this.  

May I ask you a question?  What is the difference between going to a reader and asking for a reading. . .and going to your icon corner and asking God to help you?  Or lead you?  Or give you wisdom?  Or asking the reader to . . .'just pray for me'.  

Or what is the difference between the reader sitting down and consulting the cards and telling the person, "Lord have mercy, I will continue to pray for you?"  

Trust.  

Who do you trust?  The cards or God?  

This isn't about whether Tarot cards are good bad or indifferent, this is about whether you will leave your life in His hands or whether you trust only your own . . . and a deck of cards to show you how to use your hands.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 09:23:00 AM by quietmorning » Logged

In His Mercy,
BethAnna
Tags: Tarot Casting lots Divination  
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.088 seconds with 51 queries.