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Author Topic: Tarot and Casting Lots  (Read 4419 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 20, 2011, 04:53:52 PM »

This just popped in my head and wanted to know what you guys thought about it. There are many instances in the Scriptures to casting lots. Could the Tarot be seen as a modern form of casting lots?
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« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2011, 05:26:41 PM »

IMHO.

NO.

I don't think Tarot or IChing or Runes or any other kind of divination is the same as casting lots.   The whole concept of where the 'answer" comes from and HOW the answer comes is totally different from casting lots.  Totally different.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 05:27:15 PM by quietmorning » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2011, 05:39:20 PM »

IMHO.

NO.

I don't think Tarot or IChing or Runes or any other kind of divination is the same as casting lots.   The whole concept of where the 'answer" comes from and HOW the answer comes is totally different from casting lots.  Totally different.

Could you elaborate? From what I understand there is no fixed idea of how runes/tarot etc works.
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2011, 06:25:00 PM »

IMHO.

NO.

I don't think Tarot or IChing or Runes or any other kind of divination is the same as casting lots.   The whole concept of where the 'answer" comes from and HOW the answer comes is totally different from casting lots.  Totally different.

Could you elaborate? From what I understand there is no fixed idea of how runes/tarot etc works.

Casting lots:
1) To:  The One God who Is (The Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit)
2) Is used to find a person who has sinned or a person (or group of people) who should be given responsibility, or whether or not a war should be fought.  There may be other examples in scripture, but for now I can't think of them.)
3) Prayer within the community under the leadership of the Church (Even in the Old Testament - under the direction of the High Priest) for the sake of the church / community
4) The answer of choosing lots (or The Urim and Tummim) is completely clear, totally simple. . .yes or no.  This one or that one.  Nothing more nothing less.  ("Let your yes be yes and your no be no, anything more than this is from the evil one.")
5.)  Lots and The Urim and Tummim are based on one thing and one thing only OBEDIENCE TO THE ONE GOD.  

Tarot:
1) To - the cards (making the cards themselves an idol)
2) Used to for an individual of the results of the current pathway if nothing changes. (Used for 'premonition' so that one can control an event by making a guess of choices to change if an event if something isn't seen as favorable or will rise expectations if something or someone may have some favorable outcome.
3) Is usually centered on desires based on the worldly issues.  (Love interest, travel, business decisions, money, 'bad omens', 'good omens'.)
4. Scenerio of the cards is usually very complicated and can be 'read' and interpreted usually on the 'insight' of the reader.  The reader is usually in a semi trance of reading, opening themselves up to the 'cards' on a spiritual level.
5. The person reading or the person receiving the reading often get hooked into the readings because there is a false belief that knowing what comes next (or actually, BELIEVING what is coming if they do this or that) gives them a false lead of control.  Tarot reading is not about obeying the cards (the god of the cards) but about BEING a god with a tool that suggests we are able to control things with this so called 'knowledge'.  The same sin in the garden of eden.  

Runes:

Runes are much much older than the Tarot, but run with the same usage as the Tarot.  They are a bit less complicated, but the answers are still very complicated.  The results are the same.  The reader is the same.  The god is the ruins.  The need for control is the same.

IChing:  
This is the Book of Change - and you do not ask the coins or sticks or even the book a question - but there is a question.  A reader is not necessary as the book of change (IChing) already has the readings written according to the fall of the coins.  There is quite a bit of eastern wisdom that might be worth some study - but the result is the same as the Tarot and the Runes - seeking to control by having the inside info. . .and therefore gaining 'knowledge' to become godlike.  Studying the book WITHOUT the throwing the coin or sticks may be worth something - but the minute the coins are brought in, it becomes the same need to control tomorrow again.  

So, bottom line. . . I'll ask what the motive is. . . to help your church move forward or to help someone (or yourself) know what tomorrow will bring if you do this or that?  

Choose this day who you will serve. You cannot have two masters.  Serve life or serve death, that's the only question there really is.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 06:43:22 PM by quietmorning » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2011, 06:34:43 PM »

alt.tarot

one of the finest early examples of what trolling is and ain't.

Buddy of mine is a "card game" expert. When he started showing up on alt.tarot to bring facts to their fiction about their "magical cards", he was called a troll. Back then trolls were welcome, because discussion was wanted. He ended up the resident guru of the group.

He eventually wrote the book on tarot.

A lot of fun game variations to be had.

Tarot is a deck of cards used for all sortsa reasons from the begininning, most being passing the time playing a game to gamble, which then developed into another gambling system with a person gambling with their money to get insight into their future or past or whatever. The house always wins in the latter varient.

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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2011, 06:36:37 PM »

alt.tarot

one of the finest early examples of what trolling is and ain't.

Buddy of mine is a "card game" expert. When he started showing up on alt.tarot to bring facts to their fiction about their "magical cards", he was called a troll. Back then trolls were welcome, because discussion was wanted. He ended up the resident guru of the group.

He eventually wrote the book on tarot.

A lot of fun game variations to be had.

Tarot is a deck of cards used for all sortsa reasons from the begininning, most being passing the time playing a game to gamble, which then developed into another gambling system with a person gambling with their money to get insight into their future or past or whatever. The house always wins in the latter varient.

**laughing**

I stand corrected.  **grins**

It's the latter variant where the house always wins that is way not even close to 'choosing lots'.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 06:38:20 PM by quietmorning » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2011, 06:40:38 PM »

alt.tarot

one of the finest early examples of what trolling is and ain't.

Buddy of mine is a "card game" expert. When he started showing up on alt.tarot to bring facts to their fiction about their "magical cards", he was called a troll. Back then trolls were welcome, because discussion was wanted. He ended up the resident guru of the group.

He eventually wrote the book on tarot.

A lot of fun game variations to be had.

Tarot is a deck of cards used for all sortsa reasons from the begininning, most being passing the time playing a game to gamble, which then developed into another gambling system with a person gambling with their money to get insight into their future or past or whatever. The house always wins in the latter varient.

**laughing**

I stand corrected.  **grins**

It's the latter variant where the house always wins that is way not even close to 'choosing lots'.



What about choosing straws? Wink
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« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2011, 06:42:17 PM »

alt.tarot

one of the finest early examples of what trolling is and ain't.

Buddy of mine is a "card game" expert. When he started showing up on alt.tarot to bring facts to their fiction about their "magical cards", he was called a troll. Back then trolls were welcome, because discussion was wanted. He ended up the resident guru of the group.

He eventually wrote the book on tarot.

A lot of fun game variations to be had.

Tarot is a deck of cards used for all sortsa reasons from the begininning, most being passing the time playing a game to gamble, which then developed into another gambling system with a person gambling with their money to get insight into their future or past or whatever. The house always wins in the latter varient.

**laughing**

I stand corrected.  **grins**

It's the latter variant where the house always wins that is way not even close to 'choosing lots'.



What about choosing straws? Wink

HAHAHAHAHA!!

**insta-pic of straws up the nose**

well. . .heh. . . just be careful with where they end up. 
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« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2011, 06:42:58 PM »

Yeah the original use of the Tarot cards were just that, playing card games. The confusion I have is this: casting lots were used to consult God about a decision that needed to be made. This sounds a lot like Tarot to me. Most Tarot practitioners will say that the cards do not reveal the future, because the future is not set in stone. So the argument that one could get hooked because of an ego/power trip seems unlikely.
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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2011, 06:50:23 PM »

Yeah the original use of the Tarot cards were just that, playing card games. The confusion I have is this: casting lots were used to consult God about a decision that needed to be made. This sounds a lot like Tarot to me. Most Tarot practitioners will say that the cards do not reveal the future, because the future is not set in stone. So the argument that one could get hooked because of an ego/power trip seems unlikely.

(Misread your post, I apologize.)

Well, you are ultimately the one who will have to decide, but this was what I grew up with and what I witnessed.

The lots were used for a decision that needed to be made for the sake of the community - Saul went to a soothsayer to get INDIVIDUAL. . . attention and got into a world of trouble because of it.  The enemy knows just how to hook our ego's - and before you know it we're powerless in our 'perceived' power trip.  Like I said, lots were simple. . .yes or no. . .this one was the one who did this. . that one will go there.  The enemy likes to put up a bunch of distractions and makes things complicated so that if this hook doesn't work by goodness there are thirty more to keep you tied up and gagged from being the true warrior you are meant to be.  

And from trusting the One God.  

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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2011, 06:51:55 PM »

Yeah the original use of the Tarot cards were just that, playing card games. The confusion I have is this: casting lots were used to consult God about a decision that needed to be made. This sounds a lot like Tarot to me. Most Tarot practitioners will say that the cards do not reveal the future, because the future is not set in stone. So the argument that one could get hooked because of an ego/power trip seems unlikely.

If you want decent infos on tarot for real (pointless in my opinion) see if they have archives from alt.tarot from about 1991-1994.

Most Tarot dealers (lulz at practitioners) are probably just semi-well-meaning folk trying to squeeze an extra dime and are terrible at what they do.

Some are naturally good cold readers and could do the same thing they do with any set of objects which are loaded with some vague meaning for the person approaching them.

As far as the demonic stuff that might be brought up. I don't think God wastes much of his time on nonsense and neither does Satan. Tarot by its very definition is just silliness and probably doesn't require much help of any demonic force more powerful than the ones which possess those who write ad copy for a living.

Wait, ad copy writers are demons . . . what am I saying?

OK, more help than the demonic forces powerful enough to get someone to play Rock Band.
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« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2011, 06:56:52 PM »

So in your opinion there is nothing at all going on with Tarot? And you wouldn't equate it with the casting of lots either?
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« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2011, 06:58:59 PM »

Quiet, have mercy me on but I just can't resist:

Could the Tarot be seen as a modern form of casting lots?/quote]

IMHO.

NO.


Casting lots:
1) To:  The One God who Is (The Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit)
2) Is used to find a person who has sinned or a person (or group of people) who should be given responsibility, or whether or not a war should be fought.  There may be other examples in scripture, but for now I can't think of them.)
3) Prayer within the community under the leadership of the Church (Even in the Old Testament - under the direction of the High Priest) for the sake of the church / community
4) The answer of choosing lots (or The Urim and Tummim) is completely clear, totally simple. . .yes or no.  This one or that one.  Nothing more nothing less.  (Let your yes be yes and your no be no, anything more than this is from the evil one.")
5.)  Lots and The Urim and Tummim are based on one thing and one thing only OBEDIENCE TO THE ONE GOD.  

Tarot:
1) To - the cards (making the cards themselves an idol)
2) Used to for an individual of the results of the current pathway if nothing changes. (Used for 'premonition' so that one can control an event by making a guess of choices to change if an event if something isn't seen as favorable or will rise expectations if something or someone may have some favorable outcome.
3) Is usually centered on desires based on the worldly issues.  (Love interest, travel, business decisions, money, 'bad omens', 'good omens'.)
4. Scenerio of the cards is usually very complicated and can be 'read' and interpreted usually on the 'insight' of the reader.  The reader is usually in a semi trance of reading, opening themselves up to the 'cards' on a spiritual level.
5. The person reading or the person receiving the reading often get hooked into the readings because there is a false belief that knowing what comes next (or actually, BELIEVING what is coming if they do this or that) gives them a false lead of control.  Tarot reading is not about obeying the cards (the god of the cards) but about BEING a god with a tool that suggests we are able to control things with this so called 'knowledge'.  The same sin in the garden of eden.  

Runes:

Runes are much much older than the Tarot, but run with the same usage as the Tarot.  They are a bit less complicated, but the answers are still very complicated.  The results are the same.  The reader is the same.  The god is the ruins.  The need for control is the same.

IChing:  
This is the Book of Change - and you do not ask the coins or sticks or even the book a question - but there is a question.  A reader is not necessary as the book of change (IChing) already has the readings written according to the fall of the coins.  There is quite a bit of eastern wisdom that might be worth some study - but the result is the same as the Tarot and the Runes - seeking to control by having the inside info. . .and therefore gaining 'knowledge' to become godlike.  Studying the book WITHOUT the throwing the coin or sticks may be worth something - but the minute the coins are brought in, it becomes the same need to control tomorrow again.  

So, bottom line. . . I'll ask what the motive is. . . to help your church move forward or to help someone (or yourself) know what tomorrow will bring if you do this or that?  

Choose this day who you will serve. You cannot have two masters.  Serve life or serve death, that's the only question there really is.


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« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2011, 07:00:35 PM »

So in your opinion there is nothing at all going on with Tarot? And you wouldn't equate it with the casting of lots either?

I'm mainly goofing around and pointing out that tarot started out as a card game.

Quiet is obviously your woman on this one.
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« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2011, 07:05:09 PM »

Quiet, have mercy me on but I just can't resist:

Could the Tarot be seen as a modern form of casting lots?/quote]

IMHO.

NO.


Casting lots:
1) To:  The One God who Is (The Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit)
2) Is used to find a person who has sinned or a person (or group of people) who should be given responsibility, or whether or not a war should be fought.  There may be other examples in scripture, but for now I can't think of them.)
3) Prayer within the community under the leadership of the Church (Even in the Old Testament - under the direction of the High Priest) for the sake of the church / community
4) The answer of choosing lots (or The Urim and Tummim) is completely clear, totally simple. . .yes or no.  This one or that one.  Nothing more nothing less.  (Let your yes be yes and your no be no, anything more than this is from the evil one.")
5.)  Lots and The Urim and Tummim are based on one thing and one thing only OBEDIENCE TO THE ONE GOD.  

Tarot:
1) To - the cards (making the cards themselves an idol)
2) Used to for an individual of the results of the current pathway if nothing changes. (Used for 'premonition' so that one can control an event by making a guess of choices to change if an event if something isn't seen as favorable or will rise expectations if something or someone may have some favorable outcome.
3) Is usually centered on desires based on the worldly issues.  (Love interest, travel, business decisions, money, 'bad omens', 'good omens'.)
4. Scenerio of the cards is usually very complicated and can be 'read' and interpreted usually on the 'insight' of the reader.  The reader is usually in a semi trance of reading, opening themselves up to the 'cards' on a spiritual level.
5. The person reading or the person receiving the reading often get hooked into the readings because there is a false belief that knowing what comes next (or actually, BELIEVING what is coming if they do this or that) gives them a false lead of control.  Tarot reading is not about obeying the cards (the god of the cards) but about BEING a god with a tool that suggests we are able to control things with this so called 'knowledge'.  The same sin in the garden of eden.  

Runes:

Runes are much much older than the Tarot, but run with the same usage as the Tarot.  They are a bit less complicated, but the answers are still very complicated.  The results are the same.  The reader is the same.  The god is the ruins.  The need for control is the same.

IChing:  
This is the Book of Change - and you do not ask the coins or sticks or even the book a question - but there is a question.  A reader is not necessary as the book of change (IChing) already has the readings written according to the fall of the coins.  There is quite a bit of eastern wisdom that might be worth some study - but the result is the same as the Tarot and the Runes - seeking to control by having the inside info. . .and therefore gaining 'knowledge' to become godlike.  Studying the book WITHOUT the throwing the coin or sticks may be worth something - but the minute the coins are brought in, it becomes the same need to control tomorrow again.  

So, bottom line. . . I'll ask what the motive is. . . to help your church move forward or to help someone (or yourself) know what tomorrow will bring if you do this or that?  

Choose this day who you will serve. You cannot have two masters.  Serve life or serve death, that's the only question there really is.



**LAUGHING SO HARD TEARS ARE RUNNING**

Your covered, dude.

LOL
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 07:06:28 PM by quietmorning » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2011, 07:08:52 PM »

IMHO.

NO.

I don't think Tarot or IChing or Runes or any other kind of divination is the same as casting lots.   The whole concept of where the 'answer" comes from and HOW the answer comes is totally different from casting lots.  Totally different.

Could you elaborate? From what I understand there is no fixed idea of how runes/tarot etc works.

Casting lots:
1) To:  The One God who Is (The Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit)
2) Is used to find a person who has sinned or a person (or group of people) who should be given responsibility, or whether or not a war should be fought.  There may be other examples in scripture, but for now I can't think of them.)
3) Prayer within the community under the leadership of the Church (Even in the Old Testament - under the direction of the High Priest) for the sake of the church / community
4) The answer of choosing lots (or The Urim and Tummim) is completely clear, totally simple. . .yes or no.  This one or that one.  Nothing more nothing less.  ("Let your yes be yes and your no be no, anything more than this is from the evil one.")
5.)  Lots and The Urim and Tummim are based on one thing and one thing only OBEDIENCE TO THE ONE GOD.  

Tarot:
1) To - the cards (making the cards themselves an idol)
2) Used to for an individual of the results of the current pathway if nothing changes. (Used for 'premonition' so that one can control an event by making a guess of choices to change if an event if something isn't seen as favorable or will rise expectations if something or someone may have some favorable outcome.
3) Is usually centered on desires based on the worldly issues.  (Love interest, travel, business decisions, money, 'bad omens', 'good omens'.)
4. Scenerio of the cards is usually very complicated and can be 'read' and interpreted usually on the 'insight' of the reader.  The reader is usually in a semi trance of reading, opening themselves up to the 'cards' on a spiritual level.
5. The person reading or the person receiving the reading often get hooked into the readings because there is a false belief that knowing what comes next (or actually, BELIEVING what is coming if they do this or that) gives them a false lead of control.  Tarot reading is not about obeying the cards (the god of the cards) but about BEING a god with a tool that suggests we are able to control things with this so called 'knowledge'.  The same sin in the garden of eden.  

Runes:

Runes are much much older than the Tarot, but run with the same usage as the Tarot.  They are a bit less complicated, but the answers are still very complicated.  The results are the same.  The reader is the same.  The god is the ruins.  The need for control is the same.

IChing:  
This is the Book of Change - and you do not ask the coins or sticks or even the book a question - but there is a question.  A reader is not necessary as the book of change (IChing) already has the readings written according to the fall of the coins.  There is quite a bit of eastern wisdom that might be worth some study - but the result is the same as the Tarot and the Runes - seeking to control by having the inside info. . .and therefore gaining 'knowledge' to become godlike.  Studying the book WITHOUT the throwing the coin or sticks may be worth something - but the minute the coins are brought in, it becomes the same need to control tomorrow again.  

So, bottom line. . . I'll ask what the motive is. . . to help your church move forward or to help someone (or yourself) know what tomorrow will bring if you do this or that?  

Choose this day who you will serve. You cannot have two masters.  Serve life or serve death, that's the only question there really is.

You appear to be quite well-versed on this subject.
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« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2011, 07:10:15 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?
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« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2011, 07:14:16 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

Ahhh now we are getting somewhere . . .

Sin is never within the context of an individual, but the community. We are all involved. The OT speaks to the communal nature of sin over and over.

As far as using a coin flip to condemn me as an adulter, I usually would balk at hocus-pocus, but in this case I fear my odds would be better with the coin than with the truth.
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« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2011, 07:16:55 PM »

You appear to be quite well-versed on this subject.

Not sure how to take our statement.  Are you asking a question . . .?
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« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2011, 07:18:55 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

No, because finding the guilt was to save the whole of Israel.  It was for the sake of the whole that the lots were brought out so that the evil could be dealt with and purged from their midst and Israel as a whole, restored.  They were looking for the individual (or at times individuals) - to save the WHOLE. 
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« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2011, 07:19:51 PM »

You appear to be quite well-versed on this subject.

Not sure how to take our statement.  Are you asking a question . . .?

Just making an observation. But feel free to run with it, if you are so inclined.
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« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2011, 07:23:00 PM »

You appear to be quite well-versed on this subject.

Not sure how to take our statement.  Are you asking a question . . .?

I was hoping for torches and pitchforks and chants of "do not suffer a witch" myself.
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« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2011, 07:29:45 PM »

You appear to be quite well-versed on this subject.

Not sure how to take our statement.  Are you asking a question . . .?

I was hoping for torches and pitchforks and chants of "do not suffer a witch" myself.



Close enough?
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« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2011, 07:50:22 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

No, because finding the guilt was to save the whole of Israel.  It was for the sake of the whole that the lots were brought out so that the evil could be dealt with and purged from their midst and Israel as a whole, restored.  They were looking for the individual (or at times individuals) - to save the WHOLE. 
I'm sorry but this seems a little pie in the sky for me. If Sally was cheating on Bob, would not have toppled the Nation of Israel, or made the Temple crumble. And consulting the lots for this reason seems to be a mundane enough reason, just like reasons that people consult the Tarot, IMHO.
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« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2011, 08:01:50 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

No, because finding the guilt was to save the whole of Israel.  It was for the sake of the whole that the lots were brought out so that the evil could be dealt with and purged from their midst and Israel as a whole, restored.  They were looking for the individual (or at times individuals) - to save the WHOLE. 
I'm sorry but this seems a little pie in the sky for me. If Sally was cheating on Bob, would not have toppled the Nation of Israel, or made the Temple crumble. And consulting the lots for this reason seems to be a mundane enough reason, just like reasons that people consult the Tarot, IMHO.

But we believe that the sins of one person, even in private, affects the entire community. Perhaps this is a foreshadowing of that understanding, just like a multitude of other foreshadowings found in the Old Testament, which seem arbitrary on their face but point to an important truth.
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« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2011, 08:04:36 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

No, because finding the guilt was to save the whole of Israel.  It was for the sake of the whole that the lots were brought out so that the evil could be dealt with and purged from their midst and Israel as a whole, restored.  They were looking for the individual (or at times individuals) - to save the WHOLE.  
I'm sorry but this seems a little pie in the sky for me. If Sally was cheating on Bob, would not have toppled the Nation of Israel, or made the Temple crumble. And consulting the lots for this reason seems to be a mundane enough reason, just like reasons that people consult the Tarot, IMHO.

But we believe that the sins of one person, even in private, affects the entire community. Perhaps this is a foreshadowing of that understanding, just like a multitude of other foreshadowings found in the Old Testament, which seem arbitrary on their face but point to an important truth.

And I am just Achan to give him an example, but I'll let others chime in . . .
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« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2011, 08:07:05 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

No, because finding the guilt was to save the whole of Israel.  It was for the sake of the whole that the lots were brought out so that the evil could be dealt with and purged from their midst and Israel as a whole, restored.  They were looking for the individual (or at times individuals) - to save the WHOLE.  
I'm sorry but this seems a little pie in the sky for me. If Sally was cheating on Bob, would not have toppled the Nation of Israel, or made the Temple crumble. And consulting the lots for this reason seems to be a mundane enough reason, just like reasons that people consult the Tarot, IMHO.

I'm sure it does - and yes, we probably wouldn't (according to blaring perception) - but His ways are higher than our ways.  We tend to look at ourselves as individuals - but we really aren't - humanity is very very organically connected.  We truly are not individuals but a conglomeration of cells moving and living together in one 'body'.  Just go to the grocery store and look around. . .when was the last time you went hunting?  Or when did you plant a crop?  Or who did either your or someone else you care about's surgery?  We're not islands.  We never were.  

As much as I'd like to say that your sin does not effect me, it does.  As much as I'd REALLY like to say that MY sin does not effect YOU - or anyone else, for that matter, it does.  . . . the butterfly effect in some cases. . .an avalanche in others.  Destructive cultural changes happen very slowly, very slightly a little at a time until the whole culture is corrupt, like yeast in bread. (The Lord's example, not mine.)

The people around me?  How are they effected by my sin?  The immediacy becomes much more pronounced.  

This was a new nation forming, a brand new baby - growing into a toddler, then a youngster, then a teen. . .and we all know how impressionable children are.  What happened?  They followed after other gods and did pretty much as they saw fit ignoring His laws and statutes . . .His mercy, His justice, His WAY. . .and when the door opened for them to step through?  The didn't recognize it, they didn't recognize HIM. . .because that little bit of yeast effected the whole.  

Social / cultural nuances are very very intoxicating to societies.  They change the whole.  Every single thing I do has an effect on my community, on my church, on the people I love.  It's when I get hardened into thinking that my actions don't mean anything to anyone and I can get away with murder that society is harmed, because then I compromise and murder.  

Let's go back to the cheating thing. . . this effects the children, the spouse, the neighbors, the parents, the friends, the employers, can influence or cause an effect on the cost of medical insurance. . .and affair doesn't hurt anyone?  It's not a victim-less crime. . . it hurts MANY people. Could it have toppled Israel?  Well, ask King David.  He had an affair - and it ended up splitting Israel in two due to the lack of respect and the results his children held for him due to THIS action. So. . yeah. . .go from there.
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« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2011, 08:36:44 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

No, because finding the guilt was to save the whole of Israel.  It was for the sake of the whole that the lots were brought out so that the evil could be dealt with and purged from their midst and Israel as a whole, restored.  They were looking for the individual (or at times individuals) - to save the WHOLE.  
I'm sorry but this seems a little pie in the sky for me. If Sally was cheating on Bob, would not have toppled the Nation of Israel, or made the Temple crumble. And consulting the lots for this reason seems to be a mundane enough reason, just like reasons that people consult the Tarot, IMHO.

But we believe that the sins of one person, even in private, affects the entire community. Perhaps this is a foreshadowing of that understanding, just like a multitude of other foreshadowings found in the Old Testament, which seem arbitrary on their face but point to an important truth.

And I am just Achan to give him an example, but I'll let others chime in . . .

ROFL

David and Bathsheeba had a pretty ruinous effect on Israel (though David's repentance blunted the worst of it).  Solomon's idolatry led to the division of the kingdom.  True, these were both kings, but kings kind of show us what the prevailing attitudes of the kingdom are at a given time (at least that's how I view the back and forth of the Judaic dynasty in the Old Testament).  How about the sons of Eli, or even Aaron for that matter?

As to the OP- I think what it basically boils down to is on the one hand you have people consulting the priests and prophets to find out what they should do in a situation, while on the other hand they consult mediums to find out what will happen
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« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2011, 08:47:44 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

No, because finding the guilt was to save the whole of Israel.  It was for the sake of the whole that the lots were brought out so that the evil could be dealt with and purged from their midst and Israel as a whole, restored.  They were looking for the individual (or at times individuals) - to save the WHOLE.  
I'm sorry but this seems a little pie in the sky for me. If Sally was cheating on Bob, would not have toppled the Nation of Israel, or made the Temple crumble. And consulting the lots for this reason seems to be a mundane enough reason, just like reasons that people consult the Tarot, IMHO.

But we believe that the sins of one person, even in private, affects the entire community. Perhaps this is a foreshadowing of that understanding, just like a multitude of other foreshadowings found in the Old Testament, which seem arbitrary on their face but point to an important truth.

And I am just Achan to give him an example, but I'll let others chime in . . .

ROFL 

Glad I got love from someone for that corny bit.

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« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2011, 08:49:55 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

No, because finding the guilt was to save the whole of Israel.  It was for the sake of the whole that the lots were brought out so that the evil could be dealt with and purged from their midst and Israel as a whole, restored.  They were looking for the individual (or at times individuals) - to save the WHOLE.  
I'm sorry but this seems a little pie in the sky for me. If Sally was cheating on Bob, would not have toppled the Nation of Israel, or made the Temple crumble. And consulting the lots for this reason seems to be a mundane enough reason, just like reasons that people consult the Tarot, IMHO.

But we believe that the sins of one person, even in private, affects the entire community. Perhaps this is a foreshadowing of that understanding, just like a multitude of other foreshadowings found in the Old Testament, which seem arbitrary on their face but point to an important truth.

And I am just Achan to give him an example, but I'll let others chime in . . .

ROFL 

Glad I got love from someone for that corny bit.



**chuckles** Heh. . .I thought you were serious and was waiting for you to .. . go there. . .lol.
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« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2011, 09:00:30 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

No, because finding the guilt was to save the whole of Israel.  It was for the sake of the whole that the lots were brought out so that the evil could be dealt with and purged from their midst and Israel as a whole, restored.  They were looking for the individual (or at times individuals) - to save the WHOLE.  
I'm sorry but this seems a little pie in the sky for me. If Sally was cheating on Bob, would not have toppled the Nation of Israel, or made the Temple crumble. And consulting the lots for this reason seems to be a mundane enough reason, just like reasons that people consult the Tarot, IMHO.

But we believe that the sins of one person, even in private, affects the entire community. Perhaps this is a foreshadowing of that understanding, just like a multitude of other foreshadowings found in the Old Testament, which seem arbitrary on their face but point to an important truth.

And I am just Achan to give him an example, but I'll let others chime in . . .

ROFL 

Glad I got love from someone for that corny bit.



**chuckles** Heh. . .I thought you were serious and was waiting for you to .. . go there. . .lol.

Got it right away.  "Achan" ain't just how you feel after the first stone hits.
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« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2011, 09:02:30 PM »

Thanks Quietmorning, I have learned a lot. But when lots were used to determine guilt, let's say, in a case of adultery, wouldn't this be an example of an individual use of the lots?

No, because finding the guilt was to save the whole of Israel.  It was for the sake of the whole that the lots were brought out so that the evil could be dealt with and purged from their midst and Israel as a whole, restored.  They were looking for the individual (or at times individuals) - to save the WHOLE.  
I'm sorry but this seems a little pie in the sky for me. If Sally was cheating on Bob, would not have toppled the Nation of Israel, or made the Temple crumble. And consulting the lots for this reason seems to be a mundane enough reason, just like reasons that people consult the Tarot, IMHO.

But we believe that the sins of one person, even in private, affects the entire community. Perhaps this is a foreshadowing of that understanding, just like a multitude of other foreshadowings found in the Old Testament, which seem arbitrary on their face but point to an important truth.

And I am just Achan to give him an example, but I'll let others chime in . . .

ROFL 

Glad I got love from someone for that corny bit.



**chuckles** Heh. . .I thought you were serious and was waiting for you to .. . go there. . .lol.

Got it right away.  "Achan" ain't just how you feel after the first stone hits.

**laughing**

**shakes head**

I'd groan too. . .but. . .um. . .it's just too cute.  **chuckles**
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« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2011, 09:28:15 PM »

I stand corrected regarding community and how sin has an effect. If I may tie into that thought, if an individual learns something from Tarot, and that helps them, their children, their community, etc., how then is this not to be compared to casting lots?
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« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2011, 09:44:07 PM »

I stand corrected regarding community and how sin has an effect. If I may tie into that thought, if an individual learns something from Tarot, and that helps them, their children, their community, etc., how then is this not to be compared to casting lots?

Really I know a lot of people go loony over tarot. But as I said above the only decent stuff comes from a good cold reader. It ends up being lay psychology.

They are either really go at figuring you out or they are just nebulous for you to fill in the details.

Most folks like the latter it causes less pain.

Try it out. It has an interesting history. And it can't be more demonic than 99% of TV, radio, internet, etc.

Sounds like you either had an experience you are trying to come to terms with or want to give tarot a crack.

Frankly. Let me buy you a beer or 12 and I will do a better job.

And it is argued whether casting lots is Christian at all. Folks cite choosing the 2nd 12th, but some apologetics say they did this out if impatience for waiting for the Holy Spirit to descend up on them.

If you win the lottery or something, remember me.
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« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2011, 09:54:25 PM »

I have been accused over the years on this forum of being a secret Catholic, wanting to wear a cilice, and now apparently of being a secret tarot reader. Why, when I ask questions based on the logic of others am I consistently labeled?
By the way, if you live anywhere close to me orthonorm, I'd love to have a beer with you.
Anyone care to take a crack at this:
Quote
I stand corrected regarding community and how sin has an effect. If I may tie into that thought, if an individual learns something from Tarot, and that helps them, their children, their community, etc., how then is this not to be compared to casting lots?
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« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2011, 09:56:54 PM »

I have been accused over the years on this forum of being a secret Catholic, wanting to wear a cilice, and now apparently of being a secret tarot reader. Why, when I ask questions based on the logic of others am I consistently labeled?
By the way, if you live anywhere close to me orthonorm, I'd love to have a beer with you.
Anyone care to take a crack at this:
Quote
I stand corrected regarding community and how sin has an effect. If I may tie into that thought, if an individual learns something from Tarot, and that helps them, their children, their community, etc., how then is this not to be compared to casting lots?

I must be a bad cold reader over the internet.

Touchy? How are you during Lent? Wink
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« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2011, 10:05:03 PM »

Quote
Touchy? How are you during Lent?
I knew you would say that, because I read the cards...
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« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2011, 10:06:21 PM »

I have been accused over the years on this forum of being a secret Catholic, wanting to wear a cilice, and now apparently of being a secret tarot reader. Why, when I ask questions based on the logic of others am I consistently labeled?
By the way, if you live anywhere close to me orthonorm, I'd love to have a beer with you.
Anyone care to take a crack at this:
Quote
I stand corrected regarding community and how sin has an effect. If I may tie into that thought, if an individual learns something from Tarot, and that helps them, their children, their community, etc., how then is this not to be compared to casting lots?

I must be a bad cold reader over the internet.

Touchy? How are you during Lent? Wink


What part of the world are you in?
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« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2011, 10:29:35 PM »

I have been accused over the years on this forum of being a secret Catholic, wanting to wear a cilice, and now apparently of being a secret tarot reader. Why, when I ask questions based on the logic of others am I consistently labeled?
By the way, if you live anywhere close to me orthonorm, I'd love to have a beer with you.
Anyone care to take a crack at this:
Quote
I stand corrected regarding community and how sin has an effect. If I may tie into that thought, if an individual learns something from Tarot, and that helps them, their children, their community, etc., how then is this not to be compared to casting lots?


That would be one point - in that perspective as far as the pure form of community is concerned - but lots was specific to the community of God. . .not just any community.  

Also, there is a deception in looking at information gained by seeking out the answers to something from another source - on an individual manner. . .in lots were used in the realm of witnesses.  When you seek the Tarot, do you take your family, your community, etc with you and have them there to witness the reading?  It's very easy to say it's for the community, but when you strip it down, it is still individualized because it is the person seeking from THEIR motives of need for control.

And it's that need for control. . .that is not submitting to the obedience of God.  

What if you (or the person seeking the reading) took every word that came out of the reader's mouth as GOD GIVEN?  This is what you must do - here and here and here. . .and this is what WILL happen. . .

would you be inclined to obey anything of what is said?  

Could you obey what is said?  Or is it just . . . insight?  

This is a huge difference. . .the lots were for direction in order to OBEY GOD. The tarot is for insight to make choices. . .not anything to do with obedience. . .to anyone, really.  And the insight?  

And when you receive the reading is it a simple 'yes' or 'no' or is it a path going through this and that and the other thing. . .that represents the likeness of things that COULD BE this or that. . .or anything else you decide to interpret it as and attach it to?

Then there's the WHO.  Who are you asking?  

If you or anyone else takes God completely out of the equation, then yes, there's no difference.  Because the lots are just going by chance just like anything else.  And I don't know that I would want to trust my children, my husband, my loved ones to . . . changing anything about my life . . .over something so precarious.  

But if God is in the equation?  Then the Lots are God controlled, God written, God stated. . . under God's chosen leadership and covering. . .and the Tarot?  Who knows.  Then I have to ask myself, am I going to risk my family, my friends, my soul, my life to something (the 'who knows') that will very quietly very subtly tear myself away from my God and poison my family with subtle assumptions of fantastical . . . very questionable truths?  How much to I really love those in my life?  

If God is in the equation, then He set precedents and statues concerning this thing for a reason.  Test the fruits.  The fruits of the Spirit are patience, love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.  Do the cards tell you something that causes anxiety?  fear? impurity?  Who are you asking?  Is this leading you to idolatry?  witchcraft? (I think a better understood word(s) here would be manipulation and or control seeking by manipulating events and others).  And what of the supposed 'problem areas that may come up?  hostility? bitter conflicts? jealousy? outbursts of anger?  lack of unity? dissensions? envying? Have to do another lay in order to 'make sure'?  Or what about a card that comes up that suggests that unfaithfulness is in your life?  What then?  Do you trust it?  

Or do you trust God?  Knowing that all things work together for good for those who love Him and are called according to their purpose?

Choices . . . always comes down to doing what we are told not to do for good reasons or doing what we want to do . . .for seemingly good reasons.  Divination is forbidden. . . and while lots can be lumped in the same category by most who do not want to see the truth, it's truly another form of prophecy just as dreams and visions are.  Lots, if done according to precept is another pen in His hand to communicate, to His people, direction.

So it's a choice between life and death. . .and it's always down to these two choices.  Choose to live, and live abundantly for those who choose to trust Him and what He has put forth as true --  or choose death and die eternally, for anyone that chooses to rationalize away from the truth.

(ps, 'you' is written to be understood as general anybody)
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« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2011, 10:38:27 PM »

Prophecy above being defined as God speaking to man, not future fortelling.
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« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2011, 11:11:32 PM »

I thank you for all the time and effort you have put into your responses quietmorning! I was wondering about this:
Quote
It's very easy to say it's for the community, but when you strip it down, it is still individualized because it is the person seeking from THEIR motives of need for control.
I was under the impression that the Tarot gave insights to help people make better choices in the future. Not actually predict the future. Am I incorrect?
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« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2011, 11:20:29 PM »

Whether or not Tarot cards do anything, it seems the intention to use them is not well guided. But if you don't believe me, please ask your priest.
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« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2011, 11:26:42 PM »

Whether or not Tarot cards do anything, it seems the intention to use them is not well guided. But if you don't believe me, please ask your priest.
Could you please point to a post of mine that said I was going to use Tarot cards?
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« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2011, 11:35:28 PM »

Previous discussion: "Is it a sin to flip a coin?"
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9205.0.html
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« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2011, 11:54:02 PM »

I thank you for all the time and effort you have put into your responses quietmorning! I was wondering about this:
Quote
It's very easy to say it's for the community, but when you strip it down, it is still individualized because it is the person seeking from THEIR motives of need for control.
I was under the impression that the Tarot gave insights to help people make better choices in the future. Not actually predict the future. Am I incorrect?

Does it honestly make a difference?  

But let's unpack that and strip it down for a moment. . .what does the last card in the spread tell you?  Isn't it the result of all the other cards if you stay on the path?  And isn't there a future event card opposite (depending on the spread) of the past event card?  

What the person is left with is - 'this is these events that have an effect on your question, and these are those events that have an effect on your question - and if you keep going on the same path you are on with these events, THIS (the last card) is where it will lead.  

So what then?  What do you do next?  If you truly live a full life each of those events has a hundred million scenarios with real people . . .are you going to control each of those people and chose . . .which event?  And if you can control each of those people and chose the RIGHT event to change, what are you going to change it to?  

Heh. . .go watch the movie The Butterfly Effect - it makes for a very very good point.  

So in effect, this thing that is supposed to be so helpful. . .is giving you a very unclear path going to a very precarious place . . .so that you can help those you care about . . .to do . . what?  What would you change the event TO?  And would it be good for every single person involved if you really truly had THAT MUCH power to effect your LAST CARD?  

Who are we to say what's good or what isn't for another person that our lives touch?  Or even for ourselves?  Only God knows all things.
How do we take what we are doing today - especially if it is God's hands, and walk away from it because a deck of cards suggests that this happening will lead me to this or that event?  Or refuse to let it go because of that last card?  There are so many things in my life that what happened 'today' fifteen years later saved my life.  THAT is God.    

There is our own wish to control . . .and make things better and prevent pain, and not see our loved one's suffer any harm, ill or tragedy. . . or for ourselves to keep from living through tragedy. . .so we try to fix it, and keep it from happening.  

But that very tragedy is what hones us and strengthens us and purges us from things that are killing us eternally.  So. . .would we be tricked out of it?  To what. . .

Those very hard difficult things is where faith is born and miracles happen.  I can try to control what I think I can control, or I will live every moment knowing that He is with me and be satisfied with that moment - and watch my life and others become something gleaming and pure and miraculous through Him who takes that trust even through the worst possible events . . .for His Glory.  That is HIS RIGHT. . .He bought that right with HIS LIFE.

Or I could not trust every moment to Him how made me with His own hands . . .and knows every moment of my life since HE WROTE IT HIMSELF. . .

and die.  

Because we never allowed Him to help us. . .truly help us. . .because we didn't trust Him.  Truly trust Him. . . in the good, in the bad, in the hard, in the easy, in the painful, in the joy. . . in every situation He could possibly use to bring us to Glory and then take us from Glory to Glory.  It's the hard narrow road, not the easy wide one.  

Now lets go back to the thought that "the Tarot gave insights to help people make better choices in the future". . . going back to the question of who. . .do you really want to serve another god?  Can a deck of cards really do one thing to help you?  And if they are better choices, and those better choices aren't from the One God, but from a deck of cards, doesn't it stand to reason that the choices are actually either of your own making given the possible scenarios the cards 'suggest'?  (and in that case, then it goes back to being self serving instead of God serving).  Why would anyone risk their families or their own lives on a deck of cards?  On suggestions that pull up puzzles you have to solve. . .and by this time, do you really think God would listen to you who is refusing to listen to Him?  

And is choosing to listen to a deck of cards, instead?  

Thank goodness He is forgiving. . .and all merciful. . .but why test Him?  

PFNicholas, you are quite welcome. . . Smiley

You're worth every bit of His mercy and grace you can possibly receive. . . Smiley I hope, in His mercy, this has been helpful, and I REALLY hope that this is more Him than me. . .because I tend to mess things up pretty good.  If you were helped, then it was from Him. . .and if you were harmed, please place the issues squarely in my lap.

In Christ, forever.



« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 11:54:59 PM by quietmorning » Logged

In His Mercy,
BethAnna
Tags: Tarot Casting lots Divination  
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