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Author Topic: Tarot and Casting Lots  (Read 5071 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 20, 2011, 04:53:52 PM »

This just popped in my head and wanted to know what you guys thought about it. There are many instances in the Scriptures to casting lots. Could the Tarot be seen as a modern form of casting lots?
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« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2011, 05:26:41 PM »

IMHO.

NO.

I don't think Tarot or IChing or Runes or any other kind of divination is the same as casting lots.   The whole concept of where the 'answer" comes from and HOW the answer comes is totally different from casting lots.  Totally different.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 05:27:15 PM by quietmorning » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2011, 05:39:20 PM »

IMHO.

NO.

I don't think Tarot or IChing or Runes or any other kind of divination is the same as casting lots.   The whole concept of where the 'answer" comes from and HOW the answer comes is totally different from casting lots.  Totally different.

Could you elaborate? From what I understand there is no fixed idea of how runes/tarot etc works.
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2011, 06:25:00 PM »

IMHO.

NO.

I don't think Tarot or IChing or Runes or any other kind of divination is the same as casting lots.   The whole concept of where the 'answer" comes from and HOW the answer comes is totally different from casting lots.  Totally different.

Could you elaborate? From what I understand there is no fixed idea of how runes/tarot etc works.

Casting lots:
1) To:  The One God who Is (The Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit)
2) Is used to find a person who has sinned or a person (or group of people) who should be given responsibility, or whether or not a war should be fought.  There may be other examples in scripture, but for now I can't think of them.)
3) Prayer within the community under the leadership of the Church (Even in the Old Testament - under the direction of the High Priest) for the sake of the church / community
4) The answer of choosing lots (or The Urim and Tummim) is completely clear, totally simple. . .yes or no.  This one or that one.  Nothing more nothing less.  ("Let your yes be yes and your no be no, anything more than this is from the evil one.")
5.)  Lots and The Urim and Tummim are based on one thing and one thing only OBEDIENCE TO THE ONE GOD.  

Tarot:
1) To - the cards (making the cards themselves an idol)
2) Used to for an individual of the results of the current pathway if nothing changes. (Used for 'premonition' so that one can control an event by making a guess of choices to change if an event if something isn't seen as favorable or will rise expectations if something or someone may have some favorable outcome.
3) Is usually centered on desires based on the worldly issues.  (Love interest, travel, business decisions, money, 'bad omens', 'good omens'.)
4. Scenerio of the cards is usually very complicated and can be 'read' and interpreted usually on the 'insight' of the reader.  The reader is usually in a semi trance of reading, opening themselves up to the 'cards' on a spiritual level.
5. The person reading or the person receiving the reading often get hooked into the readings because there is a false belief that knowing what comes next (or actually, BELIEVING what is coming if they do this or that) gives them a false lead of control.  Tarot reading is not about obeying the cards (the god of the cards) but about BEING a god with a tool that suggests we are able to control things with this so called 'knowledge'.  The same sin in the garden of eden.  

Runes:

Runes are much much older than the Tarot, but run with the same usage as the Tarot.  They are a bit less complicated, but the answers are still very complicated.  The results are the same.  The reader is the same.  The god is the ruins.  The need for control is the same.

IChing:  
This is the Book of Change - and you do not ask the coins or sticks or even the book a question - but there is a question.  A reader is not necessary as the book of change (IChing) already has the readings written according to the fall of the coins.  There is quite a bit of eastern wisdom that might be worth some study - but the result is the same as the Tarot and the Runes - seeking to control by having the inside info. . .and therefore gaining 'knowledge' to become godlike.  Studying the book WITHOUT the throwing the coin or sticks may be worth something - but the minute the coins are brought in, it becomes the same need to control tomorrow again.  

So, bottom line. . . I'll ask what the motive is. . . to help your church move forward or to help someone (or yourself) know what tomorrow will bring if you do this or that?  

Choose this day who you will serve. You cannot have two masters.  Serve life or serve death, that's the only question there really is.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 06:43:22 PM by quietmorning » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2011, 06:34:43 PM »

alt.tarot

one of the finest early examples of what trolling is and ain't.

Buddy of mine is a "card game" expert. When he started showing up on alt.tarot to bring facts to their fiction about their "magical cards", he was called a troll. Back then trolls were welcome, because discussion was wanted. He ended up the resident guru of the group.

He eventually wrote the book on tarot.

A lot of fun game variations to be had.

Tarot is a deck of cards used for all sortsa reasons from the begininning, most being passing the time playing a game to gamble, which then developed into another gambling system with a person gambling with their money to get insight into their future or past or whatever. The house always wins in the latter varient.

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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2011, 06:36:37 PM »

alt.tarot

one of the finest early examples of what trolling is and ain't.

Buddy of mine is a "card game" expert. When he started showing up on alt.tarot to bring facts to their fiction about their "magical cards", he was called a troll. Back then trolls were welcome, because discussion was wanted. He ended up the resident guru of the group.

He eventually wrote the book on tarot.

A lot of fun game variations to be had.

Tarot is a deck of cards used for all sortsa reasons from the begininning, most being passing the time playing a game to gamble, which then developed into another gambling system with a person gambling with their money to get insight into their future or past or whatever. The house always wins in the latter varient.

**laughing**

I stand corrected.  **grins**

It's the latter variant where the house always wins that is way not even close to 'choosing lots'.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 06:38:20 PM by quietmorning » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2011, 06:40:38 PM »

alt.tarot

one of the finest early examples of what trolling is and ain't.

Buddy of mine is a "card game" expert. When he started showing up on alt.tarot to bring facts to their fiction about their "magical cards", he was called a troll. Back then trolls were welcome, because discussion was wanted. He ended up the resident guru of the group.

He eventually wrote the book on tarot.

A lot of fun game variations to be had.

Tarot is a deck of cards used for all sortsa reasons from the begininning, most being passing the time playing a game to gamble, which then developed into another gambling system with a person gambling with their money to get insight into their future or past or whatever. The house always wins in the latter varient.

**laughing**

I stand corrected.  **grins**

It's the latter variant where the house always wins that is way not even close to 'choosing lots'.



What about choosing straws? Wink
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« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2011, 06:42:17 PM »

alt.tarot

one of the finest early examples of what trolling is and ain't.

Buddy of mine is a "card game" expert. When he started showing up on alt.tarot to bring facts to their fiction about their "magical cards", he was called a troll. Back then trolls were welcome, because discussion was wanted. He ended up the resident guru of the group.

He eventually wrote the book on tarot.

A lot of fun game variations to be had.

Tarot is a deck of cards used for all sortsa reasons from the begininning, most being passing the time playing a game to gamble, which then developed into another gambling system with a person gambling with their money to get insight into their future or past or whatever. The house always wins in the latter varient.

**laughing**

I stand corrected.  **grins**

It's the latter variant where the house always wins that is way not even close to 'choosing lots'.



What about choosing straws? Wink

HAHAHAHAHA!!

**insta-pic of straws up the nose**

well. . .heh. . . just be careful with where they end up. 
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« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2011, 06:42:58 PM »

Yeah the original use of the Tarot cards were just that, playing card games. The confusion I have is this: casting lots were used to consult God about a decision that needed to be made. This sounds a lot like Tarot to me. Most Tarot practitioners will say that the cards do not reveal the future, because the future is not set in stone. So the argument that one could get hooked because of an ego/power trip seems unlikely.
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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2011, 06:50:23 PM »

Yeah the original use of the Tarot cards were just that, playing card games. The confusion I have is this: casting lots were used to consult God about a decision that needed to be made. This sounds a lot like Tarot to me. Most Tarot practitioners will say that the cards do not reveal the future, because the future is not set in stone. So the argument that one could get hooked because of an ego/power trip seems unlikely.

(Misread your post, I apologize.)

Well, you are ultimately the one who will have to decide, but this was what I grew up with and what I witnessed.

The lots were used for a decision that needed to be made for the sake of the community - Saul went to a soothsayer to get INDIVIDUAL. . . attention and got into a world of trouble because of it.  The enemy knows just how to hook our ego's - and before you know it we're powerless in our 'perceived' power trip.  Like I said, lots were simple. . .yes or no. . .this one was the one who did this. . that one will go there.  The enemy likes to put up a bunch of distractions and makes things complicated so that if this hook doesn't work by goodness there are thirty more to keep you tied up and gagged from being the true warrior you are meant to be.  

And from trusting the One God.  

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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2011, 06:51:55 PM »

Yeah the original use of the Tarot cards were just that, playing card games. The confusion I have is this: casting lots were used to consult God about a decision that needed to be made. This sounds a lot like Tarot to me. Most Tarot practitioners will say that the cards do not reveal the future, because the future is not set in stone. So the argument that one could get hooked because of an ego/power trip seems unlikely.

If you want decent infos on tarot for real (pointless in my opinion) see if they have archives from alt.tarot from about 1991-1994.

Most Tarot dealers (lulz at practitioners) are probably just semi-well-meaning folk trying to squeeze an extra dime and are terrible at what they do.

Some are naturally good cold readers and could do the same thing they do with any set of objects which are loaded with some vague meaning for the person approaching them.

As far as the demonic stuff that might be brought up. I don't think God wastes much of his time on nonsense and neither does Satan. Tarot by its very definition is just silliness and probably doesn't require much help of any demonic force more powerful than the ones which possess those who write ad copy for a living.

Wait, ad copy writers are demons . . . what am I saying?

OK, more help than the demonic forces powerful enough to get someone to play Rock Band.
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« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2011, 06:56:52 PM »

So in your opinion there is nothing at all going on with Tarot? And you wouldn't equate it with the casting of lots either?
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« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2011, 06:58:59 PM »

Quiet, have mercy me on but I just can't resist:

Could the Tarot be seen as a modern form of casting lots?/quote]

IMHO.

NO.


Casting lots:
1) To:  The One God who Is (The Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit)
2) Is used to find a person who has sinned or a person (or group of people) who should be given responsibility, or whether or not a war should be fought.  There may be other examples in scripture, but for now I can't think of them.)
3) Prayer within the community under the leadership of the Church (Even in the Old Testament - under the direction of the High Priest) for the sake of the church / community
4) The answer of choosing lots (or The Urim and Tummim) is completely clear, totally simple. . .yes or no.  This one or that one.  Nothing more nothing less.  (Let your yes be yes and your no be no, anything more than this is from the evil one.")
5.)  Lots and The Urim and Tummim are based on one thing and one thing only OBEDIENCE TO THE ONE GOD.  

Tarot:
1) To - the cards (making the cards themselves an idol)
2) Used to for an individual of the results of the current pathway if nothing changes. (Used for 'premonition' so that one can control an event by making a guess of choices to change if an event if something isn't seen as favorable or will rise expectations if something or someone may have some favorable outcome.
3) Is usually centered on desires based on the worldly issues.  (Love interest, travel, business decisions, money, 'bad omens', 'good omens'.)
4. Scenerio of the cards is usually very complicated and can be 'read' and interpreted usually on the 'insight' of the reader.  The reader is usually in a semi trance of reading, opening themselves up to the 'cards' on a spiritual level.
5. The person reading or the person receiving the reading often get hooked into the readings because there is a false belief that knowing what comes next (or actually, BELIEVING what is coming if they do this or that) gives them a false lead of control.  Tarot reading is not about obeying the cards (the god of the cards) but about BEING a god with a tool that suggests we are able to control things with this so called 'knowledge'.  The same sin in the garden of eden.  

Runes:

Runes are much much older than the Tarot, but run with the same usage as the Tarot.  They are a bit less complicated, but the answers are still very complicated.  The results are the same.  The reader is the same.  The god is the ruins.  The need for control is the same.

IChing:  
This is the Book of Change - and you do not ask the coins or sticks or even the book a question - but there is a question.  A reader is not necessary as the book of change (IChing) already has the readings written according to the fall of the coins.  There is quite a bit of eastern wisdom that might be worth some study - but the result is the same as the Tarot and the Runes - seeking to control by having the inside info. . .and therefore gaining 'knowledge' to become godlike.  Studying the book WITHOUT the throwing the coin or sticks may be worth something - but the minute the coins are brought in, it becomes the same need to control tomorrow again.  

So, bottom line. . . I'll ask what the motive is. . . to help your church move forward or to help someone (or yourself) know what tomorrow will bring if you do this or that?  

Choose this day who you will serve. You cannot have two masters.  Serve life or serve death, that's the only question there really is.


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« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2011, 07:00:35 PM »

So in your opinion there is nothing at all going on with Tarot? And you wouldn't equate it with the casting of lots either?

I'm mainly goofing around and pointing out that tarot started out as a card game.

Quiet is obviously your woman on this one.
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« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2011, 07:05:09 PM »

Quiet, have mercy me on but I just can't resist:

Could the Tarot be seen as a modern form of casting lots?/quote]

IMHO.

NO.


Casting lots:
1) To:  The One God who Is (The Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit)
2) Is used to find a person who has sinned or a person (or group of people) who should be given responsibility, or whether or not a war should be fought.  There may be other examples in scripture, but for now I can't think of them.)
3) Prayer within the community under the leadership of the Church (Even in the Old Testament - under the direction of the High Priest) for the sake of the church / community
4) The answer of choosing lots (or The Urim and Tummim) is completely clear, totally simple. . .yes or no.  This one or that one.  Nothing more nothing less.  (Let your yes be yes and your no be no, anything more than this is from the evil one.")
5.)  Lots and The Urim and Tummim are based on one thing and one thing only OBEDIENCE TO THE ONE GOD.  

Tarot:
1) To - the cards (making the cards themselves an idol)
2) Used to for an individual of the results of the current pathway if nothing changes. (Used for 'premonition' so that one can control an event by making a guess of choices to change if an event if something isn't seen as favorable or will rise expectations if something or someone may have some favorable outcome.
3) Is usually centered on desires based on the worldly issues.  (Love interest, travel, business decisions, money, 'bad omens', 'good omens'.)
4. Scenerio of the cards is usually very complicated and can be 'read' and interpreted usually on the 'insight' of the reader.  The reader is usually in a semi trance of reading, opening themselves up to the 'cards' on a spiritual level.
5. The person reading or the person receiving the reading often get hooked into the readings because there is a false belief that knowing what comes next (or actually, BELIEVING what is coming if they do this or that) gives them a false lead of control.  Tarot reading is not about obeying the cards (the god of the cards) but about BEING a god with a tool that suggests we are able to control things with this so called 'knowledge'.  The same sin in the garden of eden.  

Runes:

Runes are much much older than the Tarot, but run with the same usage as the Tarot.  They are a bit less complicated, but the answers are still very complicated.  The results are the same.  The reader is the same.  The god is the ruins.  The need for control is the same.

IChing:  
This is the Book of Change - and you do not ask the coins or sticks or even the book a question - but there is a question.  A reader is not necessary as the book of change (IChing) already has the readings written according to the fall of the coins.  There is quite a bit of eastern wisdom that might be worth some study - but the result is the same as the Tarot and the Runes - seeking to control by having the inside info. . .and therefore gaining 'knowledge' to become godlike.  Studying the book WITHOUT the throwing the coin or sticks may be worth something - but the minute the coins are brought in, it becomes the same need to control tomorrow again.  

So, bottom line. . . I'll ask what the motive is. . . to help your church move forward or to help someone (or yourself) know what tomorrow will bring if you do this or that?  

Choose this day who you will serve. You cannot have two masters.  Serve life or serve death, that's the only question there really is.



**LAUGHING SO HARD TEARS ARE RUNNING**

Your covered, dude.

LOL
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 07:06:28 PM by quietmorning » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2011, 07:08:52 PM »

IMHO.

NO.

I don't think Tarot or IChing or Runes or any other kind of divination is the same as casting lots.   The whole concept of where the 'answer" comes from and HOW the answer comes is totally different from casting lots.  Totally different.

Could you elaborate? From what I understand there is no fixed idea of how runes/tarot etc works.

Casting lots:
1) To:  The One God who Is (The Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit)
2) Is used to find a person who has sinned or a person (or group of people) who should be given responsibility, or whether or not a war should be fought.  There may be other examples in scripture, but for now I can't think of them.)
3) Prayer within the community under the leadership of the Church (Even in the Old Testament - under the direction of the High Priest) for the sake of the church / community
4) The answer of choosing lots (or The Urim and Tummim) is completely clear, totally simple. . .yes or no.  This one or that one.  Nothing more nothing less.  ("Let your yes be yes and your no be no, anything more than this is from the evil one.")
5.)  Lots and The Urim and Tummim are based on one thing and one thing only OBEDIENCE TO THE ONE GOD.  

Tarot:
1) To - the cards (making the cards themselves an idol)
2) Used to for an individual of the results of the current pathway if nothing changes. (Used for 'premonition' so that one can control an event by making a guess of choices to change if an event if something isn't seen as favorable or will rise expectations if something or someone may have some favorable outcome.
3) Is usually centered on desires based on the worldly issues.  (Love interest, travel, business decisions, money, 'bad omens', 'good omens'.)
4. Scenerio of the cards is usually very complicated and can be 'read' and interpreted usually on the 'insight' of the reader.  The reader is usually in a semi trance of reading, opening themselves up to the 'cards' on a spiritual level.
5. The person reading or the person receiving the reading often get hooked into the readings because there is a false belief that knowing what comes next (or actually, BELIEVING what is coming if they do this or that) gives them a false lead of control.  Tarot reading is not about obeying the cards (the god of the cards) but about BEING a god with a tool that suggests we are able to control things with this so called 'knowledge'.  The same sin in the garden of eden.  

Runes:

Runes are much much older than the Tarot, but run with the same usage as the Tarot.  They are a bit less complicated, but the answers are still very complicated.  The results are the same.  The reader is the same.  The god is the ruins.  The need for control is the same.

IChing:  
This is the Book of Change - and you do not ask the coins or sticks or even the book a question - but there is a question.  A reader is not necessary as the book of change (IChing) already has the readings written according to the fall of the coins.  There is quite a bit of eastern wisdom that might be worth some study - but the result is the same as the Tarot and the Runes - seeking to control by having the inside info. . .and therefore gaining 'knowledge' to become godlike.  Studying the book WITHOUT the throwing the coin or sticks may be worth something - but the minute the coins are brought in, it becomes the same need to control tomorrow again.  

So, bottom line. . . I'll ask what the motive is. . . to help your church move forward or to help someone (or yourself) know what tomorrow will bring if you do this or that?  

Choose this day who you will serve. You cannot have two masters.  Serve life or serve death, that's the only question there really is.

You appear to be quite well-versed on this subject.
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« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2011, 07:10:15 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?
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« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2011, 07:14:16 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

Ahhh now we are getting somewhere . . .

Sin is never within the context of an individual, but the community. We are all involved. The OT speaks to the communal nature of sin over and over.

As far as using a coin flip to condemn me as an adulter, I usually would balk at hocus-pocus, but in this case I fear my odds would be better with the coin than with the truth.
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« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2011, 07:16:55 PM »

You appear to be quite well-versed on this subject.

Not sure how to take our statement.  Are you asking a question . . .?
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« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2011, 07:18:55 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

No, because finding the guilt was to save the whole of Israel.  It was for the sake of the whole that the lots were brought out so that the evil could be dealt with and purged from their midst and Israel as a whole, restored.  They were looking for the individual (or at times individuals) - to save the WHOLE. 
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« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2011, 07:19:51 PM »

You appear to be quite well-versed on this subject.

Not sure how to take our statement.  Are you asking a question . . .?

Just making an observation. But feel free to run with it, if you are so inclined.
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« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2011, 07:23:00 PM »

You appear to be quite well-versed on this subject.

Not sure how to take our statement.  Are you asking a question . . .?

I was hoping for torches and pitchforks and chants of "do not suffer a witch" myself.
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« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2011, 07:29:45 PM »

You appear to be quite well-versed on this subject.

Not sure how to take our statement.  Are you asking a question . . .?

I was hoping for torches and pitchforks and chants of "do not suffer a witch" myself.



Close enough?
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« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2011, 07:50:22 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

No, because finding the guilt was to save the whole of Israel.  It was for the sake of the whole that the lots were brought out so that the evil could be dealt with and purged from their midst and Israel as a whole, restored.  They were looking for the individual (or at times individuals) - to save the WHOLE. 
I'm sorry but this seems a little pie in the sky for me. If Sally was cheating on Bob, would not have toppled the Nation of Israel, or made the Temple crumble. And consulting the lots for this reason seems to be a mundane enough reason, just like reasons that people consult the Tarot, IMHO.
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« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2011, 08:01:50 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

No, because finding the guilt was to save the whole of Israel.  It was for the sake of the whole that the lots were brought out so that the evil could be dealt with and purged from their midst and Israel as a whole, restored.  They were looking for the individual (or at times individuals) - to save the WHOLE. 
I'm sorry but this seems a little pie in the sky for me. If Sally was cheating on Bob, would not have toppled the Nation of Israel, or made the Temple crumble. And consulting the lots for this reason seems to be a mundane enough reason, just like reasons that people consult the Tarot, IMHO.

But we believe that the sins of one person, even in private, affects the entire community. Perhaps this is a foreshadowing of that understanding, just like a multitude of other foreshadowings found in the Old Testament, which seem arbitrary on their face but point to an important truth.
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« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2011, 08:04:36 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

No, because finding the guilt was to save the whole of Israel.  It was for the sake of the whole that the lots were brought out so that the evil could be dealt with and purged from their midst and Israel as a whole, restored.  They were looking for the individual (or at times individuals) - to save the WHOLE.  
I'm sorry but this seems a little pie in the sky for me. If Sally was cheating on Bob, would not have toppled the Nation of Israel, or made the Temple crumble. And consulting the lots for this reason seems to be a mundane enough reason, just like reasons that people consult the Tarot, IMHO.

But we believe that the sins of one person, even in private, affects the entire community. Perhaps this is a foreshadowing of that understanding, just like a multitude of other foreshadowings found in the Old Testament, which seem arbitrary on their face but point to an important truth.

And I am just Achan to give him an example, but I'll let others chime in . . .
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« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2011, 08:07:05 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

No, because finding the guilt was to save the whole of Israel.  It was for the sake of the whole that the lots were brought out so that the evil could be dealt with and purged from their midst and Israel as a whole, restored.  They were looking for the individual (or at times individuals) - to save the WHOLE.  
I'm sorry but this seems a little pie in the sky for me. If Sally was cheating on Bob, would not have toppled the Nation of Israel, or made the Temple crumble. And consulting the lots for this reason seems to be a mundane enough reason, just like reasons that people consult the Tarot, IMHO.

I'm sure it does - and yes, we probably wouldn't (according to blaring perception) - but His ways are higher than our ways.  We tend to look at ourselves as individuals - but we really aren't - humanity is very very organically connected.  We truly are not individuals but a conglomeration of cells moving and living together in one 'body'.  Just go to the grocery store and look around. . .when was the last time you went hunting?  Or when did you plant a crop?  Or who did either your or someone else you care about's surgery?  We're not islands.  We never were.  

As much as I'd like to say that your sin does not effect me, it does.  As much as I'd REALLY like to say that MY sin does not effect YOU - or anyone else, for that matter, it does.  . . . the butterfly effect in some cases. . .an avalanche in others.  Destructive cultural changes happen very slowly, very slightly a little at a time until the whole culture is corrupt, like yeast in bread. (The Lord's example, not mine.)

The people around me?  How are they effected by my sin?  The immediacy becomes much more pronounced.  

This was a new nation forming, a brand new baby - growing into a toddler, then a youngster, then a teen. . .and we all know how impressionable children are.  What happened?  They followed after other gods and did pretty much as they saw fit ignoring His laws and statutes . . .His mercy, His justice, His WAY. . .and when the door opened for them to step through?  The didn't recognize it, they didn't recognize HIM. . .because that little bit of yeast effected the whole.  

Social / cultural nuances are very very intoxicating to societies.  They change the whole.  Every single thing I do has an effect on my community, on my church, on the people I love.  It's when I get hardened into thinking that my actions don't mean anything to anyone and I can get away with murder that society is harmed, because then I compromise and murder.  

Let's go back to the cheating thing. . . this effects the children, the spouse, the neighbors, the parents, the friends, the employers, can influence or cause an effect on the cost of medical insurance. . .and affair doesn't hurt anyone?  It's not a victim-less crime. . . it hurts MANY people. Could it have toppled Israel?  Well, ask King David.  He had an affair - and it ended up splitting Israel in two due to the lack of respect and the results his children held for him due to THIS action. So. . yeah. . .go from there.
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« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2011, 08:36:44 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

No, because finding the guilt was to save the whole of Israel.  It was for the sake of the whole that the lots were brought out so that the evil could be dealt with and purged from their midst and Israel as a whole, restored.  They were looking for the individual (or at times individuals) - to save the WHOLE.  
I'm sorry but this seems a little pie in the sky for me. If Sally was cheating on Bob, would not have toppled the Nation of Israel, or made the Temple crumble. And consulting the lots for this reason seems to be a mundane enough reason, just like reasons that people consult the Tarot, IMHO.

But we believe that the sins of one person, even in private, affects the entire community. Perhaps this is a foreshadowing of that understanding, just like a multitude of other foreshadowings found in the Old Testament, which seem arbitrary on their face but point to an important truth.

And I am just Achan to give him an example, but I'll let others chime in . . .

ROFL

David and Bathsheeba had a pretty ruinous effect on Israel (though David's repentance blunted the worst of it).  Solomon's idolatry led to the division of the kingdom.  True, these were both kings, but kings kind of show us what the prevailing attitudes of the kingdom are at a given time (at least that's how I view the back and forth of the Judaic dynasty in the Old Testament).  How about the sons of Eli, or even Aaron for that matter?

As to the OP- I think what it basically boils down to is on the one hand you have people consulting the priests and prophets to find out what they should do in a situation, while on the other hand they consult mediums to find out what will happen
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« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2011, 08:47:44 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

No, because finding the guilt was to save the whole of Israel.  It was for the sake of the whole that the lots were brought out so that the evil could be dealt with and purged from their midst and Israel as a whole, restored.  They were looking for the individual (or at times individuals) - to save the WHOLE.  
I'm sorry but this seems a little pie in the sky for me. If Sally was cheating on Bob, would not have toppled the Nation of Israel, or made the Temple crumble. And consulting the lots for this reason seems to be a mundane enough reason, just like reasons that people consult the Tarot, IMHO.

But we believe that the sins of one person, even in private, affects the entire community. Perhaps this is a foreshadowing of that understanding, just like a multitude of other foreshadowings found in the Old Testament, which seem arbitrary on their face but point to an important truth.

And I am just Achan to give him an example, but I'll let others chime in . . .

ROFL 

Glad I got love from someone for that corny bit.

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« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2011, 08:49:55 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

No, because finding the guilt was to save the whole of Israel.  It was for the sake of the whole that the lots were brought out so that the evil could be dealt with and purged from their midst and Israel as a whole, restored.  They were looking for the individual (or at times individuals) - to save the WHOLE.  
I'm sorry but this seems a little pie in the sky for me. If Sally was cheating on Bob, would not have toppled the Nation of Israel, or made the Temple crumble. And consulting the lots for this reason seems to be a mundane enough reason, just like reasons that people consult the Tarot, IMHO.

But we believe that the sins of one person, even in private, affects the entire community. Perhaps this is a foreshadowing of that understanding, just like a multitude of other foreshadowings found in the Old Testament, which seem arbitrary on their face but point to an important truth.

And I am just Achan to give him an example, but I'll let others chime in . . .

ROFL 

Glad I got love from someone for that corny bit.



**chuckles** Heh. . .I thought you were serious and was waiting for you to .. . go there. . .lol.
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« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2011, 09:00:30 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

No, because finding the guilt was to save the whole of Israel.  It was for the sake of the whole that the lots were brought out so that the evil could be dealt with and purged from their midst and Israel as a whole, restored.  They were looking for the individual (or at times individuals) - to save the WHOLE.  
I'm sorry but this seems a little pie in the sky for me. If Sally was cheating on Bob, would not have toppled the Nation of Israel, or made the Temple crumble. And consulting the lots for this reason seems to be a mundane enough reason, just like reasons that people consult the Tarot, IMHO.

But we believe that the sins of one person, even in private, affects the entire community. Perhaps this is a foreshadowing of that understanding, just like a multitude of other foreshadowings found in the Old Testament, which seem arbitrary on their face but point to an important truth.

And I am just Achan to give him an example, but I'll let others chime in . . .

ROFL 

Glad I got love from someone for that corny bit.



**chuckles** Heh. . .I thought you were serious and was waiting for you to .. . go there. . .lol.

Got it right away.  "Achan" ain't just how you feel after the first stone hits.
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« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2011, 09:02:30 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

No, because finding the guilt was to save the whole of Israel.  It was for the sake of the whole that the lots were brought out so that the evil could be dealt with and purged from their midst and Israel as a whole, restored.  They were looking for the individual (or at times individuals) - to save the WHOLE.  
I'm sorry but this seems a little pie in the sky for me. If Sally was cheating on Bob, would not have toppled the Nation of Israel, or made the Temple crumble. And consulting the lots for this reason seems to be a mundane enough reason, just like reasons that people consult the Tarot, IMHO.

But we believe that the sins of one person, even in private, affects the entire community. Perhaps this is a foreshadowing of that understanding, just like a multitude of other foreshadowings found in the Old Testament, which seem arbitrary on their face but point to an important truth.

And I am just Achan to give him an example, but I'll let others chime in . . .

ROFL 

Glad I got love from someone for that corny bit.



**chuckles** Heh. . .I thought you were serious and was waiting for you to .. . go there. . .lol.

Got it right away.  "Achan" ain't just how you feel after the first stone hits.

**laughing**

**shakes head**

I'd groan too. . .but. . .um. . .it's just too cute.  **chuckles**
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« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2011, 09:28:15 PM »

I stand corrected regarding community and how sin has an effect. If I may tie into that thought, if an individual learns something from Tarot, and that helps them, their children, their community, etc., how then is this not to be compared to casting lots?
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« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2011, 09:44:07 PM »

I stand corrected regarding community and how sin has an effect. If I may tie into that thought, if an individual learns something from Tarot, and that helps them, their children, their community, etc., how then is this not to be compared to casting lots?

Really I know a lot of people go loony over tarot. But as I said above the only decent stuff comes from a good cold reader. It ends up being lay psychology.

They are either really go at figuring you out or they are just nebulous for you to fill in the details.

Most folks like the latter it causes less pain.

Try it out. It has an interesting history. And it can't be more demonic than 99% of TV, radio, internet, etc.

Sounds like you either had an experience you are trying to come to terms with or want to give tarot a crack.

Frankly. Let me buy you a beer or 12 and I will do a better job.

And it is argued whether casting lots is Christian at all. Folks cite choosing the 2nd 12th, but some apologetics say they did this out if impatience for waiting for the Holy Spirit to descend up on them.

If you win the lottery or something, remember me.
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« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2011, 09:54:25 PM »

I have been accused over the years on this forum of being a secret Catholic, wanting to wear a cilice, and now apparently of being a secret tarot reader. Why, when I ask questions based on the logic of others am I consistently labeled?
By the way, if you live anywhere close to me orthonorm, I'd love to have a beer with you.
Anyone care to take a crack at this:
Quote
I stand corrected regarding community and how sin has an effect. If I may tie into that thought, if an individual learns something from Tarot, and that helps them, their children, their community, etc., how then is this not to be compared to casting lots?
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« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2011, 09:56:54 PM »

I have been accused over the years on this forum of being a secret Catholic, wanting to wear a cilice, and now apparently of being a secret tarot reader. Why, when I ask questions based on the logic of others am I consistently labeled?
By the way, if you live anywhere close to me orthonorm, I'd love to have a beer with you.
Anyone care to take a crack at this:
Quote
I stand corrected regarding community and how sin has an effect. If I may tie into that thought, if an individual learns something from Tarot, and that helps them, their children, their community, etc., how then is this not to be compared to casting lots?

I must be a bad cold reader over the internet.

Touchy? How are you during Lent? Wink
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« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2011, 10:05:03 PM »

Quote
Touchy? How are you during Lent?
I knew you would say that, because I read the cards...
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« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2011, 10:06:21 PM »

I have been accused over the years on this forum of being a secret Catholic, wanting to wear a cilice, and now apparently of being a secret tarot reader. Why, when I ask questions based on the logic of others am I consistently labeled?
By the way, if you live anywhere close to me orthonorm, I'd love to have a beer with you.
Anyone care to take a crack at this:
Quote
I stand corrected regarding community and how sin has an effect. If I may tie into that thought, if an individual learns something from Tarot, and that helps them, their children, their community, etc., how then is this not to be compared to casting lots?

I must be a bad cold reader over the internet.

Touchy? How are you during Lent? Wink


What part of the world are you in?
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« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2011, 10:29:35 PM »

I have been accused over the years on this forum of being a secret Catholic, wanting to wear a cilice, and now apparently of being a secret tarot reader. Why, when I ask questions based on the logic of others am I consistently labeled?
By the way, if you live anywhere close to me orthonorm, I'd love to have a beer with you.
Anyone care to take a crack at this:
Quote
I stand corrected regarding community and how sin has an effect. If I may tie into that thought, if an individual learns something from Tarot, and that helps them, their children, their community, etc., how then is this not to be compared to casting lots?


That would be one point - in that perspective as far as the pure form of community is concerned - but lots was specific to the community of God. . .not just any community.  

Also, there is a deception in looking at information gained by seeking out the answers to something from another source - on an individual manner. . .in lots were used in the realm of witnesses.  When you seek the Tarot, do you take your family, your community, etc with you and have them there to witness the reading?  It's very easy to say it's for the community, but when you strip it down, it is still individualized because it is the person seeking from THEIR motives of need for control.

And it's that need for control. . .that is not submitting to the obedience of God.  

What if you (or the person seeking the reading) took every word that came out of the reader's mouth as GOD GIVEN?  This is what you must do - here and here and here. . .and this is what WILL happen. . .

would you be inclined to obey anything of what is said?  

Could you obey what is said?  Or is it just . . . insight?  

This is a huge difference. . .the lots were for direction in order to OBEY GOD. The tarot is for insight to make choices. . .not anything to do with obedience. . .to anyone, really.  And the insight?  

And when you receive the reading is it a simple 'yes' or 'no' or is it a path going through this and that and the other thing. . .that represents the likeness of things that COULD BE this or that. . .or anything else you decide to interpret it as and attach it to?

Then there's the WHO.  Who are you asking?  

If you or anyone else takes God completely out of the equation, then yes, there's no difference.  Because the lots are just going by chance just like anything else.  And I don't know that I would want to trust my children, my husband, my loved ones to . . . changing anything about my life . . .over something so precarious.  

But if God is in the equation?  Then the Lots are God controlled, God written, God stated. . . under God's chosen leadership and covering. . .and the Tarot?  Who knows.  Then I have to ask myself, am I going to risk my family, my friends, my soul, my life to something (the 'who knows') that will very quietly very subtly tear myself away from my God and poison my family with subtle assumptions of fantastical . . . very questionable truths?  How much to I really love those in my life?  

If God is in the equation, then He set precedents and statues concerning this thing for a reason.  Test the fruits.  The fruits of the Spirit are patience, love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.  Do the cards tell you something that causes anxiety?  fear? impurity?  Who are you asking?  Is this leading you to idolatry?  witchcraft? (I think a better understood word(s) here would be manipulation and or control seeking by manipulating events and others).  And what of the supposed 'problem areas that may come up?  hostility? bitter conflicts? jealousy? outbursts of anger?  lack of unity? dissensions? envying? Have to do another lay in order to 'make sure'?  Or what about a card that comes up that suggests that unfaithfulness is in your life?  What then?  Do you trust it?  

Or do you trust God?  Knowing that all things work together for good for those who love Him and are called according to their purpose?

Choices . . . always comes down to doing what we are told not to do for good reasons or doing what we want to do . . .for seemingly good reasons.  Divination is forbidden. . . and while lots can be lumped in the same category by most who do not want to see the truth, it's truly another form of prophecy just as dreams and visions are.  Lots, if done according to precept is another pen in His hand to communicate, to His people, direction.

So it's a choice between life and death. . .and it's always down to these two choices.  Choose to live, and live abundantly for those who choose to trust Him and what He has put forth as true --  or choose death and die eternally, for anyone that chooses to rationalize away from the truth.

(ps, 'you' is written to be understood as general anybody)
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« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2011, 10:38:27 PM »

Prophecy above being defined as God speaking to man, not future fortelling.
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« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2011, 11:11:32 PM »

I thank you for all the time and effort you have put into your responses quietmorning! I was wondering about this:
Quote
It's very easy to say it's for the community, but when you strip it down, it is still individualized because it is the person seeking from THEIR motives of need for control.
I was under the impression that the Tarot gave insights to help people make better choices in the future. Not actually predict the future. Am I incorrect?
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« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2011, 11:20:29 PM »

Whether or not Tarot cards do anything, it seems the intention to use them is not well guided. But if you don't believe me, please ask your priest.
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« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2011, 11:26:42 PM »

Whether or not Tarot cards do anything, it seems the intention to use them is not well guided. But if you don't believe me, please ask your priest.
Could you please point to a post of mine that said I was going to use Tarot cards?
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« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2011, 11:35:28 PM »

Previous discussion: "Is it a sin to flip a coin?"
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9205.0.html
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« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2011, 11:54:02 PM »

I thank you for all the time and effort you have put into your responses quietmorning! I was wondering about this:
Quote
It's very easy to say it's for the community, but when you strip it down, it is still individualized because it is the person seeking from THEIR motives of need for control.
I was under the impression that the Tarot gave insights to help people make better choices in the future. Not actually predict the future. Am I incorrect?

Does it honestly make a difference?  

But let's unpack that and strip it down for a moment. . .what does the last card in the spread tell you?  Isn't it the result of all the other cards if you stay on the path?  And isn't there a future event card opposite (depending on the spread) of the past event card?  

What the person is left with is - 'this is these events that have an effect on your question, and these are those events that have an effect on your question - and if you keep going on the same path you are on with these events, THIS (the last card) is where it will lead.  

So what then?  What do you do next?  If you truly live a full life each of those events has a hundred million scenarios with real people . . .are you going to control each of those people and chose . . .which event?  And if you can control each of those people and chose the RIGHT event to change, what are you going to change it to?  

Heh. . .go watch the movie The Butterfly Effect - it makes for a very very good point.  

So in effect, this thing that is supposed to be so helpful. . .is giving you a very unclear path going to a very precarious place . . .so that you can help those you care about . . .to do . . what?  What would you change the event TO?  And would it be good for every single person involved if you really truly had THAT MUCH power to effect your LAST CARD?  

Who are we to say what's good or what isn't for another person that our lives touch?  Or even for ourselves?  Only God knows all things.
How do we take what we are doing today - especially if it is God's hands, and walk away from it because a deck of cards suggests that this happening will lead me to this or that event?  Or refuse to let it go because of that last card?  There are so many things in my life that what happened 'today' fifteen years later saved my life.  THAT is God.    

There is our own wish to control . . .and make things better and prevent pain, and not see our loved one's suffer any harm, ill or tragedy. . . or for ourselves to keep from living through tragedy. . .so we try to fix it, and keep it from happening.  

But that very tragedy is what hones us and strengthens us and purges us from things that are killing us eternally.  So. . .would we be tricked out of it?  To what. . .

Those very hard difficult things is where faith is born and miracles happen.  I can try to control what I think I can control, or I will live every moment knowing that He is with me and be satisfied with that moment - and watch my life and others become something gleaming and pure and miraculous through Him who takes that trust even through the worst possible events . . .for His Glory.  That is HIS RIGHT. . .He bought that right with HIS LIFE.

Or I could not trust every moment to Him how made me with His own hands . . .and knows every moment of my life since HE WROTE IT HIMSELF. . .

and die.  

Because we never allowed Him to help us. . .truly help us. . .because we didn't trust Him.  Truly trust Him. . . in the good, in the bad, in the hard, in the easy, in the painful, in the joy. . . in every situation He could possibly use to bring us to Glory and then take us from Glory to Glory.  It's the hard narrow road, not the easy wide one.  

Now lets go back to the thought that "the Tarot gave insights to help people make better choices in the future". . . going back to the question of who. . .do you really want to serve another god?  Can a deck of cards really do one thing to help you?  And if they are better choices, and those better choices aren't from the One God, but from a deck of cards, doesn't it stand to reason that the choices are actually either of your own making given the possible scenarios the cards 'suggest'?  (and in that case, then it goes back to being self serving instead of God serving).  Why would anyone risk their families or their own lives on a deck of cards?  On suggestions that pull up puzzles you have to solve. . .and by this time, do you really think God would listen to you who is refusing to listen to Him?  

And is choosing to listen to a deck of cards, instead?  

Thank goodness He is forgiving. . .and all merciful. . .but why test Him?  

PFNicholas, you are quite welcome. . . Smiley

You're worth every bit of His mercy and grace you can possibly receive. . . Smiley I hope, in His mercy, this has been helpful, and I REALLY hope that this is more Him than me. . .because I tend to mess things up pretty good.  If you were helped, then it was from Him. . .and if you were harmed, please place the issues squarely in my lap.

In Christ, forever.



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« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2011, 12:03:22 AM »

Heh. . .again (putting this squarely in my own lap) I mis-read. . .one of your posts. . .you were quoting a 'thought' or something you thought someone was meaning, maybe. . .not sure. . .that you read the cards? 

I took it as you do read. . .again, I apologize. . .if this is for someone else. . .or just to get some answers, again, I hope this was helpful.
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« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2011, 12:06:36 AM »

You have certainly been helpful in every way Quietmorning! I wanted to deal with this thought:
Quote
But let's unpack that and strip it down for a moment. . .what does the last card in the spread tell you?  Isn't it the result of all the other cards if you stay on the path?  And isn't there a future event card opposite (depending on the spread) of the past event card?
Isn't the future card based on the past and present card? So it can be viewed as portraying a pattern of action within the individual's personality. How one usually reacts in a certain situation. So from that perspective how could it be seen as predicting the future, in the sense that you are speaking?
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« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2011, 02:13:59 AM »

Tarot cards are baloney, just like astrology and ouiji boards. A bunch of bull's hit.
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« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2011, 02:36:58 AM »

Just to throw another related hat in the ring:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/astrology.html
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« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2011, 11:47:35 AM »

Previous discussion: "Is it a sin to flip a coin?"
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9205.0.html

You are my hero.  Can't wait to read this.
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« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2011, 12:20:32 PM »

Previous discussion: "Is it a sin to flip a coin?"
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9205.0.html

You are my hero.  Can't wait to read this.
I don't think he posted this as a joke. It does have an application to the discussion.
BTW, I live in Ohio, orthonorm. Any chance we could grab a beer before Lent without a plane ticket?
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« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2011, 02:06:37 PM »

I found this on the Catholic Answers forum and laughed my butt off:
Quote
I actually am creating a Catholic tarot. I've got a few of the Major Arcana worked out:

0—The Fool: Yes, you. Playing with Tarots? You're going to hell.
VII—The Chariot: Remove the horses, it's a handcart – that you're going to hell in.
V—The Pope: …says infallibly you're going to hell.
XIII—Death: The wages of sin! You're going to hell.
IX—The Hermit: You can run, you can hide, but you're still going to hell.
X—The Wheel of Fortune: Buy a vowel: Y__'r_ g__ng t_ h_ll.
XX—Judgement: Yeah, you're in for it. The Judgement is…you're going to hell.
XXI—The World: What does this profit you, when you're going to hell?
Lol!  Cheesy
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« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2011, 04:10:46 PM »

FWIW, probably the single greatest thinker about the "occult / psychotherapeutic" use of the tarot was Aleister Crowley, a very misunderstood man.

He would not suffer the newage (rhymes with sewage) fools lightly who use tarot for "fortune telling".

Again not sure of benefit reading Crowley would be for any Orthodox Christian, except for academic / educational reasons.

One of the most interesting things about Crowley was his PWNing Hubbard long before the latter had any notoriety among the hoi polloi.

If just for lulz, google around for Hubbard and Jack Parsons.
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« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2011, 04:23:09 PM »

Oh, I am well aware of Hubbard and Parson's relationship. Sheds a lot of light on Scientology as well.
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« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2011, 04:27:07 PM »

To get back on topic, perhaps Quietmorning or others could comment on this:
Quote
Isn't the future card based on the past and present card? So it can be viewed as portraying a pattern of action within the individual's personality. How one usually reacts in a certain situation. So from that perspective how could it be seen as predicting the future, in the sense that you are speaking?
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« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2011, 06:04:56 PM »

To get back on topic, perhaps Quietmorning or others could comment on this:
Quote
Isn't the future card based on the past and present card? So it can be viewed as portraying a pattern of action within the individual's personality. How one usually reacts in a certain situation. So from that perspective how could it be seen as predicting the future, in the sense that you are speaking?
I think you're talking about Tarot as a means of self-knowledge, knowing one's strengths and limitations, somewhat how astrology is used in the West. It may be true that Tarot and astrology -- if properly used -- can give insight into one's personality, but the all too common mistake is to take this "personality" as static, unchanging, and an infallible guide to making choices. In short, the all too common mistake is the fall into fatalism, into thinking that the Tarot spread or the astrological chart is "you" or determines who "you" are. Such submission to the occultic arts is a type of materialism, perhaps not "scientific materialism," but materialism nonetheless. However, we don't reject science just because of the danger of scientific materialism. Likewise, one need not blindly reject Tarot just because of the danger of "occultic materialism". Instead, one can interpret and digest Tarot along Christian lines, each Tarot card representing different aspects of the Divine Person or the divine life. (The Fool, for instance, might symbolize the Holy Fools; The Hanged Man looks very similar to the process of St. Peter's martyrdom.) Used in such a way, Tarot can lead one towards God and neighbor, rather than towards self and ego.

Whether anyone uses the Tarot in this way, or whether the Tarot should be used in this way, is a different question. Perhaps such a use of the Tarot can be a bridge over which someone travels from selfish occultism to true Religion.

Just so you know, I'm not a witch.
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« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2011, 06:39:30 PM »

Quote
Instead, one can interpret and digest Tarot along Christian lines, each Tarot card representing different aspects of the Divine Person or the divine life. (The Fool, for instance, might symbolize the Holy Fools; The Hanged Man looks very similar to the process of St. Peter's martyrdom.) Used in such a way, Tarot can lead one towards God and neighbor, rather than towards self and ego.
Interesting thought...
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« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2011, 07:22:55 PM »

Thought that these were pretty interesting to say the least:

They are called Golden Tarot of the Tsar for some reason.
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« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2011, 07:49:07 PM »

To get back on topic, perhaps Quietmorning or others could comment on this:
Quote
Isn't the future card based on the past and present card? So it can be viewed as portraying a pattern of action within the individual's personality. How one usually reacts in a certain situation. So from that perspective how could it be seen as predicting the future, in the sense that you are speaking?

I don't have much time - running off to a meeting, but will hopefully give this the time it deserves when I get home.  

But in the mean time, I might leave this as something to think about.  The card is a card.  No more no less.  The definition of the card is induced by the reader according to the either tradition or intuition.  The card has no power to tell what one card means or another card means in order to dress itself to mean another meaning.  Nor does it have the power . . .or intellect to decide what that should mean to you.  

It is in our own minds - as our minds work this way, always reaching to fill in the blanks - that we attach meaning to our own past, present and then therefore future.  You (and any other who might be interested) might want to look at what the suggestion does to any mind - its a powerful thing.  The cards pictures on the cards 'suggest' an event. . .the mind goes about working on it to bring it about. . .if the card suggests the card of ten swords, what does that bring into one's life?  It all depends on the person viewing.  

The cards are not powerful.  Our minds certainly are - we can wrap ourselves up into delusion to the point where our whole world is not anything close to the truth.  

To answer your question.  No - I am not inclined to think the cards portray a pattern of anything in particular - but I am inclined to think that we attach meaning to enable a pattern to suit our own comfort level... and if we are still believing that it is the cards, then we delude ourselves. . .and fall into fantasy.  As much as fantasy can be appealing, it's just that. . . it isn't life. It isn't the fullness of life.  He died to give us life and give it abundantly.  Who am I to look at Him and say it's not good enough?  

If you WANT to define it as something that will help you deal with a future 'possibility' aren't you selling yourself short?  Out of ALL the possibilities in His INFINITE wisdom, why give yourself the option of only ONE?  Or two or three or how many you decide to play the deck?  Why not wait to see what He will do?  I guarantee it is worlds better than your or my two ways of doing things.  We are so short sighted. . .and here we go forcing Hand?  

Heh.  

Off to my meeting.  

I. will. be. back. Wink
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« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2011, 10:10:44 PM »

Quote
If you WANT to define it as something that will help you deal with a future 'possibility' aren't you selling yourself short?  Out of ALL the possibilities in His INFINITE wisdom, why give yourself the option of only ONE?  Or two or three or how many you decide to play the deck?  Why not wait to see what He will do?  I guarantee it is worlds better than your or my two ways of doing things.  We are so short sighted. . .and here we go forcing Hand?
That's what I was getting at earlier. It seems the cards show possible outcomes based on previous personality traits and decisions. I don't see how that limits a person in making a different choice from their own freewill.
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« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2011, 10:23:02 PM »

Quote
If you WANT to define it as something that will help you deal with a future 'possibility' aren't you selling yourself short?  Out of ALL the possibilities in His INFINITE wisdom, why give yourself the option of only ONE?  Or two or three or how many you decide to play the deck?  Why not wait to see what He will do?  I guarantee it is worlds better than your or my two ways of doing things.  We are so short sighted. . .and here we go forcing Hand?
That's what I was getting at earlier. It seems the cards show possible outcomes based on previous personality traits and decisions. I don't see how that limits a person in making a different choice from their own freewill.
I think it's more that the card reader can show possible outcomes based on thier ability to do cold readings, read body language, ask vague leading questions and put on a good enough show to make you think they somehow read your fortune. The only time cards can determine your future is if you break the Baccarat table at Monte Carlo.
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« Reply #61 on: February 21, 2011, 10:26:58 PM »

Quote
If you WANT to define it as something that will help you deal with a future 'possibility' aren't you selling yourself short?  Out of ALL the possibilities in His INFINITE wisdom, why give yourself the option of only ONE?  Or two or three or how many you decide to play the deck?  Why not wait to see what He will do?  I guarantee it is worlds better than your or my two ways of doing things.  We are so short sighted. . .and here we go forcing Hand?
That's what I was getting at earlier. It seems the cards show possible outcomes based on previous personality traits and decisions. I don't see how that limits a person in making a different choice from their own freewill.

I don't think it limits a person from making a different choice from their own free will.  And I never said as such. 

What I did say is that it's putting your trust in something other than God. 
I did say that it is not like the Christian or Judaic form of choosing lots. 
I did say that the use in intent is completely different from the use in intent of the Christian/Judaic form of choosing lots.
I did say that the guidance usages from Tarot is completely different from the Christian/Judaic form of choosing lots. 

If the last form of rationalization is based on whether this is a good way of making choices?  **shrugs**
Personally, for myself, I wouldn't do it.   I love the people in my life too much.  I'd much rather be and I'd much rather my children, my brothers and sisters, my parents, my friends, my neighbors be in the hand of God and not in the whim of a card lay out.  Any day of the week.

Is it a personal choice?  Is it free will to do or don't?  To believe 'the cards' are truly leading your life?  To not continue this relationship with the person across the street because the cards 'suggest' that if you continue this person will drive you to being broke?  What of loving your neighbor?  Or your enemy?  Or doing for others what you would want them to do for you?  It makes something so simple and beautiful - rich and deep. . .and breathtaking. . .complicated, rational, relative, and selfish.  A personal choice?  Free will?

Sure it is, we all have free will, but the choice always always always falls between life and death.  Again, choose this day who you will serve.  A cup is being offered to you, one of life, one of death. 

Know the seriousness of what you (whoever you is that reads and chooses between) must decide. 
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« Reply #62 on: February 21, 2011, 10:27:21 PM »

Quote
If you WANT to define it as something that will help you deal with a future 'possibility' aren't you selling yourself short?  Out of ALL the possibilities in His INFINITE wisdom, why give yourself the option of only ONE?  Or two or three or how many you decide to play the deck?  Why not wait to see what He will do?  I guarantee it is worlds better than your or my two ways of doing things.  We are so short sighted. . .and here we go forcing Hand?
That's what I was getting at earlier. It seems the cards show possible outcomes based on previous personality traits and decisions. I don't see how that limits a person in making a different choice from their own freewill.
I think it's more that the card reader can show possible outcomes based on thier ability to do cold readings, read body language, ask vague leading questions and put on a good enough show to make you think they somehow read your fortune. The only time cards can determine your future is if you break the Baccarat table at Monte Carlo.

Echo much?
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« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2011, 12:26:26 AM »

Quietmorning, you seem to know quite a bit about the Tarot. Have you had experiences with them? Or was it someone close to you? I would love to hear your story. If you would feel more comfortable doing so through PM that's fine as well. It seems that you are one of the only ones on this thread that takes the use of the tarot to the point of it sending a person to hell. Which is a perfectly fine opinion to hold. I bet it has been arrived at by experience. I could be wrong though.
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« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2011, 12:49:46 AM »

Yeah the original use of the Tarot cards were just that, playing card games. The confusion I have is this: casting lots were used to consult God about a decision that needed to be made. This sounds a lot like Tarot to me. Most Tarot practitioners will say that the cards do not reveal the future, because the future is not set in stone. So the argument that one could get hooked because of an ego/power trip seems unlikely.

(Misread your post, I apologize.)

Well, you are ultimately the one who will have to decide, but this was what I grew up with and what I witnessed.

The lots were used for a decision that needed to be made for the sake of the community - Saul went to a soothsayer to get INDIVIDUAL. . . attention and got into a world of trouble because of it.  The enemy knows just how to hook our ego's - and before you know it we're powerless in our 'perceived' power trip.  Like I said, lots were simple. . .yes or no. . .this one was the one who did this. . that one will go there.  The enemy likes to put up a bunch of distractions and makes things complicated so that if this hook doesn't work by goodness there are thirty more to keep you tied up and gagged from being the true warrior you are meant to be.  

And from trusting the One God.  


It's perfectly ok to stand alone. 

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« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2011, 12:56:55 AM »

Quietmorning, you seem to know quite a bit about the Tarot. Have you had experiences with them? Or was it someone close to you? I would love to hear your story. If you would feel more comfortable doing so through PM that's fine as well. It seems that you are one of the only ones on this thread that takes the use of the tarot to the point of it sending a person to hell. Which is a perfectly fine opinion to hold. I bet it has been arrived at by experience. I could be wrong though.

No, I don't believe the Tarot can send a person to hell.  The cards can sit in the box and not harm a soul.  Just like a gun, it's not the gun, it's the hand that pulls the trigger.

But we certainly can choose what we will or won't do, and how we will interpret what we will or won't do - and THAT certainly can.
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« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2011, 01:09:44 AM »

So, are you saying that the Tarot is harmless then? Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. Because in the right hands a gun can save lives; it can rescue.
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« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2011, 08:57:26 AM »

**laughing**

oye. 

If I took the cards and put them in my front pocket to keep a bullet from getting to my heart - they MIGHT save my life.   Wink

I'm saying that it is man's heart and the things that gush forward from it that harms.  If the tarot were PLAYED as the CARD GAME it was originally intended to be?  Maybe. . . in 'reading them'?  No, in my humble opinion man's interpretation draws his ego out and he thinks  he actually has control . . . brings his heart and mind OFF of God.  No, I don't think any good can possibly come out of that.

We're so good at deceiving ourselves. 
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« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2011, 09:21:27 AM »

Something that might make this more clear:

When I was a little girl, in school there was a game where we folded a piece of paper into a star with yes and no answers in it, and then little handwritten sayings in it when it was completely opened up.  We would say a rhyme and then have the person pick a piece of the star and read it.. .it was supposed to tell our fortune on something like - will this boy like me - etc.  We all KNEW it was a game.  It wasn't going to be true, it was all in fun, and ONLY all in fun.  

There is no harm in THIS.

When someone sits down to have their reading done - he/she puts their trust in the reader, not in God.  When the reader concentrates and then does a card lay out - he/she is putting their trust in the cards, not in God.  There IS harm in this.  

May I ask you a question?  What is the difference between going to a reader and asking for a reading. . .and going to your icon corner and asking God to help you?  Or lead you?  Or give you wisdom?  Or asking the reader to . . .'just pray for me'.  

Or what is the difference between the reader sitting down and consulting the cards and telling the person, "Lord have mercy, I will continue to pray for you?"  

Trust.  

Who do you trust?  The cards or God?  

This isn't about whether Tarot cards are good bad or indifferent, this is about whether you will leave your life in His hands or whether you trust only your own . . . and a deck of cards to show you how to use your hands.
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« Reply #69 on: December 15, 2014, 04:48:49 PM »

I consider it a privilege to join the conversation of sincere believers in this thread, and I would very much enjoy and benefit from further dialogue on the topic of tarot. I know there are Believers who feel very strongly that many of the Spiritual Gifts have ceased, but I've personally witnessed quite the contrary, and I wonder if Spiritual Gifts will become more and more visible in these times. Just like no one can convince me that Jesus isn't real, because I've personally witnessed and value Him as my very best friend. So, here's the thing...I have a tender heart that is hesitant and very fearful of what may indeed possibly be my spiritual gift. But if it is my gift, I'm sinning not to put it to use as directed by the Holy Spirit. So I cautiously offer what I've found thus far in my very long and soulful search in God's Word regarding the possible use of tarot by a Christian. If there are any responses or questions, I will listen when scripture is used, and I'm happy to further reconsider and also able to provide quite a bit of scriptural references that lead to my present understandings below:

1) There is a spiritual gift of a Word of Knowledge applicable to an individual person's specific circumstances in this life, that is different than basic overall Prophecy recorded in the Scriptures, and this gift would be confirmed as from God only if and when the Words provided by the gifted person are 100% accurate 100% of the time.  
                              
2) When we feel lost and confused, we can always cry out for comfort to our Father Who will not punish us for crying out to Him, asking for more clarity, or being fearful to advance until He reassures us of His Will, as He promised to answer all our prayers...so even His silence is an answer we should can peacefully  take to heart.

3) God may speak to us using literally anything and through any means He chooses, and He is a patient and loving Father Who speaks in ways we can understand given our childish weaknesses in our limited capacity to understand Him.

4) God's forewarning of a sinful pattern that is destructive doesn't usurp our freedom of agency, nor is God's knowing the future the same as His controlling the future.

5) The Bible shows that believers used sticks, stones, and fleeces to confirm God's Will, and that though there were instances when God revealed His Will, there was also at least one instance where God did not reveal His Will or give His direction and the Apostles themselves prematurely jumped to the wrong assumption when God's will was none of the above...IE, none of the possible answers they suggested by their designated lots.

6) Lots, printed pages of any given translation of the Bible, and tarot cards, all of these are creations made of wood...and not The Creator Himself, and only the Bible as originally written is 100% purely Spiritually Inspired, so deriving what God is saying to us takes insight from the Holy Spirit.

7) Believers are in the least dim-sighted soldiers behind enemy lines, if not blind-sighted and held captive.

8) Even our limited understanding of God's revealed point of view and perspective  gives us invaluable meaning to pain and suffering that brings powerful healing and freedom to bear fruit of the Holy Spirit.

9) The fruit of the Holy Spirit includes self-control (not other-control) to best put to use the resources God has provided us within the boundaries of he has allowed in time and space for each of our temporary habitation here on Earth.

10) When we're trusting in the Holy Spirit to complete our persistent prayers, daily in His Word, keeping this as our primary guidance, confessing our sins morning and night to remain in fellowship, staying close to Jesus... we may be shown visual confirmation of what we should already know, as a second witness, specific to our circumstances. Perhaps this would be an innocent use of tarot, if aligned with His Word and validated by the confirmation of two or three signs as additional witnesses, as a useful created thing that God may use to give us understanding of His partially revealed Will, to provide His perspective, to provide us peace in a specific matter that helps an individual.

I do not wish to offend, I'm just honestly speaking of my current understanding, this is respectfully and humbly submitted in love, and I'm open to grow in my understanding. So please don't hesitate to post replies to my input above, this is a wonderful venue we Christians should put to full use until He comes for His Bride Selah~
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 05:19:08 PM by MightyInJesus » Logged
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« Reply #70 on: December 15, 2014, 05:39:34 PM »

^Welcome to the forum!
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« Reply #71 on: December 15, 2014, 05:42:00 PM »

Welcome to the forum!

Quote
5) The Bible shows that believers used sticks, stones, and fleeces to confirm God's Will, and that though there were instances when God revealed His Will, there was also at least one instance where God did not reveal His Will or give His direction and the Apostles themselves prematurely jumped to the wrong assumption when God's will was none of the above...IE, none of the possible answers they suggested by their designated lots.

What do you mean by this?
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« Reply #72 on: December 15, 2014, 06:13:26 PM »

Welcome to the forum!

Quote
5) The Bible shows that believers used sticks, stones, and fleeces to confirm God's Will, and that though there were instances when God revealed His Will, there was also at least one instance where God did not reveal His Will or give His direction and the Apostles themselves prematurely jumped to the wrong assumption when God's will was none of the above...IE, none of the possible answers they suggested by their designated lots.

What do you mean by this?

Hi-ya!
Nice to meet you. I love Unicorns (your avitar pic)! There's a verse I found in the King James Bible that has a unicorn mentioned, did you know that? Pretty cool.

Wow, that was an incredibly fast response time to my post...Thank YOU!

The area of scripture I'm referring to here is found in Acts 1:26.

My opinion is not as important as your personally derived understanding gained by your own prayerful study. When I pondered this area of scripture, I had to answer the following questions, but you may indeed have your own questions to further our dialogue. But here's some of my questions that I felt lead to discover answers to, if you're interested in following my logical progression:

1) What results from the use of the lottery in this case?
2) What confirms or does not confirm this usage of a lottery to determine God's Will?
3) Who were the 11 apostles, how does that list compare to whom we see evidence through the scriptures as functioning as the 12th apostle from that time forward?...
4) Do you ever hear of or read anything written by or even about the one chosen by Lots or do you see someone else come on the scene as a mighty spokesman for God?
5) What do you know to be true of God's character?
6) What is your conclusion about whether God's choice for the 12th position was shown through the use of Lots (or not)?

Let me know what you come up with!

All I know for sure is Christ crucified. That's it. The rest is up for debate, with scripture as our guide. But I will say this, the God I know not only tells us what He's gonna do, He actually does it every time...to exact perfection, spot on, and He never misses the bulls-eye. When God's Hand is in it, you know it by the detailed evidence beyond human ability or happenstance.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 06:34:19 PM by MightyInJesus » Logged
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« Reply #73 on: December 15, 2014, 06:37:39 PM »

^Welcome to the forum!

Thank YOU! Proud to be here. And nice to meet you. What does the green dot next to your avitar, with the word "warned" mean? It's kind of weird. Do you know? I'm guessing I'm being warned? Or you are? Or is it something else? Hum...now I'm wondering if this is truly the right place for this topic to be discussed by Christians...maybe not....let me know if I'm not welcomed to speak, but I truly hope this is not the case. For this is a topic we find here and now and need to be prepared with an apt reply that represents Jesus well! Iron sharpens iron, what better way than this to truly think through what we believe and what we'd say and what we'd do when we come out of our time alone with God to engage the world!
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 06:42:54 PM by MightyInJesus » Logged
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« Reply #74 on: December 15, 2014, 07:19:33 PM »

A-ha! Found my own answer about the Green Dot under Rules!, I'll partially Quote below:

Informal Warning, officially Warning (“green dot”), Post Moderation, Muting, or Banning -- An “informal warning” is one which is made by the moderator either via PM or by a simple in-post message; it does not trigger an official warning through the forum software.  Warned status (through the forum software) is a public indication that you committed a minor infraction.  Further infractions may result in Post Moderation (where you can post, but the posts will not be seen publicly until they are approved by a moderator), Muting (where you cannot post, but you can engage in PMs and your account remains active) or Banning (ending your participation on the forum permanently).  A time limit will be placed on your warning between 1 and 99 days; at the conclusion of that time, your status will automatically be downgraded to the next lower warning level for the same duration.  (E.g. If you are muted for 15 days, at the conclusion of that time your status will be downgraded to Post Moderation for 15 days, then Warned status for 15 days.)  When any of the above steps are taken to correct an action, a User Log is generated which tracks user infractions and moderator communication with said user.

Interesting.....

I also read under the Rules tab about the definition of "Orthodox Christian". When I look up in the dictionary the defined meaning of each of these words, it fits me. I believe that's what I am, though I'm not associated with any single Denominational structure enforced by men or humankind. The Bible states you're Born (ie., Born Again) into the True Church, you don't "join" the body of Christ, it's a matter of Faith, and only God is able to judge the motives of our hearts. So that's me...I'm a fellow sinner, who knows nothing but Christ crucified. And I am constantly growing and changing according to my current level of deficient understanding of God's Word found in the Bible. If this simple and honest stance is not welcomed to speak here on this forum, then I will not fight it but brush the dust off my feet! But I have valued what I have read from others on this site. In gratitude, MIJ
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« Reply #75 on: December 15, 2014, 07:28:49 PM »

I also read under the Rules tab about the definition of "Orthodox Christian". When I look up in the dictionary the defined meaning of each of these words, it fits me. I believe that's what I am, though I'm not associated with any single Denominational structure enforced by men or humankind. The Bible states you're Born (ie., Born Again) into the True Church, you don't "join" the body of Christ, it's a matter of Faith, and only God is able to judge the motives of our hearts. So that's me...I'm a fellow sinner, who knows nothing but Christ crucified. And I am constantly growing and changing according to my current level of deficient understanding of God's Word found in the Bible. If this simple and honest stance is not welcomed to speak here on this forum, then I will not fight it but brush the dust off my feet! But I have valued what I have read from others on this site. In gratitude, MIJ

Orthodoxy is pre-denominational.
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« Reply #76 on: December 15, 2014, 08:10:49 PM »

Agreed.
Orthodoxy is pre-denominational.

Yup...understood. But...I'm Sorry to say that even this "Orthodox Christianity" is considered a denomination by other denominations...so I don't like labels. I like discourse instead.

Like trying to define "anxiety"...what does that mean to you? I've found it means something entirely different from one person to the next. The word anxiety can be used to describe all sorts of feelings. So tell me about your anxiety! Is it how you fidget nervously pacing, or your impatience in waiting for God to do what you want, or is it how you show anger in yelling and slamming things, or is it how a single thought keeps on replaying over and over in your mind like a constant worry or is it fear?

That is why I say "You tell me"!

All those who are born-again who trust in only Jesus Christ crucified and risen for their redemption, from just about every walk of faith, are part of the true church as defined in God's Word, interestingly! And we all get something wrong, God's not finished with any of us yet. But I want to grow. And iron sharpens iron. So let's talk! Here! Now! Honestly!

And along the same line as the first question posted before asking what I meant,
I'll tell you what I meant. The 12th apostle was Paul, not Matthias! Does anyone else come to this conclusion like me? Or am I wrong? and how do you come to a different conclusion? Tell me please so I can understand you. Let's get into God's Word together! YES! That's the goal. Because Paul warns us that in the end times there will be a great falling away from what we know as the original orthodox christianity. Check out 2 Thes 2, and 2 Tim 3 and 4.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 08:11:35 PM by MightyInJesus » Logged
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« Reply #77 on: December 15, 2014, 09:03:03 PM »

Christ entrusted the care of the Church into the hands of the Apostles. They chose Matthias through the use of lots to fill Judas' spot. Tradition has it that St. Matthias was a great evangelist for Christ and was martyred giving the good news of the Gospel. I would hesitate to call his choice a mistake.  St. Paul was certainly an apostle as well, although not one of the 12. In addition to the Twelve Apostles, there were also 70 Apostles that Christ sent out to minister. There have also been others who have been given the title "Apostle" and "Equal-to-the-Apostles" by the Church.
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« Reply #78 on: December 15, 2014, 11:06:33 PM »

Yup...understood. But...I'm Sorry to say that even this "Orthodox Christianity" is considered a denomination by other denominations...so I don't like labels. I like discourse instead.

Orthodoxy doesn't care what other denominations think. Anthropologically speaking, Orthodoxy is more of a branch of Christianity. She is the East and her schismatic sister and her numerous offsprings, the West.

About Anxiety, we can all agree what it is. The experience of anxiety is that of worry and nervousness upon an uncertain outcome of a particular event. Slamming a table or yelling in anger is not Anxiety. Perhaps each and everyone's experience of that nervousness would be different(as in their perception of it) but we can still universally agree on its definition and the situations which it applies.
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« Reply #79 on: December 16, 2014, 01:42:07 PM »

Christ entrusted the care of the Church into the hands of the Apostles. They chose Matthias through the use of lots to fill Judas' spot. Tradition has it that St. Matthias was a great evangelist for Christ and was martyred giving the good news of the Gospel. I would hesitate to call his choice a mistake.  St. Paul was certainly an apostle as well, although not one of the 12. In addition to the Twelve Apostles, there were also 70 Apostles that Christ sent out to minister. There have also been others who have been given the title "Apostle" and "Equal-to-the-Apostles" by the Church.

Thank you. I cannot find further mention of Matthias in my Bible. Anywhere.
I wondered if that was because I had a protestant-type Bible, versus a Catholic Bible, so I googled to find out about this and I have now learned that "Orthodox" Bibles have an additional whopping 14 books added to the 66 books found in my Bible, while Catholic Bibles have 11 additional books. I had no idea, this is quite a chasm. The extra books are called the Apocrypha, and these were removed from the Protestant Bible during the Reformation. Apparently, these Apocrypha books were never in the Hebrew Canon because 2 Jewish historians named Jerome and Josephus both excluded them due to they were not written by a prophet of God as were the other Old Testament books that were included. And the second reason these Apocrypha books weren't included is that they contain a lot of contradictory information that doesn't jive with the books of the Old Testament, raising many concerns as to who actually authored them because they are neither theologically nor historically accurate. Like I've said before, when something is of God, it is ALWAYS SPOT ON. It's pretty easy to identify His handiwork versus humankind's counterfeits. And the original always precedes the counterfeit. I have to agree with the identification of certain problems found in the Apocrypha, that do not give these books the same weight and authority as Inspired books.  

These findings mean to me that I should not be here in "Orthodox" territory, since we cannot even agree on what constitutes the Word of God to begin with.... So sorry, I didn't realize that we don't even agree on the basic Biblical text! ...on what constitutes the Inspired text! I've decided that I cannot dialogue regarding Biblical topics when we don't even agree on a mutual starting point. Oh may God forgive me for all the things I get so very wrong. We Christians get so much wrong, and if it wasn't for God's Grace, we'd just be utterly hopelessly lost.

Thank You for letting me post. I think maybe this should be my last comment on this forum because I do not wish to offend. Nor argue the basics when there is so much to learn from what I know for sure is Inspired text. There's no time for that kind of thing...ya know? So sorry I must go. With Respectful Concern, Sincerely.  

« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 02:09:21 PM by MightyInJesus » Logged
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« Reply #80 on: December 16, 2014, 01:51:08 PM »

The entire Christian world weren't even clear on which Books are that of the Word of God. The Early Christians disputed the validity of some New Testament books such as that of Revelation.

Some non Biblical writings were also viewed by some to be Inspired Scripture. If Sacred Scripture is only supposed to have 66 Books following your Sola Scriptura maxim, then by right, the Early Christians would be in agreement as to which book is canonical and which is not. Problem is that such is not the case at all. So this means that the Protestants took away from Scripture. The Orthodox in contrast maintained that which is Scripture since they don't even have the belief in Sola Scriptura in the first place.
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« Reply #81 on: December 16, 2014, 02:23:17 PM »

I hear you. But...this just doesn't work for me because the God I've come to know is 100% perfect in every detail. When this set of Apocrypha books does not jive with the other Old Testament books, this contradicts God's character. I cannot downgrade God to become an inaccurate, imperfect being like I am. He's perfect. He's my God. Ya know? And I see that not just one, but two Jewish historians found these Apocrypha books not to be Inspired, that's two witnesses. God first chose the Jewish people to relay His Word to humankind. This is a foundational faith issue for me, I cannot and will not go there, because this is one of our Enemy's most often used schemes, mix just a tiny bit of lie in with 99.9% truth and what a mess! I say this in Love and Peace to you~ sincerely....signing off now. Thank you for our conversation! I've learned a lot!
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« Reply #82 on: December 16, 2014, 02:38:20 PM »

Like I've said before, when something is of God, it is ALWAYS SPOT ON.


Mark 8.22-24.
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« Reply #83 on: December 16, 2014, 11:47:13 PM »

Well, that was an interesting fellow.  Tongue
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